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Comments
Plus you'll get a better deal with them trying to get rid of the 09's as you stated.
I had a 1998 Forester, first year, and it was great over the 9 years I had it. So I did it again - and got a 2009, first year for gen 3. So far so good.
The 2005 Legacy did have a not-so-great crash test score for side impacts, and then the 2006 was quickly revised and scored a lot better. That's rare, though, I don't think that had happened with a Subaru before. Plus I'm sure they learned the lesson and did more testing this time.
A small change I think is likely is the break-away mirrors. That's something they can upgrade easily and people are complaining about it.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f1e0b3f/8
It is completely numb on center, so much so that it was a chore to drive on a winding back road. There was also a bit of faith required when turning at a stop sign because I was never quite sure where the car was going to head until I stepped on the gas. On the freeway it's not nearly as noticeable, but once I became aware of it I was not enamored with the freeway handling either. The steering is so disconnected compared to the Forester that I'm amazed that the Forester and Outback are made by the same company.
The Outback's ride is significantly better than the Forester. Quieter, smoother and more controlled. I do like the more upright cabin on the Forester better than the Outback. It feels larger and more airy to me. Even so, I'd be buying an Outback because of the better ride, transmission and fuel economy, but the disconnected steering is not something I'm be willing to live with and am dropping it from my list of possibilities. Who knows, maybe they'll fix it next year.
I had the same reaction to the Outbacks and Forester I drove. I wouldn't quite call the Outback steering lousy, but I thought I was in an old Buick when generous steering input was rewarded by a near rollover feeling. I suspect most current Subaru owners will agree, but that does not necessarily mean the Outback won't sell to others who are used to driving Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet, Ford and Mercury. I felt like I was at the helm of my old cabin cruiser!
Outside the showroom windows you could see several 2005/2006 era Legacies. How the Japanese mid-size car segment has fallen, styling wise, in the last year or two. I also own an Acura TSX. When I saw the new TSX, I felt so sorry for that car (and that brand, TL, anyone?). Subaru has trumped Acura with this latest effort.
Or is this all just symptomatic of the atrocious taste of the American car buying public? These same companies don't seem to be afflicting the rest of the world with these monstrosities (don't get me started on the new Outback...)
I almost did on Saturday. Took the Miata for an oil change, and the Subaru dealer was just down the street. I thought it would be quick, but they took nearly a whole hour. If I had known I would have gone and driven the Outback.
Bummer that they didn't tell me it would take that long.
I got 2 free oil changes from that dealer but it's hardly worth it. Took 2 hours door to door to complete the task. I can change my own oil in 15 minutes and never leave home.
I know what you're saying, though. Japanese nameplate styling peaked about a generation ago. The prior TSX looks better. Heck, all prior Acuras look better minus that gigantic Transformers shield in the front. The Mazda6 is overdone, too, in fact I'll generalize and say the same thing about the whole Mazda lineup, especially with the big smiley face on all of them now (I got an 08 Miata and managed to avoid the new corporate grille). The new Fit is overdone, too. The Scion xD lost its character and gained a big blind spot. Let's not even mention the new Galant.
Japanese styling peaked and has been dropping for the past few years.
Oddly the Forester is an exception - I think the 2009 is the best looking yet.
http://www.jconline.com/article/20090803/NEWS09/90803015
• Sales of the Legacy line shot up by 34 percent to 2,340 units.
• Sales of the Outback line, which includes the Legacy wagon, increased by 33 percent, to 4,971 units.
• Sales of the Tribeca dropped by 10 percent, to 707 vehicles.
Among Subaru's Japanese-made models, sales of the Impreza line grew by 41 percent, to 6,247 units; while sales of the Forester line increased by 36 percent, to 7,574 units.
Forester still kicking asphalt but of course the newbies' availability is still improving.
The Impreza is the real surprise - it's doing extremely well. In the past the Forester outsold the Impreza 2 to 1, and the Outback outsold the Forester. That was the case from 1998 all the way up to 2008 IIRC.
Bob
All you have to do is go any of the Edmunds blogs, and you'll see what I mean. Almost anything that is new gets slammed and trashed. It's useless to argue with these folks, so I ignore them.
So maybe most of the carmakers really do know what they're doing, most of the time.
Bob
I have commented that the market other than present Subaru owners may even prefer the soft ride of the new models. Of course that is domestic marque drivers only.
FHI Losing Money
Here are some take-away quotes, e.g.,
"Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., the Japanese maker of Subaru vehicles, yesterday posted a net loss of 19.3 billion yen (US$203 million) for the first quarter and forecast zero growth in U.S. sales this year."
and
"The company, known for its compact Forester SUV and Impreza car, said its earnings suffered from a lack of new models, a stronger yen and weaker demand in major markets including emerging economies such as Russia."
wilbur
As for not liking anything new, I respectfully disagree. When the new 2005/6 models came out, I lusted after those cars, but my '98 showed no signs of giving up. I was seriously gonna go the new Legacy GT wagon route when the old one gave out. That was the plan. But no more.
From where I sit, from the mid 90's on, they just got better and better. This last go round, something broke (in my mind). Like the engineers are all hiding in a corner some where while marketing calls all the shots.
Of course, that seems to be selling, so if moving product is your only criteria for 'goodness', then I guess it's good for Subaru (but I've gotta be selfish here, I want a Subaru that's good for ME). Hence my wondering about the taste of the American market, since none of these companies seem to be doing this to most of the rest of the world.
Honda was first down this road with the new Accord (although, while bigger than I'd prefer, I wouldn't call it ugly). Now Mazda has capitulated (Toyota was always there). Perhaps it's time for the Koreans to shine, they've been going from strength to strength recently.
Sad, really, that's all. Or maybe I'm just a sentimental old fool. But from here on out I'm afraid it's the used market for me.
BTW, still think of Ford when they introduced the dowdy Five Hundred, opposite the Chrysler 300, saying the 500 would stand the test of time better. Not so. It looks even more ridiculous only five years later. Fail! The 300 is old hat, but not dowdy. It never will be.
No new models? Hello? Forester was new. Impreze was semi-new and updated.
Plus now they have a new Legacy and Outback.
Then they talk about Russia? Japan is the #1 market and USA is #2. Those are the markets that matter.
Below is a write-up from Joe Spitz at cars101.com re. the July sales:
"8/3 July sales total 21,839 up 34%. Cash for Clunkers sells cars for everyone, and 'end of model year' rebates and low rates helps. Subaru is up 34% over July 08s total of 16,271 for a strong 4% YTD gain (July 09- July 08). July 09 totals - Outback 4972, Forester 7574, Impreza 6247, Legacy 2340, Tribeca 707.
The Legacy (+34%) and Impreza (+41%) were clearly helped by big rebates and 0% financing. The '10 Outback CUV has been successful though folks who preferred the '09 station wagon version quickly picked off remaining inventory (Outback +33%) with the help of some nice 'end of model year' rebates of course. The '10 Forester Premium's new power driver seat has folks liking the car even more but all models are strongly popular. Tribeca? -10% from 788 July 08 and -44% YTD, Yes there will be a 2010 Tribeca 7 passenger but why and I still suggest a TriBaja pick-up version to replace the late Baja."
July was an odd month so we need to see how the next quarter goes before drawing any conclusions about the re-designed Legacy and Outback. One thing that I am very worried about though is the overlap in Subaru's lineup when it comes to the Forester, Outback, and Tribeca. The Tribeca, for all intents and purposes, is dead; however, the Forester definitely ate into Outback sales in 2008 and 2009 (take a look at cars101 and the relative sales history for the two vehicles after the Forester was re-designed). Let's see how Outback sales are after the 2009s are long gone and the 2010s are on the lots in volume. I suspect that sales will be a bit disappointing because the re-designed Outback is more CUV/SUVish, a domain where the Forester resides. Also, the Forester is a cheaper option for a car that is pretty close to the size of the Outback.
wilbur
Plus, 170hp from a 2.5l is competitive, even without DOHC or variable valve timing.
Plus boxers have a characteristic sound. You may not tell a difference with an in-line four from Nissan, Honda, Toyota, or Mazda, but you'll hear the distinctive boxer from a block away.
Pop the hood, especially next to a Mazda6. I just checked one out while getting an oil change in my Miata.
Look closely at the location of the engine - the Subaru's entire engine lies below the top of the tire, allowing a low center of gravity. I believe both spark plugs lie aft of the front axle, too, so really it's a front-midship engine layout.
Now hop over to the Mazda6. Aye, what a train wreck. The entire block lies ahead of the front axle. And way up high, much of it above the top of the front tires. Having all the weight in front of the axle like that makes it harder for the car to turn in. There's more inertia preventing it from feeling nimble, and of course a very nose heavy, unbalanced car.
I don't have specifics but I bet the Mazda6' weight distribution is something like 62/38, while a typical Subaru is closer to 55/45. Much, much better balance.
To be fair the one in a showroom was a V6, but I doubt the 4 banger is much better, maybe 60/40.
Even if you ignore the position of the engine, neither the Accord nor the Mazda6 use the latest Direct Injection technology (Mazda does in the turbo MazdaSpeed3 though), so arguably those designs are dated as well.
But ... I still can't make up my mind between a '10 Outback or a leftover '09 Forester. :confuse:
BMW's 2.5I engine, equiped with DOHC and variable valve timing, delivers 184 HP and 175 ft-lbs. So clearly there's potential room for improvement.
Back in the 1960s Honda made a 6-cylinder 250cc racing engine, and a 5-cylinder 125cc racing engine for their GP mototorcycles. They put out an incredible amount of horsepower for their displacement. Most other bikes of that era used single or twin cylinder engines in those displacement classes.
Bob
At that price, get a loaded-to-the-gills H6 Limited model for less than a subcompact BMW 1 series with that 2.5l, and indeed you'll get the double-AVCS that is more appropriate for that price level.
Having said that, like Subaru, BMW lies their I-6 engines longitudinally, so they're not sitting on top, way up high, like the transverse designs used by Honda and Mazda.
The Miata is a notable exception - it has an in-line four that is laid out longitudinally, with 3 of the 4 spark plugs behind the front axle for 52/48 balance. Proof that Mazda knows that's the best layout for a sports car, while the Mazda6 has other goals and being sporty isn't really a priority.
Also, as mentioned above, BMW uses boxer engines in their motorcycles. It's rather humorous to read the press materials about those engines and how great that layout is. BMW's own words.
I believe you intended to say a six cylinder may have the capability to produce more output than a four of the same displacement. The newest and most efficient engine from Toyota is a large four as in the Venza. Now that fuel economy is a dominant requirement, hp per cubic inch takes a back seat.
Perhaps the new measurement should be sport per gallon?
Bob
Look again. The entire engine is in front of the axle (the front diff / transmission is attached to the rear of the engine). One of the reasons that Subarus have longer than "normal" front overhangs. Granted, an H4 is a very short engine fore and aft.
A Subaru boxer is positioned the same as a Porsche 911, but at the opposite end. A Subaru is just a 911 running in reverse. :P
Another thing about that BMW engine - it requires premium fuel, the Subaru doesn't. I bet the 2.5l engines with higher output also require premium.
I'm sure it did ... when you left the store with new ones, you put the bag in the passenger compartment. :P
Funny thing was the easy way to change the plugs was from underneath the car.
So there is a new question: Do we want to wait another year to see if the diesel of CVT or both make their way into the 2011 Forester?
Actually, I after re-reading the Dec 08 review of the prototype Diesel Forester, I suspect that the increased cost & the slow acceleration Diesel reportedly has would I think I spring for the gas model.
I found a picture of the European Spec Outback and they have roof rails similar to the 2005 Legacy wagon, which I would much prefer. If anyone knows the width between the cross bars on the 2010, please post here so I can make informed decisions. If I am not the only one disappointed with this roof rack, please post. I hope there are enough of us that SOA might consider making the European roof rails an option here as well.
Thanks.
--Jay
Bob
What I definitely do no like is the bulk associated with the side rails on the new design. It looks awkward (so it fits the rest of the car nicely!).
Well said. That's another reason to get the Forester instead. I'm glad I don't need to trade this year. For those who need a new Outback class vehicle now there are the 2009 leftovers at advantageous prices. Of course back seat passengers would prefer the 2010 and those with long commutes might need more mpg of the 2010s.
The Legacy I drove was steel silver in color. I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of room inside the car - it was downright spacious. I'm six feet tall and, as I had learned from various reviews, I was easily able to sit behind the driver's seat after I had adjusted it for my comfort. The trunk's small opening was a significant step backward, however. Also, the seat upholstery was unusual. It was somewhat shiny and it felt cheap. In fact, it was very similar to the fabric in the early 1990s Nissan Sentra E. (I used to sell Nissans back in the day...) At least the seats were comfortable, although I wish the driver's seat cushion was a little bit longer... at least I was able to sufficiently adjust the height and tilt to my liking.
About the CVT... the throttle response is somewhat soft and elastic compared to my 09's 4-speed automatic, but it wasn't objectionable... I could get used to it. The 2010 was very solid and quiet. I didn't get a chance to take it on a curvy road, but overall I was quite impressed.
One last thing... I was stunned at how large the 2010 Outback has become... not that I found its size to be disagreeable, but it's just about as large as a Tribeca!
Bob
The Forester doesn't come with crossbars at all, remember. You have to pay extra for those.
We looked at these again this past weekend, in fact Bob (rsholland) and Frank came along as well.
The cargo area of the Outback was actually better than I thought, and the funny thing was that Frank's older Forester actually seemed to be the boxiest.
I also noticed the 16" wheels on the Legacy sedan, they should be good for the folks that want a cushier ride, but I'd opt for the 17"s.
They had a loaded up Outback 3.6R Limited and the price was $34k, IMHO way too close to the much nicer Genesis 3.8 Premium sedan that was sitting in the same dealership. No AWD and no wagon body, but the Genesis is simple over-and-above when it comes to materials and ambience. You sit in it and feel like it should cost double.
I do think they offer a strong value up to $30k, though, and many models are priced there. The Legacy 2.5i sitting in the showroom was nice. I'd just upgrade the rims.
BTW the dealership I went to had a 2.5i Limited in black with ivory leather. Very sharp looking car... the 17" rims really complete the look, IMO.