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The inputs needed are
Actual aquisition cost..
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Cost of fuel with an escalator for the length of ownership, then averaged. If you go to GasBuddy.com or EIA.doe.gov you can get a feel for where the price of gasoline is going and create an inflation factor. My own is $.50 per gallon per year. 2008 was an extreme aberation on both sides, top and bottom.
Fuel Economy, EPA and best guesstimate on real world circumstances.
RESALE VALUE!!!!
I'm not in that group, as you accused me of. The group I'm in says why pay $7,000 more for the batteries/electrics in a Fusion Hyb than a comparably equipped plain Fusion that still gets 33 MPG hiway. My group also doesn't like the decrease in braking performance, handling, and steering from hauling around the extra 400 lbs of batteries/electrics over a plain Fusion. My group also doesn't put on over 15,000 miles per year, which means its very difficult to recoup the extra $7,000 cost sooner than about 8 years.
Thank-you! I'm free now, because of your permission.
Then there is the ridiculous situation of last summer where 1 y.o. hybrids were selling at higher prices than NEW hybrids at MSRP. Not only was there no depreciation but after one year there was significan't appreciation. Highly unusual? Yes but that was the situation for the better part of 3-4 months.
To reply to the OP about the heater I'd guess that the ICE kicks on pretty quickly after it warms up in order to heat the cabin. Actually all vehicles lose about 10% of their nominal fuel economy rating in the winter because the ICE has to run more frequently. This is especially true of the hybrids. The ICE has to warm the fluids, warm the cabin - continuously and warm up the catalytic converter. The ICE has a LOT of work to do in wintertime. Thus fuel economy suffers.
Like I said in the other thread, I'll bet you're a capable salesman, but this is just not your area.
However in wintertime the ICE in the hybrid has to run more frequently for the reasons I noted above. There is nothing surprising about this if you've ever owned one as many here have. But to make statements such as yours above indicates that you've never put much - if any - time behind the wheel of a hybrid. Thus your assumptions are at best guesses - and they're wrong. There are 10 yrs of driving experiences all over the internet. You need to leave the 20th Century and bring yourself up-to-date. C'mon ol' timer. This is a new era, it's not that scary.
Most people don't want to hear all the arguments for the details about the tech but simply want to know does it work and will I be able to make it work like it's supposed it.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ford-escape.htm
I have nothing against car salesman like kdhspyder in general, its just that you can't argue on the facts with many of them, as I've seen over the years, and they aren't automotive engineers. No surprise kdhspyder doesn't read or comprehend my posts here.
I hope you do order one, because you sound like you don't mind paying the extra cash for the hybrid's electric motors and batteries, and I'll bet you wouldn't mind reducing the foreign oil dependency in North America. All great reasons to buy a hybrid if you've got the bucks.
Yes they will all work to improve efficencies and fuel economy. But on top of all these improvements if you add an efficient hybrid system it's like multiplying the results by a coefficient of 1.3 to 1.4.
The new FFH and the new G3 Prius and the Lexus 250h are all examples of this. The ICE improvements, tranny efficiencies and new designs are then improved by 30-40% by the addition of the respective hybrid systems.
This is your blind spot that you continue to ignore.
Take it elsewhere.... like, to another site. No one here wants to watch you trade barbs. We're interested in the 2010 hybrid Fusion/Milan.
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This forum is for discussion of the upcoming Fusion/Milan hybrid only.
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No moderator owes anyone an apology for trying to take care of their responsibilities here. And all of us must realize from time to time that print messages without facial expression, intonation and other body language is easily misconstrued. Most times, it is not worth trying to "set straight." Don't take it personally, but do let it go.
She is right this is about Fusion Hybrids. I will therefore go back to my question that I had before the Toyota salesman kdhsypder starting getting Toyota-selling into these Fusion Hybrid discussions (I'm hoping someone has some concrete answers, not sales-talk fluff):
I was wondering why the Camry hybrid has such pathetic MPG compared to the Fusion Hybrid. It could be a more powerful, more advanced battery pack, and better engine control software in the Fusion vs. the less capable Camry. Specifics would be nice.
Anybody have any idea why the Camry gets beat so badly in this critical area for a hybrid? How did Ford engineers create a superior product?
New 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine (155 horsepower/136 lb.-ft. of torque) running the proven Atkinson cycle mated to an electronically-controlled continuously variable transmission or e-CVT.
Intake Variable Cam Timing (iVCT), which allows the vehicle to more seamlessly transition from gas to electric mode and vice-versa. The spark and cam timing are varied according to the engine load to optimize efficiency and emissions.
Enhanced electronic throttle control reduces airflow on shutdowns, reducing fueling needs on restarts.
Wide-band lambda sensor analyzes the air-fuel ratio and adjusts the lean/rich mixture accordingly to keep the system in balance and to minimize emissions.
A new smaller, lighter nickel-metal hydride battery has been optimized to produce 20 percent more power. Improved chemistry allows the battery to be run at a higher temperature and it is cooled using cabin air.
An added variable voltage converter boosts the voltage to the traction battery to operate the motor and generator more efficiently.
A new high-efficiency converter provides 14 percent increased output to accommodate a wider array of vehicle features.
Smarter climate control system monitors cabin temperature and only runs the gas engine as needed to heat the cabin; it also includes an electric air conditioning compressor to further minimize engine use.
The regenerative brake system captures the energy normally lost through friction in braking and stores it. Nearly 94 percent energy recovery is achieved by first delivering full regenerative braking followed by friction brakes during city driving.
As far as the thread about when the Fusion will make it into the showrooms, does anyone know more than March, before April?
WLN
Now, back to the hybrids. Of course specifics would be nice, but really, it stands to reason. The Fusion set-up is several years newer. It should be better. The Camry mileage isn't "pathetic" by comparison. It is less, but Camry is soon due for a new generation that will likely leapfrog the Fusion when it comes out.
Remember too, everything is a tradeoff. The Fusion has less hp than Camry, which probably helps with EPA mpg. It does have a more advanced battery pack and better engine control software. The Fusion is also 200-300 lbs heavier. Now, if you look at the real world test of the mid-size hybrids in C&D, the Fusion beat Camry in mpg, but not nearly by the gap EPA suggests. Some of that "gap softening" may be due to moving that extra baggage in real world comparison tests.
Competition keeps the product developing steadily. It's great to see all these choices appearing with even more regularity.
"I have nothing against car salesman like kdhspyder in general, its just that you can't argue on the facts with many of them, as I've seen over the years, and they aren't automotive engineers. No surprise kdhspyder doesn't read or comprehend my posts here. "
Not one word about the FFH.
And this type of question leads people to talk about Toyota, not the Ford.
Let's get back on track here please. Thanks for your cooperation and participation.
It's helpful for potential buyers to know about both the TCH and the FFH.
In regard to "how did 'Yota get one-upped?" the answer is the model year.
The technology in the TCH is about 4 years old, from road-testable car to now. That means the design took place longer ago than that.
If Toyota wanted to do a whole brand-new TCH with the HSD technology they have right now which will be coming out in the new Prius, then the TCH would likely challenge or surpass the FFH.
The FFH is impressive on it's own merits, however, Toyota's situation notwithstanding.
They will certainly "steal" some sales from the TCH.
Any estimates on the number available for the initial release, or with in the first few months?
Wyatt
Good job by Ford. At some time in the future some other vehicle makers will one-up Ford and the progress will continue onward.
When the vehicles hit the roads and buyers begin to drive them the data should be more real world experiences. Then that's what people will be discussing.
Where is the best place to sell a car these days?
Also, any idea when we can get some idea on the pricing and options on the fusion? I keep getting the idea they may be thinking about delaying production. We knew more about the 09 Mazda 6 by this point before it's release.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_f- ord_fusion_hybrid_short_take_road_test
The Fusion already has a great reputation for reliability/quality/fit/finish. Now with this on top of it.. Fusion sales will increase in the coming years is my prediction. :shades:
Their new battery supplier has to get up and cranking soon, very soon.