What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1 · February 2013

We also have an interesting set of circumstances in that of a 215 miles "winter" journey, the 10 to 11% of the miles are prone to real snow and ice and either up to or down from higher altitude mountain roads (7,300 ft). So really snow tires or even chains would be "necessary" for app 10-11% of each leg.

ateixeira · February 2013

I like that all Foresters and Outbacks are AWD.

Other makes offer the option but usually force you to compromise packaging or you can't get a manual or even both.

Audi is close, available on most.

plekto · February 2013

Note that 4WD and AWD are not interchangeable. AWD is largely useless in actual snow other than to get you unstuck or moving again. The only exceptions that I know of are full-time AWD systems like Subaru and Audi have.

Otherwise, get real 4WD.

The 2013 Rav4 is AWD and not 4WD. Toyota pulled a fast one on us there.
The cheapest 4WD that I know if is the Jeep Patriot as it has a diff lock and can be put into full-time AWD (AWD with a diff lock OR that has dual transfer cases is roughly equivalent). The older RAV4s had that as well, which made them a favorite of many in the winter.

As for a 4Runner? 4WD or just wheel yourself into that retirement home already.

stever · February 2013

"Perhaps the biggest big surprise to us is how much we dig the new Ecodiesel V6 power plant. And we're frankly floored that our calculations suggest a 35,000-mile payback time relative to the Hemi V8. If you plan to keep yours longer, why wouldn't you?"

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee First Drive

ruking1 · February 2013

I am glad you added to the discussion.

If not for the CA chain control requirements, in all likelihood I would have NOT gotten (another) 4WD, even as you know the TLC's are. Even less so is the need for AWD. (for my .02cents of course) Many see either and or both as wanted and needed options. Depending on what vehicles one choses, in some cases neither are options... really.

ateixeira · February 2013

Chrysler - Ecodiesel
GM - Ecotec
Ford - EcoBoost

Ford has done the best marketing so far, lets see.

35k miles is a quick break even if they prove reliable.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

AWD is largely useless in actual snow other than to get you unstuck or moving again.

I doubt you intended to say this as literally as it is read? It's a contradiction to be sure..

Any greater than 2 wheel drive system, no matter how it is configured or dumbed-down clutching engagement percentage, certainly can and does help prevent getting stuck, and make the difference climbing your steep drive home everyday after a long tiring day at work and unloading the groceries from the car to the door rather than making numerous trips carrying them up from the bottom of your drive. And also not being able to even plug the car in that night for the cold start the next morning...(my drive is 700' long).

And if it gets "you unstuck or moving again" that sure isn't useless in my books.

I have had practically every AWD, 4WD system there is on my hill in very very challenging conditions..even my bros Audi A8 one winter, and while some are better than others, every single system gets the car up the hill in 12" of fresh powder, or 6" of wet heavy mild mush...conditions that leave a 2 WD or FWD, completely out of its element.
Another condition example...after a fairly average winter swing conditions of snow, traffic packed, more snow, traffic, then a mild spell, then rain, and the rain reveals the hardpacked base underneath which is actually just one big glare iced surface underneath it all. Then late in the afternoon, the winds come up, the temp dips severely while a cold front dominates and by 6pm, there is 3" of fresh powder on top of your skating rink for a road. We're talking so slippery you have to walk up the edges of the snowbank in order to walk up.
Whenever someone scoffs at the suggestion that NO ONE actually needs AWD or 4WD drive, I think of the many times those exact conditions I mentioned above, and would love to invite them over with their 2WD or FWD and have them eat their words..

So..with all that said...I have never not been able to get up my hill with every AWD or 4x4 system I or friends/family have had. This includes the so-called inferior system on my CRV, or your newer Rav4 example. The Subaru sponsored You Tube that floats around the net showing CRV's and Rav4's and Ford Edge's etc etc all being stuck on roller bearing ramps, while the infamous Subaru's navigate the ramp every time, I think are fixed somehow. And even if they are legit, their test is basically a non-issue in the real world conditions of why people buy/want/need AWD. Perhaps if your driveway was in fact made of rollers, maybe the Sube is superior...who knows..but since it is not made of rollers and even the most perceived inferior systems still manage the worst possible real world slippery conditions just fine, then I think there is a level of hoopla about some systems being so superior to others on hill climbs.

Lastly, the one area that I do believe some AWD systems can be superior, are if you are trying to win a Rally race in the slop. I have even had Subaru's also and even those easily oversteer (no worse nor better) in a slippery snowy corner if you are pushing it a bit, and requires backing off the throttle to get the front end to regain grip. In the real world, this type of behaviour (behavior) should be considered acceptable, because if it is that slippery out, then people shouldn't be pushing the envelope anyway...they still can't brake any better..
And in this type of world, even the most..so-called inferior AWD system, still gets you:
- up the hill
- even towing a trailer with skinny little 8" tires digging in fighting you all the way
- with a 900 lb load on it
- and gets you through that dense snowbank the plow left you with (assuming you don't highside it..no system can work if your tires are off the ground)

And the inferior CRV system can still do all of the above.
Was the 88 Camry I had with viscous coupling and locking diff option, better? Ya, just a little. Was my 89 Subaru XT6 better than the CRV? Nope, not one perceptible bit. In fact, my 03 Matrix AWD actually managed my hill and those extra challenging conditions a little better than the Sube did. Both had All Seasons...maybe the difference was in the rubber. I forget what the Sube had, but the Matrix had Good Year GA's I think.
Matrix used a simple viscous coupler system too..simple, cheap, effective. I actually wish the Honda did too. Save me from having to replace the "dual pump fluid" in the rear end every 15000 or 20000 miles. I suspect the viscous coupler systems use less fuel too.

gagrice · February 2013

Even less so is the need for AWD. (for my .02cents of course) Many see either and or both as wanted and needed options.

In my experience 4WD more than paid for itself when I sold the vehicle. In GM PU Trucks 4X4 was usually about $1500 more. When you go to sell it all comes back and then some.

gagrice · February 2013

I fully agree with Edmunds. Why has it taken so LOOOOOONG?

While none of the engines are a bad choice, make ours an Ecodiesel. And then point us to the nearest patch of slickrock. This is the way to go in a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

gagrice · February 2013

Whenever someone scoffs at the suggestion that NO ONE actually needs AWD or 4WD drive

Those are the same folks that come to have you pull them out of the ditch when their FWD did not get them up the hill.

ruking1 · February 2013

That actually has been my experience and for multiple times and units. But on the other hand, I really had nothing to compare it with for those units have come STANDARD with 4WD.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

So true..and it's happened a few times..

I guess at the end of my book, I should have mentioned that for the easily vast majority of people, even who drive winter regularly, 2WD and a good set of 4 snows gets the job done for them, and is a $ saver all the way around..to buy, to maintain, to fuel..

In fact, I appreciate that many don't buy AWD, cuz we'd just have that many more incompetents that would have all this great 'go' traction, but be ramming/slamming into us from not being able to stop or corner any better..

There's a joke around these parts, and probably many other cities that have winter..on the first wintery day of the season the very first vehicle up against the guardrails or down in the median strip is always a Ford Explorer, with a driver sitting in it with a "duh...wuh happened" look..

stever · February 2013

Chrysler - Ecodiesel
GM - Ecotec
Ford - EcoBoost

Reminds me a bit of all the other marketing catch phrases:

"Clean Coal"
"Clean, safe, affordable" (nukes)
"Clean-burning alternative fuel" (natural gas)
"Clean-tech" (wind/solar/biofuels)
"BlueTEC clean diesel" (or Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, if you prefer)
"ULEV, SULEV, PZEV, ZEV"

In other words, be green, buy a new car and drive more.

Give it about 5 more years before the greenwashing backlash hits the automakers.

ateixeira · February 2013

The A3 "Green Police" ad was great, they should have run it longer.

plekto · February 2013

Another condition example...after a fairly average winter swing conditions of snow, traffic packed, more snow, traffic, then a mild spell, then rain, and the rain reveals the hardpacked base underneath which is actually just one big glare iced surface underneath it all. Then late in the afternoon, the winds come up, the temp dips severely while a cold front dominates and by 6pm, there is 3" of fresh powder on top of your skating rink for a road. We're talking so slippery you have to walk up the edges of the snowbank in order to walk up.

The thing is, that AWD on most vehicles simply is only good fro crawling up a driveway or hill. It's useless when you're going at speed and won't help you in rain, snow, ice, or other road conditions as they simply transfer power and react too slowly.

4WD is always engaged so it's fantastic if you are running down a country road in winter. So is Audi and Subaru's system. Everything else might as well be FWD the second you go around a corner or hit a patch of ice. Maybe the stability control will save you. I'd rather not need for it to kick in in the first place.

gagrice · February 2013

Did Edmund's substitute a picture from 2013???? This is supposedly the look of the New JGC. And I am not thrilled. The JGC Edmund's shows does not look like this.

gagrice · February 2013

I'm not even a little bit impressed. Looks like a POC Japanese design.

scwmcan · February 2013

Not the JGC but the jeep liberty replacement, just the Cheroke, the JGC has smaller headlights than it did before but doesn't look like this. Still looks basically the same as it did since the last redesign. If they are saying this is the grand Cherokee they are incorrect. You are still safe I think to consider the GC diesel when it gets here.

gagrice · February 2013

I just found that out. I forgot about the Cherokee moniker. And did not pay close attention. That is good news because I really like the looks of the JGC. The Liberty (Cherokee) is just too small for my taste. And without offering diesel it would not be on my list anyway.

stever · February 2013

There's a lot of Jeep photos floating around; next time I'll add a photo to my link so you won't be bummed. :shades:

stever · February 2013

The 2014 Cherokee has quite a bit of resemblance at first glance though:

gagrice · February 2013

Kind of looks like BMW X model envy in a way. I was wanting some decent JGC pics for my desktop and when this popped up I was confused, as it did not look anything like the other pics I was seeing of the GC. Looks like competition for the Lexus RX crowd that cannot afford full on luxury. Though the lines between Luxury cars and mainstream are getting blurred. My top of the line Sequoia Limited is nicer than the Lexus GX we test drove. And roomier. Both had the same running gear. I am wondering if the GC with the same platform as the MB ML will be one up with that new German 8 speed transmission. That was my one complaint about the MB diesel I drove. The auto transmission would downshift when you let off the throttle. The sales person was clueless. It may be an option that can be disabled. Would be nice down long steep hills. On the free way it was not to my liking.

ruking1 · February 2013

I actually also saw "a BMW schema" when I first looked at the Jeep "front end" pic Steve posted. To me it was a 3.5 x (7 grills elements) dup and copy of the BMW kidney grill (2 grill elements). I think it 50/50 it might grow on me. :confuse: I might hasten to add that is PURELY a preference thing. WAY after the fact I am really liking the VW Touareg's front. Separately I also like the 6 o'clock treatments.

If one can separate that out, it very definitely has "the CUV look" all the way around.

gagrice · February 2013

I also like the Touareg look. The problem is they are in great demand and I only see 2 within a hundred miles of me. I have gone in a couple times for a test drive and none were available. Same for the ML350 Bluetech.

ruking1 · February 2013

Well I hope my posts did NOT play a part in your current dilemma !? :surprise: Seeming there are a few (6) that have special financing 3.59% for 60 mo !! But yes, @ this time in the 2013 MY there are only 621 VW-T TDI's in the US inventory.

ateixeira · February 2013

What's funny is that if you flip the grille and lights 180 degrees, it actually looks better.

xwesx · February 2013

I haven't bothered with AWD for my daily driver because, honestly, it is unnecessary. If it were our only vehicle, it would be AWD. With a Subaru in the driveway already for those conditions that are simply not worth the effort in the Fiesta (and for my wife to use during her outings).

The only downside I can figure thus far is that the drivers of 4WD pickups sure don't appreciate me "out-driving" them in my little car. :P

ateixeira · February 2013

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/24/volkswagen-planning-up-hybrid-model-using-xl1- - -powertrain/

XL1 powertrain in an Up!.

2 cylinder diesel electric plug-in hybrid. That's a mouth ful.

gagrice · February 2013

If I stretch out to 500 miles from home there are quite a few. Most seem to be in Central to Northern CA. Closest one to me is 88 miles North of here. Our local VW dealer has Zero. Another reason to consider the Jeep GC would be access to a big dealer.

iwant12 · February 2013

I don't think you'd be sorry with the GC. I bought an '11 Larado 4x4 V6 and have been very happy with it. Got 23 K on the clock and not one single problem. Not sure if I like the new headlamps on the '14s, but I do like the fact they've upped the tranny to 8 gears. And the diesel will be out soon, too!

crkyolfrt · February 2013

The only downside I can figure thus far is that the drivers of 4WD pickups sure don't appreciate me "out-driving" them in my little car.

Hey, that's a perk! haha A little humility will do them some good..

ruking1 · February 2013

I would agree ! I was especially impressed with the upside down and crushed Honda Accord (multiple fatalities, car was coming down out of the mountains) on a recent trip during chain control conditions, that I passed on the way UPGRADE. :sick:

crkyolfrt · February 2013

Ouch, I much prefer the front corner profile look in your second pic. I actually think I even like it. But this front-on shot is a bit much...just too much of....something..

But this is the one that does not come in the diesel right?
zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Wow, do I ever like the idea of that VW Up. A real handsome little looker to boot..
But a 2 cyl diesel...V dub is gonna have to not go cheap on motor mounts, that is for sure..I didn't see engine config. A 45¼ L I guess would allow them to get the most smoothness providing they gear it appropriately. With 7 cogs tho, should make that goal a little more easily attainable. A parallel may use up the least room, but they couldn't gear counter-balance that thing enough to keep the bees under wraps. Plus counter-balancers use reserves, and don't want to tax the little bugger more than necessary. We'll let the A/C compressor keep it humble there, haha.

dudleyr · February 2013

Sure would have loved a Diesel Mazda6 wagon with an MT - or any reliable fun to drive midsize wagon with an MT. Darn crossovers are killing my chance of ever getting a more efficient / better handling wagon body style.

While the diesel Mazda6 (when/if it comes out with a diesel and MT) may make me feel some slight regret for buying my '13 Accord I am sure happy right now. 6.6 seconds to 60 mph is quite fun (stick shift) and the mpg is getting better.

I would like to point out that there are some gas cars that have plenty of room and are very frugal with fuel. CR got 44 mpg with the Altima at 65 mph - real world driving. They also got 40 mpg with the Accord - both with CVT. I wrote here that I got 39.4 mpg with my Accord on my 18 mile loop (3 stoplights, 3 stop signs, 700 ft elevation change ...) I ran the test again, but this time with a warm engine (change from a cold soak). The temp was 30 degrees (not ideal at all) just like the first time. My number improved from 39.4 to 44.9 mpg. I still have not put 800 miles on the vehicle so break in is hardly complete. I think I might have a shot at 50 mpg on a warm day once I put on some more miles.

My secret weapon is a 6 MT - notoriously underrated by the EPA.

So yes diesels get great mileage (better than gassers), but the gap is closing. Direct injection et al are making a difference.

BTW CR got the civic HF at 49 mpg hwy (Jetta diesel was only 45 mpg on the same test)

Of course not all "frugal" gassers do so well. The Fusion comes to mind (CR got the 1.6 for worse mpg than the Accord or Camry V-6 models)

ruking1 · February 2013

I don't remember if you mentioned it or not, but why did you bypass the JSW? It is by far STILL the highest resale and highest % diesel. It is also one of the longer "proven" TDI's and wagons.

I really do not like the wagon style in a car. It does come standard with the 6 speed M/T, with the 6 speed DSG as a $1,100 option. For that matter Honda makes a wagon? I followed one in the slow lane (5th of 5 lanes) @ 85 mph coming back home from an errand today. I just really did not much pay attention to it other than it was a light sage green metallic color and you mentioned wagon?

gagrice · February 2013

CR got 44 mpg with the Altima at 65 mph - real world driving.

I wonder how well they would do using CA crap designer gas? The 2010 Accord I rented was auto. Best tank I got mostly highway was 28 MPG. That was real World mild October weather. The much better 2005 Passat Wagon TDI that I owned got 28 around town and closer to 40 MPG on the HWY. It was the old style auto transmission as well. And it was a heck of a lot quieter, better handling more fun to drive than the Accord.

dudleyr · February 2013

I would have loved the JSW, but unfortunately the rear seat is just too tight. I have three sons 6'-2, 5'-11 and 5'-6 and they are all still growing. Other than that it was close to perfect, but if I can't drive my 3 kids to an out of town event (if all 5 go we take the minivan), then not much point in the vehicle.

I did convince my mother to buy a JSW though.

Honda makes an abomination called the crosstour. It weighs 600 lbs more than an Accord and has a severely sloped rear (no room in back). It gets terrible mileage and is slow. It also is much more expensive. I guess you could call the CRV an Accord wagon, but again slower, uses more gas, no stick shift, does not handle as well. Typical crossover shortcomings - for me anyway.

dudleyr · February 2013

CR uses bad gas for their tests for the very reason that they want repeatable numbers. Not sure if it is the worst, but it does have ethanol according to the explanation of their test procedures. Part of the reason why I can beat their numbers is that South Dakota has pure gasoline available year round.

When is a diesel minivan coming out? Maybe I can hop on board the diesel wagon (pun intended) when my wife gets a new vehicle.

ruking1 · February 2013

Funny you should mention the 6 ft 2 metric. On that 10 day ski trip, I could not blast that relative out of the back of the VW T TDI when I drove, so I could switch spots to get that "being driven feeling." He laughed when I asked him if he wanted to drive the VW T TDI. What ? Why? I got traveling WIFI on the IPAD back here, IPhone, movies, Pandora, etc. 110 V A/C for recharging, hot coffee thermos, access to the cooler, more space than (my Acura) MDX......... And the damn back seats are almost fully adjustable :shades:

fintail · February 2013

I've been in the diesel world for 8 days now. No complaints - excellent mileage, plentiful torque, and I like the faint clatter I can sense under 40mph. But I'd have been an easy convert anyway.

ruking1 · February 2013

Yeah, that kind of torque (406 # ft) is REAL hard to convey in print. It's more like a yippee yahoo kind of thing !

stever · February 2013

So yes diesels get great mileage (better than gassers), but the gap is closing. Direct injection et al are making a difference.

Except in the torque and towing department.

Although, some of the pure EVs have torque to spare too (Tesla at least), so I could see the gas hybrids upping that number.

ruking1 · February 2013

Indeed TDI's: Golf, NB, JSW, Jetta, Passat, all (same engine) have 30.4% more torque than the Honda Accord w/ 6 speed manual. As an MSRP comparison, more trims of more Accords cost more than the Passats TDI's.

Passat has been shown to be easily able to post 50+ mpg. The Aussie mileage pros, the Taylor's just recently have posted 84+ mph @ 5 below speed limits (presumably 65 mph) on a Passat TDI made in Chattanooga, TN. :shades:

stever · February 2013

I went from 135 foot-pounds of torque in the 1989 Plymouth Voyager to 200 foot-pounds of torque in the 99 Quest. Was really noticeable in a good way (although we managed okay in the 4 banger for a decade). Not sure why I'd need any more though; the aging van still feels plenty peppy off the line. 80 mpg would be nice though.

ruking1 · February 2013

80 mpg in a Plymouth Voyager? Absolutely !! Did I wake you from a dream during your nap?

crkyolfrt · February 2013

At 135 ftlbs I'm thinking it musta been the Mitsubishi 2.6..a known notoriously troublesome motor. But since your post sounded like it was with recollections more of fond memories, I'm thinking it musta been the Chrysler built 2.2?

xwesx · February 2013

Shoot, I'd even go for 30. A minivan with minimum 30 mpg combined rating (or 26 if it had AWD) would be way up my list for our next vehicle.

ruking1 · February 2013

More realistically, it is a hoot getting 30/31 mpg in a 4974# CUV R/T from sea level to 7,300 ft !! Loaded to the literal gills. But then most knew that was always do able. The issues are more political, economic and regulatory will. All have worked to literally KILL the SUV/CUV segment using mpg as an excuse.

stever · February 2013

Yeah, it was the 100 hp 2.2 liter. Had three head gasket repairs, but all were covered under the 7/70 warranty at the time (the last one was an "after warranty" freebie, and led us to shop for a new van). Otherwise it ran pretty good and we really liked that body style (short wheel base and boxy).

The best the Quest has ever done is 29.9 on a single tank. Has always bugged me to have never hit 30 - may have to make a "Taylor" run sometime.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

Didn't know that engine had head gasket issues. I had my sis old 84 for a short time. I too liked the shape and office. Terrific visibilty...something I always hold in regard. Even the seats were better than you would think they would be. This one was a pretty base vehicle, but had the optional 2.6.

They use to turbo that 2.2 and put it in the...Le Baron? I forget now...that musta made them even harder on head gaskets..

That very van, single-handedly, is what LITERALLY turned Chrysler around back then.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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