What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

xwesx · February 2013

Yikes! Not that I would wish such misfortune on anyone, but yes, I'm glad we had ours, too.

I thought anything was supposedly available on the internet? This is the only photo I could find of a like car (It looked like the one in background):

Off topic, of course, but lots of memories nonetheless.

ateixeira · February 2013

That explains the complete failure of Honda and Toyota during that era. :roll eyes:

fintail · February 2013

All of those 5-door models ended up in the PNW. Several still on the road here.

And to be on-topic, there was a diesel Camry - I've seen one.

gagrice · February 2013

This is not a gas or a diesel issue, it's a Ford issue.

I agree with you. The Ford 3/4 ton diesel trucks we bought around 2002-2006 had nothing but troubles. Mostly computer issues. They were in the shop weekly for computer reset. Time wasted dealing with those flaky computerized emission systems.

ateixeira · February 2013

1978 Honda Accord

You should have gotten the 1978 GM diesel, those have legendary (un)reliability.

ateixeira · February 2013

Ford has good ideas but seems to take them out of the oven before they are fully baked. Fuel type no matter.

ruking1 · February 2013

Ah you are a from the hot frying pan jump into the fire advocate. ? With friends like you, who would need enemies?

gagrice · February 2013

The issue with the 1.6 EcoBoost is with the cooling system. So what? The result is also bad.

Why just a software update to fix if it is a cooling issue?

Emissions crap is still part of the power train.

The emissions on those VM diesels were good to go in the EU and gave good service. When they added crap to the existing power train the problems began. So yes Chrysler/Daimler/Jeep should have done more testing before dumping them on the US buyers. I do believe that our overly ambitious EPA/CARB must shoulder some of the responsibility. They cannot seem to work with the rest of the World on emissions. They have no problem bending over for the WTO and all the food allowed into the USA, without inspection. I think it proves our government DOES NOT want to save on fossil fuel. Or they would have embraced diesel vehicles with open arms and aligned themselves with the automakers world wide.

ateixeira · February 2013

Software affects everything. Shift points - high revs produce lots more heat for starters. Running temp is an input and they can limit revs or put it in limp-home mode before catastrophic engine fire occurs.

Plus - that's Ford's spin on matters. Easy to say "software glitch" instead of we are known for producing red-hot-engines!

As for the Government, they do seem to have an unwritten agreement with Europe - they get the diesels and the US promotes other alternatives.

gagrice · February 2013

You should have gotten the 1978 GM diesel, those have legendary (un)reliability.

I needed cheaper transportation as I was having to drive 150 miles a day to find work. I wanted a Dasher diesel and the wait period was over a year. So the Accord seemed like a good alternative. Talk about a cooling system that was worthless look no further than the Honda Accord. Flaky electronics. Cruise that never worked. Poor snow handling, I thought it would be like owning a Saab FWD. Not even close.

ateixeira · February 2013

Enough people had a different experience that the Accord slowly took over and became the best selling car.

ruking1 · February 2013

And the CA enviro cons are getting doses of their own medicines.

WSJ Wed. Feb 27, 2013, pg A3

"CA Girds for Electricity WOES".

Seems like they like to limit both conventional plants (like nat gas plants) and won't let people build wind and solar enough to support "flexibility" despite advocating .... WIND & SOLAR to come to PAR with demand. Interesting article.

gagrice · February 2013

they get the diesels and the US promotes other alternatives.

I would bet Prius sales are poor in the EU where they have a choice. In fact if not for Japanese Prius sales they would not be a glitch on the market.
2012 through October sales
Japan = 279,000
USA = 126,000
EU = 16,700
Not a high percentage of 11 million vehicles sold in the EU. I would bet VW sold more diesels in the USA than Toyota sold Prii in the EU. When given a choice what will the smart buyer pick???

PS
John Kerry said Americans have a right to be STUPID.

gagrice · February 2013

won't let people build wind and solar despite advocating

It is time for me to get out of CA for sure.

stever · February 2013

You can't assume that all "greenies" agree on every issue any more than voters agree with every position of the party they vote for or church goers agree with every tenet of their religion.

Life is complicated. :shades:

Here's one for you Californians:

Los Angeles Diesel Extends Four-Month High on Tight Supplies (Bloomberg.com)

ruking1 · February 2013

It would also seem that in NYC where a Prius would make logical taxicab sense, it is .... ILLOGICAL !!!! Of app 13,000 medallions 18 are Prius's. (.00138)

link title

gagrice · February 2013

Enough people had a different experience that the Accord slowly took over and became the best selling car.

In the early 1980s a girlfriend had a Civic CRX and I loved driving that car. Just too small to be practical. I owned a full sized Bronco at that time that was a great vehicle for out at Lake Havasu where I was living. It would have been difficult hauling my 22 foot day cruiser in and out of the lake with a Honda anything. So yes Honda has had it's moments, be they few and far between.

flightnurse · February 2013

The gas Tiguan gas turbo averages 21, when the TDi version arrives I'm sure it will get much better than 21. Now with the escape, I would have assumed it would have gotten much better than 21, we had a nissan Rogue, which we averaged 26. So is a boosted smaller engine better?

flightnurse · February 2013

Interesting, I never wrote that the MKS averaged 21.... Why are you misquoting me?

The MKS I had averaged 16. which was horrible. My comments was basically to talk about how the engines run, which they do very well, but the MPG isn't there since ford is pushing the little engine with big HP and high MPG..

crkyolfrt · February 2013

While watching those vids, the usual derailment took place..

And came across this below..

The comment by Nick is true..just as an FYI for any diesel owners caught somewhere really cold and need it to go.

I used to do this with my truck when I was somewhere I couldn't plug it in, rather than use ether. Had a Cat 3406B (prior to electronics) and this theory will work in any diesel. The idea is that you don't have unlimited battery reserves so patience is on your side. You try to start, then sit and wait 30 sec or so for that heat created to start to warm the CC. Try again, sit and wait etc..until you realize that with some fuel intro'd, the crank speed will start to speed on its own and this is when you are not going to run out of battery, but also that you are not overheating the started motor. When it starts to gallop during the crank, that is a very good feeling limme tell ya..

In this c/p below, the youtube is of a guy starting a 6.2 GM at -11. Earlier during the night he said it was -22 so the day had started to warm a little. IMO, the only reason to buy black...if you clean the snow off the hood and let the sun start to heat the EC while you go in and eat breakfast..it helps too. Schoolbuses up here in Cda have black hoods for this very reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIPtosz-wdY

Nick May 8 months ago
One tip of advice. Dont start a cold diesel with your foolt to the floor for 2 reasons. #1 its damaging the motor #2 that extra fuel are shooting in with your foot to the floor is actually keeping the cylinders cool. Remember you need heat to light a diesel. If you can make a fuel shut off switch, crank the motor with no fuel for 30 sec. wait another 30sec and the heat of the compression will heat the block then crank with fuel and it will start easier. Trust a diesel tech.

gagrice · February 2013

but the MPG isn't there since ford is pushing the little engine with big HP and high MPG..

That was my understanding from your post. The consensus seems to be the eco boost engines are quite peppy, just don't deliver the mileage promised. 0-60 MPH is much further down my list than MPG.

flightnurse · February 2013

The 2013 V-6 Accord is rated at 16 city 39 highway and 26 overall (CR for all numbers for consistency).

Interesting where are you getting these numbers for the V6 accord? Since honda's web site shows the 4 cyl as getting 27 city and 36 freeway*, and you are tell me and the world that that V6 is WAY worse city and better highway MPG... Nice try..

* 24 city/34 highway/28 combined mpg rating for 4-cylinder Sedan 6MT models. 27 city/36 highway/30 combined mpg rating for Sedan CVT models. 26 city/35 highway/29 combined mpg rating for Sport Sedan CVT models. 21 city/34 highway/25 combined mpg rating for V-6 Sedan models. Based on 2013 EPA mileage ratings. Use for comparison purposes only. Your actual mileage will vary depending on how you drive and maintain your vehicle. This is from the hondas web site.

I can tell you that the mid-range punch and off the line power for the Ecoboost is far better that the Honda engines. That is where most people use the power, the passing power of the MKS was very impressive, a couple of times I could pass a couple of cars very easy. I agree that the MPG numbers aren't there for Ford, and I have been told by one of the engine engineers that the Fusion has been given a green light for a turbo diesel. I wasn't told which one, hopefully it is there 2.2L engine.

ruking1 · February 2013

I think you have seen me write enough to say or know that it depends on your priorities and goals. So I would ask: what say ye?

flightnurse · February 2013

Overall I was impressed with the Escape, it was faster than our Rogue, but the Rogue got better MPG.

ateixeira · February 2013

Dunno, Prius is the best selling car in CA (isn't that where you live?) and the 3rd best in the world.

Focus and Corolla still outsell it. No idea what the best selling diesel is.

Would be interesting to know that, and also which is the best selling diesel outside of Europe.

ruking1 · February 2013

Given that NYC taxicab providers also have access to the Nissan Roque, why did they chose the Ford Escape (NYC taxicab link posted earlier.) ?

ateixeira · February 2013

Taxis are usually full-sized, the Prius is too small. Toyota supplies more Siennas than anything else.

EnviroCab uses Camry hybrids here in DC.

The NV200 is taking over with a 2l gasser, though in Europe it comes with a 1.5l diesel.

ateixeira · February 2013

hauling my 22 foot day cruiser in and out of the lake

Not Honda's niche.

Even the Ridgeline is more Harry Homeowner than Joe American Boat towing guy.

ateixeira · February 2013

Already corrected above.

ateixeira · February 2013

Should diesel buyers get special training, then?

Seems like a lot to ask.

ateixeira · February 2013

Rogue is way too small to serve as a taxi. Plus visibility is horrible.

The previous Escape was roomy for a compact crossover, far more so than the Rogue. I'm sure Ford jumped through all sorts of hoops (read: bribes) to get that approved by the NYC Taxi commission.

cdnpinhead · February 2013

I just used Honda as an example - Nissan, Toyota and probably Mazda are fairly similar.

Very well put-together post. Thanks.

I got excited about diesels 12 years ago when I rented my first one in Europe. I wanted to come home and buy one here. I couldn't then, and I can't now, for the most part. VW is the shining hope, but BMW and Merc bring only the biggest stuff and, to date, no one else brings anything.

fintail · February 2013

Renting the cars in Europe can really open some eyes. I've rented a few diesels there myself, and always enjoyed it. It might have urged me a little to try one out for myself. I am now 10 days into the diesel world, and no complaints about the performance or noise etc. MB is slowly going to roll out some 4cyl models, I am curious as to how they will perform here.

Something else interesting, I have noticed some local stations pricing diesel equal to or 5 cents above premium. Nice.

cdnpinhead · February 2013

John Kerry said Americans have a right to be STUPID.

It's more an obligation.

gagrice · February 2013

Dunno, Prius is the best selling car in CA (isn't that where you live?) and the 3rd best in the world.

CA I believe. We are the state with the most Fruits, Nuts and Flakes. World wide I would be real surprised. I don't think they sold as many Prius world wide last year as Ford sold F150s in the USA. In fact I am sure they did not. According to Wiki through October Prius sold 425K world wide and Ford sold 520k PU trucks in the USA. Again only in the US and Japan is the Prius popular. The two countries that have very few alternative choices. If chicken is all that is sold you eat chicken or go vegan.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

Limme guess...you're not on this forum to support diesels?

Someone's been messing with your corn flakes all week haven't they?

Both rhetorical questions, btw..

dudleyr · February 2013

"And to be on-topic, there was a diesel Camry - I've seen one. "

I remember those - they even had an AWD Camry. Not sure if your could get both together.

"The 2013 V-6 Accord is rated at 16 city 39 highway and 26 overall (CR for all numbers for consistency).

"Interesting where are you getting these numbers for the V6 accord? Since honda's web site shows the 4 cyl as getting 27 city and 36 freeway*, and you are tell me and the world that that V6 is WAY worse city and better highway MPG... Nice try.. " "

Pretty sure I mentioned that the numbers came from Consumer Reports (CR) several times (You even included it when you quoted me). Those are actual measured numbers on real roads calculated the same way for every car they test. There is a long description of exact test methods on their website. Honda uses EPA numbers which can be gamed (Ford, Hyundai etc.). CR does not allow any manufacturer to use their numbers.

Yes EPA highway numbers can be very easy to beat - read the posts on this thread by the regulars who get 50+ mpg in a "40" mpg Jetta or 30 plus mpg in a "25?" mpg Toureg. EPA city numbers do not reflect true gridlock bumper to bumper with lots of idling - the CR test is much more rigorous and is almost always below the EPA numbers.

fintail · February 2013

Oh yeah, the All-Trac. I think from maybe 1988-90 or so. Diesel made it til 1986, I think - right around that year, non-German diesel cars in the NA market pretty much vanished.

gagrice · February 2013

diesel equal to or 5 cents above premium. Nice.

San Diego diesel averages 10 cents over RUG and 10 cents less than premium. My Costco is at $4.09 and the station close by sells diesel for $4.16. Makes a diesel vehicle more and more enticing.

dudleyr · February 2013

Ford does sell a lot of trucks, but the Prius is a car.

ateixeira · February 2013

Ford sold 520k PU trucks in the USA

Then Prius outsold it, here's why.

F "series" includes 150 all the way on up, HD trucks and chassis.

If we include Prius plug-in, Prius C, and Prius V sales, which we should since we are doing that for the F "series", then Prius is #3 globally.

ateixeira · February 2013

to support diesels?

So this is a thread for biased people only?

EcoBoost engines are being bashed and this is not a DI-Turbo gasser thread.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

I said they were rhetorical questions!

But I knew you would assume I was indicating a bias and if you reread what I said, you will see that it is indeed, bias-free. A loaded question I will admit, but no one put a gun to your head..

ateixeira · February 2013

I don't eat corn flakes, but the pebbles have been kinda fruity lately.

gagrice · February 2013

If you include all the trucks Ford sold 829k last year in the USA. Prius sold 236k all models combined in the USA. Maybe you can find the total WW figures. My guess is Prius is no where close to the 3rd best selling vehicle WW. Fusion and Focus both outsold the Prius in the US. So did Camry, Corolla, Accord, Civic, Altima. Even the Sonata came within 6k of the Prius. At best the Prius is the 7th best selling car in the USA. No one else buys them but the Japanese. And that was with big government subsidies. You are buying into the Green agenda spin.

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/Dec12sales.pdf

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/december+2012+sales+chart.htm

ateixeira · February 2013

Some of those don't even sell outside the USA.

Ford trucks - doesn't that include vans and other models? I wouldn't call that one model.

Civic may be close, but they sell more Fits in Japan.

Focus beat the Prius, that's one the models I mentioned. That and the Corolla (including Verso/Auris and Matrix).

Altima, Accord, and Camry are largely American phenomena, I bet global sales aren't even close for large cars like that.

Remember that in places like South American you'll see tons of B- and C-segment cars but very few mid-sizers. I'm sure Ford sells more black Ranger diesels than all Accords and Camrys. 10 times over.

ateixeira · February 2013

Went looking for a source, Autoblog says it took them 14 months to go from 3 million to 4 million:

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/22/toyota-sells-over-four-million-hybrids-worl- - dwide/

That pace is 857k/year, which indeed beats the F series' 645k sales per year.

Gas prices have only trended up so my guess is they'll stretch that lead.

We can argue about subsidies in the green thread but think about all the fossil fuel subsidies for farmers, for example, which are what allow all those F series sales.

We're burning E10, too, remember how strong the corn lobby is, helping ethanol.

gagrice · February 2013

Went looking for a source, Autoblog says it took them 14 months to go from 3 million to 4 million:

We were talking Prius, now total hybrids from Toyota. According to the Chart on Wiki, from 1997 until october 2012 2.8 million Prius were sold. That is great but when you compare it on the World stage where a Corolla may not be called a Corolla in some markets the water gets muddied. Yes hybrid sales are good in NON diesel countries like the USA and Japan. Even the junky Honda hybrids have sold a million units.

A fair comparison would be how many diesel cars are sold WW compared to hybrid cars.

ruking1 · February 2013

Just in the European markets there are 270+ M units with 50% + units being diesel, that is 135 M + of all stripes, as a base line. The American passenger car population is app 258. M so @ 5% we are @ app 12.9 M diesels of all stripes. App 50% of those (6.45 M) are the so called Am (light trucks) diesels. This leaves app 6.45 passenger car diesels like Touareg, Jetta, MB, BMW,Passat.

gagrice · February 2013

If Toyota has sold 4 million hybrids since 1997, about half were probably sold in the USA. I would bet more than 2 million diesels are on the roads of the US. I see an awful lot of 3/4 ton diesel PU trucks in CA. When comparing power sources I would think it is an apples to apples comparison.

After all it has been diesel vs hybrid on Edmunds since at least 1998. For me I did my hybrid period. Back to what works best for me, that is diesel. No more gassers in my future.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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