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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
I do a better than that with my 8 seat minivan. You're comparing your trip mpg with their non-hyper miler average, that's apples to oranges.
C&D observed 21mpg with the diesel. Still decent but nowhere close to your extreme hyper-mile style.
So for example for 52 vehicles that same site lists 46.5 mpg for the VW Jetta tDI. 50 mpg doing nothing special is hardly hyper milling. In fact it is only 7.5% better than the stated average.. I have even repeated multiple times under the app commute conditions. It is obviously you continually ignore this. The 2003 Prius (same year) lists 45.4 mpg (25 vehicles). While this is not too different from the 2003 TDI (WAY different cars by the way, but you know that), it is way off from the stated EPA @ the time. My results are only one mpg better than the state H EPA of 49. It has ALWAYS been a apples to oranges comparison!! Why do you want to insinuate that that has changed? It has not. The only nexus is the close mpg. (46..5 to 45.4) Again, this is a total boring non issue.
We're not measuring how well you drive, it's not all about you. :P
27.4 for the 2012, small sample though. FWIW the RX hybrid beats that number (not that these would be cross shopped).
C&D's Touareg hybrid used 19% more fuel but also reached 60mph in 14.5% less time.
Some people (including C&D) are willing to make that sacrifice for the extra performance. That hybrid wasn't really designed to be economical.
Newer Prius have improved a lot, and has had the edge for a while, as I'm sure you know.
Golf VII could challenge that crown, with 50 lbs less weight and other improvements.
Constant improvement is just part of the game. Indeed Toyota was FORCED to! ? Indeed even as they dumbed down the EPA test for Prius, Toyota could not continue to say it got 60 mpg C and 50 mpg H when it can/could not even get 50 mpg (2004 T Prius) 40-45 mpg in the real world ? EH?
I think the real upshot was that Toyota was forced to face the realities and in effect indicated it could not meet the 50 mpg, let alone 60 mpg under the "old" EPA standards !!!!! This was opaque to people like us, but defacto, very very clear. Then, they next had to REDESIGN etc to meet that 50 mpg under the new and more easier standards or forced to readjust. They and you leave out the fact they dropped the so called "60 mpg" C BS.
As per a few of my posts, it has been abundantly obvious the deck/s has/have been stacked against diesel for many years. Indeed the regulators are afraid to let in diesels simply on the better mpg factor alone @ less cost and technical complexity. The stated policies are ever increasing costs for transportation starting with fuel. (cost per mile driven: fuel)
Nothing, I was just explaining my 2nd response.
The TDI did manage an impressive 4mpg better than combined EPA claimed.
But guess what? The Prius beat the combined EPA by 4.4 mpg.
Why all the hate? Not to mention cherry picking ONLY the favorable numbers. Shame on you.
Edit: just noticed another "cheat". You were talking about the 2003 Prius and then switched in the 2004's EPA numbers.
Not odd, just a little stupid, IMO. Check out their scoring of the two vehicles: Points
C&D ranked them on 22 attributes, TDI lost by 6 points total. Acceleration difference was 7 points alone. They do 0-60 in 5.9 and 6.8 respectively. Yet a $3,000 difference in purchase price in favor of diesel was only worth 1 point.
That's putting a value of $2,333 per 0.1 second of acceleration (i.e. the diesel would presumably have to be $21,000 less than Hybrid to get 7 points = the equivalent of 0.9 seconds 0-60). O.K., maybe if I'm shopping sports cars and comparing a 911 base against a 911S and trying to justify a $10k difference. These are 7 passenger SUV's for god sakes. If some soccer mom or dad really needs to drag race at stop lights and 0-60 in 6.8 seconds isn't good enough, I respectfully suggest they work harder on their day job and go to the Porsche dealer for a Boxster S. It's 4.5 seconds 0-60 and only about $10k more than the Touareg Hybrid. So at $715 per 0.1 second, a spectacular deal, based upon C&D's idiotic point system.
That's a supercharged V6, and has no lag at all, on top of a electric motor with peak output at zero rpm. They just liked the results better.
It's not like the TDI needs to be any quicker, they just like the way the gasser felt.
Any how doesn't matter, consumers are not enthusiast mag editors, and felt very differently.
Actually a good question. Why DOES the US regulatory chain HATE diesels !!! ???
They shook on it.
The wave that resulted was featured in the movie The Perfect Storm.
Evidently a lot more folks are still in the gasser's group if the number of LEFT for sale 2012 MY Corolla's ($12,988 to $28,260) units 1,680 vs Prius's ($20,885 to 40,510) units 15,141 are any indicator/s. There are 9 times + more Prius's than Corolla's.
2012 VW TDI's LEFT : Passat/79 Jetta/4
You're over on the other side of the country, but here in the northern half of the east coast we basically get the parts of the oil barrels (Brent Crude) that Europe does not use.
From each barrel you get a certain amount of gas, and a certain amount of diesel. No way to get only diesel from a given barrel.
We could not have a huge spike in diesel supply because we'd end up driving up prices by competing with Europe.
Brent Crude is expensive enough already!
Keep in mind there are 4 Prius models now. Especially given the price ranges up to $40,510.
Corolla had been selling for so cheap, I'm surprised there are any left.
Bargain wheels for college students/recent grads.
But yes when you add in the left off the sin list (7962 units) C (3845 units), V (4023 units) PI's (94 units) it is more like 13.752 times. more (than 1680 Corollas).
So I guess I should say GO DIESEL !! Actually its a tense problem, they be GONE already ! :shades:
They sold 16,774 Prius in October, and October is famous for having the slowest sales rate of the whole year!
So Prius supply is actually short.
VW has an ever bigger shortage of supply.
Correction to a mileage radius mistake of 4 Jetta TDI's. US inventory is more like 1,252 units. (right now)
Europe is basically going to melt down, so they may as well send (a lot) more diesels over here.
Why they're doing a Jetta hybrid is beyond me. We all know that will fail.
I got gas at a Pilot in southern Michigan about an hour ago. Regular was $3.45. Diesel was $4.15.
If spreads over fifty cents a gallon hang around, that's going to kill some interest in diesel cars.
Sounds like on the west coast that's not the case.
Our station is absurd:
Reg $3.69 9
Mid $3.84 9
Prem $4.04 9
Diesel $4.35 9
Cheapest gas $3.389, cheapest diesel $3.859. (GasBuddy 20854)
ruking1 is right, these prices are fixed! It *IS* a conspiracy!
Reg: $3.899
Mid: $4.199
Prem: $4.299
Diesel: 4.199
There are a few Shell and Mobil stations in DC area that are in the $3.89-$3.95 range. Unfortunately, in locations you would probably be best to avoid at night wearing a Steelers hat.
Here is an easy one. It of course is NOT sound bite able. If eyes glaze over I understand.
On $1.85 per gal (diesel fuel price when Obama started, now the first time) with (JUST CA state SALES taxes 9.5% = 1.69 per gal (.161 cents per gal, but on price TAXATION) we are not talking at all about the STATE and FED excise taxation.
FF to 1 hour ago (app 4 years LATER with diesel fuel @ 4.18 =$3.82 (.3629 cents per gal, but on price TAXATION).
So the tax on the exact SAME commodity (1 gal of fuel) is NOW 225% MORE per gal. .3629/.161 cents. In other words, taxation on this commodity has increased 56.25% per year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, if anybody got convicted , do you think CA state is willing to give back to those victimized ANY of the (NOW) illegally collected taxation? LOL the second coming of Christ the Savior is more likely. :lemon: :shades:
One of the better, if not the best, descriptions I've seen for the Pious.
WOW I loveeeeee Loveeee my car.... I knew when there is a gas shortage there will be no Diesel Shortage... All stations in NYC have no gas but some have diesel... YAY... Lines long as a mile for gas, and I just went into a closed gas station and asked if they have diesel... they told me to pull up to the pump... IN and Out!!! I LOVE DIESEL!!!!
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/f26/no-gas-ny-nj-ct-but-plenty-diesel-20146/
ULSD $ 4.17
PUG $ 4.03
RUG $ 3.83
Touareg TDI, 617 miles, filled with 20 gal.
1. Pick up some sales from those folk who think hybrids are the knees on the bee, albeit very few sales.
2. More importantly, reduce the VW Group "Fleet" CO2 figure - a calculation based on CO2 outputs from each model in the catalogue. The higher the CO2 figure, the more the company are environmentally taxed, (in the EU, at least). Cute huh ? They've obviously done their homework and it makes commercial sense to produce the vehicle and maybe sell a few.
This is precisely why Aston Martin sell their "Cygnet" small car........a cosmetically enhanced Toyota IQ, (at a silly price, 'cos AM owners aren't poor folk). It helps offset the "Fleet" CO2 figure from all their lovely proper cars. Follow the linky thing.
AM Cygnet
Here are some mpg figures:
09 VW Jetta TDI 39.6 mpg,
09 Toyota Camry hybrid 36.3
09 Toyota Camry 27.7
12 VE Touareg TDI 27.4 (current price ranges- $ 39990 to 60625)
12 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 24.9 ($38,451 to 53,002)
12 Toyota Highlander 19.2
But still, 10,000 copies is pretty good for a niche vehicle, assuming they sell them all.
It ( Jetta platform) is infinitely a HUGELY more versatile platform (and on many more levels:2 examples being: engines, A/T, MT, DSG, hybrid, and etc., etc., etc.) and models vs say the Prius.
As good as Prius is, and at what IT does, the Jetta platform is a way different and more customizable vehicle than a Prius. So for example, Prius had an almost total uphill battle to 50 mpg (strong suit). VW actually dumbed down from ABOVE 50 mpg !!!!
It is true for other VW platforms. My gosh in 1978, I bought a VW Rabbit, aka, FF to 2013 (35 years later) the reincarnation "GOLF" (platform) is still and by almost all accounts better than EVER.
In the 1966 to 1982 time frame, I would not even consider a Japanese brand. NONE were ready for prime time, so to speak.
Your good fortune with a 1978 Rabbit was, I believe atypical. We had a 1981 Honda Civic GL that lasted 14 years and 190k miles within our family, and outlived at least three VW/Audi products that my BIL went through: Rabbit (diesel), Scirocco, Audi Coupe. He had more fun driving those in the first 40k miles, put up with mechanical issues for the next 20-40k miles and gave up on each one after 4-5 years and 60-80k miles. That little Civic got passed around to at least 3 family members during that time.
On the other hand, another good friend of mine had a Mercedes 240d 4-speed manual that just wouldn't die. Can't remember the year, but he put 200k miles on it and it was still going strong in the mid 1990's, but he was too cheap to buy a new water temperature gauge when it broke. And then he wife ran over something that punctured the radiator and kept driving. Until it blew up.
For whatever reasons, we had "early flirtations" with the Japanese oem's ( 1978 Honda Accord , I think my then GF had read the CR reports). On EVERY measurement it was a BAD dog. We had decided 4 years later (now wife) on 1982 Honda Accord and while cheaply made, it was the proverbial trooper. It was sold with app 98,000 miles. It and CR reports was in a way a green light for another Japanese oem, Toyota Camry 1985 (now going on 28 years ago). After 75,000 miles it turn to be the bad dog with numerous problems too much to document and NONE diesel related.
MDX: 256 miles, 19.4 gallons = 13.2 mpg; $3.86/gallon =$75.00 = 29.3 cents/ mile
X5d: 345 mils, 17.8 gallons = 19.4 mpg; $4.20/gallon = $74.75 = 21.7 cents / mile
So even though in this real world comparison, ULSD was almost 9% higher than PUG, the cost per mile is still 26% less in the X5d. Looking at it another way, diesel prices would need to hit $5.68 per gallon; $1.82 higher than PUG, before the X5d wasn't still costing less to fuel up per mile than the MDX.
BTW, the $4.20 ($4.199) diesel price was at the DC Shell station that I previously posted. There, PUG is $4.30. For some reason, I find it easier to stand at the pump there and pay $4.20 per gallon, than pay $4.15 a gallon at a suburban station and stare at a pump that has PUG at $3.89. So I am also guilty of letting my emotions overtake my rationality.
3,871 gals diesel consumed
6,546 gals pug consumed
3,600 gals diesel consume anecdotally
At todays corner store prices of $4.17 ULSD, $4.03 PUG, $3.83 RUG,
$16,142 ULSD (cost per mile driven fuel:) .089678
$26,380 PUG .14656
$15,012 diesel anecdotally .0834
PUG is $10,238 MORE or 63% MORE
(anecdotally PUG is 70.4% MORE)
BUT WAIT there is much more "good news"!!!!!
ULSD was $1.85 per gal when the BO administration took over. So at 46.5 and 50 mpg CPMD: F was .03978/.037. So in those short 4 years diesel prices have gone up 125.4%
or 31.4% PER YEAR CPMD F !!!
A comment in passing is that taxation would rise an average of 3,500 per household. Gee I wonder if that will be better or worse for the 47%? We already ran the fuel scenarios. Well that's N/A, if the 47% do not use fuel.
"IF I WERE EMPEROR" was a quote. He would raise per gal tax .25 cents and probably "other taxations". Does this mean more bail outs?
This cat has been LONG out of the bag. Massive oil shortages?
I used to live in Kensington, so probably drove by your house many times.
A lot of generators run on diesel, though.
Still, no trucks = diesel to spare.
Yeah but they're CAFE scores beat other brands that also sell the same full line-up, including Nissan, Ford, GM, or Chrysler.
They may not be best but they do well for each class they compete in.
Another spin off is VW can be much more profitable over all and in each and every platform, model and unit !!!!! The results of this concept were demonstrated way back in both 2008 and 2009. While most to all other oems were busy LOSING billions, VW was making BILLIONS !!??
VW has growing US market share, albeit small (start @ less than 2.5%) Now rumored to be (read this in passing) 5% or 2x better (200%) GM, etc struggles with MAINTAINING market shares.
Each and every point is very huge. When you cumulatively add them,... WOW !
US makes had their market collapse in 2008, Japan had their tsunami last year, now it's Europe's turn to weather their "storm".
Looks like Greece finally passed the austerity measures.
What I'm saying is VW's tough times are still ahead.
Why would they be. They are not only the largest seller in the EU, they are the largest in China and as you know Brazil. Two of the major emerging markets. And they are growing faster than most in the USA. They also build cars that are affordable for the EU. The EU may be the downfall of GM again.
Even Toyota's projected 2012 profits do not even begin to erase losses it suffered during the 2009 MY.
Just an interesting observation but of the remaining Jetta TDI's there are 412 manual transmissions as opposed to 800 DSG/A/T's, (34% M/T)
Brazil is still growing but they will face increasing competition.
Good thing for them they've exceeded those projections just last week
Per AN alert:
July-September net profit more than tripled to 257.9 billion yen on solid vehicle sales in North America and Southeast Asia.
I still don't understand all the hate for Toyota.
I own two Toyota products. That gives me license to point out their faults. I think they could be so much more for US offering their World class diesels in the USA.