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At the time, I was wondering just how long they would get away with this and the ride lasted longer than I thought it would.
The people who are getting hurt now are the wholesalers. They used to buy these "clunkers" form the big stores who didn't want them.
A lot of thse guys did a good job of buing nice, older cars, maybe do whatever was required to make them look and run good and they would sell them on thier lots to people who needed cheap wheels.
We have taken in some cars that will be a shame to crush. They still look and run just fine.
It is too bad that you're seeing some decent cars crushed, but they'll salvage parts out of them, and, as you say, this is entirely voluntary---and really who am I to point an accusing finger at someone and say "How COULD you dare to crush a 1996 Ford Taurus?" :P
There's your problem. I have a '99 Quest that I bought new, promptly keyed on purpose, and have gone as long as 11,500 miles between oil changes. It has 134,000 miles on it and I regret changing the original plugs, belts, and wiring at 124k (did nothing to help the gas mileage).
If we don't clunk it, we may still drive it another 50,000 miles. It choked last year on a knock sensor code, but has yet to leave us stranded (original timing belt on it too).
But if we can find something we like to dump it on, it's history, even if it's been reliable almost to the point of legendary status. :shades:
Well, if this helps, don't look at it as losing $4500 by keeping your minivan. Instead you're saving $10K, $15K, or whatever worth of payments, by holding onto it, rather than trading it for something newer.
If you're in the market for a new car, and no longer need the minivan, then by all means go for it. But spending $XX,XXX on a new car just to get $4500 just doesn't make that much sense, financially.
I'm in sort of the same pickle with my '85 Silverado. I guess if I wanted to unload it, I might luck out and get $1500-2000 for it. Now it's in anything but pristine condition, but it's still pretty reliable, and makes itself useful as a work truck. Right now I'm using it to move dirt around in the yard. I'd hate to think that the truck survived 24 years, only to meet an untimely demise for a gov't voucher! If I really wanted a new truck, it might be a different story.
For me, though I will really miss having a minivan that I can beat the heck out of, the van needs a tie rod, the air conditioning doesn't work, the passengers window motor no longer works, one of my kids managed to break the dashboard (perhaps that air bag won't work?), front tires are worn, rear brakes may be low, all cup holders are destroyed. Most of van is OE so with 194K on it - you know its a matter of time before something goes... the frugal minded types will know.
Try that with a european make and see what happens!
A broken timing belt would probably total the car
A couple of years ago I got a rebate for a new water heater. Next April 15, it's the $1500 credit for a new heat pump I put in a couple of months ago. $4,500 for clunking out the van would make a nice trifecta.
Mexico is getting in the act too. (Purchasing.com)
"The Mexican "car park program" is less ambitious as it will provide vouchers up to $1,100 to buyers who turn in cars at least 10 years old to recycling centers so they can buy new cars costing up to $11,800. However, it has no scheduled end date.
The Mexican program also is designed to expand home-market demand for motor vehicles, whose sales are on pace to drop by 35-40% this year and aren't expected to rebound to record-high 2008 levels of 2.1 million units until 2014, says Secretary Mateos. "
Of course it's "cheaper" to keep fixing an old car than buying a new one. You'd be hard pressed to spend $25,000 on the worst used car--but that's apples and oranges. With a new car, you get years of warranty, a decided uptick on safety, comfort and gas mileage, and the prestige of a new car. It's not all foolishness after all.
I think there are a lot of people like me out there. We've been on the fence, weighing the options of keep vs buy and this bill will move some of us into the "buy" column.
If they had included used cars (say 2-3 years old) as options for people to buy, it would have had a better affect on purchases. It still would have helped the manufacturer's as well as the credit/banks. I'm sure many 2-3 year old cars are either coming off of a lease or have been repossessed. Or, someone will trade it in for a new one. Either way, revenue is generated which means taxes are collected which means local, state and federal governments make money.
Now I just have to decide what car I want to get. :shades:
That's where I'm at. I purchased my '94 Mazda B4000 new in Sept '93, so it is nearing 16 years and 170k miles. I've had a couple major repairs (blown head gasket, replaced A/C), but otherwise it's been a pretty reliable vehicle. My original plan had been to hang onto it for a couple more years 'til my house is paid off, but the combination of Cash for Clunkers and the 2009 Sales Tax deduction has given me the incentive to accelerate my purchase plan. I'm looking at the Ford Escape for my new vehicle. I briefly considered the Escape Hybrid, to take advantage of the hybrid tax deduction that still applies for Ford vehicles, but can't justify the significant price difference between the hybrid and non-hybrid Escape.
Hopefully in another 16 years, they'll have made greater strides in fuel efficiency or alternative fuels.
All of the 4 cyl's have used a chain and not a belt for some time now. The V-6's still use a belt. If people simply change it at 100,000 miles, they'll never have a problem
The six cylinder and 8 cylinder models use chains.
Chains aren't immune to wear even with proper oil changes. I had to replace the timing chain on my Pontiac with the 3800 series I V6 when it had around 130,000 miles on it. The tensioner for the chain broke and was making all kinds of racket inside the cover.
I have a 96 civic, interference engine with timing belt every 90K. This was my third Honda and they all had them. Spending $400 every 90K for timing belt, belts, water pump and flush an fill does not make all that much difference. I have always done this work and have never had a problem. All my Honda's were over 200K miles with very little other work. Basic wear items, tires, breaks, filters etc and a couple of exhausts. Mid west living with salt is a killer.
I just bought a new car and kept my civic. It is worth more to me then any one will give me for it. I will let my children drive it as the extra car. I will drive it in the winter and leave the new one in the garage to save it from the salt. No cash for clunker joy for me.
If they gave that $3,500 for a ten year old car no matter what it was I'd be thinking maybe though still the most economical thing for me would be to keep the current Accord rolling.
That's the second time someone has mentioned a sales tax deduction in the last day or two. What's that deal?
Read or listen about it here -> http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=204519,00.html
Test drove a Prius today; pretty nice ride. The ground clearance is supposedly the same as my minivan (5.5") and the minivan has worse attack angles. Doesn't look like much room under there for our forest service road camping though. The van has a few scars under it too.
It's starting to bug me that we have the ideal clunker to trade but can't decide on what to trade for.
I purchase cars new and drive them till there is nothing left and honda is perfect for that mode. I use to by used but buying new and keeping for 10+ years I feel I get my monies worth.
The reason I suggest to people with high mileage cars that they consider the C4C program is that odds of a major breakdown at 150,000++ are pretty good, and in one SNAP! or CLUNK! your $4500 car becomes a $250 car.
I would like to borrow your mechanic's crystal ball, though, as my Subaru just hit 150,000. :P
Begin reading at post #1 and then return when you've been brought up to speed. Thank you in advance.
I've explained the reasons for the program in multiple posts herein. It was written by the auto industry to give a temporary boost to auto sales this year. Everything else is secondary.
If the program applies to you but you choose not to participate then, no problem.
If the program doesn't apply to you then, oh well.
In either case the program will achieve its goals, both primary and secondary, with or without your or my participation.
I see lots of clunkers where I live and the majority of the people driving them are not economically able to purchase and make payments on a similar capacity vehicle even with the C4C credit. Sure give the max for these type vehicles but give the lesser amount to anyone with a car/truck over 10 years old as this would have given the industry a much bigger boost. That puts many more people in the pool and will be a larger help to the economy, environment and safety. They can take the money from TARP since it is getting paid back or use the TALP money since they are not spending it yet anyway but I digress.
In a way, that's good. Unlike most government programs, at least this one seems to have one direct easy to hit target.
From all the ad hype, I figured Hyundai was expecting new buyers to clunk their vehicles and drive off the same day.
The salesperson and the order person both said they thought the clunker money would be all gone by the end of August. Just about every customer they've had come through the door in the last couple of weeks are clunker ones (although the Genesis coupe is sweet looking and is driving a bit of traffic in).
Also if they were going to open up the program to just old cars they would have to have appropriated a lot more money. I don't think they could have gotten the bill passed if the price tag was over a billion.
As to the Voyager what year is it? Most of the V6 model Voyagers I see on fueleconomy.gov were rated 18 combined so yes it would qualify. You would just have to trade it in on a category 1 truck that got 2 mpg or more or a passenger car that got 4 mpg or more.
We took in a Disco under the clunker program. I think it was a 1997 or a 1998 and it looked as nice as can be. Under 100,000 miles, black, the nicer model as clean as can be. the people who traded it in were horrified it was going to be crushed but the highest bid we could get was less than the 4500.00.
Yeah, it only gets 12 MPG or whatever and these can be trouble prone but still, what a waste!
The enviro-cloaking of this legislation is to make it palatable to the greenie movement...to throw them a bone. However the real secondary purpose of this is being driven by the intelligence and military services....get the country to use less fuel. This is the unspoken but official policy of the US Govt as recommended by both the intelligence agencies and the Pentagon. IOW you will use less fuel in the future.
As to your second paragraph...it was the auto industry that wrote this bill...it was written the way that they wanted it written...not the way you wanted it written.
I would like to borrow your mechanic's crystal ball, though, as my Subaru just hit 150,000.
Yeah, I'd like a little peek into that crystal ball too, as my 2000 Intrepid is around the 148,000 mile mark. 2007 was my worst year to date, with around $2000 total thrown into it, although a lot of that was maintenance, too. I think I threw around $1000 into it in 2008. And so far this year, I'm into it around $1500...although to be fair, $1300 of that was when the a/c compressor seized up. My fault, basically. I knew it was getting low on freon, but tried to hold out until the spring. I could've gotten it charged back up for about $75, but waiting cost me a LOT more than that. :sick:
One reason that I want to hold onto my '85 Silverado though, is that I don't think there's really anything on it expensive enough to break, that would make it worthwhile to get a new vehicle. It has the old style THM350C 3-speed transmission, which was pretty sturdy (although I had one rebuilt in an '82 Cutlass, with just a wussy 231). It would cost under $1000 to rebuilt most likely. If the engine blew, well, it's a Chevy smallblock, and that's like the cheapest engine in the world to replace. Heck, if it blew I'd probably get an upgrade...don't people usually replace a 305 with a 350, rather than just another 305? Now if I really wanted to make the truck look nice, like when it was new, it would cost a fortune. But for a workhorse/beater/backup vehicle, the thing will probably go on forever. I'd say the biggest threat to my Silverado would be if I got into an accident and it got totaled. And even there, it would be a fairly serious accident. That truck would take a hit that would easily total out most modern vehicles once they have a few years on them. And I have a feeling that a hit that would total that truck would also put me in the hospital...at which point I'd have bigger things to worry about than the truck!
As far as the C4C program, no matter it is just my rant. If the auto companies, American I presume, had the bill written so be it. I do not think it will help all that much but hey who knows. We already gave them tens of billions so what is one more, more or less. Gov Motors and Chrysler are not on my list to purchase from, ever.
That voyager was my last "American" company auto. I am sticking with Honda from here on out as I have had much better luck with longevity and low maintenance. YES, Honda has its issues too but I have had much better luck with them. I will stick with what I know for now.
As far as a crystal ball, know one knows for sure but I would put my 96 civic up against the intrepid. Over the last 14 years I have a total in the car of less then $2K worth of non maintenance repairs. One cat, two cat back exhausts due to rust, rear struts and trailing arm bushings. I do not count tires, brakes, filters etc. as I would have had to do these on any car. It now has 206K and does not use any oil between changes every 3-4K miles. Trans is clean and I have done complete fluid replacements every 50K along with doing the brake fluid at the same time. Yes it may just quit but right now I would have to say it will go another 100K. Oh, almost forgot. Had to change out the radio as the volume control became intermittent but that fits in the $2K too.
Where do you sell Honda's?
Everything on them is expensive and depending on where you live there are few independents to work on them. Incredibly strong bodies, all aluminum for the most part so no rust, and frames, fully boxed double wall construction which explains the massive weight and poor gas mileage, but the ancillary components are fragile and those engines eat head gaskets. Since you said the nicer model Craig I assume it was a HSE which means it most likely had rear air suspension. That is another component that if nearly guaranteed to fail unless it is well cared for and even proper maintenance only delays the eventual failure.
Mary if you think your Neon had a problem with head gaskets it is nothing compared to a Series I disco. As much as I like them and as nice as they are to pound through the rough stuff they are very trouble prone and expensive to repair.
The series II Discos are light years ahead of the old Series I models and not too much more money. The series IIs have a longer wheelbase so they handle better too with more room in the back.
It really depends what you have. My truck, for instance, is maybe $400-$600 in repairs every 6-9 months, but it's routine stuff that dies due to age.(water pump, master cylinder, radiator, etc). I of course replace the entire system more often that not when something dies.(for instance one brake rotor failed - replaced all four at once)
The most expensive thing on my vehicle would be the transmission. Being that it's a manual, a replacement is a whopping $1200 *new* It's common to find rebuilt ones ready to drop in for $600-$800. The original transmission lasted an amazing 325K miles and 20 years as well. I don't think I'll need a new one any time soon.
Now, sure, spending $1000 a year on an old truck to keep it running seems a bit silly at first, but that's three months of payments on a new vehicle by comparison.
It's always cheaper to keep an old car running than a newer one. The only reasons you should ever get another vehicle is if it dies in an accident, you need a different vehicle, or the old one rusts or is unsafe and slow(ie - totally wears out).
I don't like $1000 repair sessions every year or so. But I like monthly payments, insane registration, and crazy high insurance premiums even less.
not necessarily. for example if my sedona ends up needing thousands of dollars in repairs over the next few years (a distinct possibility), and i lose $3000+ trade equity by not using CARS now, it will certainly effectively cost way more for me to keep it than it would cost to own a civic or corolla over the same period.
also for someone who's income depends on having a reliable vehicle, downtime for repairs on an older vehicle could end up being more costly than the repairs themselves.
A salesperson called this morning and the guess at their dealership is that the clunker money will run out in 72 hours. The salesperson sold two clunker deals this weekend.
know when the money is going to run out?
That being said, if it looks like the program is a raging hit then I see it being extended immediately for another 90 days..then again ..then again, If the public jumps all over the program it's awfully hard for the politico's of both parties to resist the will of the public.