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The Rebirth of Buick.........

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  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    "What I want to know is what is happening to Saturn. Everywhere you go you here that Saturn is dead, yet you see commercials for them everywhere. They did not make a Sky coupe but they made a Solstice coupe. Is anyone buying them? "

    Best i can tell is Gm will stop supplying Saturn with cars after 2011. Saturn is looking for a partner to sell cars. Not sure exactly how it would work. I know someone suggested that a Saturn/Fiat would be an ideal relationship but Fiat has already committed to Chrysler.....maybe.

    Saturn's sales have been disappointing since the initial S-series back in 1990. I think the recent commercials is to drum up sales to make Saturn more attractive to a potential buyer.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    So in other words, they would dilute the Buick name even further in this vain quest to give the dealers of six different brands a full line of cars? This is a perfect demonstration of the quintessential problem at GM.

    This is also a good example of the dilemma at Buick: it is a big-car brand in a world that is trending towards smaller cars.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....So in other words, they would dilute the Buick name even further in this vain quest to give the dealers of six different brands a full line of cars? This is a perfect demonstration of the quintessential problem at GM."

    Well, in the new GM order of things (just Buick, Chevy, Caddy,and GMC, with the "niche" Pontiac), I would see 3 cars per brand (6 for Chevy, with the Aveo, Camaro, and Corvette), small, medium, and large.

    Aside from Pontiac, and the 3 other Chevies, you could have:

    Buick "Special", Chevy Cruze, and Cadillac BLS for small,
    Buick LaCrosse, Chevy Malibu, and Cadillac CTS, for Medium
    Bucik Lucrene, Chevy Impala, and Caddy STS or DTS for large.

    Now, with platform sharing worldwide, there is no set rule that says all these models must be sister ships, although seeing as how they are meant for NA distribution, they probably will be. 3 cars is hardly dilution. What they must be able to do is build 3 separate, distinct, and likeable cars.

    Look at the medium examples. The Malibu is likeable, good quality, and sells. So is the CTS. Most of the LaCrosse's comments are positive. I think it will sell.

    As for the small cars, If GM can price the Cruze just below the J3 entrants and it is likeable and of good quality like the Malibu, it will sell. If they aim a Buick entrant in that class just below the likes of say, the Volvo S-40, or the Lexus IS, and it too is likeable and of good quality, then it too will sell, w/o diluting the brand, especially if the BLS went after the C class or 1 series.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    3 cars is hardly dilution

    1 car is enough for dilution if they merely rebadge a Chevy. If they develop a model for Buick that is significantly different from the corresponding Chevy, like using the same-size Cadillac as the basis for the Buick, that would be different.

    Will existing Buick devotees buy a small car? I kinda think not. Will Buick be able to attract new people to the brand with a good small car? Maybe.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    If they can manage on taht platform to build a vehicle that will attract people that will later want to move up the Buick ladder it would be worthwhile. It's something of an open question to me.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Will Buick be able to attract new people to the brand with a good small car? Maybe."

    That would be my hope. Even a delta base for a small Buick isn't wrong, provided they build it like a Buick, and not slap a tri-shield on a half assed version of a waterfall grille that fits where the Chevy grille does.

    Again, I look to the compact Volvo for a target audience.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    That would be my hope. Even a delta base for a small Buick isn't wrong, provided they build it like a Buick, and not slap a tri-shield on a half assed version of a waterfall grille that fits where the Chevy grille does.

    The only thing I'd worry about is that the Buick version might end up not being all that much nicer than the Chevy version. GM is starting to learn that you can't build inexpensive cars cheap anymore. Witness the Malibu, which is pretty nice inside, even in base trim. I really don't see the Saturn Aura as being more upscale looking inside, although I do like the exterior style better. And I'd say the Malibu is actually nicer inside than the G6!

    Even the Cobalt, for all the ragging it takes, isn't that bad inside, at least IMO. The only problem though, is that as these low-end cars get nicer, they start pushing up into Buick territory. And Buick can't go too high up, or else it'll start competing with Cadillac.

    Maybe they can pull it off, though? I hope they can. And Buick has had reasonably successful small cars in the past. The 1980-85 Skylark, in spite of being on the infamous X-car platform, was a decent seller and had a good enough following that it didn't tarnish the name. In contrast, the raps that its siblings got ensure that the names Phoenix, Omega, and Citation would get consigned to the history files. The 1985-91 Skylark/Somerset Regal were reasonably successful, too, if not smash hits. And they certainly seemed like a lot more car than the Corsica and Beretta! :surprise:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Again, I look to the compact Volvo for a target audience.

    But look what happened to the compact Volvo - people quickly figured out it was not better in most respects than the Mazda3 with which it shares pretty much everything, and now it is being discontinued!

    The S40 is a PERFECT example of the pitfall Buick MUST avoid if it hopes to attract anyone to the brand with a small car offering. I have little to no faith that Buick will be able to avoid this pitfall.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >happened to the compact Volvo - people quickly figured out it was not better in most respects than the Mazda3

    But a poster said that the Volvo versions of Ford vehicles had special steel rather than the mundane steel used in Fords. I believe the poster was comparing the 500 with a Volvo. Isn't there a quality difference in the S40 and Mazda?

    An S40 parked next to us in the garage in Cincy his week. I wasn't impressed.

    I was impressed with the baby Mercedes C320 on the other side.
    Your point of having a definite value improvement in the Buick version is well taken.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    A well thought out, good value small Buick could be fine. If they just gussy up a Cruze it'll be a disaster.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "I have little to no faith that Buick will be able to avoid this pitfall."

    Would that imply that GM has learned nothing about brand differentiation and segmentation since, say, the introduction of the X-cars in 1979?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Even the Aveo looks pretty nice inside for a cheap subcompact.

    The Corsica was a coarse car and the Beretta was a disgraceful namesake for the fabled Italian gunmaker.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Would that imply that GM has learned nothing about brand differentiation and segmentation since, say, the introduction of the X-cars in 1979?

    Little to nothing, yes.

    It is obvious they are basing the new baby Buick on the Cruze. That's a bad start right away. I just don't see this as being the start of a resurgence of Buick, not even close.

    If nothing else, look to the complete makeover of Saturn that has happened over the last two years. And Saturn still has.......declining customers, and so few of them that the Saturn brand has been cancelled. Buick has less customers than Saturn had BEFORE its makeover, and the "rebirth" is based on much less than Saturn's was.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    It is obvious they are basing the new baby Buick on the Cruze. That's a bad start right away. I just don't see this as being the start of a resurgence of Buick, not even close.

    This probably isn't the way to go either, but if they're just basing this thing on the Cruze, then IMO they should badge it as a Pontiac. That'll give the Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers a small car to sell, and, well, nobody really expects a Pontiac to be a nicer car than a Chevy these days, anyway.

    If Pontiac goes away totally though, I wonder if Buick would end up taking the same route Chrysler did? Once upon a time, Chrysler was a prestige brand, probably moreso than Buick, as they didn't do "small" big cars like the Buick Special/Century. Also, a Special was a lot cheaper than a Windsor, while the New Yorker was more expensive than a Roadmaster. Nowadays though, cars like the PT Cruiser, Sebring and the 2.7 version of the 300 really should be Plymouths.

    So, if Pontiac went away totally, I guess I wouldn't gripe too much if they just badge-engineered a Cruze into a Buick, to give those dealers something to sell. I know I shouldn't encourage the badge-engineering that GM does, but if forced to choose, I'd buy a G5 over a Cobalt, and a Torrent over an Equinox...partly because I've always been more of a Pontiac fan, but also partly because I think they look nicer than their Chevy counterparts. I don't fool myself for an instant into thinking they're better cars than the Chevy versions...I just happen to prefer the style.

    So I guess I could see a Buick fan choosing a Cruze derivative over the original, if looking for a small car. Still probably not the right route for Buick to go, though.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'd like to think otherwise, because you'd think that all the pain,humiliation and stress of the past several years would be jolting wake-up call, but you may be right. Going forward, I'm more concerned about the risk that Washington's involvement may force the automakers to produce cars that can't be sold profitably.

    It'll be interesting to see how things unfold.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....It is obvious they are basing the new baby Buick on the Cruze. That's a bad start right away. I just don't see this as being the start of a resurgence of Buick, not even close."

    See, it's a statement like this that would leave me to believe that the "baby Buick" should just go away, never to see the light of day. I would agree, if it is based on the "Cruze", it's bad. But to base it on the "delta" archetecture that underpins the Cruze, is not. Otherwise, how does GM build a "baby Buick" and make money?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >I'm more concerned about the risk that Washington's involvement may force the automakers to produce cars that can't be sold profitably

    I'm sure Barney Frank, Waters, Dodd, Pelosi, and Reid all can handle business matters very well.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Automakers don't seem to need any help whatsoever in producing cars that can't be sold profitably. It's an area they seem to excel.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm thinking a small Buick only makes sense when gas gets up near $4 again. Then there may be a market for a smaller 4 cyl luxury car. They will need to give it a much smoother and quieter suspension and ride from the Chevy, and go up market on the interior. Eventually as gasoline prices rise, mid size will become the next full size opening up the compact segment to upscale cars, but I don't know that we are there yet? Of course, if alternative cars like hybrids or hydrogen fuel cells make major strides in cost reduction then this may not happen, but I think that may be further out than the return of $4 gas. Whatever GM does, don't Cadillac Cimaron it again!!!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    There's no reason it has to be a 4-cylinder; a 2.5L V6 for example. Buick could do worse than to build a de facto copy of the first-gen Acura Legend, with the suspension and NVH of a Lexus ES.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....There's no reason it has to be a 4-cylinder; a 2.5L V6 for example."

    I don't think it matters whether it's a 4 or 6. If a Baby Buick is to be built off of the delta archetecture, then price it at 20K, and make it worthy of a $25K compaact car.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/13604674/2010-Buick-LaCrosse-complete-ordering-guide

    Car should be on dealer lots by the end of June!!!!!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    If the factory stays open long enough to get some out the door. Where is this one built at?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Fairfax, Kansas. Here is an article:

    http://www.kansascity.com/898/story/1178359.html
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    “Buick is trying to bring down the average age of its owners ... "
    Nice try, but no luck with people under 50 years old.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Now that Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer and Saab are gone (and good ridance to all), and GM is combining remaining makes into single GM dealerships, Buick might be justified.
    When GM had 50% of auto market before 1960, they could justify numerous brands because there was very little overlap. In the 60's, GM got away from that and internal competition became as great as external. Also began losing market share and focus.
    For Buick, and Cadillac, to survive they have to have cars that are obviously different from Chevrolet and each other. Not the case right now.
    Let Chevy emphasize small, mid-size and performance cars and maybe a low cost large car. Buick can have near luxury/upscale small, mid and large cars. Caddy can have prestige small, mid and large cars with more luxury items on them.
    The key is that same dealer sells all brands.
    Probably wouldn't hurt for GMC to get out of pick-up and SUV business also.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Nice try, but no luck with people under 50 years old. "

    What makes you so sure? I would agree that the current Lucerne and LaCrosse don't, as they are "old school", but I see plenty of younger buyers driving the Enclave. Now, don't get me wrong, at $35-42K, that will eliminate a large segment of the 20-35 year olds who aren't quite established yet, or are still struggling with a young family, but people who CAN afford them are buying them.

    The new LaCrosse is aimed at a younger segment than the retirees. We shall see.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My girlfriend bought a new LaCrosse and when she was 37.
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    20-35 year olds drives leased BMWs or Hondas in SoCA.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    They lease Hondas too? They must be destitute! Did you mean they lease BMWs and buy Hondas?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    You can lease Hondas very cheaply if you have decent credit...I suspect several in the garage of my building are leased.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Well, now they can lease a LaCrosse
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    Well, now they can lease a LaCrosse

    Not throught GMAC.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    check out the money factor on leases between an accord ex-L v6 and a lucerne...ouuch!
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    http://www.easycarblog.com/2009/07/2010-buick-lacrosse-to-feature-hybrid-power.h- tml/

    No who, what, where, when, or why. Post Dated 7/8/09 12:18 am
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    With Pontiac and Saturn leaving GM, I'm betting that Buick will add a smaller-than-Lacrosse sedan to it's product lineup. Maybe it'll be a nicely styled, upscale version of the Chevy Cruze, with one or two unique features to differentiate it from the Cruze.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Well, reports have it that a model will be built alongside the Cruze here in the US, for sale in China!!! So, it's not a stretch that if they see a need here to just start shipping them.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I kinda like that RoadHazzard wagon he has posted lower down on that page.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Heh, by the time editorial sends around their list of what's new on site, it's already been live for a week or more. And they don't give us hosts advance notice, so I'm usually clueless about such things.

    Karl is hanging out in Colorado right now, but reply to a blog post or tweet and put in your request.

    Inside Line had a recent blurb about the four-cylinder version in the pipeline. And they have 2010 pics up.

    image
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I just found it odd that while these others have posted their first drives, edmunds has yet too.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Must be a conspiracy and Buick isn't providing us one to test. Be sure to ask Karl that too. That'll make his vacation. :shades:
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    This time from nextautos.com;

    ".....We came away from this rather surprised. Frankly, we often look at GM’s top efforts and think "almost." Usually, the exterior looks great, but the interior is a letdown. Or the engine is great, but the transmission is clunky. Or the drivetrain is good, but the handling is insipid. The LaCrosse isn’t like that. There is essentially nothing significantly wrong with this car, if it is viewed through the eyes of the target customer. In other words, the LaCrosse is fully competitive with the Lexus ES350 and Acura TL. No excuses, no "almost." Whether the LaCrosse is better than an ES or a TL is a matter for another article, but the significant point is that anyone shopping for an ES or a TL could legitimately cross-shop the LaCrosse."
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm not sure an Opel based chassis and GM drivetrain can compete head on with Lexus. However, if close and significantly less expensive they might pull it off. I think the new LaCrosse looks good despite the dumb name and hope they can pull it off. However, GM head in the sand management will probably either short cut the product or over price the car, but let's hope for the best.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I don't know if you got to read the entire article or not but as to materials;

    ".....More surprising is that the quality of the materials seems better than on most of the competition. A little less glossy wood and chrome would be more to our taste, but given the example set by Lexus perhaps this is a category necessity. Again, final judgment awaits direct comparison, but nothing about the Buick design jumped out as an important faux pas, whereas we’ve been put off by materials and detail design on many a Lexus and Infiniti of late."

    As far as price, the base CX is only $27K and change, while the CXL fwd is around $29K. Add awd (not available on the ES350) its $31K and $33K for the CXS. The ES350 STARTS at $34K. I don't think overpricing is going to be an issue.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Buick seems to rate good quality, so maybe this car will be a sleeper. I think GM intends to spend some significant bucks advertising it (hopefully to a wider audience than pro golf in order to reach some younger people as well).
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I've seen the new ad. I can't warm up to the ad that much, with all that "Project Runway" type bs, but the tag line "Take A Look at Us Now" is catchy, and hits the mark as to what the cars must do.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    http://2010lacrosse.com

    If you register, go to the Auditorium and watch the video on the new Lacrosse. While yes, there is the usual corporate bs in the video, I did find it to be a nice intro to the car.
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