What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

scwmcan · February 2013

Another interesting point is that up here in Canada diesel is normally priced closer to regular ( slightly above or below) and is often lower priced than reg. I know there are still taxation differences likely, but still something to ponder ( ie. why do the American governments want shipping for food etc to be higher than it needs to be?).

gagrice · February 2013

The theory on language being a barrier to learning math does not ring true. I think it is more our system of education that wastes a lot of valuable time in class teaching Multicultural BS and social engineering. That and a total lack of discipline in classes starting in kindergarten. Our school systems are a big mess. A big waste of tax payers money.

stever · February 2013

The real problem is all the diesel fumes from the idling school buses leaking into the classroom making everyone dumber. :P

busiris · February 2013

I have limited experience in European education, but I was once taken to "show & tell" by my German friend's 8th grader, and I was the show/tell subject/item.

It was in 2002, IIRC.

From what I saw there, at least in this classroom, there was far more emphasis on world geography, culture, etc. During this educational term, the kids were focusing on the USA, and each kid was assigned a state. Being from SC, my daughter's friend had picked SC to be her state. So, I got to do a "song and dance" about SC.

They weren't focused just on the USA, either. During other terms, the kids focused on Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

I have to admit, I was really impressed with the level of questions and understanding these kids had about the world. This was a public school, and every kid in her class spoke conversational English... Not perfect, but certainly conversational.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

And the word Canada never came up? Not even once??

What a sheltered life those poor kids led....lead still maybe?..

Yet we have a significant German immigrant presence here..and not just recently..

busiris · February 2013

Oops! My omission. All of NA and SA should have been included in my comment...

Funny. Those kids knew every state in the USA by name.

Wanna bet what % of US 8th graders know the states of Germany? The countries in the EU? HOW many countries in the EU?

How many USA HS graduates know any of he above?

And, we wonder what's wrong with our educational system...

gagrice · February 2013

Funny. Those kids knew every state in the USA by name.

Wanna bet what % of US 8th graders know the states of Germany? The countries in the EU? HOW many countries in the EU?

How many USA HS graduates know any of he above?

You could ask college kids those questions in the USA and get mostly blank stares. I had to memorize the capitols of every state. If you did not pass the test you got bad grades. Today they don't want to give kids bad grades for fear they will be traumatized. We are NOT getting our money's worth on education in the USA. Germany spends half what we spend in CA per student year. A kid that does excel is rewarded with a good job. My nephew is in his senior year at UCSD on a math scholarship. He was just flown to TX for an interview and will be going to work upon graduation. Part of the brain drain out of CA to TX. Anyone with money that stays here is crazy.

Probably because you could buy diesel cars in TX while they were banned here. :P

stever · February 2013

Best course I ever took was a research class. You can look all that stuff up in about five seconds.

"Ford Motor Co.'s chief operating officer said Monday the automaker is prepared to act quickly should there be a spike in demand for diesel-powered automobiles.

"If we see diesels start to take off here in the U.S., we can react very quickly," said Mark Fields, speaking to students and faculty at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business. Fields attributed the flexibility to the fact Ford sells diesel-powered vehicles in other regions, particularly Europe, and Ford's global platform strategy."

Ford: 'We can react very quickly' if diesel demand rises (Detroit News)

gagrice · February 2013

The question is this? Can Ford compete with VW. The Focus diesel sold in the UK gets about 10 MPG Imp less than the Golf it would compete against. It is a lot smaller than the Jetta and gets the same combined mileage. And it is not as clean as the VW sold in the EU. Price looks comparable.

I hope they give it a shot. I could like a diesel Explorer. I doubt they are here before I buy my last vehicle.

ruking1 · February 2013

In theory then, ANY oem that does a world wide diesel is similarly "poised" , which is literally almost EVERY oem. In effect this has been so for easily 10 to 20 years. So I think it is easy to see how "quickly they actually have reacted. I think this is a "wanna be" shot across the bow of oems that have actually brought passenger CAR diesels to the US market, specifically VW A. I can tell VW is literally quaking in their boots @ the Chatanooga TN US Passat plant where 20% of the Passats are diesel. Where is Ford's ( and GM and Chysler's) NEW billion dollar + US plant/s that puts together 20% Ford diesels?

Now you have to give Ford, GM and Chysler for having trio handedly created the 250/2500 and above larger V8 TDI "light" truck markets, albeit niche niche markets!!??. Now they truly have been on the US markets for literally decades. The big three have had NO foreign competition in these markets !! In fact they were behind the 5% of diesels and were the majority of the diesel markets, when the US policy makers policies had the effect of chopping that to 3% passenger diesels. Is Ford really going to bring passenger car diesels to the US markets because MB and BMW are? I think this is the kind of talk that was made for Budweiser commercials, after about 10 too many beers. and multiple trips to the lady's room. :P Reality proves this kind of bravado as not credible in the real world.

It is like me saying I have been driving a Ford Focus diesel for the last 10 years and 180,000 miles. It simply would not be real world credible.

ateixeira · February 2013

I wonder if it is sportier, though, maybe more like a GTD model?

gagrice · February 2013

They both have 2.0L diesels with 6 speed shiftable auto transmissions. I picked the sportiest of both. It was the Golf GT, not the GTD. It was priced at $24,880 GBP. The Ford Focus Titanium X 2.0 TDCi is a hatch that sells for $24,900 GBP.

Focus combined UK MPG = 53.3 CO2 = 134 G/KM
Golf combined UK MPG = 62.8 CO2 = 119 G/KM

They don't show the Golf GTD available in the UK.

Volkswagen, bring the GTD to the U.S. exactly as it is here. Don't change a thing. Give us the adjustable suspension, the summer tires, the perfectly calibrated ESC that can be turned off. It's extremely planted, has natural steering and very little body roll. Love it.

ateixeira · February 2013

With their success in racing it would make sense to follow up with performance diesels.

tifighter · February 2013

Well we know they have federalized the 3.2 inline 5 for the 2014 Transit, so they will have something that's close to deployment for, say, Taurus/Edge size and up. Explorer and the F150 are no-brainers if they get serious. Might be a bit big for the Fusion, though.

ruking1 · February 2013

I think we are also seeing the much increased torque given even a slight increase in cu in/ fractions of a liter. Further it would seem illogical to put the 3.2 l in something like the Taurus/Edge, Explorer/F150. Further, it almost seems a complete waste for the big three NOT to do a small block(V-8) turbo diesel, ala 350 cu in on down (5.8 L to 3.5 L) This range of size, in my opinion has the POTENTIAL to dominate the turbo diesel segment for a host of larger cars and light trucks. Stump pulling torque as represented in current 2/250/2500 series "light" (really heavy) trucks are really only for a niche (aka SMALL) market segment. The PU/SUV/large car segment is fully 75% of the passenger vehicle fleet where a small block V8 turbo diesel is absolutely positively a no brainer.

tifighter · February 2013

it would seem illogical to put the 3.2 l in something like the Taurus/Edge, Explorer/F150

Illogical to you, but we know Ford believes that the 3.2D is suitable for Transit van use, as they've already announced it for the US market. The Transit is a vehicle for a heavy duty commercial user, so it is hardly a stretch that they could find it suitable for a F150, with its lower payload and non-HD intended usage.

They already use the ecoboost V6 in the Taurus, Explorer, Flex, various Lincolns, the F150 and upcoming Transit, so its not like Ford does not have a history of applying one engine across a broad spectrum of vehicles. I'm not saying they are going to do it, but it is hardly illogical to think it could be possible.

ruking1 · February 2013

..."Illogical to you,"...

Indeed that is what I said !!

There are a host of COSTLY changes and upgrades that has to happen, to put that TDI engine across the products discussed. So if you are saying they are going to do EXACTLY that, then the logic comes at SUBSTANTIAL upgrades in costs. To state the obvious, there was not a PEEP about (needed/required) upgrades. This lack is a HUGE clue.

Using the common parts bin and platforms make a lot of sense. Again VW has been doing it across many models and for many years.

So for example to put the 3.0 L TDI that is in the VW Touareg into a VW Passat, which has the 2.0 L TDI, would be a literal and figurative logistical/cost nightmare. No matter how cool it might be. As you know the 2.0 L TDI is on the Passat, Jetta, Golf, NB, etc to name a few, off the top of my head.

tifighter · February 2013

Who said it would not be costly? From the article-

"But if market demand rises for diesel-powered vehicles, which he said come at a $3,000 to $4,000 premium compared to gasoline-powered engines, Ford is in a favorable position because of its diesel-heavy European lineup."

Regarding 'not a PEEP about upgrades'...he was giving a speech to U Michigan students, why would he even get into that? They are simply acknowledging that diesel is on the table as an option. I'm sure they'll wait to see how the Cruze, new 6, rumored 2015 Titan etc sell. If they take off, then they have the ability to react. Which is what he said.

ruking1 · February 2013

ZZZZZZZZZZZ !! Wake me when Ford has a passegner car diesel. I might have 400k miles on my 2003 Jetta TDI by then.

Really the question would be why would he NOT !! ??

Edmunds lists 1 FORD 6.7 L diesel, 2013 F-450 Super Duty Crew Cab.

The MSRP ranges from 50k to 67k.

You got to like that 800# ft of torque

gagrice · February 2013

Ford is selling their latest generation Ranger T6 with two diesel engines including the inline 5 cylinder. Unfortunately Ford does not want to take a chance on killing their cash cow F150 sales with this much more eco friendly PU truck.

The new Ranger will be available in 4x2 and 4x4 with three engines:

2.5L Duratec (L5-VE) petrol engine (122 kW & 226Nm) mated with a 5-speed manual transmission
2.2L Duratorq TDCi ("PUMA" ZSD-422) diesel engine (88 kW & 285Nm; 92 kW & 330Nm or 110 kW & 375Nm) consumes as little as 7.6 L/100 km (37.2 mpg-imp or 30.9 mpg-US) with choices of 6-speed manual or automatic transmission
3.2L Duratorq TDCi ("PUMA" P5AT) diesel engine (147 kW & 470 Nm) at 8.4 L/100 km (33.6 mpg-imp or 28.0 mpg-US) with choices of 6-speed manual or automatic transmissionwiki

ruking1 · February 2013

I take it we are talking WORLD ( other than US) market/s Ford Ranger T6 trucks. :confuse: :lemon:

gagrice · February 2013

This is Ford's main truck outside the USA. No Rangers built in the USA any longer. This is a completely new Ranger as of 2012. They shut the Ranger factory down here. I think if the Chicken tax was not still alive and well they would have kept selling at least the new gas model Ranger here.

Last compact pickup rolls off the line this week.

by Paul A. Eisenstein on Dec.13, 2011

The auto industry is back and providing one of the few sources of new jobs in an otherwise struggling U.S. economy. Or so one might believe in most parts of the country. Just dont try to convince the workers at Fords Twin Cities Assembly Plant.

The maker hasnt set a specific time yet but sometime around Friday it is expected that the last Ford Ranger will roll down the assembly line and the 86-year-old plant, located just outside Minneapolis, will finally shut down.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

Further, it almost seems a complete waste for the big three NOT to do a small block(V-8) turbo diesel,

small block V8 turbo diesel is absolutely positively a no brainer.

I sure don't have the same level of faith in a V8 diesel as you seem to have. I'm not even convinced that these V6's have any really long longevity potential. You can go back as many years as you want and include heavy truck, industrial generator, excavator, bulldozer etc use, ALL of those that used V diesels just don't have the longevity potential as an inline block per dollar spent over the life of the unit. While Detroit did have some V's as 2 stroke diesels that actually did sorta last, they put most owners in the poor-house just fueling them.

As for Ford's new V6 F150 TD, I don't care how much so-called presale testing they did...I don't totally trust Ford nor their claims...let's get some miles on these engines in the general public's hands before claiming them as an overall good and competent engine vs dollar spent over life of use.

Heard a 7.4 go by my drive today...gosh that thing sounded TERRIBLE! And it was not a very old Ford...my guess is the owner also is worried big-time about his choice in going with a V8 NA diesel. Now while I am slinging mud, I am quite willing to include Japanese V8's too. My neighbour had the Isuzu V8 in his big dually Chev and while it pulled well and was not too too bad on fuel, and was quite a quiet motor, at (only) 180000 km it needed over 7 grand spent on it. Seals, injectors, numerous seals BTW, and turbo and intake manifold issues. Only 112000 miles! It was a 65 or 70 THOUSAND dollar truck!

Inline blocks are best for diesel use and longevity, IMO.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

Wake me when Ford has a passegner car diesel. I might have 400k miles on my 2003 Jetta TDI by then.

I know you love your little Jetta, and to be honest, I do too although don't have the same expectation of miles/$ spent that you seem to...not without some $eriou$ dollar input (there is a very probable chance you will have to deal with probably two sets of injectors, one turbo and one fuel injection pump before you will see 400000 miles. All super expensive..the injectors being the most affordable of those items.

ruking1 · February 2013

That is fine. There simply are not a lot of experiences with diesels, let alone a comparison between I5, I6, V6. Given what I know about Fords, I would not be an early adopter of their diesel products.

ruking1 · February 2013

I really don't know if it is love so much as a reasonable expectation of longer life. I really don't know why you would have an expectation of long life on a TDI, especially if you don't have one !?

@ 180,000 miles it is running like the proverbial top. Again I have been running 30,000 miles OCI's. I am on the oem set of injectors, turbo and injection pump. A great expectation for a 236 premium over a 1.8T VW Jetta 2003?

dudleyr · February 2013

Gas engines can last too. My brother has 350,000 miles on his Infinity G-20. The problem is the rest of the car has to last as well. I have only 230,000 miles on my '90 Acura Integra, but at 23 years old the stuffing in the seats is starting to rot, and some rust is starting to show through. The engine may last another 100,000 miles, but not sure the rest of the car will. I love the fact that diesels last, but nowadays all engines are capable of 200k.

ateixeira · February 2013

Hit the junk yard and swap out just the seats.

ruking also, do GTI seats fit in yours?

stever · February 2013

At 182k and 13 years, I have niggling little stuff happening, like hard to access dash lights burning out.

ateixeira · February 2013

That happened to my Miata's stereo, albeit slowly. First the top 3rd went dim. Then the middle. Then the bottom. Still worked but I saw nothing in the display, funny.

It was about 16 years old so I just replaced the whole head unit myself.

I kinda regret selling that car.

Back on topic....wonder if the SkyActiv-D would wedge in to the ND Miata? :shades:

stever · February 2013

Oh, I think it's topical. The "pro" that you should buy a diesel passenger car because it'll last longer than a gasser doesn't hold a lot of water in real life to me. *Something* is going to break sooner or later. :shades:

Some high milers don't have diesel on their radar either.

ateixeira · February 2013

Game on!

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/14/ram-1500-to-get-v6-turbodiesel-engine-later-t- his-year/

That's huge...will flip the non-HD pickup market on its head.

stever · February 2013

"Ram plans to shake up the light-duty pickup market with the introduction of a diesel engine. A 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V6 engine will be available in 2014 Ram 1500 pickup trucks beginning in the third quarter of this year.

Neither pricing nor fuel economy was announced.

"Truck owners have been asking for it, and Ram will be the first to offer a diesel powertrain in the half-ton segment," Ram CEO Fred Diaz said in a statement released by the automaker.

None of the competitors in the light-duty pickup market offer a diesel engine."

2014 Ram 1500 Gets V6 Diesel Option

(lol, Juice, you beat me by mere seconds. Your keyboard must have more torque than mine).

crkyolfrt · February 2013

I have probably had more diesels of varying configurations from cars to trucks to construction equipment than you have. Of course maybe you too have had a PILE of them over the years, but regardless... it is irrelevant in that I don't need to presently own a TDI in order to have an educated opinion on them.

Like I said before, let's keep in touch..and see how the Jetta is doing even in its next 180000, let alone the other 40k on top of that. When you start getting up there, every mile starts to really show its age.

I probably should have elaborated my point, which is: in most car-like applications is that you have to love a diesel for the way it runs. Period. Yes, it can show fewer running costs initially. But tally those offsets up after you have replaced the big $ items I mentioned trying to double and triple your present mileage, and all of a sudden it's not the initially perceived ea$y ride you thought it was gonna be.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

Been reading a bit about this lately..the writing was on the wall. But this time they (Chrysler) did something smart...even if it is going to be a V, which admittedly is no surprise whatsoever in engine bay compact space and weight constraints.

Let's hope they don't BUTCHER the poor engine with poorly designed emission devices that kill the engine , which will further cement another nail in the North American perception of diesel engine's coffin in small vehicles.

gagrice · February 2013

At 182k and 13 years, I have niggling little stuff happening

At 105k miles and 23 years my wife's Lexus has some issues. the LCD for the radio is completely dark. The radio antenna goes up, but does not go back down without assistance. So even top luxo barges have issues if you keep them long enough.

gagrice · February 2013

Chrysler under Fiat management is arguably the best of the D3. I don't think there is any question that the Ram HD diesel PU trucks are head and shoulders above GM and Ford. They may be ugly but if you have to tow a big load they are the truck to buy. Cummins knows diesels far better than Ford, IH, GM or Izusu. I also think the Inline configuration is stronger than the "V"s.

Now can Fiat/Chrysler beat the socks off of GM and Ford with a Ram 1500 diesel. I hope they do. They have been gaining market share at a good pace so far.

ruking1 · February 2013

Indeed, off topic, but as a comparison (mentioned more than once on this thread) , we are shooting for as a short term goal 25 years for two Toyota Landcruisers 1994/1996. On topic we wish even then they were diesels. Each has 200,000 + miles. I can say that without a doubt both in items gasser and NON gasser related has cost more in both unscheduled and scheduled maintenance than any diesel I have @ the same mileages.

busiris · February 2013

The "pro" that you should buy a diesel passenger car because it'll last longer than a gasser doesn't hold a lot of water in real life to me.

I remember hearing that adage for years as I grew up.

Back in the 1960-80's, there was probably some truth to it.

But, I think the durability of gasoline engines (in general) has improved dramatically in the last 25 years, with things like fuel injection and all...

Still, if I was into lots of primarily long-distance highway driving, I might very well opt for a diesel, probably of European design. Lots of experience with diesels there...

ateixeira · February 2013

What puts a car to rest nowadays is an accident with air bag deployment. That's a total loss.

Engines seem to run forever for the most part.

ruking1 · February 2013

My 19 and 17 year old TLC's with over 200k miles each are examples. They have consistently passed CA "smog only" inspections with "like new" numbers. I suspect and EXPECT the diesel inspections to be passed with no issues, even as the manufacturer's @ government direction have increase the number of idiot lights than can and do go off.

I have extended "major" tune up intervals from 30,000 miles to 60,000 miles (absolutely no ill effects) and have run 20,000 OCI's since new (again absolutely no ill effects) However with like weights the 3.0 L diesels consume 30 mpg vs 15 mpg. So over 200,000 miles (projected) fuel consumption will be 6,667 gals vs 13,333 gals.

stever · February 2013

Back in the 1960-80's, there was probably some truth to it.

I dunno, and even if it was, what's so great about a running engine in a body with no heat and leaky windshields, that's held together with bailing wire?

Come to think of it, my mom drove an Impala in that kind of shape for several years. :shades:

(She used a coat hanger to keep the passenger door closed).

ateixeira · February 2013

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/13/mitsubishi-previews-diesel-hybrid-pickup-conc- ept-next-gen-ev-fo/

Would probably cost $40 grand, but at least they are pushing the envelope.

Mitsubishi carves out niches that are just too small.

tifighter · February 2013

They really need to find a brand identity. It feels like they don't know who they are anymore.

ruking1 · February 2013

I would not doubt that you have. At the same time a lot of what I have had experiences with are military diesels and for a gaggle of equipment in support of over 3,500 people. So at once it is hard to find an organization that places just a premium on reliability and durability, BUT at the same time almost nobody really CARES and rides everything (to most) and puts it away WET.

Even in light of this past experience, the truth is about the Jetta is I do precious little to it other than keep it clean (try at least) and routinely drive it to (@ least) 75% of redline. In that sense I really do not need to run a TDI to have an educated or NON educated opinion for that matter about them. I care because I have this one and two others.

So a 2nd TB/WP change is due @ 200,000 miles. Given the last one, and how the current one is wearing, I know it would probably not be problematic or catastrophic to go to 225k to 250k. I have yet to decide 210k,225k,250k miles.

I am liking the 30,000 miles OCI's. The engine parts are experiencing (counterintuitively to most folks) less wear than changes @ 5, 10k intervals. Engine oil consumption @ 180,000 miles is the same as when new: app 1/4 qt to 1/2 qt per 30,000 miles. My guess is the first down ward plateaus will show up here when it does (more oil consumption).

ruking1 · February 2013

"...ruking also, do GTI seats fit in yours?"...

I do not have any PERSONAL experiences, but have been to a few GTG's where you see folk's cars (and vendors) that the adaptation in question has been done. The normal issues are comfort, style, color match and bracketry. Another is the functionality of side air bags. Unless you are really uncomfortable or the seats are worn prematurely, it seems a lot of cash for so little performance.

ateixeira · February 2013

Complete identity crisis. They seem to carve out a tiny niche in each class, and no 2 models have the same angle. What do EVO, Mirage, i, and Outlander Sport have in common?

Easy - nothing.

The brand needs a total reboot.

ateixeira · February 2013

Does yours have side air bags? I forget when those were phased in.

ruking1 · February 2013

While there are different configurations, yes all three have side air bags.

fintail · February 2013

Apparently a good lease deal was enough to get me to buy a diesel car. There's an E350 Bluetec with 35 miles on it sitting in my garage spot right now :shades:

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles