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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    An outfit called lab4 surveyed 500 US car buyers between Feb. 10 - 13, 2013.

    66% are considering buying a hybrid for their next car purchase. No word about diesel consideration but the lack of that info on the graphic may be telling.

    That kind of market research is likely driving decisions around the car companies about whether to chase VW and MB (and Chrysler?) into the diesel market here.

    This is kind of funny - everyone is hedging their bets:

    Europeans Are Getting Into Hybrids Just As The US Turns To Diesels (businessinsider.com)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    total hybrids from Toyota

    Good point, but Prius is probably 90% of those. Autoblog said they're 3rd in the world and we haven't been able to disprove that, and the numbers still do add up, so I believe it.

    A fair comparison would be how many diesel cars are sold WW compared to hybrid cars

    On that I don't quite agree. We can compare diesel vs. gassers, or gas+electric to gas+diesel hybrids.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Even VW has a hybrid version of their Jetta now.

    My dad has a gen III Prius and my mom has a JSW TDI. I have driven both extensively. I would/did not buy either because the Jetta is too small and the Prius does not come with a manual. While the VW is unquestionably more fun to drive, it can't touch the mpg of the Prius for suburban dc driving. The long term mpg on the Jetta is usually in the mid to upper thirties while it is in the mid 50's on the Prius.

    Now the diff isn't really that great because my mom drives faster, but when I drive both cars I always do better in the Prius. For example I drove from the beltway into dc on 66 in the Jetta and got a very nice 52 mpg, but on similar drives in the Prius I can get 60 mpg. I am sure a stick shift Jetta would do better, but I still don't think it would beat the Prius.

    I was totally against the Prius for gen I. It barely got better mpg than a corolla was overweight, cramped inside and cost quite a bit more. But Toyota made a very smart move for gen II by going to a hatch back they created a niche they did not have elsewhere. Now the car had much more space than a corolla and was much more versitile. The also gave it more power and better efficiency - suddenly the Prius made sense. Gen II took that one step further with a bigger engine and better mpg still. The Prius is a solid vehicle if you want good mpg and low total cost of ownership. It may not be fun to drive, but it is fun seeing how well you can do on gas.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I thought it was interesting more people used KBB than Edmund's for car research. I rarely use them unless I want a second opinion on a used car value.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Funny, Steve. The grass is always greener on the other side.

    I still wonder if Europe won't prefer diesel+electric hybrids (rather than gas+electric).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    The long term mpg on the Jetta is usually in the mid to upper thirties while it is in the mid 50's on the Prius.

    Let's see if a certain person does the math on that. ;)

    Prius didn't get serious until Gen II, for sure. The first one was a weak effort.

    I test drove one (Gen III) a couple of weekends ago and it's probably the most underestimated car on the planet, particularly by enthusiasts. Especially by Edmunds members.

    I'm keeping my Miata, though. You only live once.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    suddenly the Prius made sense.

    I have recommended the Prius to a lot more people than the VW TDI. I would not want one because they are ugly, rough riding and noisy. Of course they are not an SUV or PU so that settles it. For a city suburban commuter the Prius is hard to beat. For long highway commuters I recommend the VW TDI.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited February 2013
    The problem with the Prius is that you have to look at it - both inside and outside. From an aesthetic standpoint, it fails for enthusiasts. Just because it might be quick off the line in specific situations doesn't mean it will impress an enthusiast either - I doubt you took it hard into any corners, performed mid range acceleration tests, etc. It does what it was designed for very well, but it wasn't designed to be an enthusiast's choice. It's the ultimate appliance.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    ..."Let's see if a certain person does the math on that."....

    Pretty simple stuff for DC traffic: a 75 mpg VW TDI they do NOT allow into the country. How many Prius do you all see in the DC area that has 5 folks in the vehicle? AGAIN pretty simple reason actually, given the Prius only gets 50's . You yourself speculate it is too small for taxi use!! ;) :lemon: :shades: You know why they buy it in CA? Of course you do. It makes/made one eligible to buy the ONE DRIVER commute lane sticker !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The issue is totally MOOT: PURE Hollywood/DC symbolic eco HYPOCRISY !!!!! I bet GM does doesn't advertise that they probably sell THE most XXL Suburbans/Tahoes etc. in the DC area. How many fat congressmen/women can you fit in a Prius? And in the sardine packing area in the rear? Oh PLEEZE, can we talk here?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Funny. It's certainly not pretty, but I respect the functional design.

    Inside I don't like the center-mounted gauges, but I found something interesting - it's pretty easy to mount my Garmin where the gauges should be. Even hiding the wires would be simple.

    Mine was an urban test drive but it was responsive off the line and yes even passing. Curvy roads are illegal inside the beltway. ;)

    As for something for enthusiasts, let's see a GTD make it over here.

    I will say this - I liked the Prius a lot more than the Prius c.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Polo TDI takes 14 seconds to reach highway speeds.

    That makes a Prius c seem fast.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    edited February 2013
    " Curvy roads are illegal inside the beltway."

    Should have taken it through rock creek park. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    How much more functional is it than say a VW TDi wagon or even a diesel sedan with fold down seats? For 99% of drivers, seems like a wash. And that dashboard/center stack - I just couldn't do it. Cool idea about the nav, but being a neat freak, I prefer an integrated unit anyway :shades: I suspect those little wheels would be flying off when tossed into an on/off ramp at 50mph, too.

    Indeed, bring on the GTD.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    ..."Funny. It's certainly not pretty, but I respect the functional design. "...

    AND you just posted you only live once and will keep your (GAS) guzzler Miata !! ;) :lemon:

    All the times Prius was in the running (mine) I have not gone with it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I used to commute that way, and that was fun. Traffic moves too slowly, though. 25mpg limits. It's fun @ 40 or so.

    There are many side roads and one in particular, where the horse stables are, has a niiice decreasing radius turn on a hill. Fun!

    Problem is there is traffic on weekdays, and they open it for bikes on weekends, so basically unless you go at bizarre hours you can't really enjoy it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    seems like a wash

    But the JSW costs a lot more. A Prius with Navi+Entune is 22 something, the VeeDub would be high 20s (DSG+Navi). Fitzmall has both VW and Toyota so fairly easy to compare local prices.

    And then the diesel fuel costs a bunch more around here.

    I'm waiting for the new Golf to sample the TDI, the idea that it's lighter and more efficient sounds good.

    We sat in a TDI at the auto show and the family veto'd it quick. It's notably smaller than the Prius. The JSW is more comparable. The Prius c has about the same passenger space as the Golf.

    The family liked the Prius V but it's too big for my tastes. I didn't even drive it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You just recommended a not-available-for-US-sale diesel that is among the slowest cars on earth.

    I'll happily keep my Miata, yes.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    Yes, I am glad you agree with me they do not let it into the country and for obvious reasons. You current DC folks wax endlessly about the rolling parking lot nature of WASH DC. commute traffic. One reason why long ago I decided against living there. Great place to have started and plied a lobbyist corporation. And you need 4 sec or less zero to sixty because?....

    Here I go slowly alone in a slow diesel @ 85 mph + in the SLOW lane getting 30/40+ /50 mpg (depending on which diesel obviously, probably not obvious to one in particular), being passed by LEOS and most everybody else except slower moving loaded tractor trailers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But then you miss the swampy weather and the spoiled babies on the Hill.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Prius V would be the first of that breed on my list just because it looks like a pretty ordinary tall wagon/small van design, not as dorky. Price isn't a big concern, if it was, I wouldn't be looking at brand new cars to begin with :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    ..."But then you miss the swampy weather and the spoiled babies on the Hill."...

    I don't think even you believe that, even as you put that in print. :P

    Not sure why you are droning on and on about an off the diesel topic, gasser hybrid?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It offers the panoramic moonroof that I want, too, but only on fully loaded models.

    If it were a stand-alone option on the base model, I'd test drive it.

    Ford offers the pano as a stand-alone option on the C-Max, FWIW.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, assessing your driving needs, in the area you live in, are a very important part of evaluating whether or not a diesel is ideal for your given situation.

    Reviewers borrow a TDI for a week and go on vacation. That's fine for the couple weeks or so when you do that, but what about the 50 weeks when you're working?

    Just look at the real-world Prius vs. Jetta wagon TDI mileage here in the DC metro area.

    There are good jobs and good schools here. Once I retire, though, I'll probably bail, or at least move to Annapolis or something.

    Until then I have to live with the reality of heavy urban traffic.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I thought it was interesting more people used KBB than Edmund's for car research. I rarely use them unless I want a second opinion on a used car value.

    I got there via a Mashable link that recommended paying CR for invoice information.

    So yeah, the whole study is pretty suspect. :shades:

    (btw, I think it's okay to compare diesels with gassers or gasser hybrids. The question asks what it would take for you to buy a diesel, so that implies you are looking at alternatives).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Plus, KBB values are so high, it's what you should use when you're selling because you can advertise "below KBB value". Unrealistic from what I've seen.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fapIGc3lWH4&feature=share&list=UU6S0jAvcapqJ48ZzL- fva12g

    Grand Cherokee diesel video.

    0-60 in 7.7s is solid, but $57k is a bit spendy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You compare gassers all the time, in fact that's usually when I have to chime in and point out how you managed to find such outliers.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    My point exactly, in comparison to diesels. YOU never had a diesel and favor gassers and gasser hybrids. This of course is great, in gasser, gasser hybrid threads. Why would you even consider a diesel? If I were you, I would not.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    ..."but $57k is a bit spendy."...

    So can $57k gassers? Or because they are gassers 57k to 60,2 k is actually LESS?? !!

    "2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 - MSRP $60,295"
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The diesel only comes in the top two trim levels, so that raises the entry point for Gary, who is considering that vehicle.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    Given his postings, I am swagging it will take an OVERWHELMING diesel Jeep package to go to Am iron even with MB diesel. Anything he has already looked at has a better P/P ratio. Seems Jeep is trying to get as much $'s as they can, given MB/BMW/VW's success/es.

    The WSJ (?) made a BIG deal about the Kokomo, IN (Beach Boy's song fame) transmission plant for the new 8 speed A/T and a bump in jobs. Diesels were not specifically mentioned. While I wish them EVERY success, the record is hard to overcome. The NEW 8 speed A/T if it passes the durability and reliability hoops will be a fine cornerstone going forward. While I didn't read them to indicate, it is probably a license from ZF.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    0-60 in 7.7s is solid, but $57k is a bit spendy.

    I think the guy was impressed. To get the ML350 Bluetech with real leather etc, would be at least that much. Thanks for the Video....May as well enjoy the money. It is losing value sitting in the bank.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    The "plain ole" Cherokee will get a 9 speed.

    Chrysler Ramps Up Production of Eight- and Nine-Speed Transmissions

    When the automakers routinely hit 10-speeds, I'm going to go full circle, sell my bike and get a fixie. ;)

    In the news:

    Jeep Wrangler diesel likely after 2015 model refresh (autoblog.com)

    Meanwhile, over the pond, "The French government is planning on raising taxes on diesel fuel, branding it a “health issue”, much to the chagrin of consumers and the country’s auto industry.

    France’s environment minister, Delphine Bartho, told French radio (via Bloomberg) that a study by the WHO showed that diesel fumes presented a significant health hazard, and the French government would move to raise taxes on the fuel to help soften demand."

    France Hikes Taxes On Diesel Fuel, Auto Makers Protest (thetruthaboutcars.com)

    The "rest" of the story is pretty interesting since "Current Euro 5 standards for diesel engines are exceedingly tough, and PSA already has diesel powered models capable of emitting a Prius-like 100 grams of CO2 per km."

    Follow the (tax) money.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    While I didn't read them to indicate, it is probably a license from ZF.

    The first ones will come from ZF in Germany. I imagine they will license the design.

    "As you know, this is the sole region where we manufacture transmissions," said Sergio Marchionne, Chrysler chairman. "And including all of the nearby facilities, it will be the largest transmission installation in the world."

    The announcement means new jobs, lots of them.

    More than 1,200 people will be hired by the time the expansion is complete at the end of 2014, bringing Chrysler's area employment to more than 7,000 people.

    Gov. Mike Pence said it's a comeback story for the company and the area and a sign that Indiana continues to excel at manufacturing.

    http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/chrysler-to-bring-1250-jobs-to-kok- omo-tipton-transmission-plants
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    ..."Chrysler did not respond immediately to queries from Edmunds asking about production plans for the nine-speed transmission.

    The Kokomo, Indiana-built eight-speed transmission is set for the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Charger. Chrysler noted that the 2013 Dodge Charger is the first domestic sport sedan to feature an eight-speed automatic transmission."...

    I'd say that unless you have insider information to the contrary, as a minimum a wait and/to see approach is probably in order. Indeed www.edmunds.com data indicates ... " a new eight-speed transmission and a 3.0-liter diesel engine."...

    I do not have any ZF 8/9 speed AT's experiences (that I know of) but I am pretty satisfied with the Aisin 8 speed A/T. On other sites, there are certainly folks that have minor to serious issues with it. I had ZERO issues initially. Once past my wait and see approach, STILL have ZERO issues and like it a lot. It did take a certain amount of time to better "integrate" the 2 extra gears. Going back to anything less seems, a year later almost incomprehensible.

    In that sense, it has been well mated (etc.etc) with the 3.0 TDI. It is seamless to the less involved passenger car users. BUT is plenty well adapted for those more "engaged". I am guessing an extra gear or 9 speed will probably be geared for better mpg and cruising rpm.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Could be but it's all over the news. (Detroit News)

    Ditto the Detroit Free Press.

    Land Rover beat them to it though. (Washington Post)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited February 2013
    If it is a ZF, it will probably be a good trans. Also probably one of the reasons they think they are going to gouge the livin' daylights outta any prospective buyers.
    57k to start?? That is outrageous..it is just a lousy pc of bleep ChryJeep..

    That is darn close to a demo ML350 which would come with an entire extra year of wty, over the JGC. Not to mention, just being a MB, with enjoyment expectations being met (as opposed to hoped for) when you spend that kinda money..

    I must admit, it really irks me when NA mfrs do that...you're already forced to anti up more bucks for the diesel..why add in$ult upon injury by also forcing you into the top trims? Then they'll blame poor sales on it being a diesel..Idiots.. :mad:

    edit- or even a Touareg...the V Dub must also be a far more enjoyable overall pkg than anything Jeep could come up with..especially in ride/handling and quietness.
    edit2- which also has an extra year wty..
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    While not quite YET related to Jeep diesels, here is an article talking about probably MORE than what most folks wanted to know about A/T's.

    A/T 9 speed

    Here is a 2007 Maylasian article about the 8 speed A/T ZF

    link title

    I do not have a literal clue about how it might be configured for the US market.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Worst mileage yet for the evening commute - 21.8. This is because my average speed was 11mph. Hit every red light but one, which created some traffic backups. Kudos to our oxymoronically-named civil engineers!
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Ya, that's a good read. I've read it before..
    And there's the reason it's (the 9 sp) not getting matched up to the 3.0 diesel. It's just too light.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Still tho, fin..would have been a lot worse idling start stopping a gas job. And if you're gonna be in traffic like that, at least you're coddled.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Yeah. The old car would have been around 13. At least I was irritated in comfort :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2013
    Yes, I have mentioned it before. While "arcane", the Aisin in the VW T does have a 627 # ft of torque handling capacity. Its' TDI throws out 406 # ft, so that converts to app 54% (extra) safety room.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    While we are on the subject, talk to us about the MB's A/T.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    It feels pretty normal - I notice it shifting, but it is faint, I don't have the shift points memorized yet. I drive it in the 2nd gear start mode, as I want it to be mellow. I have noticed it downshifts and engine brakes when you let off the gas, which I kind of like.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have noticed it downshifts and engine brakes when you let off the gas, which I kind of like.

    That is what I did not like with the GL350 Bluetech I drove. I like a car to free wheel when I let off the throttle. I like to downshift if I want engine braking. For me it slowed the vehicle way too fast. The BMW X5 diesel did not do that. If ZF supplies BMW transmission, why don't they have the latest. And it looks like ZF is building a factory in SC.

    Most of the transmissions used by Chrysler will be made at the automaker’s Kokomo, Indiana, Transmission Plant but some will be built by ZF itself at a new transmission plant in Greenville, South Carolina. Chrysler is investing $300 million in the Kokomo plant. The new ZF facility, the first ZF plant to make car transmissions in the USA, will also make the 9-speed automatic transmission for transverse-mounted engine applications that was presented at the North American International Auto Show
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    It's not $57k to start, that is for the fully loaded version, it is ( an admittedly not much better) $47k for one with AWD ( or close to that don't have the exact number here, but it s at least $10k less than what you are using). That said it may still be too high, but when Motor Trend compared similarly equipped versions the jeep was about $2000 less than the VW, is that enough of a difference? Only time will tell ( and until a comaprisn test is done by a magazine and /or one of us, we won't know which one is really supposed to be the better drive)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2013
    I think everyone would agree, for the (2013) Jeep TDI (or whatever they are calling it) in question at this time, almost everything is subject to speculation. Cars.com shows ZERO inventory.

    I haven't a clue if one can go to the dealer, plunk order deposits down, put one's name on one: off either inventory or assembly line.

    Since some would say the (2013) VW Touareg TDI would be ONE of the Jeep's competitors, Cars.com shows 621 units inventory: prices listed @ 45.5k to 61.2k.

    It is hard to understand (from an over all point of view) why they didn't start this (inventory roll out) PRE 2013 model year? :surprise: It might be a case of better late but earlier somewhat to the party than not at all.? Or maybe a planned "SOFT" opening. But then on the other hand, its nice to tell folks you are hyperventilating because you can not keep up with the (artificially) high demand, rather than having months of inventory one is having trouble.... selling. GM, Chrysler & FORD have almost perpetually been there. If they are smart, they will try NOT to repeat the process.

    CNBC just aired a piece where some auto sector pundit estimated a 15 to 15.5 M unit 2013 MY sales, arguably the best (projection) since the crash (10.5 M units or app 47.8% BETTER)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I don't mind it. As traffic is so horrible here, it's not always possible to do much free wheeling anyway. And it reminds me of my old car, which behaves the same way. If we could just get a nice sunny Sunday, I will take it out for a real cruise and see how it performs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    my average speed was 11mph

    Are you visiting DC? ;)
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