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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Now Elon is trying too hard. Perhaps winning that last battle pumped up his ego (which was already swollen).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Time for some more publicly funded backing?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If they claim to be profitable then let them free wheel, I say.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    I hadn't noticed the absurdity of claiming an EV advantage over that LOOONG time we spend at the gas station.

    He's burning credibility with stunts like that, no need to, comes across as desperate.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    A claimed 15 minutes to use the gas station, in fact. Can't recall ever spending so long at one, even if I used the loo or got something to eat. That time billed at $100/hr is just batty. Add to it the subsidies, and he can be hard to like.

    If Musk had true faith, why isn't it backed 100% with his own gigantic mountain of gold? It will end yet again with the public acceptance of risk for private gain, that's capitalism.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can't meander up to a charging station like you can a gas station. Some goofy logic there.

    I can remember a lot of people saying diesel is hard to find. Not even, compared to a charging station.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think it's a mistake to pitch the Tesla as a road trip car. Who stops for 3-4 hours in the middle of a trip? No one I know.

    It's for local use only, for practical purposes.

    When you try to stretch something beyond its ideal purpose, the results can't be good.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591
    Agreed. There's nothing wrong with just acknowledging the limitations. Bleeding edge is always a compromise, but it doesn't stop people from buying new tech.

    I will give Tesla credit for trying to put some kind of charging infrastructure in place. Its not perfect, but its a start. The expense must be astronomical.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Troubled Fisker Automotive reportedly fired almost all of its remaining staff this morning as the boutique maker of the premium Fisker Karma plug-in hybrid sedan struggles with rapidly mounting debt.

    An unnamed source who attended Friday's termination meeting told the Reuters news service that about 160 employees are affected and that Fisker will retain about 53 senior managers and executives, primarily to pursue buyers for the company's assets."

    Downward Spiral Continues for Troubled Fisker Automotive
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    More borrowed dollars down the toilet. Worst part is it was never built here as promised. A scam from the get go. They should take the money they owe US out of Fisker's hide. He bailed and with how much of our money? Bad enough we let our own con men rip US off. This guy is a foreigner.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    He's a stylist not an engineer. No wonder his plan never worked.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    He is a con artist. He got our tax dollars to build a factory in Finland. Not much different than GE and a bunch of other greedy corporate thieves.

    Fisker laid off 160 of its roughly 210 employees Friday morning from its Anaheim, Calif., location, according to Automotive News.

    Employees told the publication they were given no severance pay besides compensation for unused vacation days.

    According to the class action suit filed by Outten & Golden, in a California district court, Fisker failed to notify the employees 60 days in advance, violating the federal U.S. Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification Act and a similar state WARN Act.


    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/06/report-obama-backed-fisker-lays-offs-- workers-faces-suit-by-solyndra-related/
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited April 2013
    You get the justice you pay for. Corporations are people too. Faux would agree.

    Shame too, as IMO, the Fisker was a lot nicer looking than any other EV. Shame about the self-immolation tendencies.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That reads like an op/ed, no surprise.

    At least they link to this real story without all the politics inserted:

    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130406/OEM/130409907/fisker- -faces-worker-suit-alleging-failure-to-give-advance-notice-of#axzz2Po39aHnz
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That reads like an op/ed, no surprise.

    What was said the AN did not say? It is a case of politics. That is how the money is handed out to all these crooks and thieves. Paybacks for campaign contributions. As a tax payer I am tired of wasting Millions per job created. Most turn out very short term, just long enough to get someone elected. Here from CBS:

    Each New Obama "Green" Job Will Cost Taxpayers $135,295

    According to the White House, $2.3 billion in tax breaks have been awarded to manufacturers that are going to create "green jobs."

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28043618/each-new-obama-green-job-will-co- st-taxpayers-135295/

    How much have we handed out for the very small handful of EV/hybrids so far? Last I read the Volt cost US about $250K each.

    Nearly two years after the introduction of the path-breaking plug-in hybrid, GM is still losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds, according to estimates provided to Reuters by industry analysts and manufacturing experts.

    We cannot afford to refuel our Aircraft carriers, but we can buy a bunch of un-needed cars. Worst part is they are only 40% USA made. Why not Buy American cars to help our economy, and not the Presidents green ego.

    Sep 14, 2012 – The Pentagon put in an order for 1500 plug-in vehicles, among them the Chevy Volt. Guess who is all up in arms over this decision?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What was said the AN did not say?

    They didn't mention any politicians at all. That's why I like AN, very no-nonsense, just the facts.

    No layer of opinions added. You rely too much on Fox - do you know they actually used The Onion as a source? That's satire for those not aware. Oops.

    I do not believe the Volt costs any where near $250,000. I question the sanity of whoever made that claim.

    Remember it uses an old school iron block, cheap as it comes to manufacture. It is a shortened Cruze platform. No turbo either. So basically it's a $16,000 car plus the battery and EV motor.

    How you go from there to $250,000 probably has more to do with your political agenda than any sense at all.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Some of the Onion stories go so far out that a few of them are actually are plausible. And some stories become reality. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    Link to follow up:

    For a news outlet to retain credibility, standard industry procedure dictates that reporters and editors not only correct mistakes, but acknowledge them as well. Fox Nation had done neither at time of this writing.

    It’s not a good move for Fox, which was savagely and very publicly mocked by other major online media for passing off satire as if it were actual news.

    In the wake of such humiliation, the site’s editors can expect to face even greater scrutiny from the online community, especially after vanishing their embarrassment without so much as an explanation or retraction.


    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/26/fox-nation-readers-confuse-onion-article-r- - eal-news/
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    I'll bet the Wall Street Journal didn't savagely mock Fox.

    Oh yeah, same owners. :shades:

    Getting further off topic but this was good and the NCAA final is tonight - 'Hershberger' Award. (WSJ). Reminds me of the prank where some guy wanted to put pants on pets and it made all the news outlets.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They didn't mention any politicians at all. That's why I like AN, very no-nonsense, just the facts.

    You only want the facts you want to read. The truth is Solyndra was personally handed those loans by the Obama administration over the objections by those in the DOE that felt it was too risky. So many lives were disrupted by these various scams and subsequent layoffs.

    I don't watch Fox as I don't watch anything now but Diners, Drive-in and Dives. If Fox posts news I find it as factual as most of the crap on the internet. Being PC is not always truthful or factual.

    I would say from the first mention of $250K per Volt it was based on the $billions the US tax payers gave to GM for R&D. You left out the expensive controls and electric motors most likely built in China. My biggest complaint with the Volt is the FACT that it is just a bunch of foreign parts assembled here and subsidized with my tax dollars.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You only want the facts you want to read

    I just want a news source with no agenda.

    It's not fair or accurate to link R&D costs to the few EVs that have been produced so far. That keeps diminishing over time, in fact I'm sure it's diminished since the $250,000 figure was first used. The article says up to $49k over cost, so that's already down to $89k at most (how I interpret "up to").

    Reminds me of the junk science that compared the Hummer to the Prius. It was all to easy to discredit the rather ridiculous assumptions they made.

    Re-do that math, 3 million+ hybrids later.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I don't watch anything now but Diners, Drive-in and Dives.

    Wait, you fell off the wagon? Now that's news. :shades:

    NASCAR continues to green up:

    "An ambitious NASCAR environmental-awareness program is now in the works in the run-up to Earth Day."

    NASCAR Ramps Up Green Program
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "The number of trees to be planted will, NASCAR says, essentially eliminate the sport's carbon footprint by absorbing a volume of carbon emissions approximately equal to those produced by racecars in NASCAR's three national touring series."

    WHAT A STUNNING LOAD OF BS! Sorry for the caps, but I am shouting at the screen right now. As if the racecar emissions amounted to ANYTHING. How about the 100,000 fans driving to see the race???
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited April 2013
    Some people are just bitter about a couple of Novembers, and the public not believing those who could "save us" :sick:

    Here's how I see it - the competitors have received federal subsidies to develop their hybrids and similar cars. We can play the same game, or impose compensating penalties on their cars.

    I'd rather sink money into cars than ungrateful parasitic nations.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We can't be saved. People here think cheap fuel is a constitutional right.

    Every administration I can remember has talked about an energy policy yet we're as dependent as ever on foreign oil. OPEC has way too much power.

    I get what Gary is saying, the road to heck is paved with good intentions. Laws have to be carefully written and with no loopholes, else we get the parasites you mention.

    It's hard not to be protectionist, though. Not easy striking that balance.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "yet we're as dependent as ever on foreign oil. OPEC has way too much power. "

    Not true, there's been a huge increase in N. American oil production, and a corresponding drop in oil imports.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    China will more than pick up whatever slack there is, though. :sick:

    Glad to hear there's some progress.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    The recent low in domestic crude production was about 5 million a day, now up to about 7.5 million barrels a day, while imports peaked at a bit over 10 million a day, now dropping under 8 million a day. So we've gone from about 2:1 to 1:1.

    But you're right, world demand keeps prices up. Folks hoping for a major drop in crude prices will be disappointed. I would only expect that with the next major world (eastern hemisphere in particular) recession.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Could not find recent charts, but here's one that is a couple of years old:

    http://www.mcoscillator.com/data/charts/weekly/oil-imports.gif

    Looks like imported oil did peak and start to drop, and from what you're saying those lines have intersected again, right?

    Would be nice to have a 3rd data point - oil prices, charted as well.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It's not fair or accurate to link R&D costs to the few EVs that have been produced so far.

    And why not? That is how businesses have to run. You don't think Apple includes R&D in the cost of their products. Subsidies only muddy the water. They DO count against the cost. Just comes out of the tax payers pocket.

    I am not convinced the CNW study was flawed. After all the only people refuting it had a political agenda. Something you do not like. My guess is a 2004 Hummer will be around a lot longer than a 2004 Prius. We have not even reached the 10 year mark with the 2nd Gen Prius. If the Hummer was still running 30 years and 300k miles and the Prius is ready for the smasher at 10 years it is obvious which is the most polluting. Even Toyota tapped their Prius at close to double the pollution in manufacture of a comparable gas only vehicle. Only time will tell.

    I would rather see a comparison of a gas hybrid against a comparable diesel running on biodiesel produced with algae or waste oil. Yet very little is spent on that most promising of green alternatives. The right palms have not been greased in our government.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And why not?

    Because these studies put all the R&D costs on the early production cars (i.e. very near term).

    Did you know CNW came out with an update and the H2 was no longer rated ahead of the Prius? That's because they had to re-distribute R&D costs over a longer production run.

    That was many years ago. Imagine if they did that again with the 3 million Prius already sold.

    An iPhone is only new for a year, so it's fair to spread R&D costs for that model until the new model comes out.

    But HSD has been on the Prius since 1998, and is now still in use on 3 different models. They've sold over 3 million.

    Sure, they can say the Volt costs double by adding R&D costs, but now the Caddy ELR is here, so do you cut those in half? At a minimum they have to spread R&D costs for ALL projected output for the Volt and ELR for the entire production run of both models.

    Only time will tell

    For the Prius, even CNW admits the Hummer doesn't use less energy cradle to grave. They had an agenda and served their purpose. Do you really think any of those news outlets did a follow-up study to say "sorry we were wrong about the Prius?" Of course not.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Here's all the info you could want from the EIA.

    Click on the items you want to plot, such as 'Domestic oil production' and 'Imports -> Crude oil' to see that these two curves are about to cross.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I would rather see a comparison of a gas hybrid against a comparable diesel running on biodiesel produced with algae or waste oil. Yet very little is spent on that most promising of green alternatives. The right palms have not been greased in our government.

    This is a different topic so I'll offer a separate response.

    Higher taxes on diesel are unfair, and that hurts even food prices for the poor. They should at least balance the taxes on diesel vs. gas. Around me diesel prices are ridivulous. Bio-diesel is even more ridiculous.

    I don't buy in to the diesel versus hybrid thing because you can have BOTH. How does 260mpg sound? XL1:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/01/vw-hints-hyper-efficient-260-mpg-xl1-could-- come-to-us/

    Show me a diesel without a hybrid electric assist that can do that.

    More down to earth, the CrossBlue concept sure looked interesting, and we may see the XL1 powertrain in the VW Up!

    Back to fuels....

    Biodiesel should get the same subsidies that Ethanol gets. Level the playing field. Just like with gas vs. diesel fuel taxes.

    WVO is not taxed at all but will always be very limited quantity. Some idiots in our government are going after them for taxes, I say they have too much time on their hands. :sick:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    these two curves are about to cross

    Maybe the government isn't doing so bad after all. ;)
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    "Maybe the government isn't doing so bad after all."

    Good one. The only positive impact of the government on domestic oil production has been some initial partnership funding of the horizontal fracturing technology...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Do you really think any of those news outlets did a follow-up study to say "sorry we were wrong about the Prius?" Of course not.

    The Prius is hardly a good example of all hybrids. Look at what a mess Honda has made of the genre. Hardly great examples of hybrid technology. And HSD was a stolen patent Toyota has to pay for on each unit. Not sure how well Ford is selling their versions of the Prius HSD. I know when my BIL was looking at the Escape hybrid it was nearly $10k more than the one he bought. He is getting 30 MPG on the highway so very happy with that. And you would think with high gas prices the Prius would be a good seller. They are down 22% over last year. Are hybrids going to lose market share to high mileage gas cars like the Corolla. The hot selling Lexus CT is down more than 50% in sales.

    My perspective on the CNW is longevity vs high mileage. I wonder if a new LS would last as long as our LS400 that is now 24 years old and still running very well. I cannot believe a Prius has the chance of lasting as many years as a Hummer. To me it is throw away technology like the iPhone.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Biodiesel should get the same subsidies that Ethanol gets. Level the playing field. Just like with gas vs. diesel fuel taxes.

    WVO is not taxed at all but will always be very limited quantity. Some idiots in our government are going after them for taxes, I say they have too much time on their hands.


    I totally agree on both counts. Those picking up WVO and processing it for fuel are doing the environment a BIG favor, by keeping that horrible stuff out of the sewer and dump sites as well as a cleaner burning fuel. I would be surprised if biodiesel gets 1% of the subsidies given to the Ethanol industry. Most unbiased studies claim ethanol is a net loss fuel. Both financially and environmentally.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In terms of volume, the Prius is *the* hybrid.

    Ford has had decent success, too. Others are only playing catch up.

    And HSD was a stolen patent Toyota has to pay for on each unit

    Not really, though Ford and Toyota licensed each others' technology.

    Oil is cheap - look at the numbers above. Remember when a barrel was $140? It's >40% cheaper now.

    Hummer won't last because they were a fad car, and the fad is dead. What used to be a lawn ornament is now an embarrassment. Some one was saying a lot of them are bought up and shipped overseas.

    I doubt many of them will be miled up, and the 2nd shipment overseas doesn't exactly bode well for their footprint.

    Cars.com has nearly 9,000 used Prius for sale with over 100k miles and CNW said they wouldn't last that long.

    The guy from CNW admits on his own web site that he failed high school math 3 times. Imagine the dumbest guy in your math class - that's him. LOL
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The court found in favor of the US patent holder against Toyota on their HSD system in the Prius and several other hybrids including those licensed to Ford.

    The Hybrid Inventor Who Sued Toyota – And Won
    By Jalopnik
    07.22.10
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hummer won't last because they were a fad car, and the fad is dead.

    The Hummer fad is dead because GM decided to dump it in the BK. Along with Pontiac. Has little to do with how well built it is. My wife sold her ranch to a family that has a H3. He totally trashed his MDX on the 2.7 mile fire road to the ranch. He has been driving the H3 every day across that horrible road since he bought it new in 2007. That to me is a testimonial to the H3 being a decent SUV. I don't like them and would not consider one myself. I have NO doubt it would outlast a Prius.

    Did it ever come out who paid for the CNW extensive study?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Hummer was dying before that, so was Pontiac. H2 and H3 were just rebodied conventional SUVs for those with bad taste, size issues, too much money laying around, or combinations of all 3. H2 especially represented everything wrong with America, in vehicle form. Good riddance.

    MDX is a glorified minivan, not made for off road use.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wasn't familiar with that case, and I'm a Terp (BS '90 and MS '93). Wifey as well.

    Go MD! My kids might go there, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure a Hummer is more durable than a people moving crossover, but what I doubt is that they will ever accumulate 300,000 miles, as was assumed (average).

    There isn't enough oil on the planet for every Hummer made to go that far. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That guy filed suit when the 2nd gen Prius came out with HSD in the 2004 model. There was a big debate here at Edmund's. Then it was forgotten. Originally the court awarded $25 per vehicle. Toyota appealed and the anti went up with the more expensive models like RXH and Highlander Hybrid. From that article it looks like Toyota settled for an undisclosed amount. Rumor has it at $98 per vehicle. Let's see 3 million hybrids at $98 each. He should be able to eat well for some time.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Probably went out and bought a Cadillac Escalade Hybrid. :-)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm sure a Hummer is more durable than a people moving crossover, but what I doubt is that they will ever accumulate 300,000 miles, as was assumed (average).

    I am sure the average Prius is more likely to reach the 109K miles than the average Hummer reaching 300k miles. Not many vehicles are kept running that many miles.

    I am still curious who would go to those lengths for a study that was obviously aimed at denigrating the Prius? Maybe GM as they were struggling at the time and were getting beat up by Toyota.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's see 3 million hybrids at $98 each

    Yeah but patent lawyers get $97 of it, so he probably ended up with $3M. ;)

    For a very short while I worked in the patent office at NIH, nice folks but pretty cut-throat business.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good question, you wonder who funds a lot of these "studies".

    Companies like AMCI are hired and supposedly do independent analysis and comparisons with competitors, but you wonder, do they only report results that are favorable? For sure the results are sealed, since the only folks to ever comment on them are the manufacturers that hired them in the first place.

    Don't bite the hand that feeds.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To elaborate a bit more, I imagine it could go like this:

    77% prefer Car B to Car A in handling
    66% prefer B over A in acceleration and response
    81% prefer B over A in braking performance
    ...
    70% prefer A over B in styling.

    Final Verdict: 7 out of 10 people prefer the styling of car A more than the leading competitor (they don't even mention the name, nor all the bad results).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the best bang for the buck in green, fun driving will be the VW Golf GTD. Capable of 50 MPG and handle with all but the best sports cars.

    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1211_2014_volkswagen_gtd/
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