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Comments
I currently drive a 2010 Legacy LTD with CVT and while I'm mostly very happy with it overall, I keep wondering about the 3.6 LTD next time and what the advantages might really be.
Worse mileage I'm sure, but is the heft/feeling of the 6 that much better? Is it worth losing the great mileage on the CVT for the different in feeling/performance in the 6? Is the car that much smoother on the highway? Less vibration? What are the real advantages and disadvantages of the six?
Thanks.
I am doubly peeved at Subaru for doing this stupid move just for Canadian cars. Talk about poor planning.
Thanks for letting me know.
- The steering in the Outback is hard. I thought it was only mine, after so many web induced preconceptions. This steering is never going to have a shaking issue this hard. It looks like Subaru, concerned after the shake complains worked it that way to avoid the noise. After 1 week, I even had to go to the dealer to try another one, but is the same. So no worries about shaking, but coming from the Tribeca you will feel like in the new car no sporting steering (direction wise) will be found. To be more precise, the Tribeca is a marvel when you address the highway curves. You feel you can take any curve over 100 mph. Forget about that in the Outback. Car and Driver refer to it when the first reviewed the car, to use their words: Artificially heavy steering just off-center.
- The pump trips will make you happy. I have been averaging 25.2 mpg in 60% highway. That is more than 460 miles per tank, that in my case is over 6 days between fill ups. The Tribeca was 19.5 mpg, or 300 per fill up (4 days). Maybe for some people the act of filling the car is smooth, but in Minnesota, those 13 to 14 more fill ups per winter are good to avoid. They wear you down.
- I paid Subaru VIP, that is, invoice.
- Inside the main difference again the OB are the sound system (I had the premium sound before) and the automatic passenger seat (OB is manual).
- In favor of the OB, the back seat is easier to in & out. I like the wireless link mirror (the OB had the link on the visor). Also, the OB came with the rubber tray in the back. I use the parking brake a lot, and it takes to get use to the new, electronic one (nothing to be concerned other than no one but you knows where it is, so explain to wife or friends when you lend it).
- The Tribeca never gave me issues with the transmission, but I am amaze at the easyness of the CVT. Of course the car is slower (from 0-60), but in highway I go 50-80 quick enough as to be afraid of cops.
- My estimated costs are going to be down at least by $700 a year, because uses less fuel and oil. Marginally, the 17 tires will be at least $300 cheaper when time to change comes. Also the resale can be easier and maybe better residual.
- I plan to keep the car six years. My biggest gripe is the fact that the original hitch (to be used just to carry bikes) is close to $600 installed. I still have months to decide.
All in all, is my 4th Subaru, and I am happy with it. Is a notch down in my own personal preference to the Tribeca, but I couldn't keep it for personal (marriage) issues.
Regarding the hitch, I strongly recommend aftermarket. E-trailer.com has a variety of high-quality hitches for under $200 (class II or III) and they are a breeze to install. Even having a shop do it, you'll likely save close to 50% versus the price you estimated above.
1. To buy the car without the hub and replace the stereo with a unit from a 3rd party provider like Crutchfield.
2. To buy the car without the hub and try to add the USB interface to the standard stereo myself.
The bad part about #1 is that I will lose steering wheel controls. About #2, I have no idea whether this is doable and how easy and cheap it is to do it well. Do you know?
thanks much!
I don't have an Outback, but I recently added an iPod interface to my '06 Honda CR-V. The cost of the device, including professional installation, was $240. It allows me to control my iPod (a 4th generation Touch) using my car stereo controls, displays song titles on my factory-installed Honda stereo, charges the iPod & does not interfere with my steering wheel controls. The sound quality equals that of CDs played on my Honda stereo.
I've had it for just a couple of weeks, but I'm pleased with it. To see if this is available for your Subaru, go to www.usaspec.com.
Hope this helps.
this occurs even with traction control off
I'm an RN, and recently transferred from CCU to home health; instead of driving to work three days a week and leaving the car in a parking ramp for 13 hours, I'll be driving from patient to patient five days a week. I live in northwestern PA, right along Lake Erie, so there's 4-5 months of winter.
Right now I drive a 2003 Volkswagen Jetta wagon TDI, and while the fuel economy is still pretty good at 206,000 miles, the winter handling is pretty, well.... awful. I'm looking for a vehicle that an handle a foot or so of snow and mud during the spring (some of my patients are in rural areas). Many of the other guys at the fire department have four wheel drive pickups, but I'll be driving 50-80 miles a day and feeding an F150 just isn't in my budget.
What's it like having an Outback? Should I look at a Forester instead, or is there some other vehicle that might make sense for me? I've considered a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, if for no other reason than it's built in Toledo. This time around I'd like to deal with an American car company, or buy a foreign model that's built in the states. Thanks for the advice!
The back seat room is almost the same for the 2009 and later Forester and 2010-2011 Outback. There is an advantage to choosing the 2011 Forester (without turbo) which has Subaru's new, sturdier and easier to service engine. The Outback does not yet have the new engine. The Forester's MPG won't match your TDI's, but snow drifts won't matter.
The 2010-2011 Outback with its CVT automatic will have somewhat better MPG than the Forester, but a higher purchase price. The Forester does not lean as much in curves.
6 cylinder Outbacks (all automatic) have closer to 55%/45%.
More recent models which have traction control are much BETTER in snow than the older ones which had a problem with left-to-right front wheel slip.
My garage is on an always not-plowed alley: My 2010 (and 2005 VDC) do better in snow drifts than my 1997. Several of my past VW and Audi models with AWD had insufficient ground clearance for this alley.
Bob
Which leads me to my next question. With my wife changing jobs, I might have to go with a gently used Subaru instead of new. Was there a model year that was particularly good for Foresters or Outbacks? A model year to avoid? A particular trim level to look for, or keep away from?
My wife's vehicle, a Honda Pilot, has heated leather seats and a sunroof, which I've come to love -- though at opposite times of the year. Thanks again!
You might want to give priority to models with stability control (which includes traction control). That will help in situations that need maximum traction and provide additional safety in winter conditions. The earliest model with it is labeled "VDC" on one model of the 2005 6 cylinder Outback. Four cylinder Outback models got stability control later and I believe Forester stability control started in 2009. The Forester is made in Japan and the Outback is assembled in Indiana which may affect your choice. I suspect the Japanese made models are slightly more reliable.
If you do get a 2005, some of them have a problem with the wiring harness cracking by the tailgate causing the tailights to go out (it's an easy fix if you know the cause!) and the rear wheel bearings go out around 60K (Subaru extended the warranty on this).
Oh the cat goes out early too, but by gov't law, they have to replace it up to 80K or so.
Bob
Fuel economy is very slightly better in the Outback than the Forester. I drive all highway 50-60 mpg with less than 2% city driving. My calculated average for the first 38K miles is 29.7 mpg. The trip odometer is close, but very slightly optimistic.
I have gotten as high as 33 and 34 mpg on long trips at steady speed with pure gas (not E10) and my low was 25 in the snow. When I drive my wife's Forester the same way - hypermiling techniques, coasting to stops and not using the brakes, I get about 0.5 to 1 mpg less - probably due to increased wind resistance. Most people get lower mpg than I do.
Don't test drive one in unfamiliar territory during the deer rut at dusk. I hit a deer with a beautiful certified LLBean Outback on a test drive.
But don't abandon Subaru because of the defective OB which probably won't be truly fixed until the next full re-design unless they get really lucky with the next TSB.
The Forester is also a great car, especially in the XT (turbo) configuration. Heavily updated this year for 2011 it has many improvements including creature comforts such as a better audio system which has been traditionally been a weak point of the car, it is greatly improved. It has 8.9" of ground clearance in the XT version and a bulletproof and incomparable full-time AWD system. Highly worth a look. I am considering it to replace my old OB.
If you are or would consider a slightly larger vehicle you could do no better than the 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee, new from the ground up. I have investigated this new vehicle thoroughly now for several months and have driven no fewer than six! You have the option of a 6 cylinder Pentastar engine (more frugal and brand new this year) or the venerable but effective HEMI which has been repeatedly on the Ward's Ten Best Engines list. If you pull a trailer, get the HEMI. If you enjoy good acceleration, get the HEMI. The quality, fit and manufacture (in Detroit at the North Jefferson Assembly Plant and you can't get much more unadulterated American that than!), the vehicle is truly impressive. It is VERY quiet at highway speeds (literally as quiet as the Rolls-Royce Ghost at highway speeds, has unparalleled off-road and snow capabilities, superb audio system and Garmin NAV. The interior has fancy Italian touches for a bit of class and it is definitely a pleasant place to spend time in.
The downside is that there is a fairly steep purchase price a higher gas bills compared to the Forester but you also have a better dealer network and the legendary Jeep brand for off-road and snow-handling prowess.
And one more thing: don't be put off by the past poor reliability of Jeeps. This new 2011 JGC is a brand new bag and in no way comparable to Jeeps of yesteryear!
You will do yourself a disservice if you fail to consider the new Jeep GC.
That is all I have to say. Enjoy your new Forester XT or Jeep Grand, whichever you buy.
Bob
To recommend such a car with a clear propensity to shake in many individual cars (not all) is both irresponsible and arrogant. How would you like to buy a car someone had strongly recommenced only to be saddled with a shaker and all its attendant miseries? I think the Golden Rule should apply here.
As for the Jeep Grand Cherokee, although it is new (and that is the whole point - it is entirely new from the ground up) there are exactly no reports of anything save rare minor glitches and there are certainly no frequent reports of serious issues like shaking steering wheels in multiple cars on multiple websites by multiple people. Its past reliability issues are irrelevant and despite them it does have a strong cult following, like the OB used to have until reliability issues reared their ugly heads.
And if you think that what you are calling "some road vibration in the steering wheel at 75 mph" is normal (apparently lots of OB salesmen say the same thing despite the fact their service departments have received multiple TSBs in a futile attempt to mask the problem, you are in denial. Unwittingly, you are giving a perfect description of the shaker problem although yours may not be as noticeable as others at this point.
Look, don't misunderstand me. I have been a Subaru OB fan for a lot longer than most on this board, having driven the very same 1997 (in service 13 December 1996) for 14 straight years this coming December so I surely don't call a spade a spade for nothing. It sickens me that a brand new car is prone to a real problem. I wanted one to replace my elderly OB but I won't run the risk of picking up one that has a problem I would detest and could not get fixed and I ain't about to spend literally months jumping through Subaru hoops while they try to mask my issue.
Dump the shaking OB, buy the JGC. You'll be glad you did and that advice to other potential buyers of SUVs is bound to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Have a nice day, now.
Generally the head gaskets of model years 2002 and prior were an issue, but you're likely to buy newer than that anyway. The H6 models never had that issue.
What else? 2002 WRX manual transmissions were a bit fragile. Wheel bearings on Imprezas prior to 2002 and Foresters prior to 2003.
For any used Subaru, turn off the radio and find a big, empty parking lot. Drive in a tight figure-8 pattern on dry pavement, open the windows and listen. It should be smooth in all directions.
If you do not get VDC, the 2005 through 2009 Outbacks had limited slip rear axles, which enhances their 'go' from two drive wheels (one front, one rear) to three.
In terms of interior passenger room, they are MUCH smaller than the 2009+ Forester or the 2010+ Outback, but they have more cargo space than the new Forester. If you consider the Forester, 2009+ (the early 2009 models are nearing three years old now) have VDC and better ground clearance than earlier Foresters or 2005-2009 Outbacks.
Again, with a good set of winter tires, any of them will get you where you need to go... and back! I strongly recommend making sure you have the normal emergency winter supplies, along with a small shovel and a nice recovery strap, as you never know when you'll need to pull others out of the ditch.
Now, how about someone getting back to me about my previously expressed concerns over downshifting with the paddles, as I frequently do when the arrows allow it. Any possibility of this wearing out the tranny? I'm "sensitive" to this issue because the 4-speed auto on my '03 Forester went bad by 90K miles, which was as disappointing as it was surprising, especially since I'm a pretty conservative driver.
BTW, my sister, an RN who drives all over NW IN thru all the weather it has to offer, first turned me on to Subarus, and she's now in her third. I live in SoCal, too, and only get to experience its winter handling qualities when I go to the mts., but it really is the best car I've ever driven in snow, including heavy, 12"+ snow. Just make sure you get the winter handling package, as those heated seats and mirrors will really come in handy in and around Erie.
I used to have a '96 Outback with the 4EAT, and I manually downshifted with that all the time. I had it to 220,000 miles and while it had its share of problems, I never had any problems with the transmission at all.
(i) A Subaru is probably a good idea. AWD is what they do, and you are one of the few people who can be said to "need" it. Don't underestimate a good set of snow tires will do for you in a front driver with decent ground clearance, though. AWD with all-season tires t is a travesty, IMO.
(ii) If money is an issue, look carefully at what you can buy a new Subaru for. Unless you want to buy before winter, there are several options to make a new one more attractive. There is the VIP purchase program, which gets you a new car at (I believe) 2 percent behind invoice, so long as you belong to one of a number of outdoorsy organizations, like the Int'l Mountain Bikea [non-permissible content removed]'n, the American Canoeist whatsit, and a number of others. Including the American [non-permissible content removed]'n for the Advancement of Science, at least temporarily, but I digress...
Also, there's the Chase Subaru card, which kicks 3% of turnover back to you in the form of $100 "bills" that you can spend on a car or maintenance or parts. I've got two -- one for the missus and one for me -- and they're starting to add up. The limit per card is $500/year.
Do an Edmunds search for details on these programs.
(iii) Buy it new. I don't believe you can save money on a used Subaru over a new one. They hold their value, and this is not good news on the used side. On top of that, they are somehwat finicky about maintenance, so once you get past 50k miles or so, you may have to play catch-up on your own nickel.
It may well be that a gussied-up Limited is a good deal used, but for your garden-variety base models and Premiums, I don't see it. I gave up looking for used Subarus -- and Hondas, and most Toyotas -- years ago, because the savings aren't there.
Yeah the payment is smaller, but now you're stretching it out to the 8th year of the car's life and have maintenance costs at the same time... no thanks.
Good luck,
-Mathias
Does this mean Subarus, once past 50K, tend to have things go wrong? Are the engines less durable, or the drive trains, or....
While Volkswagen might not be the most reliable brand out there, I've only had three occasions to shell out more than $200 at a time for repairs: A timing belt/water pump change, new front struts and replacing a starter motor. All the rest has been maintenance I would have done on any vehicle. I realize every car needs work now and then, but do Subarus need more TLC more often?
The 2.5 l boxers of some years were prone to head gasket failure, but I think that's been fixed, or 99% fixed... the new Consumer Reports has them rated very well since '04 or something.
But they do have timing belts, at lest until very recently, and that's tow of them, and they have to be done. And the water pump while you're at it. I looked at a Legacy once, nice car but the owner was complaining about the high cost of maintenance when I called him about the car. That should have told me something.
When I got to the car, it was leaking a little oil, why? Not happy with the quote from the dealer, he took it to a mom & pop repair shop, who didn't know to change a couple of seals while they were at it. Since I don't "do" oil drips, I was going to have to basically have the job done over, just because Cletus had decided to save fifty bucks. That was the day I stopped looking at used Subes.
From your description, you will put 2xx thousand miles on your car over ten years. A new Subie will likely do that, esp. if you maintain it by the book. A Forester can be had, VIP pricing, for $20, and an Ouback for a grand or two more. It won't be the fancy model, but it'll have the important features, the safety stuff, and AWD. If you do your research on used Subaru prices, I think you'll find that on a "per mile" or a "per year" basis, you won't save any money by buying used.
CNN/Money today has a feature about the "best resale value" cars, and the Outback is on it. They also have an article about the "record high" used-car prices.
For a real-life example, even if it's a few years old and preachy, look at
https://www.msu.edu/~steine13/cars.html
Some cars you buy new, some you buy used.
Hondas, Subies, and most Toyotas you buy new.
Cheers -Mathias
Any suggestions? I'm afraid this condition is going to result in an accident.
Ranger Dan
The best way to negate that problem, Dan, is to add a set of low beam auxiliary lights to fill in the weak spots on your projectors. You can usually find them fairly compact and in various shapes so that you can mount them discretely on the vehicle.
If you adjust the projector lamps, you will blind oncoming drivers and get a lot of flashes, as those lights are very bright in their operational range.
And then there's the impact on nearby drivers. I was following my friend's car last night while I noticed the curtain moving up and down his rear view mirror. He said it was very annoying to him, like I was flashing my brights. Come to think of it, I've had the same experience on the road, both facing and being followed by cars that must have projector headlights.
What a bogus engineering blunder these things are. Were they only tested on on an airport-flat test track before approval for use in cars? How many people have been killed because of them? How in the world could anybody desire such a driving handicap? What planet am I on??
The dealer refused to aim them higher. I'm seeking solutions. Anybody? I will not keep this car if I don't find one.
There are also aftermarket bulbs and headlight upgrades. Perhaps some of these will make it better for you. I can't recommend any, but I know they are out there.
If you decide to not keep your car, I'd say you better be prepared to test drive a LOT of cars at night, and also be prepared to compromise in other ways, because almost all new cars have projector headlights with a sharp upper cutoff. That is the new norm, as in "normal". If you do a quick internet search, you will see lots of people having the same complaint with lots of different brands and models. Consumer Reports includes a sentence or two on headlights in each car review, so you might want to start there.
No matter what you do, don't make your improvement at the cost of oncoming drivers. I hate when an oncoming car has its headlights or foglights aimed too high, blinding me.
Consumer Reports routinely slams projector headlights for the sharp cutoff. However, they focus the light much better and are being universally adopted.
I would agree that after-market ugrades are the best solution.
lousy bluetooth system
No rear HVAC ducts
No rear reading lights
No courtesy headlights when you stop and leave the car at night (5 minute delay)
No auto door locks
Poor A/C system
Front seats have no support and are uncomfortable
Winter tires are hard to get in November in Canada!
No one at the dealer or at Subaru Canada can differentiate the 3.6R model from the turbo, constantly being told that parts are available but end up being for the Turbo model that is not the same
Satellite antenna is an aftermarket job glued to the inside front windshield (on a $35K car!)
Car HVAC constantly reverts to recirculating air, makes the windows all humid.
Emergency hazards are always being hit because of placement near the shifter
Luckily this is a lease and I have less than two years left on it. Cannot wait to get rid of this thing, it is causing me so much grief, buyers beware!
Most of those things should have been readily apparent.
The one I have most trouble with is the "Front seats have no support and are uncomfortable". That should have been obvious.
For the next car ask for a longer test drive, some dealers will even let you keep a car overnight. Best of luck.
Shocking!! Winter tires are already hard to get in New England and the snow hasn't even started.
Why did you go to the dealer? Did you really expect them to have a good price on tires? Especially snow tires - in Canada - in November??
If I were you, I'd check out tirerack or discounttire for options.
I second that. I know you're just leasing, but take a little ownership. :sick:
In my opinion Subaru needs to sweat the small stuff a little more.
One final note, once I actually took possession of the car (and after my test drive) the sales manager said to me, " when you first start the car make sure you let it idle for 60 seconds before doing anything". According to him the boxer engine needs that time to properly build oil pressure and therefore lubricate the engine properly.
A cold start on my car has the engine revving at 2,000rpm for the first minute, sounds like a racing engine! It worries me about the longevity.
Happy Holidays!
The Outback did exactly what it was designed to do - crumple and sacrifice itself to save me. I'm banged up and sore, but can't imagine what would have happened if I got hit from the rear while stopped with one of the cars I drove as a kid. My 69 VW? Yikes.
Now I've got to decide on a replacement. I drive 110 miles a day and hypermiling my Outback, got 29.8 mpg overall since new. I like subarus but not the new ones and the 09s hold their value too well to buy used. Plus I'd never find one as nice or as cared for as meticulously as I did mine. That's about the lowest fuel economy I can accept for this much driving. I also have to decide on a new safe car or a less safe junker that I won't care about - because with this route, its only a matter of "when", not "if" you get in an accident, since I see them every day with a fatality about once every two to three weeks. My insurance agent tells me that MD route 2/4 is in the highest rating class for accidents and fatalities.
I just bought an extended 5/100K warranty about 6 weeks ago from Don at Mastria - I guess I have to call & try to get a partial refund.
The only lesson right now: don't fall in love with your perfect car, because it can be gone in an instant.