50 Worst Cars of All Time

Mr_Shiftright · February 2010

I think the base MINI Cooper used this engine, or a variant therein. This is why early base MINIs have a bad rep.

hpmctorque · February 2010

Wait, you're not saying that the early base MINI used a 1.6 version of the Neon 2.0, are you?

andre1969 · February 2010

Wait, you're not saying that the early base MINI used a 1.6 version of the Neon 2.0, are you?

Good Lord, I hope not! That Neon 2.0 can be traced back to the old 2.2 that first debuted in the 1981 Aries/Reliant! :surprise: Although to its benefit, it was designed by the same guy who did the Slant six, so it was at least fairly simple, easy to service, and cheap to fix (at least, the older 2.2/2.5...dunno about the more recent 2.0/2.4 variants)

Mr_Shiftright · February 2010

Ah, no, I think I'm right and wrong at the same time.

The 1.6 engine I was thinking of is the Tritec engine built by Chrysler in Brazil, which was used in non-US market PT Cruiser. I wonder if it was also used on non-USA Neons?

This stunning recommendation comes from Ward's Auto:

"It was a very old-fashioned engine, cast iron and only one camshaft but four valves per cylinder, so there is no flexibility on valve train. This engine was just a very cheap engine, but also not very effective on function, performance and fuel efficiency.

bumpy · February 2010

I used to think the 1st-gen Neon used Mitsubishi engines because it had the same "DOHC bump" as the DSMs. Guess not.

hpmctorque · February 2010

That's right, that first MINI engine was sourced in Brazil. I believe -- hang on to your chair now! -- that Chrysler partnered with BMW for that engine. That doesn't sound quite as far out when you consider that, as we all know, BMW owns the MINI brand. If I'm correct about that particular partnering arrangement, I'm guessing that BMW was trying to get some economies of scale, and Chrysler was willing and able to do the deal. Designing and building an engine just for BMW's first generation MINI probably wasn't economically justifiable.

Incidentally, Chrysler sold Neons in Brazil. I saw a first generation Neon in a Chrysler showroom in Rio, and it actually had a leather interior. I don't know which engine(s) the Brazilian Neons had, but maybe that 1.6 was the base engine.

If my memory serves me right, BMW teamed up with Peugeot for the current generation MINI engine.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2010

That's right, although it was really Rover, owned by BMW, that did the partnering. So more like a "partner-in-law". :P

BMW prides itself on, and in fact has built its reputation on, its engines. The shift to the Peugeot-sourced engine was a vast improvement.

The early base MINI with the 1.6 Brazil engine + a CVT transmission is not a car you want to own.

martian · February 2010

Just looking around..I don't see amny Neons on the road. I guess they just didn't hold up..or the cost of repairing them exceeded the value of them (after 5-6 years)...leading them to the junkyards.
A shame..as others have pointed out, they were nice little cars.
I drove several 9rental cars0, and they handled well and had planty of power.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2010

Current private party book value for a 1996 Neon in clean condition is $743.

fintail · February 2010

My brother had a 96 Neon "Expresso" coupe, a pseudo-sport model with a spoiler and wheels. He got it nearly new, and by 2002 or so it was really going downhill fast, the interior wasn't holding up well, and the whole thing had a "junkyard" aura to it, through no fault of his own. Right around that time it was t-boned (on the passenger side, lucky for my brother) by a red light running DeVille, and destroyed. He did not mourn the loss.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Neon coupe.

toomanyfumes · February 2010

One of my neighbors college-age kids drives an older Neon. It leaks an unbelievable amount of oil. At least he keeps a pile of cat litter in the street where it's parked.

hpmctorque · February 2010

Yeah, once they swapped that obsolete 3-speed automatic for a 4-speed ('02 model year?), Neons became decent rentals. I rented about four of them; no complaints. I don't imagine they were great to own, but maybe by '02 they were a decent value proposition.

Andre, as our undisputed in house Mopar expert, what do you think about the '02 and later Neons?

andre1969 · February 2010

Andre, as our undisputed in house Mopar expert, what do you think about the '02 and later Neons?

I don't think they're too bad, although there are some details I don't like. If Chrysler had thrown a few more bucks into the interior, and let you get power rear windows (if you ordered power, you only got it for the front, rear windows were still crank!), and started offering a 4-speed automatic earlier on, I think it would have been a much more competitive car.

I was always impressed by the interior room of the Neon...both generations. The seats in something like a Corolla or Civic might have been better designed, but the best-designed seats in the world are useless if you don't have enough room!

A few years back, one of my friends had a Neon for a rental when his Crown Vic was in the shop. He was griping about how small and cheap it felt, but to be fair, when you have a bias towards bigger cars, MOST little cars are going to feel cheap to you. And his bias is worse than mine! Still, I rode around some in it with him and another friend, and thought it was okay.

If I needed a small, cheap car and found one at a decent price, I wouldn't be ashamed of it...even though there are better things out there.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2010

I think the early ones are kinda cute. I could make a decent car out of a Neon for maybe $15000 or so. It wouldn't be very much a Chrysler product however. If a MINI R53 supercharged motor would fit, that could be very cool.

british_rover · March 2010

Yes the non-usa Neons used the 1.6 liter without the eaton Supercharger as their base petrol motor.

I know back years ago when aftermarket performance parts for MINIs were way too expensive some of the hi-po neon components would work on the MINI. You could use the upgraded mopar performance coil packs for example on a MINI no problem.

I bet a SC 1.6 from a MINI would fit in a Neon no problem. Would be a hot, hot car too.

Imagine an ACR Neon with that motor, a smaller pulley, a big front mount intercooler and ignition upgrades would net you over 200 hp.

serenity185 · March 2010

Long-time lurker, one-time poster, but when the discussion of the Neon came up, I had to pipe in.

I guess I'm in the minority, but my 1998 Dodge Neon (just turned 111,000 miles yesterday) has held up pretty well and has been a surprisingly reliable car for me. I've had it for 6 years now and haven't had any problems with it (other than the cruise control not working).

It is a cheap car, for sure, but it's fun to drive, peppy, and has a design that has aged pretty well, imo (can't say the same for the second generation). I still see a fair number of them on the road.

ghulet · March 2010

....in my particular neighborhood, for some reason, which is rife with cheap, old cars (you can't swring a stick here without hitting a Cavalier), I never see Neons.

My experience with Neons is all allegorical, I don't think I've ever even ridden in one. I do have a friend who bought an earlier variety when she first married (1997 or so) and I do know her head gasket went out pretty quickly, though I don't know if it happened during or after the warranty period.

Cavaliers and Sunfires, while not exactly desirable, seem to hold up OK mechanically (like I said, I see them constantly), or maybe they're just cheap to fix? The same doesn't hold true with the bodies or interiors, most look like crap, although part of that may be due to what I'll refer to as Cheap Car Syndrome: they're more likely to be owned by young families with kids, uninsured (or unable to pay deductibles), and less likely to be babied in the first place, or repaired if something is damaged (there's a Cobalt on the next block that probably still has a payment book, but also has had a huge dent next to its front door for the past year or two).

lemko · March 2010

Well, the Neon population has decreased by one. A black Maxima just took out a purple one at Longshore and Oxford Ave in NE Philly at lunchtime yesterday.

fezo · March 2010

Down by another - my neighbor's daughter has one and it's now sitting in front of their house with the front caved in. I'm sure there is a story.

The daughter's boyfriend has a bright yellow Neon that looks to be in great shape. Well, cosmetically anyway - can't vouch for it mechanically though.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2010

Yeah I think some of this old American junk is pretty cheap to fix, and that's why you still see them around.

andre1969 · March 2010

Now that I think about it, the last car I saw broken down along the road was a Neon coupe. It was last week.

As for those Cavaliers and Sunfires, from what I've heard, they actually are pretty reliable...it's just that they annoy you along the way with a bad ride, squeaks and rattles, bad seat comfort, minor things breaking off, etc. But the drivetrains are reliable enough that you'll put up with the car long after many other cars have bit the dust.

I wonder...how do old Ford Focuses hold up, in comparison? I know when the 2000 came out, it quickly reached the ranks of the 1980 Citation and 1976 Aspen/Volare as most recalled car in history. But a lot of recalls doesn't always mean an unreliable car, provided the cars were fixed properly. Also, the Focus seemed like a car that got improved alot along the way, with increased attention to quality and details, so even if the first year or two might've been bad, they got better in later years.

fintail · March 2010

My sister has an 04 ZX5, bought it new...it must have over 150K on it now as she has a long commute and drives a lot...I think it has been flawless aside from a small electrical part that caused a problem last year. She's very happy with it.

ghulet · March 2010

.....seems like Ford must have sorted out the bugaboos prevalent on early edition Focuses, or your sister takes care of hers and/or has had good luck. A friend (now deceased) had one (but a base sedan, with the SOHC engine out of the old Escort) and honestly I thought the thing was going to self-destruct last time I rode in it. Clackety-clack. Then again, I don't imagine he was the best at taking care of his cars (he wasn't at much of anything else, either) :sick: . I don't remember those old engines having any inherent problems, other than having ~100hp.

fintail · March 2010

Yeah, she has learned to maintain a car by the book, that can't hurt. All servicing done on time. I don't know the engine specs, but her car is pretty loaded, and I think they had been upgraded by that time. I've rode in it several times, didn't seem bad for what it is...and I think that 5-door style was the best Focus.

I remember the electrical issue would make the car stall at random times, especially when pulling up to lights etc. Whatever it was, it was fixed.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2010

I think, when we say "worst", we have to differentiate between cars that *break down* all the time, and ones that just keep on running while their body and interior bio-degrade before our eyes.

berri · March 2010

seems like Ford must have sorted out the bugaboos prevalent on early edition Focuses

I see a lot of old Escorts on the road.

euphonium · March 2010

Our 57 Plymouth Belvedere Coupe, purchased new, Mar '58, was a beauty, but the engine and transmission was the worst. Within two years & 25,000 miles the Torqueflite had to be rebuilt and the connecting rod bearings were replaced in the 301 V8. In 1960 I traded it for an almost new 60 Corvair. One of the guys in my Army Reserve unit spied the old Plymouth on the car lot and asked me about it. I told him the truth, but he bought it anyway because it looked outstanding.

He spent his honeymoon in a garage in Sparks, NV replacing the engine and transmission with a wrecked police car's engine and tranny. Then it was OK.

After our family grew out of the Corvair, it was replaced by a '67 Ford Country Sedan 390 & that was one of the best wagons we ever had.

fintail · March 2010

My dad had a new 67 Galaxie convertible with a 390 that he thought very highly of - he talked about it a bit, although he sold it some time before I was born

My first car was a 66 Galaxie with a 390-4...this was in the early 90s, the car looked excellent but man that carb drove me insane. Guzzled gas like nothing I have ever seen, terribly cold blooded, either ran rich or lean...made me a FI convert.

ghulet · March 2010

oddly enough, my dad's father owned both a '57 Plymouth coupe (I think a cheapo Plaza model), then many Corvairs, including convertibles and wagons, and is probably the only person on earth to have owned both a diesel Chevette AND a diesel Escort (before he died in, I think, 1992 or '93, age 88); I come from a long line of cheapskates, apparently. I don't think I'm so much cheap, I'm definitely more broke; in hindsight, I'd have saved more and partied less, perhaps

.

ghulet · March 2010

yes, Fin, carbs are a pain-in-the-[non-permissible content removed] most of us don't miss. I've owned exactly three cars with them: my first, a '71 Electra, which at its weight would have guzzled gas with a Prius engine; a '77 Caprice, got decent gas mileage for its now meager power-to-weight (145hp versus ~3800 pounds), so no surprise there; neither GM had carb problems, really. Last was an '87 Honda Accord DX, which despite its fairly light weight, no power anything and being slow as molasses in Winter, really guzzled gas, once I figured out the MPG, and I remember my brother and the neighbors looking at me like I was nuts because I poured gas directly into the carb when it ran out of gas.

andre1969 · April 2010

My Mom's first car was a 1957 Plymouth 4-door, but she doesn't remember anything about it other than it was big, gray, and she didn't really like it. Oh, and at some point, one of the windows shattered when someone slammed a door. She bought it used in 1965 at the age of 16 for $75.

Kind of a shame she didn't hold on to that one, as I would've loved to have had something like that! But, as a junior in high school, how was she to know that one day she'd get married and have a son who would ultimately grow up to have a fascination with these Forward Look beasts?

But, alas, I didn't reach driving age until 1986. I'm sure that '57 Plymouth would've been shot by then unless it had been kept garaged and lovingly maintained. And if she kept my father away from it. He had her '66 Catalina convertible pretty ragged out by 1972!

ghulet · April 2010

.....not that cars, even now, respond well to sheer abuse, but cars back then, well, we're pretty often shot by the time they were six years old or so....indeed, our '64 Beetle was clapped-out enough that it was given to my aunt and uncle by 1971, and its replacement, our '71 Datsun 510, was raggedy enough that dad either gave or sold it (cheaply) to another uncle in 1977 or '78. Grandparents' '73 Chevy wagon, dead and gone by '79 or so (though, admittedly, it had been subjected to four teenagers by then).

Six years old seems barely broken-in to me now, in most cases.

lemko · April 2010

My wife's first car was a teal blue 1966 Ford Galaxie sedan with a a black cloth and vinyl interior passed down to her from her Dad who bought it new. It probably had a more pedestrian 289 or 302 V-8 as her Dad was a pretty conservative guy.

lemko · April 2010

Somebody mentioned the 301 in their 1957 Plymouth was troublesome. Did this engine have a bad reputation? What engine do you have in the DeSoto?

ghulet · April 2010

....my Grandpa's '57 Plymouth would have had a six with a three-on-the-tree....I don't think he ever owned a V-8 car, or one with an automatic, in his life.

Lemko, I'm think the base V-8 in '66 Fords would have been that 289 you mentioned (available in at least a couple variations; I think the 302 debuted for '68), and the next step up would have been a 390 2-barrel (351s didn't come along til maybe '69 or '70, IIRC) and going up from there (390 four-barrel, and a couple 428s).

fintail · April 2010

I have had 2 carb cars - the Galaxie and a brief period with a Datsun 510 wagon that I flipped (sold, not rolled :shades: ) as it was more or less given to me and the carb in it too was troublesome. Soon after that I bought the fintail, which is FI...and I haven't looked back. Although it seems other people I know with carb cars don't seem to have problems...I have a friend with a couple old Monte Carlos, and they run just fine...my brother loves his little 80s Toyota pickup, 22R and he hasn't had to touch the carb...my dad also had a number of old cars over the years, I don't remember anything being as troublesome as the Galaxie. 8mpg in town, ran horrible when cold no matter what was done...but that engine was pretty powerful and loud, at 16 those can make up for other failings.

fintail · April 2010

Yeah ghulet is right, 302 came around for mid-year 68, in the mid 90s my dad had a 68 Fairlane with one of the last 289s. 352 was also offered through 66 or 67 IIRC. My car was dark blue with a medium blue interior, it wasn't bad looking.

lemko · April 2010

How about one of those fabled "7 Litre" Galaxies? You even got a nicer grille on a 1966.

fintail · April 2010

Yeah, those are minor collectibles now, with the big 428 and some fancy trim.

I remember when my car got hit, the first thing I thought about was the grille being bent up, as mine was virtually flawless. The car wa ruined, but the grille hit my mind first.

au1994 · April 2010

I had a 66 Mustang with a 289 2bbl. Cold natured is an understatement. Getting that thing to start on a winter morning was no problem. It was getting it to stay running that took some work. Sputter and die, sputter and die unless Ieft my foot on the gas pedal. Eventually, I started putting the top of a pizza box over the radiator in the winter to help it warm up quicker.

texases · April 2010

I guess the 'fun' of carbs gets lost in those rose colored glasses we like to wear. C&D did a comparison of hot pony cars of the time. Major comment? How badly they all ran, with troublesome carbs the rule, not the exception.

andre1969 · April 2010

Somebody mentioned the 301 in their 1957 Plymouth was troublesome. Did this engine have a bad reputation? What engine do you have in the DeSoto?

I don't think the 301 in general had a bad reputation. However, the '57 Plymouth was wildly popular, more than Chrysler had anticipated, so they were slapping the things together as quickly as possible to keep up with demand. As a result, normally-reliable components such as the engine and the Torqueflite transmission were slapped together faster as well, ensuring a higher failure rate. A 301 is just one size of the generic Mopar smallblock "A" engine. Other sizes were the 277, 318, and 326 (1959 Dodge only). Mopar also offered a 325 that was used in 1957 DeSoto Firesweeps and '57-58 Dodges, but I think it was a different engine.

Further up the ranks, while Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler, and Imperial were all strong sellers in 1957, they also sold on smaller volume, so they weren't quite as rushed. My DeSoto has a 341-2bbl Hemi. They were heavy, took up a lot of space, and were expensive to build and somewhat complicated for the time, but generally reliable, and gave good hp and economy considering their displacement.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2010

57 Chrysler products developed a reputation in their day for being notorious rusters and exhibiting (even by Detroit standards) very shoddy fit and finish...although no one used that term back then.

Part of this isn't really the car's "fault"---in those days styling was vibrant, wacky and irrational, and some cars were put together in such a way as to invite immediate destruction from water intrusion, salt, etc. Some had little "traps" behind the wheels, perfect for accumulating road debris. Others had moldings that acted as little dams and catch-alls for water. Some had such body flex or bizarre curvatures, that water easily got behind front and rear windshield seals.

fintail · April 2010

That's exactly how my Galaxie was. It would start fine (although it always seemed to start too rich), but if you tried to drive it when cold, you had to be very delicate and precise with the gas, or it would stall - and it loved to play that trick on me, especially pulling away from lights or going around corners. Once it had been running for about 10 mins, it would be fine. I don't miss dealing with that.

Funny thing, the 289 Fairlane my dad had didn't have any problems like that.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2010

OMG those big block Fords sucked gas at such an alarming rate, it was difficult for the human brain to comprehend. You'd be looking under the car for gas pouring out--you just couldn't believe the gas gauge could go down that fast without someone actually stealing it from you. And it didn't matter if you drove fast or slow, highway or traffic. Compared to GM cars of the day they idled badly, ran badly and felt pretty cheesy in the early to mid 60s at least.

The 302 was a good little engine but it had a weakness---stretching timing chains.

Probably the crappiest Ford ever made after WWII was the 60 Falcon with the 144 cid 6 in it. That made a VW feel like a Bentley Mulsanne. GM entered the crappy car race with the Vega, but Chrysler just couldn't make that bad a car. The early '60s Rambler American was another contender. I can still remember that the labels on the instrument panel were actually water-based decals like you got on model airplanes. AND they had flathead 6s and rubber floor mats. In their defense, they were CHEAP to buy.

lemko · April 2010

If I were shopping for a compact in 1960, I'd have purchased a Valiant. It had the nicest styling for one and came with the legendary Slant-6. The Falcon was too boring and the Corvair was too weird. The Rambler American was a rehash of an early '50s design and the Lark was ...meh...a Studebaker.

fintail · April 2010

That Galaxie literally got single digit mpg in town, not helped by my jerky teenaged driving, of course. It could maybe get 12-14 on the highway, but not a drop more. That car kept me pretty broke during the time I owned it, always scrambling to make money to feed it. Maybe my dad let me buy it to teach me a lesson :shades:

Hey, my fintail has rubber floormats, and it wasn't even a cheap car!

andre1969 · April 2010

I probably would've gone with a Valiant as well...just with the larger 225 slant six instead of the standard 170. I actually prefer the style of the '61-62 Lancer though. I like the grille better, and IIRC, the Lancer didn't have that "toilet seat" bulge on the trunk like the Valiant did.

It's funny...the Valiant had the shortest wheelbase of those early Big-Three compacts...106.5" versus 108" for the Corvair and something like 109.5 for the Falcon. Yet the Valiant almost feels midsized to me, while there's no denying the other two are compacts.

I have a feeling those old 108" Ramblers would have also been classified as midsized cars, had there been such a term in the 50's.

In 1961, if I wanted a small car, I think I might have been swayed by the Olds F-85. I think all of GM's "senior" compacts looked good that year, but there's just something about the F-85 that appeals to me.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2010

Yeah but didn't the F-85 have the dreaded 215 cid V8? Mr. Meltdown?

I forgot about the Lark. Clunky thing, but later ones were fun with a V8 and 4-speed.

I had a '65 Valiant with a 4-speed. I liked that car.

andre1969 · April 2010

Yeah but didn't the F-85 have the dreaded 215 cid V8? Mr. Meltdown?

Yeah it did, but at the time the typical 1961 buyer didn't know that. So if I were buying a car like that back then, I probably would have bought one, have it melt down, and then get so fed up that I swore off GM forever!

On that note, I know sometimes we fantasize about being able to go back in time and buy some of these cars when they were new, but sometimes, that might not be a good thing. For example, as much as I love the '57 DeSoto, I could see it if I was living back then, buying one for the styling, having it be nothing but trouble for me, and irritating me enough that I'd never buy another Mopar! And today I'd be a bitter old man on these message boards, griping about what a piece of junk that thing was!

50 Worst Cars of All Time

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