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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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Comments

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Oh I agree, it is too soon to know what happened, I was just pointing out that it wasn't in Gary's imagination that 1/4 inch plate was mentioned in regards to the incident, I have no idea if it is really there, or what really happened except it appears metallic debris was hit and somehow started a fire ( which could also happen in an internal combustion car as well). No comment on the safety of the car, seems like it did its job, and so far this is an isolated incident, if it were to happen every time an accident occurred then there would be cause for concern, but certainly not now.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    We're on the same page.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If we read the report on the accident from the fire department, it's a bit more complicated than that. They had a lot of trouble putting out the fire, as they experienced what is called "thermal runaway" with lithium-ion batteries.

    The FD had to actually cut into the car while it was on fire, in order to suppress the burning batteries, using special chemicals. Water was of no use. Had an occupant been trapped in there, putting out the fire would have taken a long, long, time.

    There is in fact an investigation going on, to be completed in 2014, to determine the dangers of lithium-ion batteries as a potentially serious fire hazard due to overcharging, faulty manufacture or collision.

    Apparently the nickel-metal hydride batteries used in most hybrid electric cars (non plug-in) are not as susceptible to fire and explosion.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Apparently the nickel-metal hydride batteries used in most hybrid electric cars (non plug-in) are not as susceptible to fire and explosion."

    That may be a major reason why Toyota stays with nickel based batteries (as far as I know) for the Prius. They also happen to be cheaper, but that's probably of lesser importance, considering the financial damage, and damage to the brand, that fires could cause.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    They do use lithium ion batteries in the Prius line up elsewhere in the world, just not in North America.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Interesting! Do you know why there, but not here?
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Not sure, but I think cost and potential liability. They can charge more for the car elsewhere, and don't have a legal system that is as litigious in those places.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was going to bring that up, too.

    We get NiMH, which are pretty harmless, you could bury them with soil to make a raised bed garden and grow fruit right on top of them.

    The Prius V in the US uses a bigger battery pack and loses the 3rd row option. In Europe it offers a 3rd row, allowed by the smaller Li-ion pack.

    Here we have more lawyers than sense, I imagine that's Toyota's thinking.

    If you think about it, though, a lead-acid battery is far more harmful than either. You have a li-ion battery in your phone, in your pocket.

    You shouldn't get near a lead-acid battery without gloves and eye protection.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "To demonstrate how far hydrogen cars have come since the early 2000s, Toyota gave test drives of a small, prototype sedan in Japan this past week. A similar vehicle with a different exterior will debut at next month’s Tokyo Motor Show. The car, which showed quick acceleration and sharp handling, will arrive in the U.S., Japan and Europe as early as next year as a 2015 model.

    Toyota’s 2015 model fuel cell car will have more than 500 kilometers (311 miles) of range per fueling, according to the company, a level matched only by Tesla’s $70,000 Model S among alternative-powered vehicles. Pricing hasn’t been announced, although U.S. Toyota executives have previously said it may cost about $50,000."

    Toyota shows hydrogen prototype in race toward fuel cells (Detroit News)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Looks like that future scenario for around the year 2020--of a mixed-bag of alternative fuel vehicles including ICEs, diesels, hybrids, EVs and hydrogen cars--might be the real deal.

    I don't think gasoline cars are going away anytime soon, though, and I see a long hard road for EVs.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited October 2013
    I would put the Hydrogen cars in the same group as CNG & EV. Very limited market for at least another decade. Both hydrogen and CNG are fossil fueled. And most of the energy used in an EV is produced by fossil fuel. Which to me still means we should be using our fossil fuel in the most efficient manner that fits our transportation needs.

    When you factor in the concerns on gas fracking, IS Natural Gas used to produce CNG, electricity or Hydrogen better overall than refining oil into gas or diesel?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hydrogen is hard to extract but it's abundant. It may carry the edge over the others because of the sustainability angle. Down the road, we could use solar power to extract it, even.

    That's looking (very) long term, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hydrogen production is mostly from Natural Gas. Most is used in refining oil and fertilizer production. I don't think producing hydrogen from water electrolysis is very efficient use of electricity.

    My question would be how many miles can you drive a vehicle powered with hydrogen vs battery per KWH used. Of course we know that as expensive as Li-ion batteries are to produce, Hydrogen cells are far more expensive. Both used very expensive elements neither of which we produce in the USA.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In 2013, yes. I'm talking long term, though. They'll figure out ways to squeeze hydrogen out of other sources sooner or later.

    Fuel tanks do have the advantage of taking whatever shape fits under the car, while hydrogen tanks need to take a certain form.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    "Let's go to the scorecard: 3 million Priuses sold world-wide, with half of that in the U.S.

    You could have built a bridge to Tokyo with all the wood-head experts who predicted Prius battery failures would cost consumers thousands. Battery failure rates in Prius turned out to be practically nil.

    The Prius became politicized along the way, a dog-whistle phrase that meant liberal, lefty. But are we talking artsy-fartsy? Because there is no more rational car on Earth than the Prius. The Prius is an utter rebuke to emotionalisms such as performance and style. Doesn't that rather speak to an owner with practical cast of mind?

    ...Toyota long ago exhausted its manufacturers' allotment. That hasn't seemed to slow down sales.

    The enduring mystery of the Prius is how a car with quite modest driving satisfactions—in terms of acceleration, handling, cornering, ride compliance—can be such a winning automotive experience. These cars are, still, strangely fun to drive."

    Toyota's Prius: Performance Is All That Matters (Wall St. Journal)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    it's no mystery really. The Prius represents an excellent value for the money, in MPG, utility and reliability. There is nothing dollar for dollar that can match it much less beat it, in all 3.

    It's the same "mystery" as to why BMW is so successful. Nobody does it better.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Folks love to bash the Prius, and the owners in particular. Some oddballs, most just want to save gas.

    I get to make the most of my hybrid's performance every day. Nothing I could do with, say, a Mustang GT.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Chevy Volt sales down 32%, Ford C-Max down 21%.

    "We are seeing sluggish sales of some plug-in hybrids such as the Ford C-Max — down 21 percent — and Chevy Volt — down 32 percent. The most likely culprit responsible for the decline is gas prices and enticing traditional gas-powered vehicles that achieve 40 mpg plus. With fuel prices expected to fall further, the auto industry will be watching carefully to see if the pattern continues,” said Edmunds.com senior analyst Michelle Krebs.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131101/AUTO01/311010108/1361/Volt-sales-dow- n-32--in-October
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    "Fun" is subjective.

    My friend with a C won't be buying another C. It's fine in town, a pain on the highway. Oh, and the ICE has started intermittently crapping out. The price paid for mpgs I guess.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Buyers recognize that plug ins and pure EVs aren't anywhere near economic, unlike hybrids. But 'trust' the government to push them down our throats through rebates. That money would be much better spent getting many more hybrids on the road.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2013
    Last trip to LA I rode in a C or two. The taxi drivers liked them fine but the consensus was that they weren't good highway runners. The wind would blow them around too much. Made good cabs though.

    My target is the 2015 revised flavor, assuming Fukushima Daiichi doesn't shut down the whole country before then.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Fine for speeds under 45, probably. And you'll get amazing mileage in the city, but at the trade of a weird layout, materials of sketchy quality, and a numb driving experience. Fine for 90% of the population, of course.

    Revised flavor - wintergreen or imitation vanilla? ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Fun" is subjective but primal fear when you hit a curve too fast on poofy tires and mattress-like suspension is generally a universal emotion. :)

    I may not know what a "fun car is, but I do know what an "un-fun" one is.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Third Tesla Model S Fire In Past 5 Weeks Breaks Out After Accident (Updated – Collision With Tow Hitch)

    Having recently gone through two “fire incidents” after an accident in the past 5 weeks, a third fire Model S has caught fire under potentially a similar condition.

    And while the first two fires happened after the Tesla plug-in sedan had taken some serious damage, this Model S looks to have suffered less damage before the occurrence – although we would stress patience in jumping to any conclusions before an official investigation report has been released as this is BREAKING NEWS - that we will update as new information becomes available.

    UPDATE (Nov 7th 10:39 EST): The Tesla Model S in question reportedly struck a tow hitch on the road, and ”hit the undercarriage of the vehicle causing an electrical fire.”


    http://insideevs.com/third-tesla-model-s-fire-in-past-5-weeks-breaks-out-after-a- ccident/
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My two cents? There is a design defect here. 3 fires with only 19,000 cars on the road is a lot. Might be time for a recall and more armor. Must be flimsy underneath---do you think a regular car could have its floorpan penetrated by running over a tow hitch?

    The only time I ever saw a modern car gets its floor punched, was by a driveshaft breaking--that's not just impact, that's horsepower driving it into the floor.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Don't tell that to the fanboys - they'll counter with someone's 2001 A8 catching fire last year.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2013
    Yeah, okay, but one has to compare the # of fires with the # of that model on the road.

    I'm also sure that insurance companies are going to take note of all this. If your Tesla ends up costing you 2X as much for insurance as a comparable Lexus, don't you think that pretty much negates the rationale for buying the Tesla?

    I know one might counter with "well, that doesn't stop Ferrari or Porsche owners"--but they are a different breed of buyer entirely. They are in for the total visceral experience---not for listening to the car go EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE all day long.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I thought the Tesla would be whisper quiet out on the highway at 75 MPH. Less then 62 db at speed. Where you can hear the quiet passages in the 1812 Overture. Has anyone here ridden in one yet?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2013
    Nope but I've listened to them. They are pretty quiet (the newer ones). I had heard that the earlier S was a bit noisy. I'd love to drive one!

    I heard that Jay Leno bought a CD of engine sounds to play whenever he drives his Tesla.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    It really only should be compared with current model year luxobarges, not old ones or Ferraris or Camrys. Many seem unwilling to do so regarding the fires.

    I've thought about these events and if they could have an insurance impact, too. Maybe the gubbamint will issue an insurance subsidy so people buying a 90K toy can get another gift?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The vehicle is able to accelerate from 0 to 62 mph in 2.8 seconds and offers an average standard fuel consumption of between 94 mpg and 85 mpg. The 918 Spyder also allows a combustion engine to be combined with an electric motor-based drive to generate new functions that further optimise the dynamic performance.

    Quiet and elegant: ‘E-Power’

    When the vehicle is started up, ‘E-Power’ mode is selected as the default operating mode, provided that the battery is sufficiently charged. Depending on load, the 918 Spyder can cover between 10 and 20 miles purely on electric power. Even in pure electric mode, the 918 Spyder accelerates from 0 – 62 mph in under seven seconds and can reach speeds of up to 93 mph. In this mode, the combustion engine is used only when needed. If the battery charging condition drops below a set minimum level, the vehicle automatically switches to hybrid mode.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlBUB9RqY_I

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But alas, the price of it all....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the 918 is one of those vehicles if you have to ask the price you can't afford it. Leno should be able to swing one. My guess is under $300k.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm thinkin' $400K and up.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    If ONLY it was $400k:
    How about a MILLION BUCKS!!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited November 2013
    YIKES, I guess that means the Jetta Hybrid at the Post office is probably not running the same hybrid system ;-)

    Leno can afford it.

    PS
    I would buy the 918 over a Veyron. Better looking.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    image
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited November 2013
    I agree with you about the Prius. Regarding BMW, however, I question whether it still deserves to call itself "The Ultimate Driving Machine" because, from what I've read, most of its cars have gone soft. Steering was one area where BMW set the standard, but some testers have complained that the steering on the newer models feels numb, or at least not nearly as communicative and satisfying as older models. You don't read that about Mazda or Ford Fiesta, Focus or Fusion, for example. I realize I may be comparing apples and oranges, since the Mazdas and Fords I cited are FWD.

    Some testers have rated the Cadillac ATS above the 3-Series, and the new CTS above the 5-Series, in terms of driving experience.

    Maybe the 2015 Mustang will surpass the BMW 3 and 4-Series in driving dynamics. With the next 1-Series going to FWD we'll see how it compares with the mass market Mazdas and Fords.

    Business wise, BMW is doing great, repeatedly setting new sales records, which is at odds with their trending toward average, in terms of product. Maybe most luxury vehicle buyers assign more importance to the brand's prestige value than to the driving experience. Or, maybe long-standing perceptions are lagging behind reality.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I read one wag from an automobile blog complaining that "BMW has changed the sex of their cars".

    Kinda funny, kinda true.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited November 2013
    Becoming more ordinary, less positively differentiated, is usually a recipe for diminishing the brand and losing market share, but the opposite is happening with BMW. It'll be interesting to see whether it's a case of perception lagging reality, or whether the BMW marketing folks and strategists know something that the car guys are missing. Maybe getting into more and more segments is the primary reason for BMW's increasing success in the marketplace, and that the mag wags overrate attributes that are unessential to most BMW customers.

    Maybe BMW has become "The Ultimate Marketing Machine." Hmm, wasn't that what GM was from Alfred Sloan's time through the 1970s?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's a perk with an EV and your own outlet.

    "A decade ago, 33 gas stations were listed as in business in Manhattan south of 96th Street, according to city records. Today, 11 remain, with two of those scheduled to close next year and one on the market.

    Drivers say the reduced competition has led to occasional long lines to fill up." (There's about 220,000 cars registered in Manhattan).

    Filling Up Is Hard to Do (WSJ)

    But that's just another benefit that people miss - "While much has been written about the existing federal consumer tax credits of as much as $7,500, subsidized installation of recharging stations, and numerous state and local financial incentives, along with favored access to high-occupancy vehicle lanes and city parking, consumers are in the dark."

    Consumers Blind to Electric Vehicles' Cost Savings, Study Reveals
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why would anyone keep a car in Manhattan? Parking fees can be as much as many people pay rent. My only friend from Manhattan leaves his car two hours away in CT at a friends home. Takes the train when he wants to use it. EV still will cost a fortune to park. Let alone plug in.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Just what rich Manhattanites need - subsidies for toys.

    I don't disagree with subsidizing EVs to an extent, but IMO their should be an MSRP and/or income limit.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What percentage of the US population pay $7500 or more in Federal Income tax? You cannot spread it out over several years. My guess is less than 20% could take full advantage of the tax credit. Purely pork for the wealthy.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    In the best EV, the Tesla, every 10 miles you drive takes you one minute of waiting to "fill"; over time, as the batteries degrade, that'll become 2 minutes for every 10 miles you drive.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lead foot uses 165 miles of electricity to go 100 miles on I-35

    A couple of weeks ago, I strapped into the seat of a $100,000 green roller coaster streaking for the future. It was not a bad way to spend a workday.

    Actually, videographer Brian Elledge and I had climbed into a Tesla Model S, a low, long, slinky electric sedan striving to forever change the perception of alternative-fuel cars.

    We wanted to test the high-tech Tesla’s range claims, always a concern with electric cars, and see whether the company’s new supercharger stations worked as advertised.

    Tesla says it can get more range from its array of lithium-ion batteries beneath the floor of the S than any other electric vehicle — an impressive 265 miles with the optional battery pack.

    Moreover, in a costly effort to expand the ways in which electric cars can be used, Tesla is building a network of supercharging stations throughout the U.S. to allow its electric cars to make long road trips.

    Three of the $150,000 stations are already in place in Texas — in Waco, San Marcos and Columbus.

    Tesla owners can get a full, free recharge in an hour at one of the stations or 150 miles of additional range in about 30 minutes. The stations are open 24 hours but only to Tesla owners.

    We pulled out of downtown Dallas with 231 miles of range showing on the high-tech instrument panel, bound for the nearest supercharger station at the Collin Street Bakery in Waco, 100 or so miles away.

    My heavy foot cut deeply into our reserve of power, as did the time we spent shooting video: drive-bys in which Brian stood along a road and shot video of the car and me flying by.

    We also lost 10 miles of range stuck in a maddening two-hour traffic jam south of Waxahachie, apparently caused by some Texas Department of Transportation project. Thanks, TxDOT.

    By the time we got to Waco, we had 66 miles of range on the meter, having burned through 165 miles of electricity to go roughly 100 miles.

    Ready for a recharge

    We pulled into the Collin Street Bakery parking lot on the east side of I-35, where eight Tesla supercharging stations awaited us on the north side of the lot.

    Once I got the electric lifeline from the supercharger hooked into the Tesla’s charging port, we were free to go inside the bakery for a sandwich or coffee or whatever to kill an hour.

    “Most of us don’t even like to stop for gas, so I don’t know how many people would accept a 30-minute or one-hour delay,” he said.

    After an hour, we left Waco with 255 miles of range crackling in the batteries. This time, I somehow managed to stay under 80.

    As a result, we arrived at the newspaper in downtown Dallas with 144 miles left on the range meter.

    That’s pretty impressive for an electric car. But Tesla will need to do more, Nerad believes.

    http://res.dallasnews.com/interactives/2013_November/teslatest/
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So if Tesla were to have charging stations strategically located every 150 miles across the USA, it would only add about two days driving time to the cross country trip. I'll stick to filling once a day driving 550-650 miles. Also you won't find decent sized cities located every 150 miles any direction you decide to go.

    I see the Tesla relegated to an Urban Look at ME car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well that's true...there is the SMUG factor. But unlike Segways, Smart cars, Toyota IQ and some EVs, you don't look dorky driving a Tesla.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Tesla is a beautiful car. It would lose it's glamour for me parked along an interstate with a depleted battery. The computer said I had two more miles.
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