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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    Where are you getting mpgs for those V6s?

    I do a better than that with my 8 seat minivan. You're comparing your trip mpg with their non-hyper miler average, that's apples to oranges.

    C&D observed 21mpg with the diesel. Still decent but nowhere close to your extreme hyper-mile style.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    Same places I always have www.fueleconomy.gov. My results of course are mine and anecdotal. How I would do with ANY/any other vehicle, under my conditions and driving is a matter of projection and conjecture, so I go with what other folks say. However that has always been the methodology you make it sound like you are just discovering this or I am hiding something You have not. I am not.

    So for example for 52 vehicles that same site lists 46.5 mpg for the VW Jetta tDI. 50 mpg doing nothing special is hardly hyper milling. In fact it is only 7.5% better than the stated average.. I have even repeated multiple times under the app commute conditions. It is obviously you continually ignore this. The 2003 Prius (same year) lists 45.4 mpg (25 vehicles). While this is not too different from the 2003 TDI (WAY different cars by the way, but you know that), it is way off from the stated EPA @ the time. My results are only one mpg better than the state H EPA of 49. It has ALWAYS been a apples to oranges comparison!! Why do you want to insinuate that that has changed? It has not. The only nexus is the close mpg. (46..5 to 45.4) Again, this is a total boring non issue.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Then let's use the same source for all the vehicles, including the Touareg TDI.

    We're not measuring how well you drive, it's not all about you. :P

    27.4 for the 2012, small sample though. FWIW the RX hybrid beats that number (not that these would be cross shopped).

    C&D's Touareg hybrid used 19% more fuel but also reached 60mph in 14.5% less time.

    Some people (including C&D) are willing to make that sacrifice for the extra performance. That hybrid wasn't really designed to be economical.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You edited.

    Newer Prius have improved a lot, and has had the edge for a while, as I'm sure you know.

    Golf VII could challenge that crown, with 50 lbs less weight and other improvements.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    And what is wrong with editing? You are not saying you never edit?

    Constant improvement is just part of the game. Indeed Toyota was FORCED to! ? Indeed even as they dumbed down the EPA test for Prius, Toyota could not continue to say it got 60 mpg C and 50 mpg H when it can/could not even get 50 mpg (2004 T Prius) 40-45 mpg in the real world ? EH?

    I think the real upshot was that Toyota was forced to face the realities and in effect indicated it could not meet the 50 mpg, let alone 60 mpg under the "old" EPA standards !!!!! This was opaque to people like us, but defacto, very very clear. Then, they next had to REDESIGN etc to meet that 50 mpg under the new and more easier standards or forced to readjust. They and you leave out the fact they dropped the so called "60 mpg" C BS.

    As per a few of my posts, it has been abundantly obvious the deck/s has/have been stacked against diesel for many years. Indeed the regulators are afraid to let in diesels simply on the better mpg factor alone @ less cost and technical complexity. The stated policies are ever increasing costs for transportation starting with fuel. (cost per mile driven: fuel)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    what is wrong with editing?

    Nothing, I was just explaining my 2nd response.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    Hatch automatic, the 2003 Prius was ahead 45.4 to 37.0.

    The TDI did manage an impressive 4mpg better than combined EPA claimed.

    But guess what? The Prius beat the combined EPA by 4.4 mpg.

    Why all the hate? Not to mention cherry picking ONLY the favorable numbers. Shame on you. ;)

    Edit: just noticed another "cheat". You were talking about the 2003 Prius and then switched in the 2004's EPA numbers.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    The really odd thing is C&D picked the hybrid in a direct comparison:

    Not odd, just a little stupid, IMO. Check out their scoring of the two vehicles: Points

    C&D ranked them on 22 attributes, TDI lost by 6 points total. Acceleration difference was 7 points alone. They do 0-60 in 5.9 and 6.8 respectively. Yet a $3,000 difference in purchase price in favor of diesel was only worth 1 point.

    That's putting a value of $2,333 per 0.1 second of acceleration (i.e. the diesel would presumably have to be $21,000 less than Hybrid to get 7 points = the equivalent of 0.9 seconds 0-60). O.K., maybe if I'm shopping sports cars and comparing a 911 base against a 911S and trying to justify a $10k difference. These are 7 passenger SUV's for god sakes. If some soccer mom or dad really needs to drag race at stop lights and 0-60 in 6.8 seconds isn't good enough, I respectfully suggest they work harder on their day job and go to the Porsche dealer for a Boxster S. It's 4.5 seconds 0-60 and only about $10k more than the Touareg Hybrid. So at $715 per 0.1 second, a spectacular deal, based upon C&D's idiotic point system.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's more than just numbers, though.

    That's a supercharged V6, and has no lag at all, on top of a electric motor with peak output at zero rpm. They just liked the results better.

    It's not like the TDI needs to be any quicker, they just like the way the gasser felt.

    Any how doesn't matter, consumers are not enthusiast mag editors, and felt very differently.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Why all the hate?"...

    Actually a good question. Why DOES the US regulatory chain HATE diesels !!! ???
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A long time ago, the American continent was having a beer with the European continent, and they agreed one would take the diesel fuel, the other would get the gas.

    They shook on it.

    The wave that resulted was featured in the movie The Perfect Storm.

    :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    Sort of that IRISH joke in western Ireland? Well the next parish over is.... America !? ;)

    Evidently a lot more folks are still in the gasser's group if the number of LEFT for sale 2012 MY Corolla's ($12,988 to $28,260) units 1,680 vs Prius's ($20,885 to 40,510) units 15,141 are any indicator/s. There are 9 times + more Prius's than Corolla's.

    2012 VW TDI's LEFT : Passat/79 Jetta/4
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep.

    You're over on the other side of the country, but here in the northern half of the east coast we basically get the parts of the oil barrels (Brent Crude) that Europe does not use.

    From each barrel you get a certain amount of gas, and a certain amount of diesel. No way to get only diesel from a given barrel.

    We could not have a huge spike in diesel supply because we'd end up driving up prices by competing with Europe.

    Brent Crude is expensive enough already!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    Yes I have posted it more than once, of 42 gal barrel 9.8 gals diesel, 19.3 gals RUG/PUG. You indeed have it back wards. We have SOOOOOO much diesel supply that we are EXPORTERS of diesel fuel. EIA.gov puts that @ 20% of domestically refined diesel. I am sure there are some laws against that % being MORE !!!!!!! ???? It is more than obvious that wholesale and retail export is plays its part in "tighter supply" Indeed diesel should be a lot cheaper than RUG/PUG. Indeed Brent cost more than "other than" Brent. The price of oil are also going down down and down.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    9 times + more Prius's than Corolla's

    Keep in mind there are 4 Prius models now. Especially given the price ranges up to $40,510.

    Corolla had been selling for so cheap, I'm surprised there are any left.

    Bargain wheels for college students/recent grads.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wish, around here diesel prices are downright ridiculous, more than premium fuel. :sick:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    Like you were going to accuse me of spiking the football after a 55 to 0 win !?

    But yes when you add in the left off the sin list (7962 units) C (3845 units), V (4023 units) PI's (94 units) it is more like 13.752 times. more (than 1680 Corollas).

    So I guess I should say GO DIESEL !! Actually its a tense problem, they be GONE already ! ;) :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Prius is not in oversupply. Actually they have less than the 60 days' worth ideal supply.

    They sold 16,774 Prius in October, and October is famous for having the slowest sales rate of the whole year!

    So Prius supply is actually short.

    VW has an ever bigger shortage of supply.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    LOL How many days do 79 Passat TDI's last? ;) :shades:

    Correction to a mileage radius mistake of 4 Jetta TDI's. US inventory is more like 1,252 units. (right now)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    You've only highlighted the poor allocation of cars that VW has.

    Europe is basically going to melt down, so they may as well send (a lot) more diesels over here.

    Why they're doing a Jetta hybrid is beyond me. We all know that will fail.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    around here diesel prices are downright ridiculous, more than premium fuel.

    I got gas at a Pilot in southern Michigan about an hour ago. Regular was $3.45. Diesel was $4.15.

    If spreads over fifty cents a gallon hang around, that's going to kill some interest in diesel cars.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    Not YMMV (your mileage may vary), but also YFCMV (your fuel cost may vary).

    Sounds like on the west coast that's not the case.

    Our station is absurd:

    Reg $3.69 9
    Mid $3.84 9
    Prem $4.04 9
    Diesel $4.35 9

    Cheapest gas $3.389, cheapest diesel $3.859. (GasBuddy 20854)

    ruking1 is right, these prices are fixed! It *IS* a conspiracy!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Well, if you are venturing our of Potomac and into Chevy Chase, DC, it's a little better at Connecticut and Fessenden, at least for diesel: Gasbuddy

    Reg: $3.899
    Mid: $4.199
    Prem: $4.299
    Diesel: 4.199

    There are a few Shell and Mobil stations in DC area that are in the $3.89-$3.95 range. Unfortunately, in locations you would probably be best to avoid at night wearing a Steelers hat.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    Our Senator (recently) called for the standard witch hunt (fake war against oil companies) when the local refinery had a fire and one local So CA refinery had an electrical power outage (price rise). Since BEFORE the Carter administration, no one has EVER been convicted, aka conspiracy. Of course we don't even want to offend el Presidentae of Iran either. Every increasing and crazy prices are the multiple policies !!! This would imply "LAWFULNESS". :P :lemon:

    Here is an easy one. It of course is NOT sound bite able. If eyes glaze over I understand.

    On $1.85 per gal (diesel fuel price when Obama started, now the first time) with (JUST CA state SALES taxes 9.5% = 1.69 per gal (.161 cents per gal, but on price TAXATION) we are not talking at all about the STATE and FED excise taxation.

    FF to 1 hour ago (app 4 years LATER with diesel fuel @ 4.18 =$3.82 (.3629 cents per gal, but on price TAXATION).

    So the tax on the exact SAME commodity (1 gal of fuel) is NOW 225% MORE per gal. .3629/.161 cents. In other words, taxation on this commodity has increased 56.25% per year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So, if anybody got convicted , do you think CA state is willing to give back to those victimized ANY of the (NOW) illegally collected taxation? LOL the second coming of Christ the Savior is more likely. :lemon: :shades: ;)
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    . . . a high speed, enclosed golf cart.

    One of the better, if not the best, descriptions I've seen for the Pious.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I got a question for you East Coasters? Did all those stations run out of diesel or were the diesel drivers protected as they were in Katrina? Double protected with longer range and better supply. I did not see any big trucks waiting for fuel in the mile long lines that still exist in many areas.

    WOW I loveeeeee Loveeee my car.... I knew when there is a gas shortage there will be no Diesel Shortage... All stations in NYC have no gas but some have diesel... YAY... Lines long as a mile for gas, and I just went into a closed gas station and asked if they have diesel... they told me to pull up to the pump... IN and Out!!! I LOVE DIESEL!!!!

    http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/f26/no-gas-ny-nj-ct-but-plenty-diesel-20146/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I say way cool for that east coast TDI 'er !
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    Corner Store

    ULSD $ 4.17

    PUG $ 4.03

    RUG $ 3.83

    Touareg TDI, 617 miles, filled with 20 gal.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    SLOW.... TDI diesel weekend. Wife indicated a rear left brake lamp out @ 46,000+ miles and four years. (not a THING to do with diesel) . Went to the local dealer, ordered the part, which they comped. Told me to wait while a tech between jobs could do an R/R. It was real busy, so I asked the parts guy to show me the illustrated parts break down. I just took it home and DIY'd with my wife. Check fluids and topped the tire pressure. The battery as I write this is on the tickle charger. Filled for 40 mpg after weeks of rolling parking lot and stop and go commute.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    edited November 2012
    As an educated guess I would say that the Jetta hybrid is meant to do two things :

    1. Pick up some sales from those folk who think hybrids are the knees on the bee, albeit very few sales.

    2. More importantly, reduce the VW Group "Fleet" CO2 figure - a calculation based on CO2 outputs from each model in the catalogue. The higher the CO2 figure, the more the company are environmentally taxed, (in the EU, at least). Cute huh ? They've obviously done their homework and it makes commercial sense to produce the vehicle and maybe sell a few.

    This is precisely why Aston Martin sell their "Cygnet" small car........a cosmetically enhanced Toyota IQ, (at a silly price, 'cos AM owners aren't poor folk). It helps offset the "Fleet" CO2 figure from all their lovely proper cars. Follow the linky thing.

    AM Cygnet
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    I would agree. It is still amazing what is still opaque about how things are done. Sure Toyota has the Prius, small cars, but at the same time sells WAY more of other products like small, med, large, P/U trucks, midsize to large cars and small, med, large, SUV's. THAT is really the true reasoning and realities.

    Here are some mpg figures:

    09 VW Jetta TDI 39.6 mpg,
    09 Toyota Camry hybrid 36.3
    09 Toyota Camry 27.7
    12 VE Touareg TDI 27.4 (current price ranges- $ 39990 to 60625)
    12 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 24.9 ($38,451 to 53,002)
    12 Toyota Highlander 19.2
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Might even help their CAFE fleet stuff too, in spite of the relatively large number of diesels they sell (relative to other automakers).

    But still, 10,000 copies is pretty good for a niche vehicle, assuming they sell them all.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    In that "niche" sense, being able to do ONLY 10,000 units or less and STILL have it count (HIGHER) in the CAFE equation, being as how most OEM's want to sell the most volume of the PROFITABLE (aka less fuel efficient cars) is very powerful, for not a lot of investment.

    It ( Jetta platform) is infinitely a HUGELY more versatile platform (and on many more levels:2 examples being: engines, A/T, MT, DSG, hybrid, and etc., etc., etc.) and models vs say the Prius.

    As good as Prius is, and at what IT does, the Jetta platform is a way different and more customizable vehicle than a Prius. So for example, Prius had an almost total uphill battle to 50 mpg (strong suit). VW actually dumbed down from ABOVE 50 mpg !!!!

    It is true for other VW platforms. My gosh in 1978, I bought a VW Rabbit, aka, FF to 2013 (35 years later) the reincarnation "GOLF" (platform) is still and by almost all accounts better than EVER.

    In the 1966 to 1982 time frame, I would not even consider a Japanese brand. NONE were ready for prime time, so to speak.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    In the 1966 to 1982 time frame, I would not even consider a Japanese brand.

    Your good fortune with a 1978 Rabbit was, I believe atypical. We had a 1981 Honda Civic GL that lasted 14 years and 190k miles within our family, and outlived at least three VW/Audi products that my BIL went through: Rabbit (diesel), Scirocco, Audi Coupe. He had more fun driving those in the first 40k miles, put up with mechanical issues for the next 20-40k miles and gave up on each one after 4-5 years and 60-80k miles. That little Civic got passed around to at least 3 family members during that time.

    On the other hand, another good friend of mine had a Mercedes 240d 4-speed manual that just wouldn't die. Can't remember the year, but he put 200k miles on it and it was still going strong in the mid 1990's, but he was too cheap to buy a new water temperature gauge when it broke. And then he wife ran over something that punctured the radiator and kept driving. Until it blew up.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    Or perhaps your good fortune with the 1981 Honda Civic GL was atypical. ;) :shades: I sold the (gasser) Rabbit @ app 95,000 miles, if memory serves correctly.

    For whatever reasons, we had "early flirtations" with the Japanese oem's ( 1978 Honda Accord , I think my then GF had read the CR reports). On EVERY measurement it was a BAD dog. We had decided 4 years later (now wife) on 1982 Honda Accord and while cheaply made, it was the proverbial trooper. It was sold with app 98,000 miles. It and CR reports was in a way a green light for another Japanese oem, Toyota Camry 1985 (now going on 28 years ago). After 75,000 miles it turn to be the bad dog with numerous problems too much to document and NONE diesel related.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    As much as I don't like to see recent diesel prices 20-30+ cents higher than PUG, I did an interesting analysis yesterday after filling up our MDX that my daughter is now driving to school. I compared to what my wife is getting in our X5d under similar driving conditions (mostly city)

    MDX: 256 miles, 19.4 gallons = 13.2 mpg; $3.86/gallon =$75.00 = 29.3 cents/ mile
    X5d: 345 mils, 17.8 gallons = 19.4 mpg; $4.20/gallon = $74.75 = 21.7 cents / mile

    So even though in this real world comparison, ULSD was almost 9% higher than PUG, the cost per mile is still 26% less in the X5d. Looking at it another way, diesel prices would need to hit $5.68 per gallon; $1.82 higher than PUG, before the X5d wasn't still costing less to fuel up per mile than the MDX.

    BTW, the $4.20 ($4.199) diesel price was at the DC Shell station that I previously posted. There, PUG is $4.30. For some reason, I find it easier to stand at the pump there and pay $4.20 per gallon, than pay $4.15 a gallon at a suburban station and stare at a pump that has PUG at $3.89. So I am also guilty of letting my emotions overtake my rationality.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    • I think a lot of folks can come to their own conclusions given 10/11 MY's of information on fuel economy.gov on a 2003 VW Jetta TDI vs gasser comparison on roughly 180,000 miles. 46.5 mpg /27.5 mpg (50 mpg (48-52 mpg anecdotal)=

      3,871 gals diesel consumed
      6,546 gals pug consumed

      3,600 gals diesel consume anecdotally

      At todays corner store prices of $4.17 ULSD, $4.03 PUG, $3.83 RUG,

      $16,142 ULSD (cost per mile driven fuel:) .089678

      $26,380 PUG .14656

      $15,012 diesel anecdotally .0834

      PUG is $10,238 MORE or 63% MORE

      (anecdotally PUG is 70.4% MORE)

      BUT WAIT there is much more "good news"!!!!!

      ULSD was $1.85 per gal when the BO administration took over. So at 46.5 and 50 mpg CPMD: F was .03978/.037. So in those short 4 years diesel prices have gone up 125.4%

      or 31.4% PER YEAR CPMD F !!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    A former GM/Chysler executive projects if the fiscal cliff issues (not sure what that means) are not successfully resolved (not sure what that means also); US markets can shrink 20 to 40%. IF this years projected MY sales @ 14.5 M, a 20 to 40% can mean MINUS - 2.9 M to - 5.8 M or yearly sales of 11.6 to 8.7 M sales. This would probably be more bullish for already owned diesels !!!!!

    A comment in passing is that taxation would rise an average of 3,500 per household. Gee I wonder if that will be better or worse for the 47%? We already ran the fuel scenarios. Well that's N/A, if the 47% do not use fuel. ;)

    "IF I WERE EMPEROR" was a quote. He would raise per gal tax .25 cents and probably "other taxations". Does this mean more bail outs?

    This cat has been LONG out of the bag. Massive oil shortages?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Weird that our gas is cheaper yet your diesel is cheaper.

    I used to live in Kensington, so probably drove by your house many times.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not sure, I imagine trucks aren't filling up on those places so surely diesel availability is less of a problem.

    A lot of generators run on diesel, though.

    Still, no trucks = diesel to spare.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It would appear the markets are taking care of the situation without more over government interferences.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    WAY more of other products like small, med, large, P/U trucks, midsize to large cars and small, med, large, SUV's. THAT is really the true reasoning and realities.

    Yeah but they're CAFE scores beat other brands that also sell the same full line-up, including Nissan, Ford, GM, or Chrysler.

    They may not be best but they do well for each class they compete in.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    I am not sure what you are saying.

    Another spin off is VW can be much more profitable over all and in each and every platform, model and unit !!!!! The results of this concept were demonstrated way back in both 2008 and 2009. While most to all other oems were busy LOSING billions, VW was making BILLIONS !!??

    VW has growing US market share, albeit small (start @ less than 2.5%) Now rumored to be (read this in passing) 5% or 2x better (200%) GM, etc struggles with MAINTAINING market shares.

    Each and every point is very huge. When you cumulatively add them,... WOW !
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To clarify, Toyota has a higher CAFE than any other full-line manufacturer, meaning ones that sell full-size pickups and SUVs.

    US makes had their market collapse in 2008, Japan had their tsunami last year, now it's Europe's turn to weather their "storm".

    Looks like Greece finally passed the austerity measures.

    What I'm saying is VW's tough times are still ahead.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What I'm saying is VW's tough times are still ahead.

    Why would they be. They are not only the largest seller in the EU, they are the largest in China and as you know Brazil. Two of the major emerging markets. And they are growing faster than most in the USA. They also build cars that are affordable for the EU. The EU may be the downfall of GM again.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited November 2012
    I realize what you are saying, and that is your opinion. However, any of the legs does/do NOT add up. The first "brick wall" is that GM is NOT doing well. Indeed the stock price is way down and GM wants the government (taxpayers) to sell its % GM ownership at a huge loss. Of course the implication here is another bail out or another bankruptcy. Gagrice has described GM's China (15.5% vs 25.5% of VW), and European component.

    Even Toyota's projected 2012 profits do not even begin to erase losses it suffered during the 2009 MY.

    Just an interesting observation but of the remaining Jetta TDI's there are 412 manual transmissions as opposed to 800 DSG/A/T's, (34% M/T)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    China stopped growing, and their home market will be hit pretty hard.

    Brazil is still growing but they will face increasing competition.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota's projected 2012 profits do not even begin...

    Good thing for them they've exceeded those projections just last week

    Per AN alert:

    July-September net profit more than tripled to 257.9 billion yen on solid vehicle sales in North America and Southeast Asia.

    I still don't understand all the hate for Toyota.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am not sure why you sense hate in any of these discussions. ?? !!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I still don't understand all the hate for Toyota.

    I own two Toyota products. That gives me license to point out their faults. I think they could be so much more for US offering their World class diesels in the USA.
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