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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Great deal for you! I'm not familiar with the VW Wagon situation in 2006, were they limited production or some other reason why the value wen up?

    My only close to similar experience was when I bought a 2002 Honda S2000 in November 2001. MSRP was $33,300 with freight; I paid $32,000. Three months earlier, before 9-11, dealers were marking the car up to $38-$40k+ But this was as the first snowflakes were flying, and only 2 months after 9-11. When I checked six months later in April, the Edmunds "True Market Value" for a new car was $37,000 here in the DC area, and if you plugged in a California zip code, it was $40,000. Purely a supply/demand issue, because of Honda's limited production.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    Two things were in my favor on this deal. First the 2001-05 Passat Wagon TDI made in the EU was not legal in any of the California wannabe states. The oil companies were in the process of switching their diesel to ULSD. In the Spring of 2005 diesel prices spiked and that killed the market for diesel VWs in the states they were being sold. A dealer South of Portland Oregon had ordered several of the TDI wagons and was not moving them. I found the dealer and made the deal over the Internet at well below MSRP. We flew to Portland where the salesman picked us up in our new car. We Drove back to the dealership. I gave them a cashiers check and we headed back to San Diego. BP/ARCO was the only oil company selling ULSD in 2005 in CA. I printed out a list of the ARCO dealers in CA selling ULSD. We drove from Portland to the first dealer in CA on the tank provided by the dealership. The 13 months I owned it we only used ARCO ULSD. Over the 8376 miles I owned the car, the best tank was 37.53 MPG. The worst tank was 24.41 MPG. I am not sure how big the tank was. The most I ever got in was 17.283 gallons. Finding ULSD was not easy back then. From April of 2005 till I sold in May of 2006 the cheapest diesel was $2.49 and the highest $3.39 a gallon. I filled up my GMC the same day same ARCO, RUG was $2.93. As a percentage diesel is a much better deal today than in 2005.

    Diesel mileage is much improved as well. I loved driving the Passat. It was just too close to the ground for my tastes. I doubt I will ever make money buying and selling a new car again. That was a lucky deal for me.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    For each of the diesels we have bought, each was almost a set of non standard metrics: one off type, of variables/circumstances and deals. Here's the first.

    I literally stumbled onto the 2003 Jetta TDI. (invoice+ broker fee) I had wanted and thought I had ordered a NB. Got it from a GM dealer in wine country (Napa, CA area) So I did not have to come back up, they offered to flat bed it to my garage, sans fees. It was hard to pass up doing an iconic wine country tour so I made a Sunday pick up date. My sales guy explained the dealership was not open on Sundays, but he was happy to open the dealership to pick up the vehicle. !??? I had brought a personal check, but VW was offering an almost no interest loan. I literally drove away on a signature. Longer story short, after adjusting to the fact there was a Jetta in front of me instead of a NB and a few phone calls to the wife, he took me on a three hour guided tour of the wine country. I think we wound up glad that the car even though it was not from around there, knew the way. ;) :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Interesting @ the end of the MY 2012, there are still some TDI inventory in the CUV segment (SUV segment app 12% of the Pass Vehicle Fleet)

    BMW X5 35 D =671 units

    VW Touareg TDI =407 units

    MB ML 350 CDI= 45 units

    There are of course a much higher ratio of gassers left.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "BMW X5 35 D =671 units"

    Where are you getting BMW inventory data?

    It's not on the BMW USA website that I can find, and I'm pretty sure you aren't calling every dealer in the US to add them up. I've asked this question at least twice before and you seem to promptly respond to every other post, except that particular question. So maybe it's something that you would have to shoot me for if I knew??
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I thought I had posted it, but either it was taken down or I got caught in a internet or thread posting time warp. So again, or maybe if I was mistaken, the first time Inventory
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    2012 VW Touareg @ 13,000 miles (12654 miles actual, screen came on indicating 1,500 miles left ) the AD BLUE reservoir tank seemed to take a qt shy of 5 gals (2 each 2.5 gal containers). So that is app .048 oz per mile, per 1000 miles = 48 oz/1.5 qt consumption. I made a beeline to the dealer and they took the car in right away. They seemed to be ok with me in the bays watching the proceedings. The techs actually performed a fine and thoughtful job.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    I probably forgot to put in the costs for the general discussion. The BLUE DEF (ad blue) is available at a few places, WalMart being one of them, @ 13.99 per 2.5 gal container. So if we use 2 containers (27.98 ) for 15,000 miles the costs break down as such"

    per mile .0018653

    @ 30 mpg .055959 cents per gal

    per 1000 miles - $1.86
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Did you need to take it to the dealer to put it in? It's covered under BMW's 4 year / 50k included service plan, but I thought it was something I also could do myself - as in filling windshield fluid?

    P.S. Thanks for the previous post on your inventory data source.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    The answer is yes. They do not want to give you the materials and let you do it. The dispensing system is a bit interesting , as it is designed to limit spillage in a "jerry rigged" sort of way. The solution is corrosive if allowed to come in contact with even galvanized and painted sheet metal. So neutralization and wipe up is a must, upon spillage.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    O.K. Sounds like I'd be prudent to limit my DIY attempts to other things that don't risk removing the Black Sapphire paint from my wife's X5. She might remove a couple of my body parts in revenge.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    Is the X5 filler on the outside with the fuel filler. One of the Adblue vehicles has the filler in the same spot. Best to use a good funnel and be ready to wash any drops that may hit the paint. Safe for humans not most metals.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Oh no, I did not intend that to be a response, especially from a DIYer. (like yourself)

    I do understand that the plastic dispensing product is standard in the BLUE DEF product space.

    Before and after watching the techs doing the job, I already knew how and was bound and determined to be ABLE to do it myself. One caution I did pick up was that if you reused the smaller sized dispensing (1/2 gal) bottle with the bottoms cut out to was to use a rag over the cut off end to avoid air burping causing product backsplash.

    Really the hardest thing about the procedure once you have the proper equipment is to pull the stuff out of your trunk, i.e., unbolt your spare tire and pull out. You can even use a long neck funnel, but the reused bottle dispensing system is GREAT if you are getting near filled as it stops the excess from splashing as a funnel will NOT, all over the floor of your trunk.

    Peak 2.5 gal Blue DEF and hose adapter

    Here is a sample of what the dispenser looks like:

    AdBlue DEF Diesel Exhaust Fluid 1.89 liter 4 - 1/2 Gallon bottles 4 Bottles

    Dispenser bottle AdBlue/DEF diesel exhaust fluid
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Evidently, (in hind sight) the 2012 VW Passat TDI seems to be hit. Out of 2,276 units LEFT in the inventory, there are only 91 diesels !!!
  • michaellnomichaellno Posts: 4,300
    Evidently, (in hind sight) the 2012 VW Passat TDI seems to be hit. Out of 2,276 units LEFT in the inventory, there are only 91 diesels !!!

    Which is about 4%.

    Do you know how many Passat TDI's were sold in MY 2012, versus the total number of Passats?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    They do not typically come out with a (2012) MY sales figures till Jan or Feb (2013) . However YTD is 83,662 Passat units Sep. 2012.

    Last year (2011) between 22-23% of the VW fleet (app 324,500 units) were diesels. So that is app 74.6 k diesel units.

    link title

    On the 2012 VW Touareg, the best swag I have are 7,773 total units (7112 sold/661 unsold) manufactured. 2011 Touareg sales were 7535 units. (for app 3.2% more)
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Unleaded gas is dropping fast around here, unlike diesel.

    Today I got RUG for $3.52. Same station was selling diesel for $4.09 and I saw other stations selling it for $4.29 and $4.39.

    Paying 57 cents a gallon more sounds a lot worse than the 16% percentage differential.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Corner store prices

    ULSD $4.35

    RUG $4.33

    PUG $4.53

    We need CA state and Fed tax credits for having to put up with these inequalities. :P :lemon:

    CA state of course blames the Fed. The Fed of course blames CA state. The refineries blame the CA state and FED and court systems and world wide taxation. I have even noticed that counties blame counties. They should work in county tax credits we can take on state and fed taxes !!
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I wonder how the transportation industry would react if there was a push to increase the number of diesel passenger cars with incentives like the hybrids got.

    More demand could tighten supply and drive prices up for the truckers, in which case they'd start running over TDIs. :D

    I suspect the supply would simply increase though. Toss in some tax relief and you could increase the number of diesel cars on the road.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    Where are you located that ULSD is 57 cents higher than RUG? What is PUG going for?

    We hav only filled up 3 times, but in all cases in the DC area, diesel is less than premium and usually about the same as mid grade. All of the other vehicles we were considering (BMW, Acura, Audi, Mercedes) and currently own require premium, so that is our relevant comparison and we are usually saving 10-20 cents per gallon with diesel.

    I can't quite figure out what's up with the Shell station in DC:

    RUG: 4.09
    MUG: 4.35
    PUG: 4.45
    Diesel: 4.15

    The are much higher than suburban stations for gas and we would never go there, except as a last resort, but they are actually relatively competitive with suburban stations relative to diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I am not sure what you mean by your post.

    Diesels (passenger vehicle fleet) have LONG been SEVERELY disincentivised. CA state levies a The 5% diesel passenger vehicle population with 95% being gasser after 30+ years is proof positive. Indeed a greater passenger diesel population (23%) would cut back the barrels of oil, for the same number of vehicles. Now how that would "start running over TDI's" would be something you might need to explain in greater detail.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited October 2012
    I'm in the UP of Michigan and I always forget to check premium prices. :blush: It's usually a dime a pop up in grade, so you can probably find it for $3.72.

    Ruking1, what happens if the powers that be decide to actively encourage diesel car ownership by lowering the fuel cost? Would the semi drivers get upset and protest that policy change, fearing that supply would get crimped and prices would actually go up with demand (I know, it's hard to think it could go much higher).
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I am not sure why they would do that, when the stated aim IS ever increasing fuel prices. !! ?? As you would probably agree from the results they are doing a bang up job ! ? Another direct yet seemingly indirect taxation is for diesel prices TO go ever higher. It is a broader base tax where the so called 47% are cruelly taxed in that the taxations will be passed on through ever increasing prices in/on EVERYTHING.

    So for example, since most folks own gassers, (95% passenger vehicle fleet) Obama denied having ANY control over prices. Since it seemed to affect his poll numbers he did actually give the wink and nod and (magically) prices did come down some. Of course it was explained as "normal" adjustments. ;) :lemon: :sick:
    Indeed the system has been trying to get rid of independent truckers by making it economically impossible for them to operate. So if truck drivers "protest" they lose monies which makes it ever HARDER to do business as an independent trucker.

    Now things are pretty easy to equalize, just give tax credits for any given price, no matter what the pump price. An example would be $4.35 per gal. Just give an independent truck driver a tax credit for 2.50 per gal which would make the effective price per gal @ 1.85 . As you would agree, THAT is NOT going to happen.

    I have read an independent has to do something along the order of 100,000 to 120,000 miles per year to make a "decent living" @ 6 mpg that is up to 20,000 gals. So if they got 2.50 per gal that would be tax credits for 50,000 per year.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    "It now costs twice as much (about $45 per ton) to truck alfalfa from a Southern California farm to a dairy in California's Central Valley as it does to ship it from Long Beach to Beijing."

    THERE'S WATER IN THAT HAY

    "In 2012, the drought stricken Western United States will ship more than 50 billion gallons of water to China."

    Alfalfa is a legume; it takes a lot of water to grow it; and cows love it (or at least farmers like to feed it to them). And China, which has been dramatically building up its stock of dairy cows over the last few years, has been importing lots and lots of American alfalfa. Messrs. Culp and Glennon see more cause for worry than celebration in this U.S. export boom. A list of their concerns can be found in the opinion piece they wrote for The Wall Street Journal, "Parched in the West but Shipping Water to China, Bale by Bale."

    http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs020/1101547782913/archive/1111216012522.htm- l
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Folks can look this up in industry specific publications, but a pretty big percentage of US refined diesel fuel is EXPORTED. Funny how that is when we are supposed to be trying to use less fuel and be less energy dependent and NOT be dependent on foreign oil !!!!!
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited October 2012
    Yeah, but you're comparing 80,000 pound semi loads with big freighters that can haul 400,000 metric tons of deadweight. And bunker fuel is cheaper than just about anything isn't it?

    It's not just water. US may soon become world's top oil producer. (Anchorage Daily News) The article doesn't say how much of our production is getting exported. Of course, when a bunch of it leaks into what's left of the Ogallala aquifer, the hay exports will stop. :shades:

    Back to diesels, there's another new study out this week:

    Diesel fumes more polluting than gas, new California study finds (LA Times)

    "Researchers concluded that diesel exhaust is responsible for 65% to 90% of a region's vehicle-related SOA emissions, depending on the mix of traffic.

    "We can now say that, while both motor vehicle sources are important for these 'secondary' particles, diesel is responsible for a larger proportion, especially in regions such as the San Joaquin Valley with a lot of diesel use"
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    Tell me why the second study is more accurate than the first? Can't trust much coming from the over paid wonks at UC Berkeley. :shades:

    And who is to say the SOA is not from the ships in the harbors spewing 5000 PPM sulfur from bunker oil.

    As far as the sale of Alfalfa to the Chinese, will you be drinking the milk they send back to US, after our dairy farmers are bankrupted? And that is not water from the Ogalala Aquifer. It is from the Colorado river. This is Imperial Valley hay that is going to China.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-09/hay-cheaper-to-ship-to-china-than-calif- ornia-hits-dairies-freight-markets.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Again this get back to what I have said in past posts about shipping bumker oil being 1. 5,000 to 25,000 ppm sulfur 2. totally no emissions mitigation !!!!

    As for the SJV. Agricultural diesel is higher ppm and AGAIN totally no emissions mitigation.

    Another which the studies do not DARE go are airports. Again large ppm sulfur AND aviation engines, AGAIN have NO emissions mitigation.

    So just for openers what do you think would happen if they shut down LA airports, shipping ports and Oakland shipping and airport and SF airport? Shut down Wash DC area airports? PLEASE !! It is a TOTAL NON ISSUE.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    They used areas where emissions have NO place to go. A tunnel and the SJV right up against the Sierras. I don't trust any of those studies that start with an agenda. Close off each end of the tunnel and see if CO kills anyone. Then you know it was RUG. And of course Steve never met a diesel he didn't love to hate.

    They could shut down all the airports and it would suit me fine. I won't fly until the TSA goons are gone along with their X-ray machines. I would rather spew pollution all across America in a BIG SUV as to let them take my rights away.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited October 2012
    I've lived in two places where emissions had no place to go. (Los Anchorage and Boise).

    There's a reason Valley Girls talk like they do. :shades:

    (You're talking to the guy with the electric mower and weed whacker - I'm not overly fond of gassers either, but plug-ins don't have enough range or a cheap enough price tag yet).
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    It would be nice to see a comprehensive test between a VW TDI and a VW 2.0L Turbo for emissions of all types. Including the hazardous emissions when pumping RUG & PUG. There is a reason CA mandated those high priced nozzles for pumping gasoline. It can kill you just smelling the evil stuff. I love the smell of diesel in the morning.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    For whatever reasons, US emissions standards do not have truth in emissions, as they do in European market cars. Even as the US claims to be better than the European !! Perhaps the US regulators do not want folks to see how close and statistically insignificant they really are. ergo BOGUS. When you look at the European standards side by side, there are literally nothing that can be labelled statistically significant. Further when you try to correlate variables in testing for hypothesis they are contradictory @ BEST.

    So for example if one looks at PM Euro 5 standards they are EXACTLY SAME @ .005 each, gasser/diesel. CO is HALF of the petrol/gassers. Now one question along regulatory lines is CO needs to be the same for gassers (LESS like diesels?) !!! Really come on !! NOT !

    Euro ES

    US ES
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    ..."There's a reason Valley Girls talk like they do."...

    Gasser emissions?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    As long as there are more TDI/diesel choices.

    I am just fine with folks getting 28.6 mpg in a gasser, while a TDI gets 45% BETTER fuel mileage 41.5 mpg ( both 2012 VW Passat A/T)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Given the current prices: ULSD 4.35, RUG 4.27 that is .1493 cents per gal vs .10482 cents per mile driven: for RUG costing 42.43 % more !!

    But as said in other posts, everybody knows that (per gal) diesel prices are MUCH higher 4.35 vs 4.27 RUG :P ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They are around here (MD/DC). Diesel is still higher than premium.

    That's just wrong. We get Brent crude, though, so we're competing with Europe's strong demand for diesel. Sucks.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Another is LSD can still be refined in the US refineries. However for passenger cars it can NOT be sold. This of course is the perfect set of economic circumstances for LSD (500 ppm to 140 CA old spec) to be exported to those countries where it is legal both to sell it and consume it. Indeed the "other than" LS Brent crude is way cheaper per barrel !!!! I don't need to tell bit ness majors the lower cost of goods all things being equal the higher the profit. Amortized over gals it does cost several cents more per gal to refine to ULSD. The refineries get a .50 cent tax credit ( per gal) to export. The other .50 cents is paid for by the consumer. It is a pretty great deal if one owns or has interest in an AMERICAN refinery. Obviously it does help the US balance of payments. The more exported the more evening out of the lopsided balance of payments.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    If you are buying Brent crude for refinement on the East Coast that is part of the problem. Brent is selling for $24 per barrel more than W TX intermediate. Which is very good crude. The East still uses a lot of Heating oil that keeps the price high as well. Heating oil (diesel) is selling at 42 cents more per gallon today. Getting ready for a cold winter. Supply and demand. Diesel is and always has been worth more than gasoline. It is all based on BTUs per gallon. If it was break even say nearly twice as much per gallon for diesel, I would still prefer owning a diesel vehicle vs a gas vehicle.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yep, I think people in New England are starting to fill up their heating oil containers. Demand is definitely seasonal.

    My brother-in-law told me he buys oil about twice a year. So he'll fill up when prices are low before winter, but he has no choice when he runs out during winter and pays an arm and a leg.

    It's hard to even calculate a break-even because around here diesel and gas prices don't move together as we might expect.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    I have long since NOT lived in New England locations, but even then, there were NOT expectations that HHO and gasoline prices moved together. If anything the HHO demand drove up gasoline and diesel prices,
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    "Folks can look this up in industry specific publications, but a pretty big percentage of US refined diesel fuel is EXPORTED. Funny how that is when we are supposed to be trying to use less fuel and be less energy dependent and NOT be dependent on foreign oil !!!!!"

    ..."Bloomberg writes that to offset weak U.S. demand, refiners exported 439,000 barrels a day more than were imported the year before. In 2010, daily imports averaged 269,000 barrels, according to the Petroleum Supply Monthly report."

    Pandora's box has long been opened
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    That's been true for quite a while, even before the economy tanked, but it never comes up when people want to drill in the refuge up in the Arctic or want to build a pipeline across the Ogallala aquifer. It's not about energy independence, it's about the dollars.

    If you let the crude pile up here though, there's no excess refining capacity to deal with it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    No tanks to the EPA. :surprise: :sick: Here is a read em and weep article from the late 1990's.

    ..."When the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) began its program, an estimated two million regulated tanks existed. According to a recent survey sponsored by the Petroleum Equipment Institute, only about 750,000 tanks remain-a 62.5 percent decrease in the number of tank units. These figures suggest that five of every eight tanks in existence in 1988 are no longer in service."....

    Less Tanks courtesy of the EPA

    Well I did decline to state that period has been app 40 years.

    Again another reason for diesel in passenger cars. Why have the capacity to go 581 miles on gas, when on the same tank size you can go 800 miles !? Or 38% longer?

    Everyone can run their own numbers.

    An example can be: 27 miles/54 R/T commute, app 14,000 miles per year 14,000/30= 467 gals/25 gal fill= 19 fill ups/12 mo or 1.56 fills per month.

    So what,... you say?

    If I got 20 mpg (same vehicle but gasser)20 mpg/ 700 gals/25 gal= 28 fills/12mo or 233 gals more (50% more fuel use) or 2.33 fills per month. @$ 4.13 RUG that would be $62.29 more/12= $80.19 mo more.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Just in time inventory and lots fewer leaks?

    Funny, 24 years have passed since '88 and I have more leaks. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    JIT started a LONG time ago. Why are we going round and round about the obvious?

    At one time in a former work life, I would have been ACUTELY interested in fuel tanks construction and latest technology employed.

    On a more current note, well... how about those elections ? The day must be soon upon us, diesel fuel pricing dropped .02 cents to 4.33 !! Woo HOO !! That is only a 134.1%, 33.5% per year rise since 4 years ago (1.85)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Or helium bars? :confuse:
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    edited October 2012
    I think this would be a dandy runabout with the 1.6L TDI Bluemotion engine. VW comes out with some great concepts that so far have not materialized. This one should be more than capable of 50 MPG combined. I can always hope.

    image
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    No Plans To Bring Volkswagen Taigun to U.S. (Inside Line)

    Probably too small for our market, at least to the thinking of the marketing departments.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    So many disappointments in the automotive realm.
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    Have a search for Skoda Yeti. Very popular here in UK/Europe and I'm betting the Taigun shares the floorpan and mechanicals. Yeti is available in FWD or AWD and Skoda, of course, is one of the VW Group budget brands, (but better designed and built...........some would say; me amongst them).
This discussion has been closed.