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All-New 2010 Legacy/Outback

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Comments

  • lasubeguylasubeguy Member Posts: 18
    Does anyone out there know if: a) it would ever be feasible for Subaru to put a CVT transmission on a 6 cylinder Legacy? and 2) has there been any further talk at Subaru about putting an auto tranny back on the Legacy GT with the turbo engine?

    I currently drive a 2010 Legacy LTD with CVT and while I'm mostly very happy with it overall, I keep wondering about the 3.6 LTD next time and what the advantages might really be.

    Worse mileage I'm sure, but is the heft/feeling of the 6 that much better? Is it worth losing the great mileage on the CVT for the different in feeling/performance in the 6? Is the car that much smoother on the highway? Less vibration? What are the real advantages and disadvantages of the six?

    Thanks.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nissan and Audi have put CVTs on powerful V6s, so I'm sure Subaru could if they wanted to.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    I was thinking exactly the same thing. It's coming; just a matter of time.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • frenchguy007frenchguy007 Member Posts: 28
    interesting, sounds like it may be on Canadian cars that the bluetooth speaker is in the middle console. I just checked the US site and sure enough where my bluetooth is located there is a covered storage compartment. The steering wheel also has the answer/hang up button on it, my car does not have this feature.

    I am doubly peeved at Subaru for doing this stupid move just for Canadian cars. Talk about poor planning.

    Thanks for letting me know.
  • nickelnickel Member Posts: 147
    After 3 years with a Tribeca, I bought an Outback 3 weeks ago. Mine is a 2.5 Premium with the Moonroof Pack. You will feel 2 huge differences:

    - The steering in the Outback is hard. I thought it was only mine, after so many web induced preconceptions. This steering is never going to have a shaking issue this hard. It looks like Subaru, concerned after the shake complains worked it that way to avoid the noise. After 1 week, I even had to go to the dealer to try another one, but is the same. So no worries about shaking, but coming from the Tribeca you will feel like in the new car no sporting steering (direction wise) will be found. To be more precise, the Tribeca is a marvel when you address the highway curves. You feel you can take any curve over 100 mph. Forget about that in the Outback. Car and Driver refer to it when the first reviewed the car, to use their words: Artificially heavy steering just off-center.

    - The pump trips will make you happy. I have been averaging 25.2 mpg in 60% highway. That is more than 460 miles per tank, that in my case is over 6 days between fill ups. The Tribeca was 19.5 mpg, or 300 per fill up (4 days). Maybe for some people the act of filling the car is smooth, but in Minnesota, those 13 to 14 more fill ups per winter are good to avoid. They wear you down.

    - I paid Subaru VIP, that is, invoice.

    - Inside the main difference again the OB are the sound system (I had the premium sound before) and the automatic passenger seat (OB is manual).

    - In favor of the OB, the back seat is easier to in & out. I like the wireless link mirror (the OB had the link on the visor). Also, the OB came with the rubber tray in the back. I use the parking brake a lot, and it takes to get use to the new, electronic one (nothing to be concerned other than no one but you knows where it is, so explain to wife or friends when you lend it).

    - The Tribeca never gave me issues with the transmission, but I am amaze at the easyness of the CVT. Of course the car is slower (from 0-60), but in highway I go 50-80 quick enough as to be afraid of cops.

    - My estimated costs are going to be down at least by $700 a year, because uses less fuel and oil. Marginally, the 17 tires will be at least $300 cheaper when time to change comes. Also the resale can be easier and maybe better residual.

    - I plan to keep the car six years. My biggest gripe is the fact that the original hitch (to be used just to carry bikes) is close to $600 installed. I still have months to decide.

    All in all, is my 4th Subaru, and I am happy with it. Is a notch down in my own personal preference to the Tribeca, but I couldn't keep it for personal (marriage) issues.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Thanks for the review, Nickel!

    Regarding the hitch, I strongly recommend aftermarket. E-trailer.com has a variety of high-quality hitches for under $200 (class II or III) and they are a breeze to install. Even having a shop do it, you'll likely save close to 50% versus the price you estimated above.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The ex got the Tribeca? Must've had a good attorney. ;)
  • nickelnickel Member Posts: 147
    It was a lease, but anyway she has a hell of an attorney
  • ilyazilyaz Member Posts: 3
    I am thinking of buying 2011 Limited edition. The standard stereo does not seem to come with a USB port. There is an option to install a "media hub" for almost $500, but it appears that this hub is nothing but a cable with a USB port. It seems that my only alternatives are:
    1. To buy the car without the hub and replace the stereo with a unit from a 3rd party provider like Crutchfield.
    2. To buy the car without the hub and try to add the USB interface to the standard stereo myself.

    The bad part about #1 is that I will lose steering wheel controls. About #2, I have no idea whether this is doable and how easy and cheap it is to do it well. Do you know?

    thanks much!
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    2. To buy the car without the hub and try to add the USB interface to the standard stereo myself.

    I don't have an Outback, but I recently added an iPod interface to my '06 Honda CR-V. The cost of the device, including professional installation, was $240. It allows me to control my iPod (a 4th generation Touch) using my car stereo controls, displays song titles on my factory-installed Honda stereo, charges the iPod & does not interfere with my steering wheel controls. The sound quality equals that of CDs played on my Honda stereo.

    I've had it for just a couple of weeks, but I'm pleased with it. To see if this is available for your Subaru, go to www.usaspec.com.

    Hope this helps.
  • xhcxkidxhcxkid Member Posts: 4
    I'm not sure if anyone has any experience in this area but, has anyone encountered a great deal of traction issues with their legacy mine tends to have wheel hop and the front wheels lock up to the point that they squeek when the car starts going
    this occurs even with traction control off
  • rnmedicrnmedic Member Posts: 3
    I'll be in the market for a new (or newer) car in a couple of months, and would like a bit of feeback on driving and owning a Subaru.

    I'm an RN, and recently transferred from CCU to home health; instead of driving to work three days a week and leaving the car in a parking ramp for 13 hours, I'll be driving from patient to patient five days a week. I live in northwestern PA, right along Lake Erie, so there's 4-5 months of winter.

    Right now I drive a 2003 Volkswagen Jetta wagon TDI, and while the fuel economy is still pretty good at 206,000 miles, the winter handling is pretty, well.... awful. I'm looking for a vehicle that an handle a foot or so of snow and mud during the spring (some of my patients are in rural areas). Many of the other guys at the fire department have four wheel drive pickups, but I'll be driving 50-80 miles a day and feeding an F150 just isn't in my budget.

    What's it like having an Outback? Should I look at a Forester instead, or is there some other vehicle that might make sense for me? I've considered a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, if for no other reason than it's built in Toledo. This time around I'd like to deal with an American car company, or buy a foreign model that's built in the states. Thanks for the advice!
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Should you choose a 2009-2011 Forester, be sure to NOT buy the base model that does not have lumbar support! I got a back ache in 30 minutes driving one. My 2010 Forester XT Limited which has the lumbar support is very comfortable.

    The back seat room is almost the same for the 2009 and later Forester and 2010-2011 Outback. There is an advantage to choosing the 2011 Forester (without turbo) which has Subaru's new, sturdier and easier to service engine. The Outback does not yet have the new engine. The Forester's MPG won't match your TDI's, but snow drifts won't matter.

    The 2010-2011 Outback with its CVT automatic will have somewhat better MPG than the Forester, but a higher purchase price. The Forester does not lean as much in curves.
  • bob192bob192 Member Posts: 19
    A Subaru would do much better in snow with the AWD. I don't know about foot deep snow though. Fuel economy is very important though. You should get a mileage reimbursement and it probably wouldn't cover the cost fueling a big pickup or even a Jeep. I have two family members who did home nursing for a while and one with a Jeep Liberty took a beating on the fuel cost. On top of that, the IRS says the miles to your first stop each day is considered the commute and they don't have to reimburse them. This leg was usually the longest one of the day. My Outback gets low to mid twenties in local driving and it was built by American workers in the state of Indiana. Good luck.
  • jtny1jtny1 Member Posts: 18
    I love my legacy the forester has less leg room! But I do not think the new legacy/outback is as good in snow as old ones, I think they did something with the symetrical awd, they don't advertise it either that way anymore. It was nto bad in snow it was fine but just not as good as old subi's i had. On another note if it had been out before I got mine I would probally get the 2011 Kia sportage, I hear great awd plus a lock you can turn on to keep it in 4x4 mode. it is also roomy, affordable, pretty and has got pretty nice reviews. You could look at the sister suv by hyndai also. I love my subaru but i just feel they cheapened ahe awd system for better fuel economy, etc and after all subaru was always noted for 1 thing its awd drive system, so they kind of sold themselves out!
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Automatic 4 cylinder Subarus have had similar torque split for years: about 85% front/15% rear until more rear is needed. Manual have 50%/50% at all times.

    6 cylinder Outbacks (all automatic) have closer to 55%/45%.

    More recent models which have traction control are much BETTER in snow than the older ones which had a problem with left-to-right front wheel slip.

    My garage is on an always not-plowed alley: My 2010 (and 2005 VDC) do better in snow drifts than my 1997. Several of my past VW and Audi models with AWD had insufficient ground clearance for this alley.
  • lasubeguylasubeguy Member Posts: 18
    Hi, RNMedic. Although I now live a long way from PA winters, I lived there for 15 years in the past (late 80s and 90s) and I cannot recommend any car more strongly for winter driving than Subaru. I've had Audis too, and while they are OK with regard to their traction in winter weather, the ongoing reliability issues are too much to deal with. My Subarus in PA ALWAYS got me to and from places safely (34 miles r/t commute daily through hilly terrain), ALWAYS pulled me out of snow banks while Jeeps and many other vehicles sat spinning their wheels. I've had the old GL-10 wagon as well as multiple Legacys and Legacy wagons (since replaced by Outbacks). Subarus are just built to handle bad weather, and the new ones are even better than the ones I drove 10 years ago in PA. They have all the latest traction control equipment standard plus Subaru's legendary AWD system. I now live in Southern CA and still drive Subarus because I often go up into the mountains to ski here and they still amaze me in snow and ice. They handle well no matter where you are. I have friends and family all over Massachusetts and Vermont and they wouldn't drive anything else. Get the best one you can get in terms of options and extras....and enjoy it. I am currently driving my 5th one and there will definitely be a 6th one, and a 7th one....
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I concur with what everyone else has said here. Subarus are excellent in the winter. If you want some extra traction insurance, get a set of good winter tires. By doing so, you can go just about anywhere. You don't need a truck; get a Subaru. An Outback will be the most comfortable, a Forester a bit more nimble. Either one is a winner.

    Bob
  • rnmedicrnmedic Member Posts: 3
    Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions and advice. I have to say I'm relieved to find out Subaru makes cars here; definitely puts them at the top of my list.

    Which leads me to my next question. With my wife changing jobs, I might have to go with a gently used Subaru instead of new. Was there a model year that was particularly good for Foresters or Outbacks? A model year to avoid? A particular trim level to look for, or keep away from?

    My wife's vehicle, a Honda Pilot, has heated leather seats and a sunroof, which I've come to love -- though at opposite times of the year. Thanks again!
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    edited November 2010
    Was there a model year that was particularly good for Foresters or Outbacks? A model year to avoid? A particular trim level to look for, or keep away from?

    You might want to give priority to models with stability control (which includes traction control). That will help in situations that need maximum traction and provide additional safety in winter conditions. The earliest model with it is labeled "VDC" on one model of the 2005 6 cylinder Outback. Four cylinder Outback models got stability control later and I believe Forester stability control started in 2009. The Forester is made in Japan and the Outback is assembled in Indiana which may affect your choice. I suspect the Japanese made models are slightly more reliable.
  • orangelebaronorangelebaron Member Posts: 435
    If you have long legs, you will need a telescoping steering wheel, which was not available until 2008 model year Outback. Otherwise, you will drive hunched over like me. I have a 2005 Limited and the front seats are far from comfortable. For 2006, the front seats were redesigned a little and didn't seem as bad as mine.
    If you do get a 2005, some of them have a problem with the wiring harness cracking by the tailgate causing the tailights to go out (it's an easy fix if you know the cause!) and the rear wheel bearings go out around 60K (Subaru extended the warranty on this).
    Oh the cat goes out early too, but by gov't law, they have to replace it up to 80K or so.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited November 2010
    They're all good, but the Legacy/Outback 6-cylinder (turbos too I think) with both VDC and VDT have the most sophisticated AWD with a 45/55 front/rear default power split.

    Bob
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    Be sure to drive both the Forester and Outback. You may prefer the driving characteristics of one much more than the other. I have a 2009 Outback and love it. My wife has a 07 Forester and she feels the same about her subaru - but she dislikes my Outback. Meanwhile, I prefer the Outback. I find the older generation (pre 2009) Foresters to be noisy. Once you decide which to get, then focus on the trim levels - which differ every year, with previous year's optional equipment gradually becoming standard equipment. I believe my 09 Outback was the first year with VDC standard across all trim lines. Most, except the very base, have heated seats.

    Fuel economy is very slightly better in the Outback than the Forester. I drive all highway 50-60 mpg with less than 2% city driving. My calculated average for the first 38K miles is 29.7 mpg. The trip odometer is close, but very slightly optimistic.
    I have gotten as high as 33 and 34 mpg on long trips at steady speed with pure gas (not E10) and my low was 25 in the snow. When I drive my wife's Forester the same way - hypermiling techniques, coasting to stops and not using the brakes, I get about 0.5 to 1 mpg less - probably due to increased wind resistance. Most people get lower mpg than I do.

    Don't test drive one in unfamiliar territory during the deer rut at dusk. I hit a deer with a beautiful certified LLBean Outback on a test drive.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    Subaru makes one of the very best winter-driving cars on the market. Both the Outback and the Forester are competent. I have driven a 1997 Outback for 14 years this December but would not touch a new 2010 or 2011 Outback because an unknown percentage of these cars have some sort of design defect which causes them to shake and shimmy while steering at highway miles. There have been a large number of different "fixes" applied in an attempt to remedy the problem but none of them definitively work and some merely mask the problem. RUN - DON'T WALK AWAY from an Outback dealer who denies knowledge of the problem. After complaints from all over Canada and the U.S. there is way a given dealer is ignorant of this problem, especially since Subaru has issued a series of TSBs about the problem with more to follow.

    But don't abandon Subaru because of the defective OB which probably won't be truly fixed until the next full re-design unless they get really lucky with the next TSB.

    The Forester is also a great car, especially in the XT (turbo) configuration. Heavily updated this year for 2011 it has many improvements including creature comforts such as a better audio system which has been traditionally been a weak point of the car, it is greatly improved. It has 8.9" of ground clearance in the XT version and a bulletproof and incomparable full-time AWD system. Highly worth a look. I am considering it to replace my old OB.

    If you are or would consider a slightly larger vehicle you could do no better than the 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee, new from the ground up. I have investigated this new vehicle thoroughly now for several months and have driven no fewer than six! You have the option of a 6 cylinder Pentastar engine (more frugal and brand new this year) or the venerable but effective HEMI which has been repeatedly on the Ward's Ten Best Engines list. If you pull a trailer, get the HEMI. If you enjoy good acceleration, get the HEMI. The quality, fit and manufacture (in Detroit at the North Jefferson Assembly Plant and you can't get much more unadulterated American that than!), the vehicle is truly impressive. It is VERY quiet at highway speeds (literally as quiet as the Rolls-Royce Ghost at highway speeds, has unparalleled off-road and snow capabilities, superb audio system and Garmin NAV. The interior has fancy Italian touches for a bit of class and it is definitely a pleasant place to spend time in.

    The downside is that there is a fairly steep purchase price a higher gas bills compared to the Forester but you also have a better dealer network and the legendary Jeep brand for off-road and snow-handling prowess.

    And one more thing: don't be put off by the past poor reliability of Jeeps. This new 2011 JGC is a brand new bag and in no way comparable to Jeeps of yesteryear!

    You will do yourself a disservice if you fail to consider the new Jeep GC.

    That is all I have to say. Enjoy your new Forester XT or Jeep Grand, whichever you buy.
  • nedlyjnedlyj Member Posts: 89
    Really? Run away from the 2011 OB? I don't agree at all. There is no "shake and shimmy" in my 2011 OB, there is some road vibration in the steering wheel at 75mph. Yes the new JGC is a new beast - which means nothing except it's a first year model in a line that has had serious quality issues in the past. Won't know anything for several years. The only thing we do know about the JGC is that regardless of how good it is it will lose 75% of its value in 3 years. The new OB is an extremely nice vehicle that's worth recommending.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    ^ And how does this have anything to do with Subaru???

    Bob
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    You talk as if you know it all but you know very little. Just because your OB has not started shaking (yet) it does not mean it won't at some indeterminate point later on. The fact is buying the car is a gamble. If you don't believe that just go to the many sites (including this one) that report shakers literally by the hundreds and yes I have counted some of these reports.

    To recommend such a car with a clear propensity to shake in many individual cars (not all) is both irresponsible and arrogant. How would you like to buy a car someone had strongly recommenced only to be saddled with a shaker and all its attendant miseries? I think the Golden Rule should apply here.

    As for the Jeep Grand Cherokee, although it is new (and that is the whole point - it is entirely new from the ground up) there are exactly no reports of anything save rare minor glitches and there are certainly no frequent reports of serious issues like shaking steering wheels in multiple cars on multiple websites by multiple people. Its past reliability issues are irrelevant and despite them it does have a strong cult following, like the OB used to have until reliability issues reared their ugly heads.

    And if you think that what you are calling "some road vibration in the steering wheel at 75 mph" is normal (apparently lots of OB salesmen say the same thing despite the fact their service departments have received multiple TSBs in a futile attempt to mask the problem, you are in denial. Unwittingly, you are giving a perfect description of the shaker problem although yours may not be as noticeable as others at this point.

    Look, don't misunderstand me. I have been a Subaru OB fan for a lot longer than most on this board, having driven the very same 1997 (in service 13 December 1996) for 14 straight years this coming December so I surely don't call a spade a spade for nothing. It sickens me that a brand new car is prone to a real problem. I wanted one to replace my elderly OB but I won't run the risk of picking up one that has a problem I would detest and could not get fixed and I ain't about to spend literally months jumping through Subaru hoops while they try to mask my issue.

    Dump the shaking OB, buy the JGC. You'll be glad you did and that advice to other potential buyers of SUVs is bound to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

    Have a nice day, now.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Was there a model year that was particularly good for Foresters or Outbacks? A model year to avoid? A particular trim level to look for, or keep away from?

    Generally the head gaskets of model years 2002 and prior were an issue, but you're likely to buy newer than that anyway. The H6 models never had that issue.

    What else? 2002 WRX manual transmissions were a bit fragile. Wheel bearings on Imprezas prior to 2002 and Foresters prior to 2003.

    For any used Subaru, turn off the radio and find a big, empty parking lot. Drive in a tight figure-8 pattern on dry pavement, open the windows and listen. It should be smooth in all directions.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    I agree that VDC will be an option to look for in your Subaru. 2008 was the first year that the Outback began offering this as an option on non-H6 models. In 2009, it was standard. I owned a 2008 with an automatic and it was a fantastic car. I only bought it for a temporary car (owned it four months), so I did not put a set of studless snow tires on it, but with some it will get you where you need to go.

    If you do not get VDC, the 2005 through 2009 Outbacks had limited slip rear axles, which enhances their 'go' from two drive wheels (one front, one rear) to three.

    In terms of interior passenger room, they are MUCH smaller than the 2009+ Forester or the 2010+ Outback, but they have more cargo space than the new Forester. If you consider the Forester, 2009+ (the early 2009 models are nearing three years old now) have VDC and better ground clearance than earlier Foresters or 2005-2009 Outbacks.

    Again, with a good set of winter tires, any of them will get you where you need to go... and back! I strongly recommend making sure you have the normal emergency winter supplies, along with a small shovel and a nice recovery strap, as you never know when you'll need to pull others out of the ditch. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • gmginsfogmginsfo Member Posts: 116
    My trusty local Evans tire shop, which does all my routine oil changes and tire rotations, discovered that loose valves on my two rear tires' pressure monitoring system was behind my losing 1-2 lbs. of air and the panel's low tire pressure light illuminating every 2 weeks or so. They tightened them up and all's well.

    Now, how about someone getting back to me about my previously expressed concerns over downshifting with the paddles, as I frequently do when the arrows allow it. Any possibility of this wearing out the tranny? I'm "sensitive" to this issue because the 4-speed auto on my '03 Forester went bad by 90K miles, which was as disappointing as it was surprising, especially since I'm a pretty conservative driver.
  • gmginsfogmginsfo Member Posts: 116
    edited November 2010
    Reading some of these comments, I feel myself lucky w/ my 2010 Outback 4 w/ CVT. Power's adequate for me and no noticeable, let alone excessive noise from the tranny, either. At 2K RPMs, I'm usually doing around 72 mph on a flat surfaced freeway w/o any vibration at all; 2.5K at 84. Cruise-control gives me great mileage, 32+ on freeway and much smoother up and down hills than my previous Forester's CC. Only complaint is smaller sunroof, but then I had a Forester before and was spoiled by its.

    BTW, my sister, an RN who drives all over NW IN thru all the weather it has to offer, first turned me on to Subarus, and she's now in her third. I live in SoCal, too, and only get to experience its winter handling qualities when I go to the mts., but it really is the best car I've ever driven in snow, including heavy, 12"+ snow. Just make sure you get the winter handling package, as those heated seats and mirrors will really come in handy in and around Erie.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    I doubt downshifting with the paddles will be an issue at all. You do have the CVT, and I am not familiar with that transmission enough to be able to say definitively, but the paddles are electronic controls so the programming should prevent a downshift that will cause damage or excessive wear.

    I used to have a '96 Outback with the 4EAT, and I manually downshifted with that all the time. I had it to 220,000 miles and while it had its share of problems, I never had any problems with the transmission at all.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,818
    Since you asked for advice, here's mine:

    (i) A Subaru is probably a good idea. AWD is what they do, and you are one of the few people who can be said to "need" it. Don't underestimate a good set of snow tires will do for you in a front driver with decent ground clearance, though. AWD with all-season tires t is a travesty, IMO.

    (ii) If money is an issue, look carefully at what you can buy a new Subaru for. Unless you want to buy before winter, there are several options to make a new one more attractive. There is the VIP purchase program, which gets you a new car at (I believe) 2 percent behind invoice, so long as you belong to one of a number of outdoorsy organizations, like the Int'l Mountain Bikea [non-permissible content removed]'n, the American Canoeist whatsit, and a number of others. Including the American [non-permissible content removed]'n for the Advancement of Science, at least temporarily, but I digress...

    Also, there's the Chase Subaru card, which kicks 3% of turnover back to you in the form of $100 "bills" that you can spend on a car or maintenance or parts. I've got two -- one for the missus and one for me -- and they're starting to add up. The limit per card is $500/year.

    Do an Edmunds search for details on these programs.

    (iii) Buy it new. I don't believe you can save money on a used Subaru over a new one. They hold their value, and this is not good news on the used side. On top of that, they are somehwat finicky about maintenance, so once you get past 50k miles or so, you may have to play catch-up on your own nickel.

    It may well be that a gussied-up Limited is a good deal used, but for your garden-variety base models and Premiums, I don't see it. I gave up looking for used Subarus -- and Hondas, and most Toyotas -- years ago, because the savings aren't there.

    Yeah the payment is smaller, but now you're stretching it out to the 8th year of the car's life and have maintenance costs at the same time... no thanks.

    Good luck,
    -Mathias
  • rnmedicrnmedic Member Posts: 3
    "They are somewhat finicky about maintenance..."

    Does this mean Subarus, once past 50K, tend to have things go wrong? Are the engines less durable, or the drive trains, or....

    While Volkswagen might not be the most reliable brand out there, I've only had three occasions to shell out more than $200 at a time for repairs: A timing belt/water pump change, new front struts and replacing a starter motor. All the rest has been maintenance I would have done on any vehicle. I realize every car needs work now and then, but do Subarus need more TLC more often?
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,818
    No, not "things go wrong" type of finicky.

    The 2.5 l boxers of some years were prone to head gasket failure, but I think that's been fixed, or 99% fixed... the new Consumer Reports has them rated very well since '04 or something.

    But they do have timing belts, at lest until very recently, and that's tow of them, and they have to be done. And the water pump while you're at it. I looked at a Legacy once, nice car but the owner was complaining about the high cost of maintenance when I called him about the car. That should have told me something.

    When I got to the car, it was leaking a little oil, why? Not happy with the quote from the dealer, he took it to a mom & pop repair shop, who didn't know to change a couple of seals while they were at it. Since I don't "do" oil drips, I was going to have to basically have the job done over, just because Cletus had decided to save fifty bucks. That was the day I stopped looking at used Subes.

    From your description, you will put 2xx thousand miles on your car over ten years. A new Subie will likely do that, esp. if you maintain it by the book. A Forester can be had, VIP pricing, for $20, and an Ouback for a grand or two more. It won't be the fancy model, but it'll have the important features, the safety stuff, and AWD. If you do your research on used Subaru prices, I think you'll find that on a "per mile" or a "per year" basis, you won't save any money by buying used.

    CNN/Money today has a feature about the "best resale value" cars, and the Outback is on it. They also have an article about the "record high" used-car prices.

    For a real-life example, even if it's a few years old and preachy, look at
    https://www.msu.edu/~steine13/cars.html

    Some cars you buy new, some you buy used.
    Hondas, Subies, and most Toyotas you buy new.

    Cheers -Mathias
  • rangerdan1rangerdan1 Member Posts: 2
    :mad: The "projector" low beam headlights on my 2011 Outback create an unacceptable dangerous condition which in my opinion is a serious design flaw which warrants a factory recall. If I had test driven this vehicle at night, I would not have purchased it. On hilly roads, the area illuminated by the low beams ends too close to the vehicle at a sharp boundary beyond which there is zero illumination. The "blind zone" can be as close as 20 feet away when the vehicle is facing an incline in the road. This condition forces the driver to use the high beams while too close to nearby drivers, both facing and from behind. I took it to the dealer. The service department said they were normal and there was nothing they could do about it.

    Any suggestions? I'm afraid this condition is going to result in an accident.

    Ranger Dan
  • timadamstimadams Member Posts: 294
    Is this your first car with projector headlights? If so, it might well be normal. My wife's Toyota Venza has the same sharp upper cutoff, which is indeed very noticeable on up-and-down roads. It's annoying at times, but is now the standard in auto headlights. I'm fairly certain you can adjust the headlights up, but you risk getting them too high, which will blind oncoming drivers.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Yes, that's normal for projector lights. I agree that it is a sharp cutoff. My '10 Forester is much better than the Legacy/Outback in that regard, but it does not have the same style lights (I'm not sure why they would go with two different illumination modes, but that's for another conversation!).

    The best way to negate that problem, Dan, is to add a set of low beam auxiliary lights to fill in the weak spots on your projectors. You can usually find them fairly compact and in various shapes so that you can mount them discretely on the vehicle.

    If you adjust the projector lamps, you will blind oncoming drivers and get a lot of flashes, as those lights are very bright in their operational range.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • rangerdan1rangerdan1 Member Posts: 2
    Projector headlights..."normal?" Thinking of the visual impairment they impose on the driver as "normal" seems rather like considering the disability caused by macular degeneration (blindness in the center field of vision) as normal. I don't think I can get used to driving at night with a moving curtain of blindness that might be concealing a deer, a pedestrian, or a rock in the road as close as 20 feet away while using the low beams. The area illuminated does seem quite bright, but at a cost to the driver's distance vision that seems insane to me.

    And then there's the impact on nearby drivers. I was following my friend's car last night while I noticed the curtain moving up and down his rear view mirror. He said it was very annoying to him, like I was flashing my brights. Come to think of it, I've had the same experience on the road, both facing and being followed by cars that must have projector headlights.

    What a bogus engineering blunder these things are. Were they only tested on on an airport-flat test track before approval for use in cars? How many people have been killed because of them? How in the world could anybody desire such a driving handicap? What planet am I on??

    The dealer refused to aim them higher. I'm seeking solutions. Anybody? I will not keep this car if I don't find one.
  • timadamstimadams Member Posts: 294
    edited November 2010
    You might want to have an independent shop check your headlight alignment. Maybe your lights can be safely raised a bit and still not blind oncoming drivers. I doubt they can be raised much, though, and if you get them too high be prepared for lots of oncoming drivers flashing their high beams at you. You will still have the sharp cutoff. which will be apparent on up and down roads.

    There are also aftermarket bulbs and headlight upgrades. Perhaps some of these will make it better for you. I can't recommend any, but I know they are out there.

    If you decide to not keep your car, I'd say you better be prepared to test drive a LOT of cars at night, and also be prepared to compromise in other ways, because almost all new cars have projector headlights with a sharp upper cutoff. That is the new norm, as in "normal". If you do a quick internet search, you will see lots of people having the same complaint with lots of different brands and models. Consumer Reports includes a sentence or two on headlights in each car review, so you might want to start there.

    No matter what you do, don't make your improvement at the cost of oncoming drivers. I hate when an oncoming car has its headlights or foglights aimed too high, blinding me.
  • danielldaniell Member Posts: 128
    Among the mainstream family cars, only the Nissan Altima and Honda Accord still have non-projector headlights. The rest (Camry, Sonata etc., most if not all European cars) have projectors.

    Consumer Reports routinely slams projector headlights for the sharp cutoff. However, they focus the light much better and are being universally adopted.

    I would agree that after-market ugrades are the best solution.
  • frenchguy007frenchguy007 Member Posts: 28
    edited November 2010
    It seems that Subaru Canada cannot get a reasonable price and availability for winter tires and rims. They quoted me close to $1,700.00 out the door (taxes in). Four tires were $1200 plus taxes. Of course they do not have stock so it is a wait. I am so disappointed in this car, so many steps back from my '08 Altima, let's see the list again.

    lousy bluetooth system
    No rear HVAC ducts
    No rear reading lights
    No courtesy headlights when you stop and leave the car at night (5 minute delay)
    No auto door locks
    Poor A/C system
    Front seats have no support and are uncomfortable
    Winter tires are hard to get in November in Canada!
    No one at the dealer or at Subaru Canada can differentiate the 3.6R model from the turbo, constantly being told that parts are available but end up being for the Turbo model that is not the same
    Satellite antenna is an aftermarket job glued to the inside front windshield (on a $35K car!)
    Car HVAC constantly reverts to recirculating air, makes the windows all humid.
    Emergency hazards are always being hit because of placement near the shifter

    Luckily this is a lease and I have less than two years left on it. Cannot wait to get rid of this thing, it is causing me so much grief, buyers beware!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm a bit puzzled - did you test drive it?

    Most of those things should have been readily apparent.

    The one I have most trouble with is the "Front seats have no support and are uncomfortable". That should have been obvious.

    For the next car ask for a longer test drive, some dealers will even let you keep a car overnight. Best of luck.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Winter tires are hard to get in November in Canada!

    Shocking!! Winter tires are already hard to get in New England and the snow hasn't even started.

    Why did you go to the dealer? Did you really expect them to have a good price on tires? Especially snow tires - in Canada - in November??

    If I were you, I'd check out tirerack or discounttire for options.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    edited November 2010
    If I were you, I'd check out tirerack or discounttire for options.

    I second that. I know you're just leasing, but take a little ownership. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • frenchguy007frenchguy007 Member Posts: 28
    I ended up at an aftermarket tuner shop for the tires. This is a better option than paying customs brokerage charges and freight on US sold tires for Canada. As for the other stuff, I should have done a longer test drive, as they say; it's all in the details.

    In my opinion Subaru needs to sweat the small stuff a little more.

    One final note, once I actually took possession of the car (and after my test drive) the sales manager said to me, " when you first start the car make sure you let it idle for 60 seconds before doing anything". According to him the boxer engine needs that time to properly build oil pressure and therefore lubricate the engine properly.

    A cold start on my car has the engine revving at 2,000rpm for the first minute, sounds like a racing engine! It worries me about the longevity.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    I own a 2010 OB LTD that I've had just over 1 yr. Got a nice surprise in the mail today. 2 $25 vouchers from SOA valid until 11/2014 for products or services at a Subaru dealer. This is for my patience & cooperation with the recalls of the last several months. Much appreciated!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Now I'm bummed my 2009 Subaru has been trouble-free, LOL.

    Happy Holidays!
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    Yeah - so WAS mine, the best car I've owned in 40 years. Unfortunately it got totalled tonight on my way home from work (Annapolis) at the route 2/4 intersection. I stopped at a long line of stopped cars for the red light, but the young driver behind me in an Impala never slowed down and hit me going "at least 60" according to him. He admitted he was entirely at fault and did the right thing checking on me and the driver of the jeep into which my 09 Outback was driven by the impact.

    The Outback did exactly what it was designed to do - crumple and sacrifice itself to save me. I'm banged up and sore, but can't imagine what would have happened if I got hit from the rear while stopped with one of the cars I drove as a kid. My 69 VW? Yikes.

    Now I've got to decide on a replacement. I drive 110 miles a day and hypermiling my Outback, got 29.8 mpg overall since new. I like subarus but not the new ones and the 09s hold their value too well to buy used. Plus I'd never find one as nice or as cared for as meticulously as I did mine. That's about the lowest fuel economy I can accept for this much driving. I also have to decide on a new safe car or a less safe junker that I won't care about - because with this route, its only a matter of "when", not "if" you get in an accident, since I see them every day with a fatality about once every two to three weeks. My insurance agent tells me that MD route 2/4 is in the highest rating class for accidents and fatalities.

    I just bought an extended 5/100K warranty about 6 weeks ago from Don at Mastria - I guess I have to call & try to get a partial refund.

    The only lesson right now: don't fall in love with your perfect car, because it can be gone in an instant.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    So sorry to hear of your accident, but glad you're OK. Just curious. Why don't you like the new Subarus? This is my 3rd (2010 OB LTD). Had 2 Foresters previously, but didn't like the redesign. So I looked at the new Outbacks. Wasn't wild about the looks, but all else was great, including MPG with CVT. Suggest you take a test drive of both the Forester & OB before you scratch Subaru off your list.
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