Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
the math also tells us that the tesla is useless with regard to one of your key criteria. Seems like you are buying one for something other than functionality reasons, which does sound sort of fun, but also may be likely to induce a huge case of BUYERS REMORSE! Seems to me that your functional-criteria leave only one option for an electric car: the Chevy Volt. So you can buy one now at ~half or ~1/3 the cost of a tesla. Or you can wait and buy similar technology from another manufacturer in a few years after all the other electric car manufacturers adopt the Volt design in order to get "infinite range" USA consumers like us demand!
Ampere/Volt is the only real "alternative" car that really gets me excited, aside from diesels. I wish I could get excited about the tesla or any electric car with no ability to charge itself via petroleum fuel. Seeing a couple Fiskers on local roads did get me "interested" at least. Nifty styling on those. I don't think I've seen a single tesla locally here in new england. And zero Cayenne Diesels so far..
On any given snap shot/ sample (in my case 10/10 times), the majority of the time I can neither find it (the unicorn AVERAGE PRICE) , nor prices that comes UNDER it. Indeed I wish I could pay the AVERAGE price and let the folks who use that as the justification: "....well its aint so BAD", pay the difference.
So my corner store price @ RUG $ 4.63 /PUG $4.83/ ULSD $4.39 (3.3% MORE)
The dropping of the (diesel) tax differential would put that @ $4.29 cents for ULSD. STILL more !? Oh well I did say 10/10 times didn't I, and there are times when I am given to flights of fancy :sick:
The Base Tesla range is roughly 140 miles, if you have a commute that is roughly 100 miles, then the Tesla my not be for you. But if your work has charging stations then allowing your car to charge for the time at work would allow you extra miles to run an errand or two.
From reading peoples posting, it appears that most of you are highly educated, but you all continue to beat the dead horse. Why are gas prices and diesel do high? Why are oil companies making record profits? If more oil is being found in the US, then the "shipping" cost can't be as high as it is being shipped half way around the world. Production cost can't be the reason. could be because of free enterprise, could it be people will pay regardless of how high it becomes??
seems like the expired-horse you mention continues to rejuvenate/reanimate/respawn every time fuel prices rise:
because as fuel prices increase, the cost savings with diesel also increase.
so my thoughts lately are parallel to gagrice's even though i drive a meager 30k miles per year lately... "woulda/could/shoulda bought a diesel",
arithmetically i do grant 34 mpg with gas-powered chevy cruze is actually "good enough mpg". so there's no really compelling reason to go diesel at this time for myself... unless you count psychology/consumerism.
My point about diesel was more availability along with close to double the miles in a gallon. Every crisis, it is gas that is in short supply and most times diesel is readily available.
The good news is that price of a barrel of oil is falling AND a LOT !!! :surprise: :shades:
Side bar: In the all is well cruising at 40,000 feet scale of things, peel me a grape and let the games begin, while Rome is burning,.... a nit.
HOWEVER and
Indeed, I (quoted) got that cost from a CBS 60 mins program hosted by Leslie Stahl. It was quoted from the (then) current CEO of ARAMCO (turn SA Oil Minister) for the cost of a (ONE AND) BRAND new logistical costs from quite possibly the BIGGEST processing facilities and JUST (2008) built in Saudi Arabia today !!!
In the course of the conversation, it was mentioned that this (nit) processing capacity has been KNOWN ( to ARAMCO?) INXS of 45 years (biblical generation is 40 years) !!!! It was just (said more sophisticatedly) out in the boonies (implied: insignificant and a PITA to bring online) !!???
So in the 60 mins program's quest to make the size and scale of this find and logistical systems more real and graphic to its American audience, (the relative costs ( LESS than $2.00) to process a barrel of oil) it BEGS the question of how much cheaper than $2.00 cost to process it was/is/ remains for the logistical process for older more established sources !!!!!!! ??????
The scale and scope literally is STAGGERING and boggles the mind.
Fuel Bloomberg Spot Prices
Even using these superlatives, just their JIT inventory management assets (like the crude oil storage tanks) are literally the BIGGEST in the world and for a relatively insignificant oil assets !!!!!!
CBS
because as fuel prices increase, the cost savings with diesel also increase. "...
Indeed one reason is the same circular incorrect and at times illogical reasoning that keeps 95% of the population buying gassers is still in operation.
But like I have maintained, why should someone consume less when they can consume more AND pay more for the effort !? :shades: Free choice really keeps the world spinning !! (figuratively)
So really I am fine with attitudes like: " I won't buy a diesel because diesel fuel is 10 cents to xxx a gal more." If folks dont want to do or believe the math (cost per mile drive fuel) I am also fine with that.
So really, I have not much interest in seeing the % of diesel cars increase from gassers. I do however bemoan the lack of choice and options. The answer is really quite simple enough. Let the government stop administering every aspect of life. If I want a diesel car I should be able to get it in the US. They do already meet European standards !!
The emphasis on more units and percentages is really just a vague attempt at indulging in the entertainment fantasy of lowering the cost of ownership and free markets.
Yes, at about $38k vs $53k it's $15k cheaper than the base Tesla, which, last time I checked is 28.3% less, not 1/2 as much, professor. But so the hell what? A Chevy Cruze is 70% less than a BMW 535. That's essentially the class of cars you are trying to compare. Cranking up the Tesla to the 85 kw performance edition puts it into Panamera Turbo territory in performance. You are trying to compare apples and orange Cointreau
I wish GM well with the Volt and hope they can stop the hemmoraging of financial losses. But they are going to have to do it without my help. If you want to pitch in, be my guest.
The Fed needs app 54 per share to break even. Accordingly ( to when the article was written) GM stock is @ app $25. :lemon: :sick:
I am sure that those in the position to know probably knew that it took Toyota a LONG time to recover from the sunk, development, starting R & D and operating costs of the Prius HYBRID.
$40,000 for a Volt plus power installation costs and still a money losing proposition ?????? Indeed GM might have been FORCED into selling the ( Cruze- passenger car diesel) TDI. Simply, VW, et al. has demonstrated and for more than a few years that selling diesel CARS are PROFITABLE. Imagine that! What a concept ! They certainly know this from the so called" LIGHT" truck turbo diesel markets despite getting even get special dispensation for emissions for this segment.
It is also apparent that the lessons of the electrical power outage was lost on the enviro cons advocating massive dependence on ELECTRICAL power, which caused the current fuel price debacle. .
http://www.autoguide.com/manufacturer/honda/2014-honda-accord-plugin-hybrid-revi- ew-2209.html
If you have the money to buy a Tesla or Fisker, it is purely a look at me purchase. Has nothing to do with saving the environment. Will Tesla survive?
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/09/Tesla-has-to-repay-- US-loan-faster-as-production-lags-70001189/tesla-federal-loan-model-s/70001189/1- #.UHIUW67Wqh0
..."Brown's order will allow retailers to begin selling winter-blend gasoline, which is more plentiful and easier to make but emits more polluting vapors, ahead of the traditional October 31 transition date."...
It would appear the article CLEARLY is saying 10-15% ethanol fuel is even dirtier than the 30 to 90 ppm sulfur NON winter fuel !!! It even gets way less mpg than the "CLEANER" stuff. :mad:
link title
Another is Senator Diane Feinstein evidently did not get the Obama party line FYI about the goal of European fuel pricing in the US ($ 10.00 US per gal) , it being less than $5.00 per gal
..."Feinstein noted that California commuters already faced the highest gas prices and the longest commutes in the country.
"Paying hundreds of dollars to fill your tank every time you go to the pump is untenable, particularly because it does not appear the price spike and supply disruption are in any way related to supply and demand," she added."...
When you put it together with the SA oil minister's 60 mins interview, a bit concerned about a MINUS 1 M barrels of US oil less consumption, you got to say that Obama's goal of ever rising fuel prices seems to work @ less than 5 per gal from 1.85 during the last part of the BUSH administration. Here's to 4 more years for $10.00 per gal fuel ?????????? This is proof positive Obama does NOT want to tax the 47%? :sick: :lemon:
If the price drops in the next couple days, those that panicked will be mad at themselves. I am waiting till RUG is back to $3.95, the price when I last filled up.
When will the EPA slap CARB around and standardize fuel for the whole USA. It is ridiculous that CA has their own designer blends of gas. Maybe this fiasco will get the legislators to make some noise.
Not that I think the medias coverage is misleading, but I think it is interesting to note that not only is the so called "winter fuel" dirtier, it has less energy content. This of course directly and indirectly leads to even worse fuel economy (up to MINUS-20%). So again if one does the cost per mile driven: FUEL calculation, which is the most likely to occur, less or MORE cost?? Additionally it (that portion)is burnt unmitigated. Emissions controls are not designed to control/mitigate ethanol emissions. I guess on the high seas of misdirection, we all forgot to note that this fuel normally costs more !! So with a more logical look at things if fuel is 10 to 15 cents cheaper and gets up to 20% less mpg, well I guess the powers that be are hoping we all DO NOT do the math.
Again the governor has gone on record as saying he was directing its "earlier" used due to it being "CHEAPER".
Instead of a 50/50 diesel/gasoline mix, more better to have LNG, propane, plug-in, compressed air, and biogas options, not to mention continuing to research fuel cells and hydrogen and making mass transit work.
The long term solution is EV with an electric generating system based primarily upon nuclear (with hydro and wind where it makes sense) such that we aren't burning any fossil fuel to generate electricity.
It has literally taken 30+ years to get 5% diesels with 50% being so called light but really LARGE trucks (down from 75%) It is still being fought against tooth and nail (well economically, legislatively and regulatorially, anyway)
Hybrids (Prius et all) still rely on boutique fuels. Hybrids offer 20% advantage. Diesels offer 30 to 50% advantages. Hybrids make LESS economic sense if you look at the math. It is hard to cut dependence on RUG to PUG if you still use RUG to PUG. This should be more than obvious. Then to elevate it to boutique status is just plain DUMB.
Not to burst the bubble but did ALL those southern SO CA VOLT/Tesla owners causee the grid to go down? Were they able to get power when the power went out !!?? I didnt know they were such MASSIVE USERS ?? Zukes alive what will they have to do with the grid when 2013 MY Volts come out?
So if the electrical power is out how much plug in juice can you get? To boot the electrical cost per mile driven is still higher than RUG/PUG.
At the risk of repeating myself when you exceed percentages of electrical baseline consumption, you are penalized. My penalty is @ .296 cents. This is not including enormous tax percentages. In addition the highway fund has not fully figured out how to get the same taxations that RUG/PUG fuels drop into the coffers, so you can expect the plug in sources to go up over up already. If I add a plug in, I start off @ 296 cents per KWH, not to mention taking 6 to 10 hours of down time.
I had some time to talk to a PGE responder (recently .... circa 2012) and casually asked him what fueled his company vehicle used to get to my location. He didn't hesitate: RUG. End of discussion. What did you all expect me to do, do a Hare Krishna on hare krishna? :sick:
If 95% of us were driving diesel passenger cars, a refinery meltdown will still result in a price shock.
I don't think EV will be practical any sooner than Hydrogen. Hydrogen at this time is made from Natural Gas. Most is used to make fertilizer for, you guessed it. Growing corn for ethanol. What a mess the greenies have made.
Hydro electric is going away as dams cause more problems than they solve. I like Nukes. But most people do not. Wind and solar have serious issues. CA has expanded their electric generation to mostly Natural Gas.
Funny and tragic how the EPA et al were able to put CA fuel in "BOUTIQUE STATUS" (aka monolithic specialty product with no alternative refinery sources) and are now flat footed when no one else (the other 49 states refinery capacities) can be an alternative vendor.
Senator Feinstein is calling for the authorities to "round up the usual suspects" to use a quote from an old Bogart movie. Casablanca Claude Rains
But perhaps more on nexus is the 59 sec to 1:22 min of 8:01
link title
All just MHO of course.
Even though this sounds weird, no one is willing to allow opening new state of the art refineries. To wit there has not been a new US refinery built in over 35 years, almost one biblical generation. On the flip side, most to all are relieved when one is closed.
Chevron (Benecia/Martinez, CA) the one that just had that fire and malfunction not too many years ago got enjoined from making a $ 2 B upgrade to the same facility they now say is ... problematic. So then when something "breaks down" or wears out, everybody wants to go through the standard hand wringing procedures, with predictable results, aka nothing to cover up.
The petroleum-engine-charges-batteries approach will supplant the obsolete electric-only design of the limited-range electrics such as Tesla. If you buy an all-electric tesla or fisker, it should be an obsolete/collector car within 5 years, eh? :shades: (Think of it as a good thing, like a delorean.)
Diesels run especially super efficiently at certain/low rpms, eh? What if a Volt-like electric car were available with diesel engine instead of gas...
Seems like it might be overkill efficiency but it sure would be fun to try a VOLT DIESEL . Sign me up on the waiting/interest list for one.
It is not something that we as consumers have a lot of power over, except to keep buying more efficient cars when we buy a new one ( but nobody should be buying a new car just for. Fuel efficency if they can't afford it). And even then that just lessens the blow of high fuel prices not erase it, and of course the prices go up when we use less ( just like water rates in cities, the prices go up as you use less since the fixed costs are the same and need to be paid regardless, same with electricity etc, the consumer never sees the full benefits of the conservation).
Silicon Valley is replete with examples (industrial, etc. sites). Indeed the whole place is example after example after example. Most to all of the area used to be orchards and farmlands. Part of the reason for CA being called the land of fruits and nuts is not for sexual preferences and mental disorders.
SIDEBAR: ironically, there is a (HUGE) silicon valley company (most would recognized the name) that actually took over the "sprawling" facility that actually used to BE a mental facility!
The area even has (now going defunct) salt ponds (started as Leslie, now Cargil?) , aka the phase SALT of the earth is a morph on salt mines and ponds. Not too long ago if you had a freezer or just like to pick out sides of beef, you could literally go down to a local (silicon valley) slaughter house and get the order fulfilled. Longer story here but I think all get the drift.
Probably more on nexus with passenger cars is a recently closed passenger car and light (really light truck) aka NUMMI factory. They (Toyota side) actually made cars and trucks that were actually CONSUMED in CA. Some folks might have heard of the Toyota Corolla, Tacoma, etc ? If you listened to the auto unions, working there was literally almost like working for a Biden slave factory or coming over in a New Englander slave ship. (yes a bit of election hyperbole) Funny what happens when Toyota and GM decides to close the place down for not only was it not profitable everybody was trying to literally regulate it to death. When it actually died, they were literally all panicked and surprised that it actually did die.
So interestingly enough with RUG @ 4.63 from the less than $1.85 when the current administration took off, the price of fuel as gone up 150% in almost 4 years, UP almost 38% per year !!! That is actually a pretty good job at getting the prices UP !!!! It is especially good in light of the the drop off in fuel consumption. Even Saudi Arabia is concerned. But in truth it is almost a no brainer. To get the fuel prices even higher all they need do is to close another (marginally profitable) refinery. I bet they are hard at work, making it so ? :sick: :shades: :lemon: After all, the Obama stated goal always has been European fuel pricing ($10.00 US per gal)
Now I do not find $10.00 gas really freaky. No, I am not George Clooney Beyonce or JayZ, etc. (for a .037 cent per mile driven cost) , all we need are cars that get 270 miles per gal !!
Sidebar: why .037 cents per mile driven? At the start of the current admin diesel fuel was 1.85 per gal. With a 50 mpg 2003 Jetta TDI that = .037 cents per mile driven. And you thought I was being unreasonable? :surprise: :shades:
lol, perfect. And Ellison running the place now fits too.
And expanding. Just bought the whole Island of Lanai.
Actually they have done that to perfection in Yosemite ! It is just that those mice have Hunta Virus.
Not that anybody cares, I say let em eat a bakers dozen or so
Look MA, anybody can be an urban enviro con.
It might foster some understanding why ranchers or farmers with livestock tend to be a bit upset when wolves are reintroduced by those same type enviro cons.
a diesel.
Prices in TX are likely going up now:
Fire hits diesel hydrotreater at Exxon Baytown refinery (Reuters)
"A hydrotreater is not a main production unit at a refinery. The loss of a diesel hydrotreater could lead to reduced diesel production, but would not impact wide-scale plant operations."
New Yorkers petrified as hundreds of 'hissing' raccoons invade the city
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2214703/New-Yorkers-petrified-hundreds-h- - issing-raccoons-invade-city.html
It is what it is. The only thing the government owes me is accountability; anything else is cake.
I bought my heating oil for the winter back in July and paid $3.53/gallon for 750 gallons.
Perhaps not so funny, raccoons carry and transmit RABIES.
A coincidence? WiKi says WOLVES and BOBCATS are natural predators of .... raccoons !!!! :surprise:
Were it in the cards, I would go for the 85kW unit. Better fun factor, MUCH better range. If the Supercharger vision comes to fruition, one might even be able to take it on (well-planned!) trips.
If we had issues with moose around here like Steve's area has with deer, I'd have my bow hanging next to the front door and a 25 cu ft chest freezer in the garage. You know, just in case.
The new Mazda 6 wagon should be something you would like. IF it ever gets to our 3rd World Corn Republic:
The SKYACTIV-D 2.2 diesel engine is available in either Standard Power or High Power versions. Both engine types comply with Europe's Euro 6 emissions standards.
OK, I'm not going to go Animal Channel on you, but try not to pick on raccoons. Every mammal is capable of carrying and transmitting rabies including your neighborhood squirrel, bat, fox, skunk, domestic dog, domestic cat......your spouse...
Speaking of which, our neighbor's highly domesticated wife went nuts a couple of weeks ago when he was traveling and she went to put out the trash. I saw our Village police cruiser pull up with the officer ready to draw his gun. Turns out, she saw a pair of "huge raccoons" in the trash can, convinced that they were rabid and ready to attack her. I intervened (I know the officer) and took a peek. Two 3+/- month old baby raccoons had figured out how to get in the 4 foot deep plastic can, but couldn't get out. Rough estimate, less than 5 pounds each. I scooped them up (wearing gloves) put them in a box and carted them back to the nearby woods. So far, I'm not foaming at the mouth or experiencing any crazy spells. At least not any more than usual.
I am sure if you had gotten bit or scratched they would have made you go to the hospital and probably insisted you get the rabies shots protocols.
I was very interested in the Jetta TDI wagon after the discussion here, but couldn't find anything in the used market and just could not justify an extra $10K over what I spent for the extra space.
Now, I am back in the "watch and wait" category so I can see how the car market evolves over the next few years.
I'm serious, though, when I say that if Subaru offered their diesel Forester stateside (with MT, of course), I'd trade in my '10 Forester in a heartbeat.
price of the car - $25k - $35k depending on the make and features.
price of fuel - Less important than fuel economy.
practicality - Wagon or Small Crossover. 4 doors and hatch. AWD, Quality interior materials. Heated Seats. Auto Climate control.
MPG - 25mpg average minimum.
manufacturer - Audi put a lot of effort into the Le Mans series. Let's see the payoff. Most manufacturers had diesels outside of the US.
performance - What's the equivalent of 160hp gasoline engine (minimum)?
Hopefully we do see a CX5 diesel. The 2l gasser lacks torque. Of course it's a small non-turbo pulling a lot of weight, so no surprise.
Definitely a diesel's target market.
Edit to add:
whatever Mazda choses to call them
SkyActiv D