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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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Comments

  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    coldcranker,

    I agree with all you have said. The only point I am making is that there are two views to the tax credit issue. I have checked with an accountant and tax attorney who told me that Ford's opinion is correct. Namely, if the vehicle is ordered in the buyer's name (and I mean a specific vehicle that gets forwarded to Ford for production) and that same vehicle (not a different one from the lot) is purchased, the date of ORDER controls the credit amount (as long as delivery is taken in 2009).

    I am satisfied that I have researched the issue correctly and will claim the $3400 tax credit on next year's return. I am not skirting the law. Rather, I am interpreting the law in a manner consistent with advice from the vendor (Ford) and my professional tax consultant. :shades:
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Why cant we? When you place the order, don't you put money down on it? If so, then by all means, that was the date the purchase took place, so therefore, that is the date you claim on your tax forms. If you use TurboTax, it is pretty specific in the wizards and is very accurate when it comes to these types of credits.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just read the IRS tax law and do it.

    That will be difficult as the 2009 tax code will not be published until long after 3/31/09. It has been a crap shoot from the get go. Many Prius owners filed in good faith only to find out that you could not claim the tax credit if you were subject to AMT. That is the category I have been in. Making the tax credits worthless for me. Filing what you believe to be a legal deduction is not a crime. If you are audited and find that it was NOT a legal deduction you have to pay the tax. I could give you dozens of instances of deductions that are not specifically addressed in the tax code, yet legal. If you do not file for it You will not get it.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That part of the tax code is already published - the one that deals with the tax credit. You are right that there may be other limitations like the AMT but not the deadlines and tax credit rules.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    replying to acdii's post #395 above: The point is, the Camry is not competitive with other sedans of the same size out there. Your comparison of it to a Crown Vic is strange, since the Crown Vic is an old design of a much larger vehicle, not even available any more except to fleets. Emergency handling and steering is important. Steering feel is important. Safety. Thing is, a modern sedan should be competitive in its class, and Toyota continues to screw up the Camry and many of its other products. I don't know why. I driven them, and every other non-Toyota product is much superior. Also, every car magazine says Toyotas handle poorly. For those people who don't mind crappy handling and steering, and don't care about safety, then Toyota has cars for them. I just don't thats being intelligent.
  • otisnjotisnj Member Posts: 15
    Has anyone out there actually seen one of these things at a dealer? I called three dealers this afternoon in northern New Jersey. Two had no idea when they would receive any with one dealer saying he hoped to receive a silver one in a week or two.

    Has anyone had any conversations about price with a dealer? Any flexibility?

    Also, Has anyone (not a journalist) been able to take one for a test drive? I wonder how willing dealers will be to allow test drives with them receiving so few.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They just released the 2010 models to start shipping to dealers. Not sure if that includes hybrids yet.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Has anyone out there actually seen one of these things at a dealer? I called three dealers this afternoon in northern New Jersey. Two had no idea when they would receive any with one dealer saying he hoped to receive a silver one in a week or two.


    I heard late April/May for the Hybrid, with the regular ones on the way now.
  • WyattNicholsWyattNichols Member Posts: 55
    Well, I have been talking with a dealer since late Feb. He was told his first one would be delivered on 3/2/09. When it didn't show-up, Ford hasn't given a new date.

    My wife and I went in this AM to order one so we can meet the 3/31/09 deadline for ordering and having a VIN. The salesman was honest about no idea when he would get his first hybrid that he had ordered months ago. So, April/May sounds reasonable. That's OK with me as long as I'm eligible for the full tax credit.

    They are not coming off the MRSP, but may give a little on trade in. I don't like buying a new model car that hasn't had the bugs worked out of it, but I'm going to take a chance for this one.

    Wyatt
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The time of worrying about buying a new model is past. Automakers do not get good quality scores by "working out the bugs" of a new model by selling it to people, and fixing what crops up later. Ford stopped that BS a while ago, after certain Japanese manufacturers showed with some models that it was not necessary. Some recalls today are of models that have actually been on the market for awhile, but the supplier or part has changed, and this subsequently proves to be problematic. Fusions rate very well on quality and there is no reason to believe the hybrid will be any different.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Well, then I guess that makes me a superior driver then since I don't have any issues with its handling! I take curves designed for 25 @ 40 in the Camry and it handles them quite well. I am also accustomed to driving big rear wheel drive cars, so the handling in the Camry is much better than a big tank that floats, and I can take the Camry around curves just as quick as a Vette without any problems, it leans a lot more, but that just makes it more fun. I will take a Camry over a Prius ANY day! The Prius is one scary car at times, and unless there have been some major improvements with its TC, and cross wind handling, I wont be getting a second.
  • oregongaloregongal Member Posts: 3
    We thought we were in the same boat by paying the AMT = no tax credit. Talked to our tax accountant last week though to varify since I really want a Fusion Hybrid but wanted the credit too. He researched it and told us that the amt patch from last year that allowed hybrid tax credits for amt payers would be carried over until the end of this year. There is also a credit for plug-ins, but they are not available yet. We are going to trust his advice and order one this week. We are the first one to order in our town, and paying msrp.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Tax Credits were intended to help the vehicle makers recoup their respective costs of development.

    Toyota or Honda or Ford could charge 'full price' for the vehicle ( for about 100,000+ vehicles ) but the buyers would get a discount from the Feds via the IRS. This allowed the vehicle makers to get their money up front. If the average tax credit was say $2000 and the vehicle maker sold say 120,000 units that was about $250 million passed along to them. It didn't pay for the entire R&D bill but it surely helped.

    IMO this is good use of tax money.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually this is not true.

    Because of the crazy CA buyers who had more money than they knew what to do with they paid Toyota its full price and ( subject to AMT ) got the full Tax Credit. Then they also agreed to pay the dealer an additional $2000 - $5000 just because they could and because they saw value in doing so.

    The overcharges were mainly in SoCal and the SET region. But these buyers apparently were OK with overpaying the dealer. Who's to say they were wrong. It was their money and they saw value in doing it. Trying to impose your values on the entire public is like screaming for the wind to stop.

    It's neither bad nor good, it just is.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    replying to acdii's post #395 above: The point is, the Camry is not competitive with other sedans of the same size out there.

    This is just a goofy statement. Not only is it competitive but it is in fact the leader in the entire auto segment for the entire country. Be real.

    'Not competitive' describes the Sebring. Rooting is good but be realistic at least.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    replying to acdii's post #395 above: The point is, the Camry is not competitive with other sedans of the same size out there

    This is just a goofy statement. Not only is it competitive but it is in fact the leader in the entire auto segment for the entire country. Be real.

    My PNW Toyota selling friend, "competitive" is a loaded word. I think if the way you define competitive is with respect to total sales numbers (which is logical enough) I totally agree with your statement. If you use a different measure, say lateral grip, body roll, fuel economy, availability of certain options or features on certain trim levels, its dicier. I didn't feel the '07 Altima was competitive because it was too hard to get ABS. Different criteria for different folks, thats all.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Because of the crazy CA buyers who had more money than they knew what to do with they paid Toyota its full price

    I would NEVER try to defend the idiocy of the average Californian. Looks like Toyota made a miscalculation from the boatloads of Prius waiting to find a sucker. Our friends that are taking a pastorate job on Maui have a new Prius. They were going to try and sell it here. I told them to take it to Hawaii with them. The Price of gas will make it worthwhile. There are no high speed roads on Maui so the Prius is a good vehicle for there. They would get absolutely trashed selling it here today.

    My question to you the sales person. How do you explain the HUGE hit the guy will take on his 3 year old Prius when he goes to buy a new one? You know that dumby that paid $2000 over MSRP. That is a double edged sword that can kill you on a return customer.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    Kdhspyder,

    You wrote: "I would NEVER try to defend the idiocy of the average Californian."

    Now that is an awful statement to make. Has a Californian ever done something to you that you disliked? Do they have three eyes on their heads? It never ceases to amaze me the disdain many have for CA. I have lived in many places (including CA) and don't quite understand the attitude. I guess I am just an idiot. But those of you who cast such aspersions are fools and jerks. :mad:

    EOM.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Yikes! Slinging mud back never makes anything better. Back to FFH please!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Now that is an awful statement to make. Has a Californian ever done something to you that you disliked?

    Yes, they have raised our taxes by electing tax and spend politicians to Sacramento. You see I was raised here and have maintained a home here most of the last 65 years. So the ignorance of the average CA voter is very prominent in my mind. Voting in the HST that will only benefit a small minority of CA residents is the latest travesty we will have to pay for.

    Back to FFH. You will really have to want the technology to cough up $8k extra.

    Ford priced its new hybrid Fusion, which dealers expect to start receiving this month, $8,000 above the gasoline-only version.

    Ford expects to produce about 20,000 Fusion and Milan hybrids this year, or about 1% of its total production.

    "It's a tough time to bring out almost any product right now," said George Pipas, the company's chief sales analyst. "But getting hybrids out right now is as much about image as anything else."

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hybrid17-2009mar17,0,6682265.story
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I never said that. My good friend gagrice wrote that....and he is a Californian.

    I said that they were 'crazy Californians' because they overpaid for their vehicles but then I gave a justification for why they might have done so. So maybe they weren't so 'crazy' afterall. Not to be so touchy. ;)
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Yes, they have raised our taxes by electing tax and spend politicians to Sacramento

    Not only in CA, all those who voted to get the idiots who are now in office wasting our tax dollars on the likes of AIG and others, all fit in the same category. Here in IL, a 50% tax increase is in the works, in a time of recession, raising taxes on those who still have jobs, really sucks.

    There goes my plans for a new Fusion.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford priced its new hybrid Fusion, which dealers expect to start receiving this month, $8,000 above the gasoline-only version.

    What a stupid thing to say. They're comparing a base S model with no equipment to a fully loaded hybrid. Technically it may be true but you're not paying $8k just for the hybrid drivetrain.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Oh, that is a common tactic for the hybrid deniers.

    Just like in the old days, they were comparing the lowest-end Civic to the Civic Hybrid and coming up with outrageous price differences to make their invalid point.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    Exactly gagrice. One needs to compare apples to apples. The $8k difference is base 2010 fusion to base 2010 FFH. The real comparison is the Fusion SEL to the base Hybrid. The difference is about $3k. With the tax credit (either 3400 or 1700) and the fuel savings, the difference is minimal, if any at all.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    For 5 yrs now our good friend gagrice has been the thumping drum of the anti-hybrid movement. 'Til now it was mostly directed toward the Toyota hybrids but now that Ford has a couple of very visible and leading models of its own they too will be in his sights i believe.

    OTOH alternate opinions are always good in every discussion. It makes everyone rethink, reconsider and reanalyze the rationales for why some buy and some do not. His inputs have actually helped me understand better the, shall we say, more skeptical viewpoint.

    For example for someone on a limited budget and not able to afford any vehicle above $20000 none of the hybrids, til now, make any sense whether they are fuel misers or not. A new Focus or a used Fusion is a better buy for this group.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Or a Honda Insight...
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,306
    i saw a toyota ad for 1k cash back on a prius. that does not encourage anyone to pay anything over invoice. negotiate the other charges.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    'Til now it was mostly directed toward the Toyota hybrids but now that Ford has a couple of very visible and leading models of its own they too will be in his sights i believe.

    I only posted an LA Times piece that made the $8k statement. I personally do not think Ford is interested in selling too many hybrids. THEY ARE A LOSS for them. Being a Stock Holder I would just as soon they sold cars at a profit.

    Until someone can go to a Ford showroom and see what they can get for their hard earned dollar both hybrid and non hybrid it will be all speculation. I know for a fact my BIL tried buying an Escape Hybrid in October and ended up with a loaded V6 for $10k less than the hybrid. You cannot compare MSRP and get a real world number. I would say you will pay MSRP for the Fusion Hybrid for at least this year. It does look like a winner if you can call a hybrid a winner :blush:

    PS
    A 2009 Fusion AWD SEL loaded with V6 can be had for about $7000 under MSRP. So that is your starting point for the FFH.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    Gagrice,

    You said: "A 2009 Fusion AWD SEL loaded with V6 can be had for about $7000 under MSRP. So that is your starting point for the FFH."

    Again a faulty comparison. The 2010 Fusions are redone throughout the entire line. The true comparison is between an SEL 2010 Fusion and comparably equipped FFH.

    And at least here in CA (the best state in the country because it has the best people!!!) the dealers are discounting hybrids as much as non-hybrids (at least for now). With gas around $2, hybrids are a complete steal. The high prices of the vehicles in the Summer are gone. It just befuddles me that the consumer thinks cheap gas is here to stay. I, for one, and taking advantage and buying a FFH. It will double my mpg, so now gas will be the equivalent of $1 per gallon. When it goes back up to $4 and beyond, I will save even more. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Yes my comparison was with the 2009 Fusion. There are no 2010 Fusions to compare with. If you think that Ford will discount the FFH for the near future you are very hopeful indeed. I think they will sell all they make at MSRP for at least a year. I don't see dealers even bringing the 2010 non hybrid Fusion in numbers until they have sold their 2008 & 2009 model fusions that are stacked to the sky. There is $3500 rebate on the 2009 not sure how much on the 2008 models. You can rationalize all you like. There is NO WAY you will ever save enough gas with the FFH to justify $8k to $10k difference. It is purely you want one. Which is fine. That is why I will continue to maintain that Californians are crazy. Has nothing to do with economics. Just being first with the latest. Like lining up over night to get an iPhone. Those people are NUTS. And one of my close friends did that and HE IS NUTS. Always broke and has a good job.

    So if $8k means nothing to you go for the FFH.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't disagree with your premise - you probably won't save money overall by buying a FFH over a standard 4 cylinder model. But the issue is that you're implying that it costs $8K-$10K more JUST for the hybrid powertrain which is totally wrong. You're also forgetting the $3400 tax credit.

    Anyone who thinks they're saving money by buying a FFH is simply rationalizing their desires. I prefer to think about it as just another drivetrain option for someone who wants a loaded Fusion, and in that case (especially with the tax credit) it's not a bad deal.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    A 2009 Fusion AWD SEL loaded with V6 can be had for about $7000 under MSRP. So that is your starting point for the FFH.

    I think not. It does not have the 2010 upgrades, and of course it would be wortth far less than a 2010 if you had to sell it again within 3-4 years. However, if the quieter interior, upgraded interior materials, and higher gas mileage are not that important, and you intend to keep the vehicle a long time, then it is a substantial savings.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Around here you can get a Camry Hybrid for $3000 off MSRP. They are trying to move them now that gas is low. If you want one, now is the time to get one, especially before April rolls around, dealers are looking to clear inventory before the tax year ends. When I bought a Prius, it was the beginning of April, the last day of special financing. When I got the Camry Hybrid, it was also in April, and I got it for $200 over invoice. I got it at the right time, just before gas skyrocketed. For those who say the hybrid doesn't pay, well I beg to differ, I have three vehicles I keep records on. The Camry, a Veracruz, and an F350. $27 a week in gas for the Camry, double that for the Veracruz, Triple that for the F350. The closest comparison of the TCH would be the V6 powered one, the I4 less HP than the Hybrid, which is closer to the V6. The I4 is 158HP, 161LbFt of torque, the Hybrid is 187 HP combined, 397LbFt of torque combined, and the V6 268 HP, 248 LbFt. VSC and Smart Key are standard, an option on the XLE. Other than leather, heated seats, and Nav, I have everything the XLE has, which has a higher invoice price than the Hybrid did at the time I purchased it. Now for MPG.

    V6 XLE 19/28
    Hybrid 33/34
    I4 XLE 21/31

    My summertime average is 43 MPG, winter is 34 MPG. If I had the V6, I would be getting 24 -28 max. I wouldn't even consider the I4.

    Highlander Hybrid? forgetaboutit, that one right there meets or exceeds the argument about not being able to recoup the difference. IE Totally agree.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    Gagrice,

    You wrote: "If you think that Ford will discount the FFH for the near future you are very hopeful indeed. I think they will sell all they make at MSRP for at least a year."

    Well, here in California, I ordered my loaded FFH for $500 over invoice. That is more than $2000 below sticker. With the tax credit (3400), it is LESS than the INVOICE for the 2010 SEL V-6 with same options. I don't need to rationalize spending more money on a hybrid, because I didn't. :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    THAT's a very good deal on a vehicle that hasnt hit the streets yet and as gagrice noted will be in short supply in almost every area of the country.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Wow! Good for you. Congrats on getting a great deal.

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  • oregongaloregongal Member Posts: 3
    Dang, I thought I was lucky to get 500 off MSRP for a fully loaded FFH! Of course, here in Oregon we have no sales tax, plus a 1500 state tax credit for hybrids, plus the $3400 federal credit, so probably I come out ahead! I make it a habit never to pay MSRP, let alone go over it, no matter how bad I want a car. Guess I should have tried a little harder on this deal though!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,306
    i think you should educate yourself on following the progress of your ordered FFH.
    there are some dedicated ford sites where you can find this info.
    sorry, but personally, i think you have been sold a bill of goods.
    i hope i am wrong.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    oregongal,

    I had a special pricing deal through my employer for hybrid vehicles. Otherwise, I would have paid close to sticker. The dealer was fine with it since my order was not part of his allocation
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I had a special pricing deal through my employer for hybrid vehicles.

    As Paul Harvey would say "Now you know the REST of the Story".

    If you can get the deal closed before April 1st you will save a couple months gas, as CA Sales tax is slated to go up 1%. Parts of San Diego will be 9.75%. Which is crazy. One company up around SF was giving employees $5000 to purchase a Prius a few years back. That and a tax credit will bring the hybrids to a reasonable price.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    As Paul Harvey would say "Now you know the REST of the Story".

    Used to say....sadly.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    My vehicle is set to go into production the week of 4/13/09, so I won't get the car before the sales tax goes up. But I will recoup some of it since sales tax on a new vehicle purchase is deductible. But under Ford's "retail order by 3/31" plan (of which my dealer said I am under) I am eligible for the full $3400 tax credit. :D

    And today oil is at $50 per barrel. Hybrids are at invoice today; and were over sticker last Summer. I just don't get it. Doesn't anyone realize that gas prices are low right now because of expectations of a global recession/depression lasting a long time. Once (or if) that expectation gets changed, oil is headed higher. It might not go up over $100 per barrel, but it will be higher.

    Meanwhile, my average mpg will double from my current car (V6 Accord) so I am happy. Doing my small part for the world is also a plus. Driving a nice new ride with some cool gadgets also makes me :D
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Doesn't anyone realize that it's cheaper to keep a car that's already paid for than to go out and buy a new car just to save a few bucks in fuel at some point in the future?

    I had no problem with $4/gallon gas (I didn't like it, but it wasn't a hardship) the first time around. When it's time to buy a new vehicle I'll consider a hybrid as an option but to imply that people should be rushing out to buy hybrids because gas will go up in the future is a little alarmist.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    akirby,

    I don't disagree with your premise. But in my situation, my lease is up on my Accord, so I need a new ride (or have to buy out the lease). In my situation, it makes sense. Plus, I REALLY want that car!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Good point, Allen. But if people started buying vehicles for rational reasons, the industry would be in an even bigger world of hurt. It is almost always cheaper to keep a car that is paid for than to go out and buy a new car. Except for a small minority of the buying public, it is an emotional decision as well. Self-image is in there big time.

    $4 gasoline is a bit a problem with me, because I drive so far to work, work part-time, and will never be paid so much that I have to worry about paying AMT. I have bought too many cars for someone at my income level, but have slowed that considerably (I'd rather have more free time at this point in my life than money). High mpg will figure prominently in that next purchase, as I am realistic enough to know that $4 gas will be back much sooner than it might seem right now.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Doesn't anyone realize that it's cheaper to keep a car that's already paid for than to go out and buy a new car just to save a few bucks in fuel at some point in the future?

    Depends on the car. My wife had a 97 Exploder that was paid for, but with 116,000 miles on it, age was taking its toll. When the trip to work is 40+ miles one way, you don't drive a car with high miles that may drop a part at any time. Twice it had to be towed in for repairs. It was cheaper to repair it than a monthly car payment, but with two little kids, would you trust it? The deciding factor for us was when we added up what the fuel costs were between both of us driving separate cars, my having a Diesel F350, and her Exploder, each getting ~16 MPG. The savings in fuel actually paid each months car payment, with a balance left over. Not everyone can say that, but for a few it can happen. Best part was trading in the Prius, I got back more than I paid for it! :D
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The cost in fuel (today) between a 16 mpg explorer and a 40 mpg hybrid at 500 miles per week is $35 or $150/month. If you're implying that you drive the hybrid instead of the F350 at other times then that would help the equation. So I will admit that it's possible in certain circumstances but only if you drive a lot of miles and get terrible fuel economy today.

    However - you can get the same financial results by buying a less expensive non hybrid vehicle with good fuel economy. It's cheaper so the monthly payment is less and that should make up for the difference in fuel costs.

    Buy a hybrid because you want a hybrid and leave it at that. Just don't try to rationalize it as a money saving proposition because 9.9 times out of 10 it isn't. At least not for many, many years.
  • timothyftimothyf Member Posts: 40
    Can you post the web site addresses?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,306
    start with the color and shape of a ford emblem + news
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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