Toyota 4Runner

buckeyedon · November 2002

Can anyone tell me where to find RPM levels for specific MPH on speedo? e.g.: At 70mph, what is engine rpm on V-8 and on V-6 (for comparison).

Thanks, dmw

peter78 · November 2002

Yes, that is what I am talking about. The 96 and some 97's were re-called. They fixed the problem after that. I was trying to bring up the point that the new V6 engine is a bit of a unknown. Still with Toyota it should be a good engine, even if there is a re-call in the future.

I also think of the new 3.0 V6 found in the Highlander, RX300, Camry, etc. There is a concern over a sludge build up and Toyota has issued a 8 year warranty for sludge on those engines made before 2002. If I was planning to keep the 4Runner for a long time, I would say the best bet is with the V8, especially for $800.

khaug · November 2002

Buckeyedon, the V8 'Runner's gearing yields 34 mph per thousand rpm in top gear, giving an engine speed of about 2060 rpm at 70 mph.

The V6's gearing gives 32.7 mph/thousand rpm in top, so 70 mph needs 2140 rpm.

These are calculated figures, so may be a smidgin off, but the V8 figures tally very closely with what our '03 Limited V8 actually shows on the tach at an indicated 70 mph.

Scarcely a nickle's worth of difference, I'd say.

-Karl

nippononly · November 2002

a very few of the first 3rd gens in '96 were recalled for the head gasket, like the first month's production or something. I never heard of 97s being recalled, and the problem was related to the one in the previous 3.0 V-6, similar but not identical.

mitchinpa: yes it is normal for the edges of the hood on the 3rd gen to flap a bit at highway speeds - JUST A TAD. You will see it move, but if it is moving more than a little, you should make sure that the latches up there are OK.

the flip side of V-6 vs V-8: with the V-6 you can still switch to 2WD if you want to, and does the V-8 have the electronic throttle linkage, as opposed to a mechanical one? You might call that e-throttle-linkage an advantage of the V-6.

I am assuming that 4WD V-6 and V-8 SR5s are also about $800 apart?

vicarouza · November 2002

Both the V6 and V8 engines feature the DRIVE-BY-WIRE throttle control as well as ACITVE WHEEL SPEED SENSORS! .......However, I agree with you on the part-time 4WD setup of the V6, resulting in EVEN BETTER fuel economy for people who will not use the 4WD 80-90% of the time (those that live in Southern Climes)

burton5 · November 2002

I know the V8 is full time four wheel drive but I prefer the V6 and part-time. However, anyone know if a limited slipp diff is an option on the V6??

intmed99 · November 2002

There is NO need for LSD on 4wd 4Runners because they have 4-wheel traction control. On 2wd models, you have 2-wheel traction control on the rear axle.

mrwhipple · November 2002

Cliffy is right, the traction control off switch is only on the 2WD models.

It is actually the Diff-Lock switch on the 4WD models. When switched on it essentially shuts off the traction control.

intmed99 · November 2002

Center diff Lock button turns off VSC, NOT traction.

mrwhipple · November 2002

Oops, you're right. Thanks for the correction.

There are so many acronyms associated with all the technology these days it's easy to get them mixed up.

heng · November 2002

Thanks for the link, can't wait for Rockcrawler or anyone else to do a full test.

What strikes me strange is why did Toyota have only 1 4WD in the whole bunch for off road test drives? It sounds stupid on their part.

Also, I hoped the factory engineers learned something when the Rockcrawler rep jumped into the stuck 4WD, turned off the electronics (VSC?) and the proceeded to unstick the 4runner using his learned tricks of the trade. He said they were amazed.

nhopper1 · November 2002

Mitch, the vibration (or flutter might be a better description)is caused by the turbulence created by the bug deflector. Take it off and the problem will disappear(It did on mine). Also the bug deflector doesn't allow air to flow into the air intake of the heating-vent system very well at medium to high road speeds unless you turn the fan speed to at least first speed. Also it may rub off some of the chrome on the top of the grill where it tends to partially rest. You will also notice that if you use your windshield washer at higher speeds, the water flow is wildly dispersed onto the windshield as a result of the aforementioned wind turbulence. My long time experience with aftermarket items is that there is almost always a trade off when using them(no one selling these items tells you this, of course....)

nhopper1 · November 2002

Anyone have hard mpg numbers for the 2003 4Runner on 65 mph plus/minus highway driving? I don't trust the obc numbers since my now gone Sequoia obc produced figures 15% optimistic. Thanks.

khaug · November 2002

We did a 200 mile trip on secondary highways and back roads in our '03 Limited V8 this past weekend and got 18.3 calculated MPG. Our average speed was only about 45 mph, but there was a fair amount of stop-and-go involved, going through little towns. Total mileage on the truck at the end of the trip was only about 400, so I'd expect this to improve as breakin progresses.

Interesting you mentioning the gross error in your Sequoia's OBC mpg function. The mpg readout in our 'Runner said 20.0 for this trip. That's 9% error, still WAAAAY more than it ought to be. Did you ever complain about your Sequoia and see if there was a fix?

-Karl

nhopper1 · November 2002

Khaug,thanks for your observation re: your mpg, but I am particulaly interested in a fairly steady highway number since mileage varies so greatly once starting, stopping, uphill grades get factored in. This is particularly true of heavy vehicles like the 4Runner.

My Sequoia would consistantly squeak out 20 mpg(actual manual calculation)on fairly level terrain at an average of 60/65 mph. I would hope that the 1000lb. lighter 2003 V-8 4Runner would produce at least a couple of mpg more under the same conditions. If so, I'd be more inclined to buy the V-8 vs. the V-6 since low 20's would be OK for me. (My 2000 SR-5 A/T will deliver 22/23 mpg at steady 60/65,no A/C on.)

As far as complaining to Toyota, I never bothered since I would automatically take into consideration the error(plus, I only kept it for 14 months). It's hard to tell if you could get them to agree to a recalculated obc since they could easily take the position that the consumer generated figures can also be wrong if not done very carefully. Hard to prove, in other words.

Would you say, judging by your experience so far with the V-8, whether a lesser "torque endowed" V-6 would feel decent? In other words, did the V-8 have an over abundance of power which would imply that the V-6 could well handle the job?

Thanks for your input.

peter78 · November 2002

Today their was finally a 4Runner ad in the Thanksgiving newspaper. You know the "cheesey" ads that give a price for a base models and have only 1 or 2 available. The ad read as follows:
1.) 2003 Highlander V6- $23,975
2.) 2003 4Runner SR5-V8- $26,975
3.) 2003 Sequoia SR5- $31,975

Two things that caught my eye. That is the lowest price I have seen on the Highlander, maybe getting a new 4Runner help dropped the price. Second, the 4Runner price is already being discounted, that is if you believe the ad.

Also, don't you like the price points, pay a little more and get a bigger SUV. This is form the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

khaug · November 2002

The V8 is well-endowed with torque, but I haven't done a WOT 0-60 run yet (breakin), so can't really comment on just how strong it'll feel.

However, I'd guess the V6 will do very well indeed, based on it's 34% HP and 30% torque advantage over the 3rd generation 'Runners with only about a 10% weight increase. Odd, though, that they retained the venerable 4-speed tranny for the less-torquey V6 and gave the nice new 5-speed to the V8.

Best.

-Karl

vicarouza · November 2002

......why I'm not even considering the V6 for just $800 less!!....If the V6 engine came with the 5-speed tranny, I would've given the V6 a very serious thought, because a 5-speed tranny would've further enhanced fuel economy (at least highway mileage) making the gas mileage difference between the V6 and V8 even more. Now, however the gas mileage difference is too small to be significant. One of the reasons the gas mileage is so good for a V8, is the 5-speed auto! While the difference in power may not be that noticeable between the 2 engines, I'm willing to bet anything that the V6 is not going to be as UNBELIEVABLY BUTTER-SMOOTH and SHOCKINGLY QUIET as the V8!!!!!......and for just an $800 difference.....not worth it!

buckeyedon · November 2002

For the rpm/gear information on V8/V6 motor and tranny. I assume the V6 rpms at approx. 70mph are based upon 4 stage tranny rather than 5 stage V8 tranny.

Again, thanks for taking time to calc and reply.

leodogs · November 2002

I'm having trouble with khaug's comments re: gearing (#3956). I'm not getting anywhere near those numbers in my '03 V8Ltd. - 2000 rpm puts out 50mph while 2500 = 60 mph. What gives? Does the patient need a checkup? Just curious what others think...

nippononly · November 2002

the Motor Trend sport ute comparo, and out of the 14 trucks in there, they called the 4Runner the "hot rod of the bunch" with a 0-60 time of 7.8 seconds. (with the V-8 of course)

That's faster than the car I drive! ;-0

The way they have stacked powertrain options and outputs for the new Runner, it seems like they have bred the V-6 to fail, what with the equivalent hp and vastly higher torque of the V-8, not to mention its 5-spd auto and the fact that they are so close in price and mileage figures.

peter78 · November 2002

Motor Trend has a article called "Behind the Scenes: 2003 Sport/Utility of the Year". Not much written, but a lot of pictures.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/scenes/112_0211_btssuoty/

Also, here is some SUV of the year Wallpaper.

http://motortrend.com/multimedia/wallpaper/suoty/

dawgpak · November 2002

updated w/ latest reviews:

http://www.dawgpak.com/4Runner/

morunner2 · November 2002

Leodogs, sounds like you are not getting into 5th gear (i.e. overdrive off switch is selected).

The 5 speed auto mated with the V8 is the same combo used for the LX 470, Land Cruser and Sequoia, an important upgrade this year for them. Transmissions are expensive and my guess is that a 5 speed would otherwise not be merited for the lighter 4 Runner with this torquey engine. It's a great bonus.

Look for the 4 litre 4 sp. to show up in Tacoma, Highlander, and perhaps Lexus models.

cliffy1 · November 2002

A friend of mine bought a new Limited from me on Tuesday. On Wednesday, he called me in a panic. It seems he was driving in his neighborhood and reached forward to grab his coffee. He hit the shift lever and knocked it into park. He heard a grinding sound as the thing went from 25 down to 0.

He had three concerns. First, he was afraid he damaged his new vehicle. After talking with my service director, we determined that this was not the case. There is a pawl that can break which prevents the transmission from going into park until it slows sufficiently but this didn't break in this case.

Next, he was concerned that there may be a defect which allowed the shifter to go from 5th down into park. There is no defect per se. Because it is a gated shift lever, there is no need for a button. The shifter did exactly what it was supposed to do.

His third concern was that the design is crummy. I agree with him on this. If you are in 4th, this can't happen. If you are in 5th, you can bump the shifter hard enough to drop into park.

Be careful with this.

khaug · November 2002

I just went out to my garage and tried to do the D-P "shift". Sure enough, It can be done, given the right combination of angle of strike and determination to move the lever the rather considerable distance necessary to have it happen. Moreover, it CAN be done from the "4" position.

I have major difficulty, however, over deeming this to be a "crummy design". Given even a modicum of attention and coordination, the gates do their job and make a direct shift into park virtually impossible. I've taught high-performance driving for commercial schools and sports car clubs for 15 years, and from my perspective, the shifter's design is elegant and functional. Believe me, I see and deal with many that are less so, and this includes the shifter on the 3rd gen 4Runners such as I traded in on my '03.

What happened here is that someone was doing something that shouldn't be done while driving and caused himself a problem thereby. So now instead of taking personal responsibility for his mishap, he (and you) blames a perfectly good shifter. I don't think so.

IMHO, when the coffee-drinkers, cell-phone users, map readers, makeup appliers, et cetera ad nauseam while driving take responsibility for their own actions and change their behavior, we'll all be foolproofed. Until then, I get irked when someone suggests we should be making things easier for them.

Regards,

-Karl

khaug · November 2002

Leaddogs, I agree it sounds like you're not in "D", and thereby are locking out 5th gear. Check and make sure the tranny lever is in the "D" position, on the right side of the "4 - D" slot in the shift pattern.

There is no "OD Off" button for the tranny, like 3rd gen 4Runners had. If you select the "4" position, it's the equivalent of turning "OD" off.

Regards,

-Karl

mrwhipple · November 2002

Shouldn't your hands be on the wheel! There is nothing wrong with the design of the shifter. Pay attention.

leodogs · November 2002

Khaug and morunner2 I am indebted to you. In addition to the tranny, my brain wasn't in D also. I feel pretty stupid right now. I've driven 900 miles in 4D and have been so impressed with this V8 engine that I never realized what I was doing wrong.
After reading your messages, I just jumped in the car, drove for a few miles in "D" and what a difference! Now, the question is - what's the worst thing I did as a result of my stupidity?
Burnt a few extra gallons of gas I imagine...anything else?
I'm also wondering - if I did this, are there others - or am I in a class by myself? Thanks again to both of you and of course this forum which made this possible.

leodogs · November 2002

After reading the message from tfuzz maybe this is something Toyota should be addressing. I'm not blaming my salesman (who was great to work with), but I'm pretty sure we never discussed or had demonstrated the 4D vs. D position. I take full responsibility for the error, however, how many others are out there making the same mistake - which could be minimized by digesting the info. on pages 127-131 in the "Owner's Manual"? Something I obviously failed to do.

peter78 · November 2002

"loedogs" I think the worst that can happen by leaving your gearshift in 4th gear instead of 5th is you burn a few extra gallons. When or if you decide to tow, you won't be using 5th gear anyway. I know there is a break in period, as long as you didn't over rev the engine, no harm, no foul. Salesman usually don't tell you everything and your right, you can learn a lot by reading this board.

Now about accidentally sifting from Drive to Park. I disagree it is not "a crummy design" and it is the fault of the owners. You don't always have your hands on the wheels. Toyota provided us with air conditioning, CD player and a cigarette lighter. (Actually, I think the cigarette lighter is now a option, go figure.) It is OK to come up with a better design in case of a mistake, that is why we have air bags, side impact beams and VSC.

cliffy1 · November 2002

I'm sorry you got "irked" at my post cautioning new owners to be careful with their shifters. I completely agree that owners need to pay more attention when driving but you and I both know that doesn't happen enough. I also stand by my opinion that the design could be better in preventing this from happening to inattentive drivers. Relax a bit man.

nhopper1 · November 2002

tfuzz, thanks for the reply. Sounds like with a lighter load, a bit less mph, mpg might hit 22 after break-in.

Regarding an earlier post re:2003 titanium paint irregularities, Friday I visited a suburban MD. dealer who had 5 titanium 4Runners and ALL 5 had the discoloration "bleeding" look. I don't know if it comes from the color coat or if maybe the poly protection sheeting somehow reacted badly with the titanium. I did not see any other color affected. All 3 models had the problem.

Lastly, I find it frustrating that I can only get the taupe interior with the gold exterior(according to the spreadsheet that lists int/ext combos, this is true). I'm sure there are others who would wish to have a choice of interior colors that the brochure lists as available but don't get built. Do others agree and if so maybe letting Toyota know as we did regarding the gray cladding might get some results?

Regards-

nhopper1 · November 2002

Just to let you know, a dealer in Laurel MD. is currently discounting all in stock 4Runners $2797 PLUS an additional $500 disc. through 12/09/02. I'll still pass until the gray cladding and taupe interior issues are resolved, but maybe this will help those of you who aren't as picky as I am!

khaug · November 2002

Leodogs, I'm certain there was no harm done by driving with 5th gear locked out. Our '00 BMW 528i turns rpms in 5th gear similar to the '03 4Runner in 4th, and I expect to see it last for well over 100K miles.

I actually did the same thing on my test drive of the '03 4Runner, but had figured out beforehand what the tach should be reading at 70, so knew I didn't have it right. The vehicle is so quiet it's very hard to tell any difference between 4th and 5th.

-Karl

dust90 · November 2002

There is NO 4D, it is 4, both on the shifter and the instrument panel. D is the first forward gear that you can engage when comming out of park & you actually have to have to pull the lever to the left to get it in 4. I'm sure no harm done though. However, & nothing personal to you, but just read these posts: owners don't know that the 4WD is not equipped with a Trac Off button!! READ the owners manual. As to shifting into park while reaching for your drink: must have big paws or was really anxious to grab that drink!

tfuzz · December 2002

nhopper1: Oops. My son just gave me another gas slip where he filled the Runner before we left on the trip. That changes the MPG. The correct MPG for our trip was actually only 16.76. Sorry for the confusion. I thought that other figure sounded awfully good!

My overall mileage for 2,565 miles is 16.521.

nhopper1 · December 2002

Thanks for the revised figure. I'll have to hope that all the additional weight that you carried had a significant effect on the mileage. Let us know as time goes on.

Regards-

4wdisfun · December 2002

I bought a new prado 2003 (twin brother of the Lexus Gx470). Couldn't wait for the runners coming in march 03 in this part of the world. I ordered it turbo-diesel/.

Merry christmas to all..... hohoho

4wdisfun · December 2002

I need some help guys. Due to poor dealer service (Only 1 for all the country) the Toyota accessories are scarce and expensive. I am planning a trip to US next January and want to know if the new 4runner receiver hitch can be used on the lexus GX470 (LANDCRUISER PRADO). I know both cars are built on the same platform and have the same chassis. I think Lexus accesories are more expensive that Toyota. Thx in advance for your help.

superleggera · December 2002

Someone had asked earlier in this discussion why he couldn't find a certain model in Southern California (I believe he wanted a 4WD Limited and could only find 2WD). Some of us postulated that different parts of the country get different combinations of options...It makes sense that dealers receive what is most likely to get sold off their lots. While I'm sure Cliffy and others can shed light on this, I noticed something interesting on the Toyota website. When you go to "Build Your Own", the first question asked is your zip code. The combinations of powertrains, etc., change depending on which one you enter. I tried comparing Northern and Southern California, and their were differences on the availability of the V6, for example. I was surprised that this is made relatively transparent to anyone who goes to the website, but I guess it doesn't matter much to most people.

mitchinpa · December 2002

Thanks for the reply nippononly and nhopper1!!

superleggera · December 2002

On the question of V6 vs. V8, I see the PLUSSES for each as follows:
V8- torque, 5 speed, steel, reliable, resale, taller overdrive, towing capacity
V6- gas mileage, aluminum, VVT-i, shift-on-the-fly multimode, price, weight distribution(?)

Does anybody know what the front/rear weight distribution is? Does the V6 get it closer to 50/50? There is a 130lb. weight difference between the two engines, amounting to about 3% less weight over the front wheels on the V6. Does this make a difference in handling?

intmed99 · December 2002

Usually, 50/50 distribution on a body-on-frame true SUV is not too important (as opposed to cars or BMW X5). Hopefully, you will never go fast enough to need 50/50 distribution on a 4000 lbs (high center of gravity) SUV! :-)

Aluminum as an engine block is a mixed blessing. Yes, it saves weight...but then the 4Runner already weigh over 4000 lbs. Aluminum MAY also be less durable (over the long haul) than an iron block engine...especially IF you plan on putting a supercharger later or do some towing (high stress on engine).

I do NOT think the V8 5-speed auto has a significant taller overdrive. What the 5-speed has is a LOW 1st gear ratio (numerically HIGH), which helps with acceleration (& torquey feeling) and towing...and great for off-roading (great crawl ratio).

nippononly · December 2002

the iron block over an all-aluminum any day on any vehicle where the weight differential is not that important, I.E. a very heavy truck such as this one.

super: how can the plus of the V-8 be the iron block, yet the plus of the V-6 is the aluminum block? That is a contradiction?

All-aluminum engines cool off faster, which might be a plus in some situations.

superleggera · December 2002

Thanks for the replies.
I have been telling myself that it is worth waiting for the V6, but when the cost savings didn't materialize as I had hoped, I started wondering why I should get the smaller engine. I thought that maybe the V6 would be better handling due to lower weight. But you're right, on a vehicle this size and for this purpose, it doesn't matter.

However, absolutely every one of the magazines said that most drivers who don't tow (and I don't) won't notice the difference or need the V8. I guess the final proof is in the pudding...When can we drive one? They're supposed to be on the lots, but I haven't seen one yet. If it feels moderately as good as the V8 and I can talk the price down, I'm sure I would be happy with it. Still a lot more HP than the third gen.

intmed99 · December 2002

You'll be missing out on a GREAT V8, possibly one of the best V8 out there!! I would love to have that V8 in my 3rd gen 4Runner! :-)

The problem with most magazines is that they don't know anything! Sorry. Most of these freelance writers know very little about car stuff. They believe what the manufacturer says and read only the numbers.

The difference in fuel economy and cost between the V6 and V8 is so small that i would get the V8 in a heartbeat! Why would i get an UNproven V6 engine (with aluminum block)??

Remember, the V8 is good enough to go on a Lexus. Oh yeah, and you get the 5-speed auto tranny with it too!!! That alone is worth the little extra cash you have to shell out. It's all about bragging rights!

My opinion.

nhopper1 · December 2002

For those of you who may intend to keep their 4R beyond powertrain warranty, keep in mind that the more sophisticated 5spd. A/T will most likely be significantly more expensive to repair both mechanically and electronically. I'm more concerned about that than I am about the engine!

I own and have run a BMW shop for over 25 yrs., and have certainly seen the negative results of complexity. That's one reason my last three new vehicles have been Toyotas. It does give me some pause to consider selling my 2000, which is relatively simple, then buying the 2003 which has way more electronics(drivetrain and chassis) and servos. It will be a real leap of faith to do so!(I do intend to, though)

Regards-

morunner2 · December 2002

So much negative talk about the SR 5 cladding, I'm thinking we all fuel our own dislike of it beyond rational opinion. I can live with it, as I will the truck for 10 years, however...
The cladding is not sealed tight against the door panel so what concerns me is the eventual penetration of water and road salt washing down the door and behind the plastic where it can't be washed off. I did not think to check for weep holes at the bottom of the door panels on my test drive, however, I'm not so sure they would be very effective. My guess is that with millions of vehicles bearing cladding, Toyota would have avoided such a problem if there was one. Any experience is welcome.

rocksolid6 · December 2002

I just went over 800 miles on my new SR5 and could not be happier. I am getting excellent gas mileage with the V-8, 28.7 highway (on the only highway trip so far) and around 18.5 city.

So far the only problem I've encountered is that it didn't come with a front license plate bracket (realized it when I went to put on the front plate). The dealer initially told me I would have to buy it myself...not. They also don't have the updated parts catalogs in the service department so they are having trouble ordering it for all the models on the lot that are made in Japan.

I have also found the shifter is very easy to knock between D and 4 but there is a gear light located beside the speedometer that helps.

Haven't been able to take it off-road much yet but I have a feeling it is going to be great at it. Oh what a feeling!!!

Toyota 4Runner

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