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  • beethovengirlbeethovengirl Member Posts: 13
    There are no changes in the 2013.

    I'm planning on keeping it more than 6 years, and I'd think that the re-sale value difference will be less than $1100 in, say, 10 years...
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    For what it is worth, in your position, I would buy the 2012, assuming you can get a fairly substantial discount over the 2013.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    timadams didn't give you a "lecture". He gave you solid advice and answers to the questions YOU asked!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Oh, I think we can let this go and just call it even. I can see why uga91 was offended by the suggestion that he took out a 72-month loan because he bought more car than he could afford. I probably would be too.

    However, I can also see why the assumption was made, since most cases we see posted around here involving a longer-term loan are, indeed, cases in which the buyer couldn't otherwise afford the payment. Everyone seems to be at peace now, in any case.

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  • wsb2wsb2 Member Posts: 2
    Nalley Audi North Atlanta in Roswell GA is requiring all sales people to make 700 individual phone calls per month. If they do not make the required number of calls they will not receive all of their bonus money. This is written in to their pay plans which I have received a copy of from an employee. The dealership has 10 sales people. That is 7000 calls a month! They are harassing people who do not wish to be disturbed about a car purchase. In a world of Privacy Laws and Do Not Call lists I am sure that this policy is in violation of the existing laws. It is also highly unethical. I also have been informed that this type of harassment has been going on at all dealerships owned by the Asbury Automotive Group based in Duluth GA. They have about 90 dealers in the country with a dozen situated here in the Atlanta area. Please help stop this abuse.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    edited February 2013
    If you're a client of a dealership, whether in service or by purchasing a car, you would automatically get added onto a database and a call list.

    It's a privacy violation only if they actually sold your personal info to another company.

    Otherwise when sales and service transactions are done most customers ok the dealer to contact them with special deals and offers.

    Yes it can be annoying and from working in the car business for nearly 10 years I know it's like that everywhere.

    The only thing you can do is write a letter asking them not to contact you or speak with management directly and say that if they continue to harass you that you will not do business with them anymore.

    I worked at a Honda dealer where every 3 months the owner decided to do an "invite only private sale". Everybody who ever bought something or serviced something at that dealership was called, every 3 months. Ultimately the management eased up but it did tend ot tick off a small percentage of customers.

    Unfortunately these days, especially at this time of the year when walk ins are few and far in between and competition is fierce, management finds it more cost effective to get sales guys who are just hanging out to call existing clients rather than spend money to send out 10000 mailouts to the neighbourhood with little or no results.

    I would talk to the management and ask that they don't contact you. On our client followup system we had a few clients whose numbers were marked in red stating not to contact them. Good luck.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Sounds like excellent advice from someone who was in the biz for many years.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Also sounds like fairly clunky management. If a person works 25 days a week, that's 28 phone calls a DAY--at 10 minutes per, average, that's over 4.5 hours a day sitting on your butt rather than addressing people who come into the showroom, learning product, and enjoying your work well enough to want to come back next week.

    This is my idea of "micro-managing", which, in my opinion, builds an unimaginative, paranoid and dispirited sales force.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Usually phone calls last 1-2 minutes as people don't pick up or tell you they're not interested, or 5 minutes tops just to set an appointment and get the customer to come in.

    There is a lot of downtime at this time of the year in the showrooms. The last place I was at, you'd be lucky if in a 6 hour shift you talked to more than one customer. :sick:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • wsb2wsb2 Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2008 A4. I service there. Four people called me in two weeks!
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    One dealer I used to work at where I bought a car for myself, still calls me. It's usually new sales guys who don't know I worked there that start the pitch right away until I interrupt them.

    The managers don't look at lists, they just print them off and divide them up between sales guys.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The store I worked at required that we make "old owner" calls every six months for I think, the first two years after the sale.

    I used to hope I got an answering machine.

    Some wer happy to hear from me, others seemed to just wonder why I would call and a few (very few) seemed annoyed.

    The idea was to keep our name in front of them. It was probably better than doing nothing but not much better.

    I have heard that some stores have managers tear pages out of a phone book and make their salespeople cold call people. I couldn't/wouldn't do that.

    A lot of stores treat their salespeople like little kids or like garbage. One local Ford store makes their salespeople stand outside in a row calling "Up's" as cars drive into the lot. If it's a bad " up" like someone picking up parts or selling something, that salesperson go's to the end of the line.

    A lot of stores turn their staff over every six months. They don't care.

    Then there are the stores where the "managers" sit in a "tower" on the showroom floor and watch everything like a strict teacher.

    Horrible!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    edited February 2013
    isell, I think you were very fortunate to work where you did for your whole career and have such capable management and owners. Your timing was also good, as you were able to exit when you did. The internet has made it a lot tougher on the sales folks I think.

    Tesla, for example, does not sell through dealers at all, just direct to the consumer.

    I sure am glad I got out of the rat race a few years ago.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    edited February 2013
    Isell, are you still in the business? I haven't been on the forums for a few years so I lost track of what everyone's been up to.

    Speaking of turnover, the worst place I ever worked at was a GM dealer.

    All their ads bragged how the salesguys can make $100k/year etc....

    When I started on the 15th, the whole dealership had all of 13 cars out for the month between the 16 salesguys there, meaning they would probably finish with 30 units for the month.

    There are 12 guys on the floor and 4 doing their own thing.

    Out of the 12 on the floor, 7 of them (me included) started working there the day before, 3 others have been there less than a month, one has been there 3 months, and the most senior guy about 20 years.

    So more than 50% of sales guys are new and 90% of them 3 months or less.

    I gave it a shot and stood outside at the dealership entrance to catch an up for the 2 days I was there, including a 9-9 shift one of those days. About 4 sales dept customers pulled into the lot over the entire 3 days, all were be backs or had appointments except 1. The rest were service customers.

    I caught one sales call and got the guy to come in only for the management to blow him away because they didn't want to estimate payments on a used car unless he put a deposit first. :sick:

    Edit: my sales manager told me to keep myself busy by you guessed it, calling a list of customers he gave me to see if they want to trade their cars. :sick:

    I finished the shift and left never to return. :shades:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    i don't know if they still do it, but in Japan car sales were sometimes done door-to-door. Not a great business model for the USA.

    Ding-Dong! Hi, I'm selling BMW 3-Series today at a great discount? Care to buy one? LOL!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    That would work at my house. :blush:

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Hey, it's good to have you back!

    I decided to push the retirement button 2 1/2 years ago and I'm glad I did.

    Yes, I got VERY lucky when I picked the store where I worked. It's family owned and we were treated with respect. They didn't rip people off or play games. We were expected to sell 20 cars a month and the top half of the salespeople usually did. It wasn't uncommon for us to sell 400 plus cars a month new and used.

    We didn't run "screamer" ads and turnover was, I'm sure much less than other places.

    And, did leave at a good time. I keep in touch with some of my co-workers and they tell me that. My last couple of years I lost interest and patience and my results showed. I still made good money but my heart just wasn't in it.

    I do a lot of community volunteer work now and that keeps me busy.

    Who knows, after a lifetime of retail sales and management I just might get bored and do something part time.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Thanks, good to be back. YEah it's funny because a lot of guys I worked with who've been in the business for a while are looking at getting out.

    Although I'm always on the lookout for a management position, I would not go back to sales, it's just been a grind everywhere lately. :sick:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited February 2013
    Before my car selling days, I was a fairly high level manager with a Fortune 300 company. I had over 200 people to babysit and a 30 million dollar P& L.

    Through the years the pressure increased and we went through several "restructurings". People were having heart attacks and strokes.

    The final straw for me was the last restructuring when I was told I could take a lesser job and move at my expense to Chicago.

    I left and ended up making more money six miles from my home.

    I was home every night. No more constant travel, crowded airports, lonelyu hotel rooms and intense board room meetings.

    I tell our son..." The only thing for certain in your job will be change"

    The days of working your way up the ladder and staying with a company for 40 years, getting a gold watch and a pension are no more.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    The days of working your way up the ladder and staying with a company for 40 years, getting a gold watch and a pension are no more.

    I agree. I always have a few things on the go on the side, but right now I'm at home stress free and haven't been happier. I'm far from retirement as I'm in my 30s but now when coming up with ways of having an income I look at what will pay me the most with the least amount of stress. Especially after having a job with a fancy title at a local exotic car dealership but having to deal with a ton of stress and a GM that didn't "get" what my job involved as I was hired before he started.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • thatautguythatautguy Member Posts: 5
    Hi,

    I really needed to find some people that actually know what they're doing - because it's definitely not me :p

    I leased a new C-Max this past Wednesday; my wife and I just had a baby, and my car (a Fiesta) ended up being way, way too small for the baby + car seat + stroller + my wife's wheelchair.

    We actually went to look for the Escape, but I fell in love with the C-Max - and then I did just about everything wrong. I went for the SE because it had really everything I needed.

    My first big mistake was that I was in a rush - with my wife tired from her day, and the newborn baby with us (and fussy). I made the big, big mistake of focusing on the payment, not the price - and kind of accepted a payment that was about $90 more than my Fiesta's payment. I know we passingly talked about the sticker price of the car, but that was it.

    As I keep going, I realize I'm definitely the dumb one in this story - I know I did everything wrong in the book, and deserve whatever the outcome is if I really got ripped off...

    We signed the lease paperwork, etc. (which of course took forever, and both my wife and I made the mistake of reading through it but only focusing on the payments).

    When I got a chance to look at it in detail at home, it shows under "Agreed Value" of the car a price of $30,000 plus some change. The interest rate charged is super low, so the payment comes to what I expected - but it seems the dealer just flat out charged $4000 over sticker.

    I reached out to the sales person who said something about the residual value being the reason for the $30,000 price; after researching it more I really feel like I was just severely ripped off though.

    Again, I know: I did everything wrong in the book here, and I deserve whatever happened (I'm not an experienced car buyer). I just wanted to see if anyone can tell me if I really got ripped off as badly as I think I was.

    Mike
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Few questions:

    Were you leasing or financing your Fiesta? Did you have equity in it or were you upside down on it? If you were upside down on it it's quite possible the negative equity of the Fiesta was added onto the MSRP of the CMax making it seem more expensive than sticker price and the payments calculated from there.

    What was the sticker price of the CMax with the options you wanted? If you don't recall then go to Ford's website and build one on there to see.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    well, you would have to post all of the details to even jump to a conclusion.

    But, for your sake, I will say no, you did fine, now just enjoy the car for the next 3 years, your baby for the next 60 or so, and prepare better before your next purchase.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • thatautguythatautguy Member Posts: 5
    Hi!

    I was leasing the Fiesta. On the Lease agreement it shows up as a even trade, with no money owed.

    The sticker (I actually have it in front of me) is $25,995. I know they added a maintenance plan and Ford's "Wear Care" for a total of about $1100 to the purchase price.

    The complete terms for the lease are:

    Monthly payment $399
    36 months long, $3000 down, $1750 in dealer incentives, Residual Value $14817, 10,500 miles / year

    Gross Capitalized cost including Wear & Care, Maintenance, and acquisition fee is 31,925. Net Capitalized cost is $27175 after the money down.

    The money factor is 0.00075, so effectively about 1.8% financing charge.

    On the itemization of the cost, "agreed upon value of the vehicle", is listed as $30,125 + cost for maintenance plan, etc...
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I was leasing the Fiesta. On the Lease agreement it shows up as a even trade, with no money owed.

    When was your Fiesta lease supposed to end?

    Sometimes trade ins will show as "even trades" on paper because banks won't finance negative equity in some cases. However the negative equity is just added to the MSRP of the new vehicle and it shows the price to be higher than MSRP.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • thatautguythatautguy Member Posts: 5
    That's a good point - the lease was ending next year. The amount that was supposedly paid off on it by the dealership matches with the pay-off amount from my last lease statement; but I was wondering about that as well.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    edited February 2013
    Well there you go, the money owing did not vanish into thin air to put it bluntly.

    If your Fiesta lease you said was about $90/month less so let's say $300/month. Times it by at least 12 months and that's $3600 that you still owed.

    Take the $25999 + $3600 + protection package + other fees etc = your $31000 price.

    I can see that maybe there's a $1000 squeezed in there for extra dealer markup but it looks like most of the additional cost are your previous lease payments.

    When you go car shopping for your next car just get the dealer to break down all the costs/price etc... so that there wouldn't be any confusion.

    You can still go back to that dealer and just ask them to break it down for you. I bet you it will look very similiar to my estimate here.

    EDIT: If the dealer bought out your car then the numbers could also look like this (just guesstimating about your Fiesta):

    Payout amount $15600 ($12000 residual + $3600 payments)
    ACV (Trade in value of Fiesta) $12000
    Negative Equity $3600

    $25999 + $15600 payout less $12000 trade in value + protection pkg, fees etc... = $31000

    Either way the bottom line would be same as my first calculation.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • thatautguythatautguy Member Posts: 5
    That makes a TON of sense. I just wish someone had broken that down for me. The thing that confused me is that the lease contract makes it look like a completely even trade with no money owed on the lease; but your calculation really matches up 100% with my lease payment and what I would have paid for the next year....
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Most people do exactly what you did though., Come in, get excited about the car, and when they are told it'll only be $90 more than their other payment, they don't look at the rest of the other details, sign the paperwork and drive away. The good thing here is that it doesn't appear you got hosed. And as long as you're happy with the car and the payments, and the overall deal then it's all good. :shades:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Way to go boom...you leaving is going to be a huge loss for the car sales industry...and a big gain for where ever you land !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    edited February 2013
    Way to go boom...you leaving is going to be a huge loss for the car sales industry...and a big gain for where ever you land !!

    Thanks! I'm working for myself so it's a gain for myself :shades:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited February 2013
    Coming in late here...

    boomcheck as usual, gave you good advice. You were responsible for the remaining lease payments and they simply rolled that money into your new lease.

    Did I read that you bought some kind of extended warranty? If so, go back and have them cancel it. You don't need it since your car will be under warranty throughout the lease. That maintence package I'm guessing may not have been explained to you so make them do that. It may or may not be a good deal depending on how much they may have marked it up.

    It sounds like you have learned some lessons here. Buyer's Remorse is something probably all of have had at some point in our lives.

    EDIT: It looks like you were sold something called "wear care". I think I know
    what that is. If you bring the car back with more damage than is allowed, it covers that gap. It is probably VERY expensive insurance and you can probably live without it and lower your paymennts in the process.

    P.S. What the heck is a C-Max?
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    edited February 2013
    New Ford compact van/tall hatchback

    image

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    P.S. What the heck is a C-Max?

    Hybrid or Plug In Hybrid only.
  • thatautguythatautguy Member Posts: 5
    boomcheck, thank you again for restoring my sanity. I'm glad I'm just a mildly incompetent run-of-the-mill car buyer as opposed to the biggest [non-permissible content removed] in the universe ;) I actually showed in the system as having 13 payments to go; I think I always naively thought that when I stayed with the same leasing company, the cars just got more or less swapped and that's it.

    Either way, I'm glad I have the car now. Things actually fit, the ride is great, and I love the gas mileage I'm getting.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I'm glad I could be of help!

    One more thing to remember is to make sure your previous lease gets cancelled and that payments don't keep coming off your account. Sometimes it takes a few days for paperwork and payout to reach the leasing company and a few more before they stop payments on your previous lease, unless your Fiesta lease was with Ford and the CMax lease is also with Ford.

    But just make sure all of that is in order as I've seen it happen before due to the time it takes for payouts to be processed and old lease/finance payments still keep coming out when they shouldn't.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Looks good! Ford seems to be back on track!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    You could have maybe done better, but you could have done a lot worse. The best outcome is that you got a car that fits your needs and that you like. And, you didn't get hosed. We see plenty of folks who pay a bit too much, and then they don't really like their vehicle. That's not cool. Since leasing seems to suit you, you're always going to have a payment, so just make sure the payment isn't a budget issue for you.

    And - next time, stop by here FIRST and we'll help you understand the details before you drive away.

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    Bought a car and the finance manager contacted a couple of banks for rates.
    I've heard the dealer can make some money on these loans by marking up the rate.
    Is their profit a fee or it it paid for over time?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Usually, the bank will pay them a fee upfront for writing a loan above the wholesale rate. If the loan is paid off before a specified period of time (90 days, usually), there will be a charge back (the dealer won't get paid).

    How much is it? It's usually the whole extra amount, discounted for present value. As an example, BMWFS pays a BMW dealer 70% of the extra amount over the "buy rate".

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    Kyfdx,
    Thanks, exactly what I wanted to know!
    The finance manager pulled a bit of a fast one on me, so I'll refinance with another lender after I make my first payment.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nadia21nadia21 Member Posts: 6
    Hi everyone,

    I need to buy a used car as soon as possible. I can't really afford to spend anymore than $3000 on the car itself. I've researched a few options and came across two Nissan Sentras that are both available at the same used car dealership. One is a 2001 Nissan Sentra with about 150,000 miles, the other is a 2003 Nissan Sentra with about 130,000 miles (although it is bright yellow in color and I would prefer something not so flashy). They are both priced at $2995. I checked the VIN for both and they both come up clean with no accidents or any red flags. My concern is the final cost with tax included. The sales tax rate in Illinois is 8.75% which would mean the final cost of the car would be about $3270 or so which is more than I want to spend. (I know $270 doesn't seem like a big deal, but that would be pushing it for me right now). If I could get either car for $2800 then that would put me at about $3045 total, which I would be happy with. My question is, how should I negotiate to see about getting the car for $3000 total or less? What price should I start with? Should I tell them my limit up front? Also I know there are other fees that I have to take care of at the DMV, but are there any other fees normally at a used car dealership other than the sales tax? I will be paying in cash.

    P.S. I will also be paying a mechanic to do an inspection on both cars which I know will run me at least another $100. The mechanic's fees along with the DMV fees are exactly why I don't want to spend more than $3000 on the car itself.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I'd start with an offer slightly lower than your limit so $2400 or $2500. See if they counter offer at a lower number and if you have to go up, go up in small increments only, and be firm with those numbers. From $2500 go up to $2600 and be firm. If they are responding to your offers then that means they have room to move. If they are not then they might be firm on the price. You might get a better deal on the yellow one as that's not an easy color to sell. Also if both cars had a regular price of something like $3499 or $3999 and $2995 is the sale price then it might be hard getting it down any lower. But doesn't hurt to ask or try.

    Now even if they lower the price down to $2800 very quickly and you're say at $2650, see if you can get it down a little bit lower. Hit them back at $2700 or $2725 and say that's your bottom line. You might even be able to get it for below your limit.

    When you agree on the price make sure you have a "subject to your mechanical inspection" clause in there. Make sure the dealer is ok with giving you the car for a few hours so that you can get it inspected. I would ask for this ahead of negotiations.

    Good luck.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • nadia21nadia21 Member Posts: 6
    Thank you so much! Are there any other fees at the dealership that I should expect?
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    No, if you're just buying for cash there will be the documentation fee as you mentioned but there shouldn't be anything else.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • nadia21nadia21 Member Posts: 6
    Thanks again!
  • clutch13clutch13 Member Posts: 1
    Could anyone give a logical explanation as to why my wife and I saw small seashells on top of the engine cover on a used (certified) Jeep Compass in the middle of Maine? Our first thought was is this a Superstorm Sandy vehicle? Needless to say...we walked away and won't be going back. We didn't even bother to look at the Carfax, but it is still really bothering me someone wanted to sell this to us. Seashells? Come on. At least clean off the seashells!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Well, it's probably good that they didn't bother to clean off the seashells - otherwise, you might never have known. The Jeep could have been previously owned by someone who did live near the sea. In addition to the storm possibility you mentioned, it could also be that the previous owner, for whatever reason, did some off-roading on the beach.

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  • melech37melech37 Member Posts: 18
    My lease is almost up on my VW Jetta. According to the dealer's body shop It will cost approx. $1400 to fix some dents, etc. I don't want to go to my insurance company because of a) large deductable and b) my rates will go up. If I lease a new car from my dealer, can I negotiate the new lease price to include the $1400 as part of the monthly lease payments? Any problems with this approach?
  • kevinc5kevinc5 Member Posts: 204
    You may see much better numbers and be able to negotiate with the dealer if you get an estimate from an independent body shop.
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