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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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Comments

  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Saw your post. So your maybe one of 100 people to get the full rebate. As there are only 4 days left today to ORDER a Fulan; jump on the rebate now. When you order, to you pay for it immediately. How much did it urn you?

    "The date you take possession determines which tax year you're allowed to claim the credit. If you bought a FFH on 3/30/09 and took delivery within 2009 you can claim the full credit on your 2009 return. But if you take delivery in January 2010 you have to wait and claim the full credit on your 2010 return."
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    A comprabely equipped SE I4 is about $22K while the Hybrid is $29K.
    So if you "order" a Hybrid today, you pay an extra $3,400.
    That is still about four years for the Hybrid to pay back, if you order it today per-se?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That's true only if the SE is as fully and completely equipped as the Hybrid at that price.

    And it's not.

    And the Hybrid "hedges your bets" for future gas price increases.
    And the Hybrid means you are driving a much cleaner car (unless the SE can be ordered as a PZEV)

    There are far more than just economical reasons for buying a hybrid.

    But buying ANY new car is a losing proposition, financially.

    Why not buy a car which loses your money MUCH SLOWER and allows you fewer dollars spent at the gas pump? You go to the gas pump far more often than you make a car payment.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Your right, but I added the same options as much as I could.
    I agree there are more reasons, but if you that worried about the environment why not just buy a Honda Fit?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    dbostondriver says, "why not just buy a Honda Fit"

    Honda fit is far dirtier than a Honda Civic CNG. Maybe not have a car at all? Ride a bike? Buy an electric scooter?

    Everyone has their personalized car needs.

    People shopping for cars in EACH CLASS should look at the cleanest car in that class which meets their space and passenger needs.

    I owned an HCH and with two growing kids found it to be too small for us - so I upgraded into a TCH.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Yeah, exactly. If you are worried about the environment try public transportation, a scooter, a bike. That is the real sign of being green.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    OK, you caught me being good. :)

    I drive my kids 7 miles to their school, park my TCH at their school, take my bicycle off the rack on the back of my car, and ride it the last two miles to work.

    Saves me in the neighborhood of 900 miles a year on my car, and puts me 900 miles a year on the bike.

    It's a Win-Win !!!
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    That is awesome. Hey all the Hybrids look like great cars. If you can afford one and drive a lot, more power to anyone that makes the purchase.
    The new Insight EX is in my price range, and I think it is attractive. You never know, it 3 years I might buy one. :)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    For the 50th time - I didn't order a hybrid. But as long as you place the order before 4/1 Ford will confirm the order for you and schedule it to be built regardless of dealer allocations. And as long as you have the signed purchase agreement dated prior to 4/1 you can claim the full $3400 credit.

    You do NOT have to pay for it in full. You just have to get your name on the purchase agreement and eventually take delivery of the vehicle.

    I actually agree with you that buying a Fusion hybrid isn't the best way to save money on transportation - there are far cheaper alternatives. But I don't begrudge anyone who wants to buy one either.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Cool. So you have this weekend to agree to pay full price for a Fulan Hybrid in order to get the full credit. Do you see the lack of logic in that? Maybe Ford will have 12 Fulan Hybrids "ordered" this weekend, 7 that will actually be paid for.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    So lets say you save $400 a year, and the premium for the hybrid is $2,500, it will take you 6 years 3 months to make up the cost.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Say you eschew the hybrid and buy the SE.

    I would take you till infinity to save anything.

    So 6 years and 3 months is not long to wait.
  • And you seem stuck on this all being about dollars and cents and direct comparison of the FFH to the non-hybrid Fusion. People do not buy cars on best price alone and mostly never have. Otherwise, we would not have such a profusion of models and choices. Most people who buy a hybrid would not consider a plain ICE Fusion, so on that alone, your bare monetary comparison is beside the point.

    There are all sorts of reasons people buy hybrids now, but absolute dollar savings at purchase is hardly dominant. And if you are figuring correctly, you should be looking at overall cost of ownership. That includes gas, maintenance, depreciation (hugely different sometimes), insurance. Then there is owner satisfaction, the idiosyncratic worth of having the latest thing or something that is more green, even if more expensive. It's another choice and current hybrids represent a step toward real change, though it is early on. Of course the new tech will cost more, develop fast and be obsolete quickly as well. But some people have to buy the developing products along the way, or the development will never happen or never continue.

    Buy a car for reasons that make sense to you, but understand that your reasoning may not apply to someone else. And that, as Martha says, is a good thing.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I bought a 2007 Prius, drove it 10 months, put 24,000 miles on it, saved more in fuel costs each month to make the car payment with some left over, sold it in 2008 for more than I paid for it, got $1400 back on a $800 warranty plan, and haven't looked back. Basically drove it for free.

    Anyone who says it takes so much for so long to make up the difference, can stick it in their ear. If you buy it to replace something already getting 30 MPG, well, don't use that logic, but replace a gas guzzler or two with it, and reap the rewards.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    But Gregg, now you make it sound like a fad. What about the satisfaction of driving an H2, Ford Expedition, F-350? For the majority of the population it is about dollars and sense.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    ther are those of us that think that anyone who drives 24k per year, has made some bad decisions.
    set up your environment to drive less, and you are ahead of the game.
    at 24k per year you go through tires(ahem, petroleum based), brakes, and other consumables at a higher rate then someone who drives less.
    my wife wanted a FEH, but even she could not justify the price, based on her annual mileage.
    we pay annual property tax on vehicles. the higher purchase price, plus probably less depreciation, will add up too.
    if you are considering a FFH, it it pretty much the same.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Sorry this is just incorrect because you are only comparing one set of figures.

    The FFH and the TCH are both slotted between the I4 and V6 versions of their non-hybrid siblings - similarly equipped. In the case of the FFH vs V6 Fusion there is no premium at all. The FFH is a much less costly option....from Day 1.

    If the FFH ends up being like the TCH after a short while then the differential will only be about $1500 and depending on the price of gas it may only take a yr or two for the FFH to end up less costly than the ICE.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I'm certain that the vehicle can't maintain 40 mph for 10 min even with a fully charged battery unless the terrain is all downhill.

    All the following criteria must be in place for the vehicle to get maximum fuel economy results:
    ..the terrain must be flat
    ..there can be little or no head or cross winds
    ..the pavement must be dry
    ..there cannot be excessive weight in the vehicle ( driver only )
    ..the temperature must be moderate
    ..the battery must be fully charged
    ..the speed of the vehicle must be moderate and constant, such as under 37 mph.

    With all these requirements being present the driver might be able to achieve several minutes of gas-free driving. 10 min is far too long.

    Downhill is different and up hill or rolling terrain is WAY different.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Gee all of this is starting to make me think I should wait for the Chevy Volt!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This is called an SOTP or 'back of the envelope' analysis.

    There are many other factors that you've missed. Breakout the spreadsheet....
    ...consider the future curve of fuel prices ( Are fuel prices going to remain $1.98 for the next 7 years 'til 2016? Very unlikely. )
    ...consider the different prices between the I4, FFH and V6 Fusion
    ...consider resale values ( Depending on when you sell your vehicles you recover all or part of the hybrid 'premium'. )
    ...consider the Federal and local tax advantages.
    ...consider the lower maintenance costs.
    ...consider how many mile that you will drive each year then how long you keep your vehicles on average. 4 yrs? 8 yrs? 'til death?

    I've done this analysis for every 'full' hybrid on the road now. In most cases the hybrids cost less than the ICE-only vehicle. In some cases ( Matrix vs Prius ) they cost the same unless they are kept for 12 yrs of normal driving.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Volt will have the same limiting criteria as the FFH or Prius or HCH. The outside external factors affect every vehicle on the road. Just change the name from FFH to Volt and everything in the prior post still holds true.

    Your vehicle is the same right now today.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Gosh I can't believe that you could write this entire post and include so many inaccurate statements. Please do a minimum of research first.

    Your statement from HybridCars.com is worthless because you didn't give the link to the original source. Likely they were discussing NiCads which are harmful.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    This new Fulan hybrid has caused a run on these vehicles for at least 2 years. The dealers do not have to deal. Anyone who buys one is going to pay top dollar. The old supply/demand from Economics 101. Ford needs to increase production NOW because there are other hybrids coming down the pipe. If Ford marketing were thinking they would want to satisfy EVERY customer. Whether they be a new one or return. Grab this new market they have created.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Wrong, it can maintain 40 MPH for about 10 minutes, if there is enough capacity. I do it consistently in the TCH depending on traffic and lights. I can drive from 176 and 14 all the way to 31 if I can hit every light and not have others in my way. It takes about 10 minutes to get from one to the other. The ICE does kick in occasionally when I hit a slight grade in the road, but a quick release of the throttle gets it back to EV. If the Fusion has more capacity, and more EV power, then I can easily see it doing it.
  • WyattNicholsWyattNichols Member Posts: 55
    On the question about how long/far will the FFH go in EV mode, I'd read in a review a month back that it would go about 2 miles in EV mode. I don't know if that was the author's guess or info from Ford.

    Saw a 2010 Fusion I4 at the dealer on Thursday. Nice car! Don't know how different it is from the 2009 model.
  • For those attracted to the H2, there likely is a driving satisfaction that driving for example a mid-size car would not impart.

    For the majority of the population it is about dollars and sense I beg to differ. Trucks as commuter vehicles, SUVs selling like hotcakes until gas went to $4, the preference for CUvs over station wagons, the preference for little sedans with pimple trunks over hatchbacks are all examples of people buying what they want, not necessarily what is most sensible for their needs.

    But you missed my main point. Someone has to buy the new tech, even when it is still more costly than the old tech, in order to provde a market and spur further development (and eventual price reductions). You don't have to and your reasoning makes sense. However, for someone else the purchase is worth it, and that is a good thing.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    kdhspyder, Of course the 10 minutes @ 40 mph will go down if the car is loaded more. It might go down to 7 minutes or so, but not too severely. Electric only cruise time is not destroyed completely as you seem to indicate. WyattNichol's report on it going 2 miles is actually closer to what you would get.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Cool. Go on wikipedia and look up hybrid batteries, you will find the quote there.
    Not to sound like a Chevy basher but I am willing to bet that the Volt will be a monumental flop. With a starting price of $40,000, probable loss on each car sold throughout the product life, and the Insight/Prius being a extension cord away from being a competitor; the Volt just doesn't make sense.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    Some posting above have seemed to indicate there is a great deal of difference in how "clean" (less polluting) some new cars are compared to each other. The reality is that new cars are all very clean, the differences between them being very small. Negligible in fact. Pollution standards for all 2010 cars make them all about equally clean, even when compared to CNG Civics, for that matter. Don't worry about that. OBDII and the EPA have ensured they are plenty clean.

    That said, the best vehicle for the environment is going to be the one that uses the least amount of fuel, as that means less CO2 in the atmosphere. Also, remember the Ford Fusion Hybrid is great, but the normal Fusion 4 cyl will get 34 MPG hiway for 2010, so its a good tradeoff, too. Who really wants all those dead-weight hybrid batteries and electric motors? Actually, a little known secret out there now is that the next hybrid cars won't have electric motors or batteries at all. Hydraulic hybrid cars don't need any batteries or electrical stuff, bypassing that whole problem, and this tech would work great in a 2012 Ford Fusion Hybrid. We've got a hydraulic hybrid debuting at the next auto show, and it increases fuel economy by about 55% in city driving, and 15% in hiway driving. Thats how future tougher CAFE standards will be met! Sans batteries!
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    dbostondriver said: "Insight/Prius being a extension cord away from being a competitor"

    The reason the Prius/Insight and Fusion Hybrid cost less is largely due to the fact that they have far less batteries than a Volt will. The Volt will allow for up to about 40 miles on electric-only, while these other vehicles might get you 2 miles or so. Big difference. In the marketplace, I agree the Volt does seem overpriced though.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    Escape and Fusion Hybrids: 1.3 KWH
    Prius: 1.3 KWH
    Camry Hyb: 1.3 KWH (guess)

    2010 Honda Insight: 0.6 KWH -- one extreme! A "light" hybrid. Cheaper!
    Chevy Volt: 16 KWH -- another extreme, lots of range, very expensive.

    With those KWH numbers, I wouldn't expect the Fusion Hybrid to go more than 2 miles, as said. Note the Fusion Hybrid gets much greater fuel economy than the Camry 1.3 KWH vehicle as well. Does the Camry actually have less KWH than a Prius or Fusion Hyb car? I've assumed the battery pack is about the same in the Camry as in the Prius (1.3 KWH), but couldn't get confirmation of that. Anybody know how that compares to the Fusion Hybrid and Prius's 1.3 KWH?
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    Don't necessarily drink the koolaid that you need all those expensive batteries and electric motors to get 40 MPG:

    "If it were our money, the Fusion/Milan we want would be powered by the combination of a 1.6L EcoBoost four with dual-clutch transmission and start/stop that we saw in the Lincoln Concept C at this year's Detroit Auto Show. That powertrain would virtually match the 40-mpg fuel consumption potential of this hybrid at a considerably lower cost and no reduction in trunk space. Ford could probably offer that car in the low $20k range, virtually matching the VW Jetta TDI in price. But that car doesn't exist. Yet."

    My comment: They are right. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/10/review-2010-mercury-milan-hybrid/
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Good point, seems like a compromise would be a best bet.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    kdhspyder, Of course the 10 minutes 40 mph will go down if the car is loaded more. It might go down to 7 minutes or so, but not too severely. Electric only cruise time is not destroyed completely as you seem to indicate. WyattNichol's report on it going 2 miles is actually closer to what you would get.

    HUH? That's exactly what I was saying in reply to the prior post. IMO 10 min in EV mode is too long. 2-4 min at a constant speed is about max from my experience. But...I can drive for up to 10 min without the ICE engaging if I coast down from 60 mph to 15 mph from a highway-driving to residential-area-driving.

    But...as I noted above the outside conditions have to be perfect to accomplish this goal. Strong winds, bad traction, cold weather and extra weight will increase the demand on the battery thus shorten the EV period.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Pointless argument anyway. My experience with the TCH is that "pure" EV mode distance is meaningless. The TCH and I assume the FFH will give their best results when there is a mix of ICE engagement over the long haul allowing the battery to stay close to fully charged and assisting when needed for acceleration on to propel the car once in motion allowing the ICE to shut down or be assisted.

    My best "sustainable" milage with the TCH, meaning on a drive longer than what the car could have went in full EV mode anyway, was on mildly hilly rural roads in West Virginia. I once obtained 57 mpg experimenting on a 25 mile drive using the back roads and practicing operations that yield maximum benefits from a hybrid system. In normal driving I would still obtain 42mpg on that same route.

    Highway milage comparisons, such as the ads use, are useless unless one really does drive or commute with 90% of their driving on the interstate (and not the stop and go kinds like the DC beltway). The small cars advertising 33 mpg highway may do much better than that but my experience for my driving is I usually have an overall FE closer to the city milage. So comparing a Fusion with (I don't know the numbers) 24 city / 33 highway where I (and many others) would average no better than 26mpg to a FFH with something like 41 city / 40 highway and I could actually average 40 mpg requires me to be reasonable and compare the milage I expect to see for my type of driving. So for me instead of comparing 33 to 40 I would think it is more reasonable to compare 26 to 40 to see if it makes sense.

    It's fun to watch these posts as they are identical arguments and opinions to the TCH threads from May 2006. I would never own a 4cySE Fusion but am interested in the FFH. Some find that hard to believe but my initial capital in buying a car has little to do with comparing different grade levels of the same model.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Here the President is going to make some sort of announcement on Monday reference the auto industry. I wonder if he is going to extend the tax credits. I am on the fence about this. I could go into my dealer on Tuesday and go for the Milan HB trading in my 2007 MKZ. If the tax credit gets extended I might wait to see one and perhaps pay less than MRSP. Then on the other hand I could also wait one or two years to see what other neat things come out. This is like Vegas, gas now going over 2 bucks. I got this feeling it will be 3 this year and 4 next year. If this happens you will not be able to even see a HB on the lot!
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's all over the GM boards.

    Tomorrow morning the President will give GM 60 days to restructure or it goes into a government controlled bankruptcy.
    Tomorrow morning he will give Chrysler 30 days to be bought out by Fiat or it goes into Chp 11.
    The CEO of GM is being pressured to leave, he will quit tomorrow.
    Both GM and Chrysler will get some more money to stay afloat until the new deadlines. If they can't do it on their own then the loans get repaid and it's bankruptcy court.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    I am at the dealership about to drive and purchase a black one!
  • hayley2hayley2 Member Posts: 44
    I'm envious!!! When did this Black one arrive at your dealer? We ordered a Silver one back on Feb 23rd, and it was just assigned a Vin # this past week. The Dealer also has a Black one that is due in earlier, but they do not have an eta on it as yet. I'm thinking I'll need to wait another three to four weeks? Just a guess though. We're anxious to receive an eta on it. Keep us posted on how you liked the test drive.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Ok, got it, MSRP - $500 dealer because I was contacted over 30 days ago and then - 650 from Ford but not sure why! :)

    Black with every option there is. One just happened to show up from the dealer about a month ago who said they would have one soon. They did say more are on the way. The MKZ 2010 is the vechile that is late according to the salesman. A ton of beautiful MKS's sitting there. I was the first person to see it and drive the Milian HB. Ugh, there were not many customers around. :(

    I did my part! I take delivery tomorrow right after I sale my MKZ.

    Here I go, a Hybrid man!

    BTW: On parts of the test driving I was doing I got 51 mpg! :)

    Stay tune!
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Awesome, Enjoy and keep us posted! I have always been a Ford man, until gas got too high and parked my F350, and got a Hybrid, but now that Ford has a Hybrid, I may consider dumping the TCH for one.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Some "experience-based" words of caution to the new hybrid owner:

    Don't expect to be able to drive your new hybrid "just like any other car" and get 51 miles per gallon consistently. For example, on Sunday I got 99.9 MPG on my Toyota Camry Hybrid in the two mile drive from my gas station to my house. That does not mean I'm going to have a 99.9 MPG tank. My TCH has averaged 34.8 MPG in the 42,000+ miles I have on it.

    If your FFH can get consistent 35-37 MPG tank averages, you should be pleased.

    Don't go in with super-high expectations. Be realistic.

    If you are a lead-foot, you can either keep being a lead-foot and get 30 MPG in your new hybrid, or you can decide to change your ways and learn the sweet spots in how to drive your new hybrid and get rewarded with consistent 35-37 MPG tanks.

    Good luck !!!
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Thanks for the advice. I get it because on the test drive I had trouble getting it into EV mode. After awhile I learned to be smoother with my foot. It will take some time getting use to. It is not as quiet as my MKZ and I am spoiled. I do like the toys it come with such as the phone sync where my text messages come on the screen, calls, etc. When all is said and done after my 2007 trade I am going to pay about 12-13k for this car. If after a year or two I do not like it than I should not have any problem selling it. I decided that any minor event in the world will drive prices up and I am tried of giving 'big oil' all of my money! So here I go the pioneer and you know how you can tell a pioneer! The one with the arrows in his back!
    Airborne!
  • hayley2hayley2 Member Posts: 44
    bigt - Congrats on your new Hybrid. Sounds like the dealer gave you $500 off MSRP which is great. The $660 Ford is allowing is off the Rapid Spec Package according to my dealer. All I was able to get the dealer to throw in was the All Weather Floor Mats that list for $75.00.
    Keep us all informed how you adjust to the Hybrid and if your driving habits change as a result of the EV mode.

    We're anxiously awaiting our Milan, but probably late April or early May I'm thinking.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Don't forget the $3400 tax credit - if you qualify.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Expires today.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    As long as you have a signed purchase agreement dated today or earlier you're ok.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Did a dealer tell you that? Or is that just rumor?

    I'm going to try to find out on the IRS website.........

    Found it:

    The date of purchase determines the amount of the credit available for a vehicle, i.e. whether a vehicle is eligible for the full credit or whether a portion of the credit is phased-out. The placed in service date determines the taxable year in which the credit may be claimed.

    It only comes into play at the end of a calendar year. For example, if you have a purchase document dated 12-31-2009, but don't take delivery until 1-15-2010, then you cannot take the credit for the 2009 tax year - you must wait until the 2010 tax year, because THAT'S the year the car was put IN SERVICE.

    OK all clear.
  • hayley2hayley2 Member Posts: 44
    I have the signed purchase agreement as well as a copy of the Dealer Order Receipt with my name on it. So I will claim the $3400 Tax Credit on my 2009 Tax Return next year.
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