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Comments
For a company with a not-so-great quality reputation, could still go out of existence in 1-2 years, and a not so great vehicle to start with, WTHeck are they thinking?!
Or go price a Dodge Challenger vs. a Mustang or Camaro. Chrysler's are WAY-overpriced.
Yup. The idea was that these jobs would otherwise be lost permanently--and that Fiat might be able to save the company. No one else was volunteering.
I'm not sure if it will turn out well, but I'm sure that allowing liquidation would have been far worse in the short term, without improving the long-term prognosis.
In the long run, Ford and Hyundai-Kia will pick up a major boost in market share, Fiat will be a new niche player, and the others will nibble around the edges. (I once thought VW was in a position to gain substantially, but given the nonsense that VW management has been spewing I've revised my position. They want to bring the Phaeton back to the US market???)
Ownership isn't the same as control - just look at Ford. The family controls Ford but their ownership is something around 5%. link
I don't know how the Fiat deal is set up, but to quote the link - "control is control."
Really. I never heard of a bidding process, or was asked? I or many others would have been willing to pay $100 MORE than Fiat for the same deal! I would try and manage Chrysler if the U.S. government is willing to give me 20% and pay the bills! Anyone else here who would have paid $100 and given it a try?
I don't think that getting Cerberus off the hook was a consideration, much less one of the government's goals.
I disagree that accepting a 20% stake in Fiat for no money is riskless for Chrysler, since they'll incur significant expenses. Maybe not investment capital, but there will be expenses associated with keeping Chrysler going, in whatever form Fiat chooses to do it. It remains to be seen whether the opportunities will outweigh these expenses.
1) Fiat is considered the major decision-maker with Chrysler when they only own 20% of Chrysler?
They are the only shareholders with any experience running a car company. It was either them or draw straws. I would have voted for drawing straws.
2) Fiat didn't put any cash into Chrysler, and doesn't intend to, so how did they get 20% ownership?
This one is harder to explain. As a couple of people who are very close to the automotive business told me, Chrysler had to partner with someone to survive. It has to do with their lack of small car platform (development costs) and global reach. The year prior to the bankruptcy, Chrysler literally traveled around the world trying to partner with anyone. Nissan looked like they were the answer until the recession hit and they backed out (smart move). Fiat stepped forward with the best offer. But they do have a lot at stake. their CEO is pretty aggressive and sees the US market as key to the growth of Fiat. Failure again in the US will set Fiat back a couple of decades.
It sounds to me like the U.S. government gave Chrysler to Fiat for nothing, as Fiat was unwilling to otherwise take on trying to turn Chrysler around. The U.S. government did this so that they could justify getting Cerberus off the hook, keeping Chrysler from immeidately liquidating and saving UAW jobs temporarily? So Fiat ended up with a "No-Lose" situation; which they plan on discontinuing most Chrysler models, but retaining the Chrysler name, and selling Mexican-made Fiats through the Chrysler distributor ship?
Best I can understand is the government was trying to save manufacturing jobs which is vital in the midwest. Also the pension for the UAW workers would have been the responsibility of the government (US). Don't forget it was just 3 months ago that we lost over half million jobs. With that kind of hemorrhaging, it hard for the government to sit back and do nothing.
Personally, I have no interest in buying a Chrysler or a Fiat. Too many other car manufacturers who make decent cars without the worry of if they will be around in the future. My guess is this partnership will last 3 years or less.
Do you know that's the arrangement? or are you just assuming that? Isn't Chrysler paying for its losses using the large lump sum from the government, that they were given a few months ago? What I think Fiat is saying is that once Chrysler uses up its lup-sum "loan" money, they are not going to foot the bill for what Chrysler loses each month. I think Fiat has sent that message that the government is going to have to step in again if Chrysler blows thru it's first lump-sum? Why would Fiat pickup Chrysler's losses when all it has to do is say they're done with it, and the U.S. government would again say it's not an option to shut it down, and shovel more $ to keep Chrysler open?
Plans are a dime a dozen and can be jettisoned at any time.
plus a reputation to preserve. These are tied to Chrysler making it.
So Daimler's reputation was badly damaged when they dumped Chrysler? Answer - no. If anything people would consider that Daimler would be more competent than Fiat. Since Daimler already dumped Chrysler, I bet a poll would suspect the less competent Fiat will do the same.
If you look at the resources of the Fiat auto group they do not have the $ to support Chrysler to the tune of billions$/year. They will simply call our bluff that there won't be any more U.S. taxpayer money to Chrysler. I would if I ran Fiat.
I guess Fiat was thinking that answering no to that question is the right answer. But is that their final ansaa?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Yes it is most probable that both would sink, since Chrysler is losing and will lose billions per year. But that is only if Fiat were to start paying those losses. As the head of Fiat has been quoted several times - they haven't put any $ into Chrysler, and don't intend to. The U.S. taxpayer will either have to continue to pay the bills and hope Fiat is susccessful, or when Chrysler goes thru the $ they were given, let Chrysler go Ch7.
I think the Fiat - U.S. government deal is this: Fiat will take over the planning and management of Chrysler, and provide smaller vehicles to be rebadged as Chryslers (this is what Fiat gives); in return the U.S. government picks up the bills to keep Chrysler workers, plants, and suppliers active, appeasing the UAW, and Fiat gets in return a network of U.S. dealers for its cars which it doesn't have. That's what I think the truth is to this arrangement.
All I see on the TV ads is 0% 72-month financing on Ram 1500s. Nothing interesting there, certainly nothing to spark optimism for Chrysler's future.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The MultiAir technology basically controls air and combustion in engines cylinder by cylinder, without using the conventional throttle system. The MultiAir system first made its debut in the new Alfa Romeo MiTo hatchback in 3 different output levels including a 105-hp, 135-hp and 170-hp.
Insiders say that Fiat’s MultiAir technology could be applied to the 2.0L and 2.4L 4-cylinder engines that are produced by Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance (GEMA) by 2011. The engine will be used in the Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Caliber, Dodge Avenger, Jeep Compass and the Patriot.
The Pentastar V6 engine family could also get the technology in the second half of 2012. It will be fitted with the 3.6L V6 and will debut in the 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
- By: Stephen Calogera
Source: AutoWeek
Besides the Patriot, that group of vehicles is worthless. Very few people are buying them today. Getting a few mpg more is not going to make anyone run out and buy these over competitor's vehicles, all which will be improved themselves!
Chrysler is a corpse with nothing more than the U.S. government keeping the life-support pushing blood around.
The bigger picture is this--can Chry-at (or is it Fiatsler) replace them with something that is even marginally competitive before the money runs out?
Well the Patriot has some off-road capability, as a real Jeep should, and which the Caliber and Compass don't have. Combine this with it's relatively low price and it being an excellent mpg Jeep (still has a positive brand image), and you have a decent vehicle. People who buy Jeeps usually don't care if they have cheap plastics and ill-fitting body panels anyway. Rivets showing is fine.
With Fiat-based replacements still at least two years away, the Chrysler Group has delayed plans to kill its slow-selling Chrysler Sebring and Dodge Avenger, sources say.
The two sedans were all but left for dead by previous owner Cerberus Capital Management. Now insiders say Chrysler intends to freshen the cars and keep them on the market until late 2012.
.....The Sebring, which was introduced in 2006, and the Avenger, which arrived in 2007, have failed to take off in the market.
Through August, Sebring and Avenger sales totaled 40,452--compared with 238,612 for the Toyota Camry, the mid-sized segment leader.
Cerberus had planned to replace them with all-new models. But a team formed in early 2008 to evaluate the mid-sized segment was disbanded after a year.
CEO Sergio Marchionne has acknowledged that Chrysler's product cupboard was essentially bare when Fiat S.p.A. management took control June 10 after Chrysler left U.S. Bankruptcy Court.
"We were surprised by how little had been done in the past 24 months," Marchionne said at the Frankfurt auto show. "It will be a slow progress in the beginning."
According to a company document, Chrysler also plans a midcycle face-lift for the Chrysler Town & Country minivan at the end of 2010 and a new interior for the Dodge Journey crossover a year later.
The Detroit Free Press reported last week that Marchionne wants to face-lift several other models by mid-2011. Those include the Dodge Grand Caravan minivan and Caliber small car, the Jeep Compass and Patriot crossovers and the Chrysler PT Cruiser.
John Wolkonwicz, an analyst for IHS Global Insight, says Chrysler badly needs fresh product to generate cash flow.
Global Insight's forecasts don't call for Fiat-based products to arrive in the Chrysler lineup until 2012 or 2013.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090928/CARNEWS/909289996
All I can say is, that's going to have to be one hell of a "freshening". What crap. And this confirms that it will be several years before Fiat products are being sold at Chrysler dealers. How on earth they will survive that long is very much in question, IMO.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Chrysler brand will handle Fiat 500 in U.S.
The Chrysler brand will handle U.S. distribution of the Fiat 500 minicar, said Peter Fong, Chrysler brand CEO and head of sales for all Chrysler Group brands.
Fong said the 500 most likely will have a dedicated corner in Chrysler-brand showrooms. The limited volume planned for the 500 prevents creation of a dedicated retail network.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090928/CARNEWS/909289995
So the 300 will be the largest car they sell, and the 500 will be the smallest. How delightfully illogical. :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now that C4C is over, does anyone hear info. on how much $ Chrysler is losing each day or month? How much $ from the bailouts is left? I'm sure there must be some disgruntled people at Chrysler leaking out info. like this?
Boy, that sounds familiar. Much like the "We had no idea" from Cerberus.
So if the government wants to come to me and ask me if I want a corporation for free to see if I can turn it around, I'd probably say "YES", whether I even knew what the corporation did. If I didn't like the corporation and it's products turned-out to have no chance, I walk away from it, whenever.
Maybe Marchionne and Fiat would be slightly embarassed, but the dumping of Chrysler by the more renowned Daimler, didn't hurt the prestige and competence of the Daimler group.
Slapping a new face on the Avenger and Sebring certainly isn't going to produce any new sales.
Neither is a unibody, JGC-based 2011 Durango.
Marchionne shouldn't have been surprised - this company has been on the edge of total collapse for years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1. They are spinning off the only (vaguely) profitable portions from Chrysler/Dodge - ie: their trucks.
2. Starting to sell the FIAT 500 in the Chrysler/Dodge dealerships as a FIAT.
The next step will be to starve Chrysler/Dodge of product, which shouldn't be hard, as all they really have is cr@p in the first place.
Which will then lead the dealerships to switch over to FIAT/Alfa Romeo products. After all, they will have gotten accustomed to selling FIATs with the 500. Same with the dealer mechanics.
As for the factories, that looks to be FIAT's way of cheaply moving their production out of high-cost Europe and into a lower-cost America... all on the Fed's dime.
Which is a pretty slick deal for FIAT.
I don't think I'd dump the Jeeps if I were Fiat.
In a statement, Chrysler also said it is reorganizing the Dodge brand, creating separate groups for Dodge cars and trucks."
Two More Chrysler Big Shots Out in Fiat-Led Management, Brand Reorg (AutoObserver)
"It will now consist of the Dodge Ram truck brand and the Dodge car brand each with its own CEO. Well known designer Ralph Gilles takes over as the head of the Dodge car brand while Chrysler marketing executive Fred Diaz Jr. will head up the Dodge truck brand. The former head of Dodge Mike Accavitti resigned."
Chrysler Announces New Ram Brand (Straightline)
The AP says:
"Separating Dodge into trucks and cars will make it easier to sell the Ram brand, said Aaron Bragman, auto industry analyst for the consulting firm IHS Global Insight. The Ram and Jeep brands are the only parts of Chrysler that currently have value, he said.
"It's a better way for them to eventually divest the brand," he said. "If they need to liquidate, it will be easier to do, but that doesn't instill confidence in many people."
Ranieri, however, said splitting the brands follows Fiat's successful management structure in which Marchionne separated Fiat commercial vehicles from passenger cars." link
But the world today has many more foreign competiiors. I think you are presuming that Chrysler "Needs" to exist, and that there is some great market out there to go after. With Chrysler not offering any greater luxury than Hyundai or VW at better prices - I ask - why do we need Chrysler; or why does Fiat want Chrysler to compete in such a crowded market segment?
Chrysler had better offer a) better products b) higher quality c) more value - content vs. price, d) get significantly better mpg or performance
or e) be drop-dead gorgeous.
All I see is a broke company with below-average product in a crowded marketplace. No one would buy Chrysler, and Fiat only accepted it because it was FREE, and the U.S. government wanted to keep it running for a while longer - a welfare case.
If you're inclined to root for the underdog, Marchione is your man,
The U.S. taxpayer is certainly going to take a bath keeping Chrysler around until Fiat gets a chance to sell enough cars, to stop the bleeding.
This is really going to be ugly.
So they are making monthly improvements.
The chart doesn't look very good.
Full story at (AutoObserver).
2011 Fiat 500 Will Be Sold Scion-Style
• A new vehicle for North America in the C segment, which encompasses cars such as the Ford Focus. The car would be based on a Fiat platform.
• A hatchback smaller than the C vehicle, imported from a Fiat factory.
• A new sedan on a Fiat platform to replace the Avenger sedan.
....The Dodge brand will pursue a new lifestyle mission, de-emphasizing its traditional pitch to performance-minded males.
This while the Viper takes a break for the 2011 model year. Meanwhile, is there a small European diesel on the horizon?...
But the Chrysler Group's larger challenge in the coming years is to meet the federal fuel economy standard of 35.5 mpg for the 2016 model year. That's where Fiat engines and powertrains come in.
Chrysler will use a Fiat diesel engine along with a 1.4-liter inline four-cylinder. The inline-four will appear first in the U.S. version of the Fiat 500 in the fourth quarter of 2010.
Chrysler will align its engineering organization to Fiat Group, making the most of common platforms, systems and components between the two companies, said Scott Kunselman, senior vice president of Chrysler Group engineering.
Shared platforms
By 2014, Chrysler will share three platforms with Fiat, increasing Chrysler's average models per platform from about two in 2010 to three in 2014. During that period, average volume per platform will increase to 305,000 units from 125,000. In the process, four platforms will be consolidated, Kunselman said.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091104/ANA02/911049973/1250- &AssignSessionID=273363776571698
Meanwhile, on the powertrain front...
In 2010, Chrysler's legacy engines--those in the stable before Fiat took control--will account for 84 percent of Chrysler's engine mix. By 2014, the legacy engines will be down to 12 percent.
In 2014, Fiat-derived engines will account for 42 percent of Chrysler's mix. The Pentastar V6, developed before Fiat came on the scene, will account for 38 percent.
.....Chrysler also said Wednesday that it will add Fiat-designed dual-clutch transmissions in its North American products.
The company also will launch its new Pentastar V6 engine on the 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee in the second quarter next year, said Paolo Ferrero, Chrysler's powertrain chief.
The Pentastar will replace all Chrysler's V6 engines, from 2.7 liters to 4.0 liters in displacement.
The first dual-clutch transmission will appear on a new D-segment vehicle at the end of 2010. Also about that time, Chrysler will launch stop-start technology on the Jeep Wrangler diesel, an existing vehicle in Europe.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091105/CARNEWS/911059997
And they are planning on hybrid Rams too! Whew, it is a busy time at Fiatsler. Almost makes you believe this company could make it as an Italian, pseudo-American automaker. Did I read that the the 500 will be available in the U.S. in fall 2010? That's quicker than I expected. I am eager to give one of those a try, provided they bring over the Abarth version.
Oh, I almost forgot Jeep! :-P
Jeep's small SUVs will use Fiat-supplied platforms starting in 2013, Jeep brand CEO Mike Manley said on Wednesday.
Jeep will eliminate the Patriot and Compass crossovers after 2012 and replace them with a single C-segment vehicle whose platform will originate with Fiat Group. Jeep also will introduce a B-segment small SUV in 2013 with a Fiat platform.
And starting in 2013, the Liberty crossover will have a Fiat platform.
The Jeep Wrangler also will undergo a “major modification” in 2011, Manley said.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091105/CARNEWS/911059998
Jeep is going to be a very different animal when Fiat gets done with it. I wonder what the "major modification" of the Wrangler will look like, given that one of Fiat's primary goals is to get Chrysler CAFE-compliant in the next five years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
iluv you really need to talk to these people in Tuscon about a free NEV for your trips to work and around Wilcox. Leave the Mitsu in the garage for longer trips. Get in on the government handouts.
http://www.freeelectriccar.com/default.asp
Imagine getting 40 mpg on the highway in a Wrangler! That sure would change the beast. And with auto stop-start for city driving, the thing would do pretty well around town too.
As for me, I will take a diesel-powered 500 for my commute car, and an Abarth for fun weekend driving! ;-)
iluv: Yeah, they will ruin the Abarth for me if they offer it only with their new automated manual, but that's definitely a possibility.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Chrysler has a long uphill battle to be viable for me to consider. Though Jeep is the bright star in the company.
There's several older dudes around Willcox that drive these little golf cart electrical vehicles around town. I don't think they need to be licensed, but I have only just looked at the guy's cart who takes his to visit his wife at the nursing home that's attached to the hospital I work at.
I will look in to it further. It might be a potential answer to going "green" earlier than waiting for my silver blue 2011 BYD e6. The e6 that is going to get 250 miles on one charge. I'll believe that when I see it, though.
nippon...yep, they only make the 500 in 2-door hatch style, right? No 4-door versions of the 500? Is there really room for 4-doors? I would want a 4-door version but I don't think such a monster exists. But you're right, the CVT found in my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS will work for me in that car, but not in a 500 Abarth or any Fiat 500 model.
I must have a stick shift for me to buy one. I really like it's tiny curvy body style with those awesome bug-eyed headlights. Reminds me of a bugeye Sprite with it's headlights. Love 'em! No, I would have to say that this would be the first Chrysler I'd ever be interested in. Except, of course, the 1973 Plymouth Duster we bought from my Dad in '85! Pretty decent American car, that Duster. Slant 6 automatic and reliable from day one for Mom and Dad and us. The only problem with it when we sold it for $200 in 1992 was it's suspension parts were badly worn and the car would "float" while driving it on I-5! Not a good thing. But I digress.
I would hope that Fiatsler would price this pup reasonably. If they do they'll literally sell thousands upon tens of thousands of these in the States.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The Pentastar will replace all Chrysler's V6 engines, from 2.7 liters to 4.0 liters in displacement.
I think this is good news, as Chrysler has had too many V-6 engines, IMO, for quite some time now. Right now, they have the 2.7 DOHC, 3.5/4.0 SOHC, 3.3/3.8 pushrod, and 3.7 SOHC.
That's just too many. And the 2.7 DOHC is an extremely expensive engine to build. Its market could probably be served just as well by a reduced-displacement version of the 3.5/4.0. In fact, Chrysler used to have just that, a 3.2 version offered from 1998-01. Every vehicle that offers the 2.7 currently also offers the 3.5, so making it fit shouldn't be a problem.
The 3.3/3.8 are minivan engines, although the 3.8 also finds its way into the Jeep Wrangler. They're durable, inexpensive, cheap engines, but they're also a bit on the crude side. And the 3.7 is probably only around because it's a V-8 with two cylinders chopped off, so it works well in truck applications, as most everything else just bolts right up, like it would on the V-8.
Really, no one drives fast in this podunk cowboy town. Those electric carts would be like the cat's meow here. It's like we're all on atmosphericly-inspired quaaludes of some sort. When I turn on my Foghat and Guess Who in my Lancer, with it's 650-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo, it helps bring some of the Seattle angst to flavor the little sleepy town. Some of the kids in town are making up their own rock bands, but I wonder sometimes if any other adults like to rock at all around here. Unfortunately the cowboy culture flavors everyone to go towards country music here. Oh well.
I "plug in" and blast out the 70's rock on a regular basis, though. I'd have to wire in some kind of nice stereo system in my golf cart or it just wouldn't be the same. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Well remember, the 500 may be sold from Chrysler dealers, but it will have a Fiat badge, not a Chrysler badge. So you won't really be buying a Chrysler. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick