The Rebirth of Buick.........

fezo · September 2009

Pretty much agree with that. The Impala's biggest problem is that it's old. It's long overdue for replacement.

Nothing particularly wrong with one. If I'm renting and that's what turns up it's OK but I wouldn't be shopping one at all these days.

imidazol97 · October 2009

>GM actually did put some serious thought into this new LaCrosse, and it's relation to the Malibu/Aura/G6 is more like the Lexus ES350 to a Camry.

The laCrosse is on a different platform from Mal/Aur/G6. The Toyota ES350 and Camry are the same platform. And the Toyo Avalon is based on the previous Camry platform.

tjc78 · October 2009

The laCrosse is on a different platform from Mal/Aur/G6

Am I incorrect that its just a revised platform? If not the naming is stupid. The Malibu/Aura/G6 are Epsilon the new LaCrosse is Epsilon II. From what I read the next Malibu will be E2 and the new Regal will be as well. Just an evolution and all midsize models will use it.

The Toyota ES350 and Camry are the same platform. And the Toyo Avalon is based on the previous Camry platform.

The 05 Avalon was the first Toyota on the new platform (also first with the new 2 GR engine and you are correct that it was derived from the previous Camry) from there all models used it. The Av/Camry/ES/Highlander/RX/RAV/Sienna are all the same basic platform.

andre1969 · October 2009

Am I incorrect that its just a revised platform? If not the naming is stupid. The Malibu/Aura/G6 are Epsilon the new LaCrosse is Epsilon II. From what I read the next Malibu will be E2 and the new Regal will be as well. Just an evolution and all midsize models will use it.

That was my impression, too. This reminds me of past times when GM has done things like this, such as how they'd tend to not update all the W-bodies at the same time. For instance, in 1997 the Grand Prix/Century/Regal were redesigned, while the Lumina/Monte Carlo dated back to 1995, and the old Cutlass Supreme was still hanging on, dating back to 1990 for the sedan and 1988 for the coupe!

And then it happened again more recently, with the Grand Prix getting re-done for 2004, the LaCrosse coming out in 2005 and phasing out the Century/Regal, and then the Impala's update for 2006.

It does get confusing. I wish they'd just go back to some simpler naming convention like A-, B-, C-body, etc.

tjc78 · October 2009

This reminds me of past times when GM has done things like this, such as how they'd tend to not update all the W-bodies at the same time.

Toyota does the same thing. I did a bad job explaining my point above, but what I was trying to say was that the '05 Avalon was the first "new/revised" platform and then all the next redesigns (Camry, etc) were based off of it. I guess its better to get all the kinks worked out on one model rather than several.

imidazol97 · October 2009

"Redesigned from the ground up, the Avalon now rides on a stretched version of the current Camry platform." This is from the 2005 Road test by Edmunds. That was the platform that is previous to the current Camry.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=105147/pageNumber=5

I recall someone telling me the Avalon was completely different and didn't have a single part in common with the then current Camry. But check Rockauto.com showed many, many parts. So I recall the fact that Edmunds stated it was based on the older Camry platform.

As to the newer Camry, is there anywhere it says it was based on the Avalon rather than being "All new" as edmunds states.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=109049/pageNumber=1

andre1969 · October 2009

My impression was that the Avalon was always a bit behind the times with the restyles, although it would still get up-to-date engines and such. Now I could be wrong, but I always thought that the 1995 Avalon was based on the 1992-96 Camry, while the 2000 was based on the 1997-02. Then when the 2005 came out, I thought it was based on the 2002-06?

Do I have it backwards, though? Maybe the Avalon would come out and then the following generation of Camry would be based on it?

tjc78 · October 2009

We have touched on this before I believe. This article should clear things up. It is about the then new Avalon and then goes on to explain about the next Camry.

couple quotes:

Though the current Camry platform served as the basis for the Avalon, Toyota says that the entire platform has been reworked to accommodate the longer, wider Avalon (1 in. taller, 1.5 in. wider and 5 in. longer than the current Camry.)

Terashi says that the next-generation Camry will use a shortened version of this platform and the new 3.5L V-6, most likely with reduced horsepower.

tjc78 · October 2009

Do I have it backwards, though?

Yes, at least for the 05+ check out my respone to Imid. That pretty much explains it all. The '05+ Avalon was the base for the current crop of Toyotas. I am not sure about the prior years.

cooterbfd · October 2009

".....The LaCrosse is reaching for a more "fluid" shape, especially with the "sweepspear" stamped into the side panels and more curvacious taillights...much like a 1965 Wildcat."

Is that why I like both so much???

imidazol97 · October 2009

1965 Wildcat

stever · October 2009

"We are selling every Cadillac SRX, every Equinox, every Buick LaCrosse and every Camaro within 48 hours of being delivered to us," said John Bergstrom, owner of several Wisconsin GM dealerships. "These products are home runs."

GM May Boost Output of New Models (Wall St. Jorunal)

lemko · October 2009

Which one's yours?

imidazol97 · October 2009

>Which one's yours?

I wish one were.

I was trying to see how the new LaCrosse has picked up the style of the Wildcat of that year. I don't see the curved crease styling on the side of the 2010 in that Wildcat.

kernick · October 2009

Do the volume of those models make up for the Silverado sales being down 61.5 last month (compared to Sep. 08)?

4 homeruns look good, until you see that you lost the game 14-4.

stever · October 2009

It's too painful not to look on the bright side.

Some site this week was questioning whether GM would in fact be able to keep Buick going as a separate brand. Probably just a comment at one of those links I skimmed and can't find again.

kernick · October 2009

was questioning whether GM would in fact be able to keep Buick going as a separate brand.

That is a political question since GM's existence is only guaranteed as long as the U.S. government continues to pay for it. Until GM is able to make profit on a regular basis, then GM (and Buick) remain in danger of being the target of anger of the population who may see the U.S. auto industry getting preferential treatment.

People who are running out their unemployment, underemployed, foreclosed on, or seeing their Medicare and SS potentially cut, are not going to be too happy if they are made aware by the press that the government is continuing to provide money for more brands and cars then we need or can sell to other countries.

There is no "Rebirth of Buick" if the rebirth is paid with tax $, and it continues to lose money.

You or I can "rebirth anything" if the government gives us start-up money, development money, and supports our operating losses each month! :P

berri · October 2009

Nice pix imidazol 97. They are all great and I actually like the 4dr HT, you don't see those that often any more. Not sure about the funked up wheels on the coupe, they care awfully large for the wheel opening. I'm thinking the originals probably looked better, but pix can be deceptive sometimes.

berri · October 2009

I think Ford and GM can make it short of some dire economic explosion. Buick makes a nice upscale compliment to Chevy without having to go for the uniquely edgy styled Caddy's. But you're right, Uncle can't keep throwing money at them. One bad sign, I think it was Autonews that pointed out GM advertising is reverting to its look a like corporate approach again. Not good!

imidazol97 · October 2009

>Nice pix imidazol 97

Thanks. I was browsing back through suggested models influencing the laCrosse styling. Like you, I prefer finding a classic car as original as possible. From the 60s and 70s certain wheels of the era fit the image, but I don't like the classics having silly wheels put on.

The 4-door Wildcat (1965) is a stately formal style with the 4-door hardtop.

cooterbfd · October 2009

I believe the sweepspear was derived from the 1953/54 Skylark

imidazol97 · October 2009

So the origin of that sweepspear was in this period of Buick... beautiful is all I can say.

This is a close second--all it needs is Catherine Hepburn driving with a long scarf blowing gentle back from shoulder in the wind...

hpmctorque · October 2009

Those are indeed gorgeous cars.

I think the new LaCrosse is nicely styled too. While it's not as impressive as those earlier Buicks were when they were introduced, it's far better than competitors such as, say, the Acura TL and Nissan Maxima, and as nice as the Lexus ES350. My main objection is its rather porky weight. Also, for my taste, I'd prefer if it were a little trimmer. I prefer the size of the ES350.

imidazol97 · October 2009

> I prefer the size of the ES350.

Then you just should buy a Camry.

andre1969 · October 2009

Then you just should buy a Camry.

I dunno, I still think the ES350 is a much nicer car than a Camry, even if it's just a guzzied up Camry. It feels roomier inside to me, too. Although if I really wanted a Toyota like that, I think I'd just get the Avalon over the ES350. Or do they still make the Avalon? I heard rumors it was getting canceled.

ingvar · October 2009

An get horrible Toyota service :mad: I LOVE how Lexus treats there customers!!!

grbeck · October 2009

This past Sunday I stopped by the local Ford dealer, then visited the local Buick dealer. (In Pennsylvania, dealers cannot sell cars on Sunday, so they are closed.)

The Ford dealer had a Taurus SEL and Taurus SHO. The Buick dealer had a LaCrosse CXL. The sticker prices of the Taurus SEL and LaCrosse CXL were very close - within $1,000 of each other.

I have to say that the Buick just doesn't look "right" to me. The hood is too short, and the ventiports should be placed on the outside of the hood crease, not on the inside where they can't be seen very well from the side. The headlights look too much like those of the upcoming Chevrolet Cruze. The front of the car just looks too truncated.

The back of the car is the best part - very fluid taillights and a shapely trunk. The interior, however, looked very nice. It was stylish, well made and had what looked like high-quality materials.

The Taurus looks like a more "substantial" car. It is definitely "boxier," but that makes it easier to place in the Ford lineup. I believe that people will have an easier time placing this car in its proper price and size slot than they will with the LaCrosse.

The Ford had chromed wheels, while the Buick had polished alloy wheels. The polished alloy wheels look much better, in my view. The Taurus SHO did have polished alloy wheels - and they look great.

One good thing for GM is that the LaCrosse and Malibu do look very different both inside and out. They won't necessarily appeal to the same customers. The LaCrosse really does look like it is a step above the Malibu.

Although, if the Buick is cross shopped against Lincoln MKZ, the Buick is the one that looks more "substantial." Also makes me wonder how easy it will be to sell Lincoln MKZs when the Taurus is sitting in the same showroom, and usually with a lower sticker price. Our two Lincoln Mercury dealers were closed last year and combined with the largest Ford dealer. A potential buyer only has to walk across the lot to compare the Lincolns to the Fords.

grbeck · October 2009

My mistake. The curved crease on the 1965 is along the top ridge of the rear fender. It is this "Coke bottle" profile, along with a softer roofline that blends into the lower body, that gives the Wildcat a more flowing appearance. Especially when compared to the 1965 Ford Galaxie, which featured a straight line along the top of the doors and fenders, and a much more "boxy" appearance (particularly the roof, which looks as though it was placed on to the lower body as a separate piece).

imidazol97 · October 2009

I perused some pictures of the various Buicks of that year. I see what you mean about the integrated styling and the fender curve emulating the sweepspear shape. The Wildcats had a grace to their appearance.

hpmctorque · October 2009

Interesting observations.

I recall that you mentioned that the LaCrosse doesn't look right to you before. I agree with you on the ventiports. Also, now that you mention it, the headlights do bear considerable resemblence to those of the Cruze. Maybe I hadn't noticed because the grilles are very different. Regarding the LaCrosse's hood being too short, I'll look more carefully when I see one on the street. I think the last time I saw a '10 LaCrosse was at the DC auto show.

I'll take this opportunity to correct a mistake in my message #301. I had said that Ford's entry level luxury candidate is the Lincoln MKT, but it's really the MKZ. The MKT is the Crossover, of course. In Lincoln's sedan lineup, the MKS is the step up from the MKZ, which means that the "entry level" designation doesn't apply to the MKS. Therefore, I see the LaCrosse as more of a direct competitor to the MKZ than to the MKS.

andre1969 · October 2009

Regarding the LaCrosse's hood being too short, I'll look more carefully when I see one on the street. I think the last time I saw a '10 LaCrosse was at the DC auto show.

I hadn't really noticed it before, because to me, most cars have too short of a hood these days. With the large passenger cabins, steeply raked windshields, and relatively short overall lengths, it's just not space-efficient to make a car with a long hood anymore.

However, I just looked at two side pics, one of an ES350 and one of a 2010 LaCrosse. The LaCrosse is definitely more "cab-forward" than the ES350, as its A-pillar actually extends far enough forward that it's over the front wheel opening. (warning, BIG picture!) The A-pillar itself reaches so far forward that they had to put a little spacer piece ahead of the front door to connect the chrome trim, and that enhances the "cab forward" look, to me.

In contrast, the A-pillar on the Lexus ES350 is much further back. The front door extends ahead of it, and the front wheel opening is fairly far forward.

grbeck · October 2009

The front just doesn't look right. Last night, the main character on the television show The Good Wife drove a new LaCrosse, and the short hood was really noticeable.

The new Lincoln MKZ is more attractive than the LaCrosse - I like the new Lincoln "face". But if viewed side-by-side, I believe that most people would view the LaCrosse as being the more "substantial" vehicle, as well as having a more spacious interior, which is probably very important to both Lincoln and Buick buyers. Plus, most buyers will not have trouble accepting the LaCrosse as a Buick, but I'll bet that more than a few people, when looking at the MKZ, will say, "That's a Lincoln?!".

grbeck · October 2009

Maybe it's the fact that the cabin looks very long and low in relation to the entire car. That makes the hood look shorter in real life.

andre1969 · October 2009

Yeah, that long roofline probably helps make the hood look shorter, too. Heck, look how far to the back it extends, too! The base of the C-pillar actually overlaps the taillights a bit, and I'd guess there's less than a foot of decklid back there. Any less and it would be a hatchback! The back half of the car makes me think a bit of the Lexus GS, which also seems to have a roof line that goes too far back...although in the case of the GS, the car looks really bulky in back. The LaCrosse seems a bit slimmer in the rump area.

hpmctorque · October 2009

I could agree with you that the new MKZ is more attractively styled than the LaCrosse, but I like the instrument panel of the Buick more than the Lincoln's.

hpmctorque · October 2009

I never liked the styling of the Lexus GS. You sure don't see many of them. The IS looks much better to me.

It seems as though this generation GS has been on the market forever.

anythngbutgm · October 2009

I don't see many GS's either and when I do it's most likely a hybrid model. Conversely, I'll see 10 times the amount of IS's in the same trip, those things are everywhere. Ironically, 9 out of those 10 I see are the IS250 AWD models. I've seen (1) convertible and I must say it looks great in person.

But yeah, back to the GS, just like the last one it always seems like each generation sticks around forever. I think it's because Lexus does very subtle changes to their MMC and the model runs for 6 years before replacement.

andre1969 · October 2009

The most common Lexus I tend to see is the LS430, which I think ran from around 2000-2006? And the second most common, believe it or not, is the original LS400, which I guess ran from 1990-1999 without too much change?

So either they built an awful lot of those two models, and/or they're rugged, durable, long-lasting cars, or the other models are out there, but just seem to blend into anonymity with all the other cars?

lemko · October 2009

I dunno. I'd say the most common Lexus around here is the ES300/350 followed by the various LS variants.

cooterbfd · October 2009

There is a red one in the car corral in Hershey, a '53. Only $165,000

Karen_S · October 2009

A reporter would like to speak with drivers whose families have had a lot of automotive brand loyalty. Has it faded over the years? Please send a few sentences on this to pr@edmunds.com no later than Friday, October 16, 2009 if you care to be interviewed on the subject.

hpmctorque · October 2009

The LaCrosse weighs ~260 lbs. more than the Lucerne, yet the Lucerne is larger tha the LaCrosse. Both weigh hundreds of pounds more than the Camry V6 or Avalon. It would be interesting to hear Buick engineers explain these differences.

cooterbfd · October 2009

Drive one.......it handles worlds better than those 3 cars. It feels as rock solid as it looks and weighs

stever · October 2009

"The refrain from General Motors Co.'s Buick division is that it wants to entice younger buyers to forget about Buick's car-for-the-Medicare-crowd reputation. But Buick announced today it's nonetheless resurrecting an old name for its next midsize car: the model will be called the Regal."

Buick Recommissions Regal Name (AutoObserver)

lemko · October 2009

Heck, Buick has a lot of grand old names! Those names don't deter me from buying a Buick but encourage me. I'd love to see another Roadmaster, Special, or Limited. Better than some alphanumeric goobledygook that means nothing. I wish Cadillac would revive its great names like Eldorado, DeVille, and Fleetwood.

andre1969 · October 2009

Same here, I used to like Buick's older names, such as Century, Regal, LeSabre, Riviera, and Electra. Centurion was a cool name too, although it only lasted three years. Wildcat was cool too. And even Skyhawk sounds like a cool name, tarnished only by the car they put it on.

I think the problem is that a lot of these names were cool back in the 1970's, and early 80's, when Buick was still in their prime. But in the later 80's, Buick's demographic started to shift. It went from being a more broadly appealing car to one that catered to a more mature, elderly crowd.

They've helped turn that tide a bit in more recent years, starting with, oddly enough, the Rendezvous. IIRC, its median buyer was around 45 or so. Contrast that to around 57 for the early '00's Regal (my Dad bought his when he was 57, and I teased him that he was finally old enough to buy a Buick), something like 67 for the LeSabre, and 70 for the Park Ave and Century.

I think the first LaCrosse and Lucerne also helped lower the age demographic a bit as well, and I'm sure the Enclave helped out tremendously.

nippononly · October 2009

So the Lacrosse-Lucerne lineup will become the Regal-Lacrosse lineup in a couple of years? And another GM model hits the dustbin of history?

It seems to me that they are aligning the North American Buick line more properly with the Chinese lineup, where smaller cars are preferable, but I'm not sure this is an improvement for North American buyers.

Maybe when they bring a proper premium small car to market, we will see some real change? Seems like there is room for 3 cars in the Buick lineup.

cooterbfd · October 2009

"It seems to me that they are aligning the North American Buick line more properly with the Chinese lineup, where smaller cars are preferable, but I'm not sure this is an improvement for North American buyers."

Name alignment is probably a smart thing, as it simplifies marketing startegy as worldwide name recognition increases. I would agree about the car size, as Americans generally prefer bigger, more versatile vehicles. It appears that the spike in small car sales w/ $4/gal gas was directly related, as many of those buyers are becoming more dissatisfied with those cars as gas hovers around $2.50.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/06/report-consumers-increasingly-shying-away-fro- m-small-cars-owne/

grbeck · October 2009

I visited my local Buick and Ford dealers again this Sunday...can't say that the LaCrosse has yet grown on me. I just like the Taurus better, especially the SHO. the LaCrosse and Taurus SEL were competitive in price (low $30s).

Based on looks, I would probably go with the Taurus.

lemko · October 2009

Can you still get a Crown Victoria at the Ford dealer?

The Rebirth of Buick.........

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