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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You have to think of it this way - never wait in line for gas again. Charging at home means never having to stop, and that's a convenience some people are willing to pay for.

    Side note - the Civic CNG also requires a filling station be installed at home, if you want that capability that is. I think at first the cost was included but later it was extra-cost.

    Don't ask me why but I hate stopping for gas, so I can understand the value of the convenience of filling up at home.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That Tier 4 rate is charged only the energy you actually use over 200% of your baseline.

    My baseline is 324 KWH. My bills averaged $93 per month in 2011. We are very cost conscious on leaving lights or using the AC when the house is below 80 degrees. My neighbor has many $400 months when AC is needed. The Solar people told me they could not save me any money. And on that 27 cents for tier 4 you left out all the taxes and service charges. SDG&E does offer a night charge rate. Still way above the national 11 cents per KWH.

    So I have to repeat, that an EV without solar in So CA is not at all cost effective. Without the generosity of the tax payers they are a complete waste of money.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Don't ask me why but I hate stopping for gas, so I can understand the value of the convenience of filling up at home.

    I hate stopping for gas as well. I've become the designated fueler for all three cars. My wife hasn't pumped gas in 14 months. Here's the kicker - I try to fuel up all three cars on Saturday so all are good to go for the week.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Charging at home means never having to stop, and that's a convenience some people are willing to pay for.

    IF you have a short enough commute. I talked to a guy with a leaf. His wife drives it to work 35 miles each way. They have a charging station at her work location. More than once she has come out in the afternoon to find someone had disconnected her car and made it marginal getting back up the hill to home.

    I also hate stopping for gas. That is why a diesel that gets twice as many miles on a tank is the best choice for me.

    Last I read the home fill units for CNG are not available. PHILL went bankrupt last I read. They cost about $4000 plus installation. And you have to have a high flow rate from your gas company.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited September 2012
    My baseline is 324 KWH. My bills averaged $93 per month in 2011. We are very cost conscious on leaving lights or using the AC when the house is below 80 degrees.

    I give you great credit then. I have not had a month under 600 KW in the past year and my bill averages about $150. Last month was 1700 KW - we had a few warm days, I know work from home and I have two teens who seem to think I own the electric company - I've waited years to use that phrase :).

    And on that 27 cents for tier 4 you left out all the taxes and service charges.

    Are those fixed costs or based on the usage? If fixed, then your cost per KwH goes down the more you use. And I was wrong on my costs. I only looked at the delivery charge for my power - I didn't include the Generation Charges.

    Together I pay 15.2 cents per KwH bringing my per mile cost to 4.81 cents. So 25 miles costs me a little over $1.20 - still more that 70% less than the $4.10 gallon of gas.

    In your case, 34 cents per KwH will bring your cost to 11 cents per mile. 25 miles is $2.75. I'll be generous and give your Sequoia 25 miles per gallon and $4 for regular in San Diego - yeah I'm really generous - you'll save over 30% by driving an EV.

    :)

    Now I'm not saying that it's the perfect solution for everyone but please don't dismiss it for everyone just because it doesn't work for you.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I talked to a guy with a leaf. His wife drives it to work 35 miles each way. They have a charging station at her work location. More than once she has come out in the afternoon to find someone had disconnected her car and made it marginal getting back up the hill to home.

    In that case, I agree it's not the best solution for them. When I was commuting it was 35 miles round trip. That would work. If I had to rely on charging at work, I'd have to reconsider it.

    BTW, tell her to go outside more often and make sure nobody has unplugged her - I'm guessing she knows who is doing it so they can plug in theirs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    many miles on a tank

    That's one area where you and I could not agree more.

    Drive me nuts when they make tanks smaller just because MPG is up. The Prius C holds just 8.9 gallons. That's dumb! You probably only use about 7.5 gallons of that, so range is severely limited.

    The new Golf 1.6TDI holds 13.2 gallons, but the old one took 14.5!

    Didn't your old Passat have an 18 gallon tank? Now you're talking. Fill up once a month!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    An easy fix would be for the EPA to juggle their mpg ratings so that all cars are assumed to have 15 gallon tanks, 20 for SUVs and minivans.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, that will stop the magically shrinking fuel capacities.

    What's the point of high MPG if you can't enjoy driving by gas stations again and again (and again)?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    BTW, tell her to go outside more often and make sure nobody has unplugged her - I'm guessing she knows who is doing it so they can plug in theirs.

    I would think she should check it at least at Lunch. It is in the Navy depot parking lot. Don't get me wrong. I would have an EV if I could figure out a good use to justify it. Being retired and not putting that many miles on a vehicle per year makes it difficult to justify. And it would be better than any vehicle we currently have. Best is the the old LS400 that gets maybe 17 MPG on premium. If I was looking for a commuter vehicle I would pencil out a Golf TDI to a Leaf for a comparison on cost per mile.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have two teens who seem to think I own the electric company - I've waited years to use that phrase

    Kids are difficult to train when it comes to lights. We have 56 recessed lights and I changed them all to CFL when SDG&E had a promotion. I got rid of the hot tub we rarely used and only turn on the AC when it is over 80 degrees in the house. Both my wife and I are very good at turning out lights. We train our grandchildren to do the same when they visit.

    The guy with the Leaf said SDG&E gives you tier one rates on a separate meter for an EV charging at night. So you have a separate meter base and box for just your EV.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited September 2012
    We have 56 recessed lights and I changed them all to CFL when SDG&E had a promotion.

    We had this conversation before. I've switched over 13 recessed lights in my kitchen/great room to LED's. That was about the time I started working from home. My energy use is about the same.

    The guy with the Leaf said SDG&E gives you tier one rates on a separate meter for an EV charging at night.

    So tier one is 14 cents vs 27 cents - that's a 50% decrease in driving costs. Heck, it makes it less than mine.

    Like I said earlier, it won't work for everyone but for those for which it can an EV is a great alternative.

    An EV could work well for a retiree if the extent of their travel is going to the doctor in town, off to Wal-Mart and then racing down to Red Lobster to make the early bird!! God I hope I never fall into that rut. Maybe Yakima will make attachments for the Volt someday.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    What's the point of high MPG if you can't enjoy driving by gas stations again and again (and again)?

    Yeah, especially since for every gallon of capacity you give up, you're only saving something like 6.2 pounds of weight.

    I think it's a bit annoying that my new "hybrid" (hey, a few years back, the Hemi ads said it burned gas and rubber :P ) probably has a larger range, with its 26 gallon tank, than many economy vehicles.

    One car that I thought had a really good balance of economy and range was the 2007-12 Altima. 20 gallon tank, and an EPA rating of 23/32 with the 4-cyl.

    the 2013 is rated at an impressive 27/38...but the tank has shrunk a bit, to 18 gallons. At least cruising range actually went up though...to 684 miles in highway driving, versus an already impressive 640. But, of course, that's presuming you drive the car until it runs out of gas, and hopefully you have the common sense not to do that!

    Looks like the 2012 Accord was around 18.5 gallons, and they shrunk it to 17.2 for 2013. The 2012 Camry is a bit smaller at 17. Not *too* bad though...that's what my Intrepid had. But, the 2011 had 18.5 gallons.

    So, it looks like this fuel tank shrinkage isn't just happening in economy cars.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    So, it looks like this fuel tank shrinkage isn't just happening in economy cars.

    I wonder if tank shrinkage might also be a result of consumers complaining about the cost of filling up. I'd venture to say that most say "It cost me $70 to fill my tank this week" rather than "It took 16 gallons to fill the tank this week."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited September 2012
    God I hope I never fall into that rut.

    There are literally hundreds of thousands of Retirees already using EVs for all the short trips. Most of the retirement communities are laid out ideally for using golf carts. The Villages in Florida is just such a place. My friends that live there rarely drive their RX350.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrpq5A-KAoA
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    There are literally hundreds of thousands of Retirees already using EVs for all the short trips. Most of the retirement communities are laid out ideally for using golf carts. The Villages in Florida are just such a place.

    I'm well aware of that. My in-laws live in a retirement community about 15 minutes from the Villages. The Villages development is more of a self contained city (it's population is over 60,000) with it's own hospital, many chain stores and restaurants and the like. Because it's a planned community, they were able to incorporate the use of golf carts into it. My in-laws use a golf cart within their complex but it can't be used outside to reach shopping and doctors. And those golf carts are a little useless during the rainy season.

    But the vast majority of retirees don't live in self contained places like the Villages. If I were to retire here in my town, I could get by with an EV because everything I need is close by. But I'd need something with greater range to reach the mountains and bike trails.

    BTW, get a book called Leisureville - it's written by a younger man who went behind the Emerald City to expose the seedy side of the Villages. One rumor is that the Villages has a high incidence of STD's. Better bring some penicillin when you visit!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Lamborghini Aventador: Just Like a Prius? (WSJ)

    The trickle down effect went in the opposite direction. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We have to communicate to the automakers, fuel tank size does matter! :D
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    I wonder if tank shrinkage might also be a result of consumers complaining about the cost of filling up.

    Yeah, that could very well be. On the flip side though, I've heard people make a comment like "I went XXX miles, and only used a half tank" thinking that they got really good fuel economy. But what they forget to mention is how big the tank is, and that the gauge isn't totally accurate, so the second "half" goes down a lot quicker than the first! :P
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...the second 'half' goes down a lot quicker than the first!"

    True, but why?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    "...the second 'half' goes down a lot quicker than the first!"

    True, but why?

    Ah grasshopper. That answer is kept secret by the one who knows the whereabouts of the missing socks. It is a mystery best left unrevealed.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Oh well, okay. I'll just humbly accept that it's one of those complex mysteries of the universe that may never be answered. Maybe the shadow knows, but isn't telling anyone.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I'll tell you on the several Hondas I've had they all seemed to go a long time on full. By the time the gauge hit 3/4 it was almost time to start hunting down a gas station...
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    3/4 full, 1/2 full; are you trying to confuse me more than I already am? I'll be afraid to leave my house with less than 7/8.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What is not to like about this concept? A hybrid that should be fun to drive and get 213 MPG in the process.

    An innovative and efficient plug-in hybrid drive based on a purpose-designed

    1.5-liter three-cylinder TFSI and two electric motors redefines the benchmark, with fuel consumption of only 1.1 liters per 100 km (213.81 US mpg) and CO2 emissions of just 26 grams per km (41.84 grams per mile).

    The result is a cosmopolitan vehicle that will appeal to young, sporty customers in particular thanks to its removable roof and the customizable services available under the Audi connect concept.

    http://www.desktopmachine.com/press/1776/Audi_Crossline_Coupe_Concept//25781/
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2012
    Not bad.

    Wish I could do Photoshop though. That grill is just asking for a big 3 prong outlet to be superimposed on it. :)

    Wish I could find some images of that moveable trunk.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is my biggest complaint with Audi. The ugly gaping mouth. They got away from it a while. Maybe Europeans like that look. VW has the best of the German styling right now IMO. I wonder why they went with gas over diesel for the Hybrid. Maybe the gas engine starts easier and more smoothly.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited October 2012
    Then there was the September report from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), which questioned the value of tax credits for electric vehicles. The report, titled "Effects of Federal Tax Credits for the Purchase of Electric Vehicles," took special aim at pure electric cars with big batteries.
    "Assuming that everything else is equal, the larger an electric vehicle's battery capacity, the greater its cost disadvantage relative to conventional vehicles -- and the larger the tax credit needed to make it cost competitive," the report stated. "Conversely, electric vehicles with small batteries are more cost-competitive."

    Big Battery EVs Under Fire
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited October 2012
    "I wonder why they went with gas over diesel for the Hybrid."

    I'd guess that cost is the reason. Hybrids and diesels each cost more than gasoline engines. I'm thinking that a diesel hybrid doesn't offer sufficient fuel economy improvement over a gasoline hybrid to justify the incremental cost. The incremental improvement of diesel over gas is greater than diesel hybrid over gas hybrid because the IC engine shares the work with the electric.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    As a roadster/ragtop guy, I like the trick two-position top.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    we're in beautiful Coeur d' Alene, ID. Took a little trip to Spokane earlier today and now I'm in Post Falls, ID. It's nice to have the temperature down to a reasonable level lately.

    Yes, I still have the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS and although it needs a bath pretty badly I'm glad I chose the Rally Red color and kept to the waxing and protectant routine every 6 months with Avondale Mitsubishi. It's paid off.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I love Couer d' Alene. At least I did last time I was there in 1968. We just had the two hottest days of the year. 111 degrees Monday 101 yesterday. Both records. July was the coldest July on record. Strange weather.

    I think our dreams of having a practical EV are still a long ways off.

    Bailo also said Nissan expects the roughly 450 Leafs its sold in Arizona to have an average battery capacity of 76 percent after five years -- a slightly worse rate of shrinkage than elsewhere -- with some owners suffering more. That did little to assuage worried owners about their newfound range anxiety; as one posted on the MyNissanLeaf forum after Bailo's letter: "If they truly believe this they would have a better battery warranty. I LOVE my Leaf, but I can't recommend them anymore because of this issue."

    http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/nissan-leaf-battery-troubles-owners-negat- ive-shock-180958755.html
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited October 2012
    yeah, I no longer am interested in buying an electric car. When they can build one with a price around $20,000 and a range of 250 miles with a top speed of 90mph I'll be at their door knocking.

    Notice how BYD and their e6 have made a gigantic flop of their "dreams" to import the e6 here, with it's range of 250 miles and top speed of 100mph? Right. :)

    Of course, they were planning on charging around $40,000 for that one, too, though.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Burn, Baby, Burn: Fisker Inferno

    More than a dozen Fisker Karma plug-in hybrids caught fire at a shipping facility in New Jersey after being submerged in seawater during Hurricane Sandy.

    The fire in Port Newark burned 16 of the $100,000 vehicles after a storm surge submerged the cars, which are produced by Anaheim-based Fisker Automotive, the company confirmed.

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/fire-376417-company-fisker.html
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Elon Musk (of Tesla) is cracking up right now.

    Leno just tested a Model S and loved it.

    Meanwhile, CR's Fisker broke down completely and needed a tow. Embarassing, plus these fires, yikes.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    PS Imagine all the environmental damage those fires did, probably more pollution than a good car would put out in its lifetime.

    Fiskers have a gas tank, so I bet the gas fuelled the flames (eventually), but the batteries started it.

    Salt water in the electrics = not good.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe the fires that burnt 80 homes were started by a hybrid or EV????

    May be a long time till they figure out what happened there.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wouldn't want to speculate about that, plus I doubt it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Usually those things start with a broken natural gas line. I have not found any cause. Fire dept says the start of the fire is unclear.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Salt water, electrical shorts, sparks, lots of fuel supplies, ... could be anything.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://techland.time.com/2012/11/01/best-inventions-of-the-year-2012/slide/the-t- esla-model-s/
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not that it matters if all the cars are under 5' of seawater.

    "After a thorough inspection witnessed by (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) representatives, Fisker engineers determined that the damage to the Karmas was the result of the cars being submerged under 5-8 feet of seawater for several hours that left corrosive salt in a low-voltage Vehicle Control Unit in one Karma," the company said.

    "The Vehicle Control Unit is a standard component found in many types of vehicles and is powered by a typical 12V car battery. This residual salt damage caused a short circuit, which led to a fire that heavy winds then spread to other Karmas parked nearby."

    Fisker Reveals Cause of Karma Fires During Hurricane Sandy (Inside Line)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And if you believe that BS I got a bridge for sale. That is all Damage control for the EV agenda. Cars we paid to have built in a foreign country. I guess we are stuck with 4 more years of lies and deception on the Green Agenda.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    They very carefully worded their statement to imply the standard 12v battery started the fire, but if that were the case all flooded cars would have gone up in flames.

    The battery pack stores a LOT more energy than a regular 12v pack and relies on liquid cooling and all sorts of sophisticated engineering to cool itself.

    Not that cars must be built to withstand floods, but the statement is extremely misleading.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think a 12V lead acid battery would get that hot with salt water covering it. It would dissipate its charge. I wonder how big the 12volt battery is. In the Prius it is a little thing to keep the computers going. I noticed the careful wording as well.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I did not realize they lost 300 of the Fisker plug-in Hybrids.

    The Fisker is not new to fires.

    The company previously had incidents of cars catching fire, one in California related to a cooling fan, and one in Texas for which the cause is still being determined, the company said.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/11/06/sandy-swamped-shipment-of-more-than- -300-fisker-cars/
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It was news to me also. Here:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/07/fisker-loses-over-300-karmas-in-sandy-flood- s-at-port-newark/

    Those didn't catch fire, though. Maybe the 12v battery was dead! ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/07/hurricane-sandy-cost-automakers-15-000-vehicl- es-may-have-ruined/

    15,000 unsold vehicles, but NADA is saying it could have destroyed 200,000 personal vehicles! Yikes.

    Hopefully with good insurance.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    EV owners are able to charge during the gas shortage:

    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/electric-car-owners-unfazed-by-storm/-
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Are EV sales Dead???

    Nissan Motor CEO Carlos Ghosn finally admitted the automaker will not meet its sales target for its all-electric Leaf — in another sign of the broad struggle of the electric vehicle industry.

    "The forecast we have given ourselves for the year will not be reached," Ghosn told Bloomberg Television in Mexico City on Thursday.

    Despite months of lagging sales, the Japanese automaker has steadfastly refused to acknowledge that it could not double sales in 2012 to 20,000 after selling nearly 10,000 in 2011.

    In October, the Leaf also had its best month all year, selling 1,579, up 86 percent from a year ago. For the year, Nissan has sold 6,791 Leafs, down 15.6 percent from this time a year ago.

    Nissan sold 9,679 all-electric Leafs in 2011.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121115/AUTO0104/211150461/1361/Nissan-CEO-a- bandons--12-electric-vehicle-sales-target
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