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2011 Hyundai Sonata

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Comments

  • avucarguyavucarguy Member Posts: 56
    I am not a Hyundai fan nor do I own a Hyundai, but the 2011 Hyundai Sonata picture is awesome. I would not mind owning a Sonata a few years down the road, once Hyundai starts to offer some good rebates. This car would give the Accord and Camry a run for their money.
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    The Sonata's new turbo i4 is a basically a FWD version of the Genesis coupe's 2.0L turbo 4. It's quite a strong engine. The Sonata's turbo i4 will have more boost than the Genesis coupe to make more HP. The turbo should be quite reliable. In Europe, more cars are going to smaller turbo engines that get better mileage.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Hello all, IMO the pictures of the 2011 is a big change from my 2009 Sonata, I will
    reserve judgment till after an up close view in person. But what I did read in a article
    would be very disappointing to me, not such a big deal is trunk opening size sounds
    like it will be smaller. If the 16.4 cu ft trunk space remains the same and the lid
    opening is smaller and rather large things won't fit all you can do is put smaller items. i.e. acquire smaller luggage and ice chests! Now this is what will stop me
    in my tracks from even looking into buying one. The V6 won't even be an option on
    the 2011 according to the article, I 4's only, I swore off 4 cylinders after owning 3.
    A toyota, a Mazda, and a Isuzu, three strikes your out, no matter how many turbos
    it may have. I have also owned 3 GM cars with 3.8L V6 w/ 200+ hp a Mazda 2.5L
    V6 166 hp, and also a oldsmobile w/ a 260 cu in V-8 and hiway mpg was at least
    equal to I 4's and in two cases the bigger engines got much better mpg. Those versions of 4 cylinders had trouble getting out of their own way compared to the
    much more power full V6's, I guess to each his own, I was spoiled w/ HP in the
    sixties and seventies w/ large cu in V 8's, very poor mg, even inline 6 cyl, got less
    than 20mpg but regular gas was about .35 cents a gallon. If everything goes as
    usual we keep cars seven or so years well after warranty is out. W/ our ext. warranty on the new Sonata 10 yr 100,00mile bumper to bumper who knows. Hopefully by then the US made Sonatas will have the V6's. If this info I looked thru
    is not accurate so much the better, It's hard to imagine that they would stop using
    the 3.3L V6 in the Sonatas. Only about 25 or 30% Sonatas sold in the US in 2008,
    2009 were V6's but that many is a lot of money for Hyundai. Would they risk that
    many sales to people that want the V6 ??
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    "Only about 25 or 30% Sonatas sold in the US in 2008,
    2009 were V6's but that many is a lot of money for Hyundai."

    ==========================

    10-15% is more like it. With powerful, reliable I4 engines available there is very little demand for a V6 in this class.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    You are correct about the I4 being a much bigger seller than the V6, the issue of
    powerful depends on what it is compared to another I4, a 2cyl, or the much more hp rated v6 let alone a 300hp+ V8.From the dealer off the shelf I don't think there is
    any question about which engine in the present Hyundai line has the least power.
    However with that said there is a percentage of the buyers that don't want a 4cyl,
    that includes me, just me is nothing. I think I read 80% for 2009 were I4's but lets
    use your 15%According to newly released sales information for 2009 (93,575) new
    Sonatas were sold here in the US, GLS, SE. & Limited's combined. That equates to 14,036 V6 units, (1200) being in September 2009. Not to many right? that many
    V6 units for the period Sept, 2008 thru Sept 2009 is about $282,720,000.00. Many
    if not all new Sonatas were built here in the Alabama plant, if they can stand to maybe loose that much of the V6 buisiness that is no skin off my back, when I,m
    in the market for a new car Sonata won,t be on the list. It,s just that simple. Thanks
    for your reply.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Sorry to interrupt again, I forgot something, back in July when we started looking at
    the Sonatas there were 4 cylinders around here coming out the ears but the V6,s
    were very hard to come by in the whole Gulf coast region of Louisiana we found
    only 3 available. I consider myself lucky because the dealer where we bought the
    SE V6 sold us his display model off the showroom floor and it was well dressed up
    with all kind of goodies added to the regular SE package. What I,m getting at is
    a while before the 2010 could be bought the V6's were virtually gone. Did the buyers
    that wanted a V6 have to settle for something less than they wanted with the 4cyl,
    or did they just go buy a Nissan or Honda or whatever like I thought I was going to
    have to do.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    I guess it all boils down to economies of scale. Hyundai is willing to give up a few sales while offering a lower price point and better economy than the competition.

    10 years ago, when 2.2L fours with 140HP were commonly the base engine in this class, there was good reason to opt for the 200HP (at that time) V6s that were offered. In 2010 with I4 engines pushing 200HP and offering excellent economy, the demand for the V6s will continue to shrink.

    With $4/gasoline coming back soon (2011 at the latest), Hyundai is making the wise play and they can offer a high-output turbo I4 for the performance crowd.

    P.S. I believe $5/gasoline in the U.S. is very likely in the near future and that will put many of us in sub-compacts and compacts anyway.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Economics, good subject, lets compare a few known statistics. For 2009 in the
    midsize sedan class VW Passat I4 200 hp turbo is compared to the 2009 Sonata
    along with a string of other cars like Altima, and Accord etc. These have I4's also,
    not turbos maybe but near the same HP rating 180-190 or so. The VW's 200hp
    turbo is rated EPA 19-29 combined 23, hiway 32mpg "advertised", premium fuel
    recommended. I think the Sonata I4 is EPA rated a little better with a tad less HP
    on regular fuel. Now the Sonatas 3.3L V6 249 hp is EPA rated 19-29 with 23 combined regular fuel recommended same as the VW 200hp turbo. I have seen in
    the mid 30's consistently on the hiway 70+ mph with AC on. (check on real world
    mpg). You may have seen a little better on your I4's, for 50 to 70HP less you should
    have. The lowest calculated mpg i've had on this car is over 25mpg (not much bumper to bumper driving but not all hiway either). The three trims of Sonata's carry
    a different price tag, the base GLS. the SE, & the limited a little more for the V6 equally equipped. The Passat base 200hp turbo is about $28,000+. None of these
    cars listed above are hybrids. When the 2011 models hit the market what will the
    I4's have over the 2009 & 2010's, what will you have to pay for that turbo 4 cyl and
    what is the EPA mpg going to be. We know now what the I4 and the V6 gets in the
    2009 model. Will the 2011 Sonata follow suit w/ the VW turbo? at $4 or $5 a gallon
    gas and the V6 is not available what now? Economics is the key!
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Real world MPG of the I4 versus the V6 is significant. The V6 real kills you if driven hard, especially in town where mileage can easily drop to 15mpg in a 3300 pound mid-size sedan.

    On the hwy they're more comparable with the I4 typically besting the V6s by 10%. Yes if you need a 300HP rocket sled that goes from 0-60 faster than a 1980s Corvette, by all means get something other than the new Hyundai.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Real world mpg can vary very much I4 versus I4 even, no one drives exactly the same nor do they follow the same path. There are many things that affect actual
    MPG, type of tires (inflated correctly or not) type of gas, the correct oil for the area,
    driving conditions, driving terrain, plenty stop and go city traffic, high altitude driving,
    low altitude driving, always in a hot climate or a cold climate That is just a few items
    that can affect what an individual actually calculates MPG (real world), there are
    many others.
    Drive the I4 real hard and see what happens, bring it in the city and see what happens, do you think it is immune to a dramatic MPG drop? As for as the curb
    weight it is listed at a little more that 3300K f/ the V6 and the I4 is just below it. But if you like the 3300# number we will use that. Correct me if I,m wrong but doesn't the little I4 have to carry about the same weight? with that said, if you load a
    trailer with a lot of weight what do you think will fare better dragging it, a vehicle with
    a little HP or one with a lot of HP. If you will tell me, where does the 10% better MPG come from I have been researching this 2009 car for at least 5 months, Hyundai reports, owner reviews, Car&Driver reviews, Edmunds etc. and I have never
    seen this posted, besides how would this be real accurate if most everyone lists a
    different MPG.

    As for as the 300hp rocket thing you mentioned I don't have one and don't need one
    I gave up racing over 40 years ago but I can assure you when I did it wasn,t with a
    4 cylinder or a V6. What I choose to drive and how I do it should be no concern of
    yours unless you plan on paying for it.

    In closeing, other than hear say who knows for sure what Hyundai has coming for
    the USA market in 2011, that remains to be seen. But anyway hope everyone finds
    the car that suits them. Have a good one!!!
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    If you will tell me, where does the 10% better MPG come from I have been researching this 2009 car for at least 5 months, Hyundai reports, owner reviews, Car&Driver reviews,....

    =================================

    Try looking here.... EPA.gov

    I4 engines improve dynamic responses and weigh less. But yes - if you are pulling a trailer with your unibody, mid-size sedan - get a V6.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Here's another take on swapping out six-cylinder engines for turbo fours, from the latest Car & Driver:

    A few years into the new 5-series' life, the engine portfolio will change to more fuel-efficient turbo-charged, direct-injection four-cylinders that will likely spell the end of the silky-smooth inline sixes of the 528i and 535i.

    So with the 2011 Sonata, Hyundai is actually leading the way in going down a path that other automakers including BMW are following with their mid-sized cars. If BMW is going to ditch their legendary inline sixes in favor of I4s in the 5-series, what does that say for the future of six-cylinder engines in mid-sized cars?
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    ...what does that say for the future of six-cylinder engines in mid-sized cars?

    =====================================

    They are nearly dead. Next generation cars from most major automakers (like the '11 Sonata) will be powered by large (2.4 to 2.7L) 4 cyclinder powerplants with 5/6 speed automatic gearboxes.
  • hdsithdsit Member Posts: 58
    Posted this in hyundai-forums.com, but got no usefull replies:
    Just got my sonata 09 totaled in a crash front and back... No personel damages at all.
    I'm considering if i should wait to get the new YF, i40. Or buy a second hand right now (takes 3-4 months to get a new from Korea)
    I get misleading information on when it arrives here in europe (Denmark).
    Posts and blogs said it will be available in europe i next year - around juli as far as i can see according to earlier change/release plans (5 years).
    My 05 NF was on sale in Denmark in juli 05, and released(sold) in Korea in end of 2004.
    The danish importer said it first will be available in start of 2011. Even they not have any written information about it yet, and cant say for sure...
    Someone knows anythink specific about this.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    My last reply was to your inferance to REAL WORLD MPG as you put it, not the
    EPA rating. Everyone who reads a sticker price on a new car sees that, and it also
    says actual mpg will vary for different drivers, and in real world that is what happens.
    As I mentioned before there are so many factors that affect MPG its not possible
    for everyone everywhere to report the same numbers. Example would be if we both
    have identical Sonata"s w/ I4's, and I live and drive mainly in suburban area that is
    rather conjested and you live in a out of town country setting and only come to the city now and then, would we both post the same MPG? not hardly! Another case
    could be with you and your own car, you may drive the same path to work every day, yesterday you lucked out and hit the traffic and the signal lights just right, today however your luck ran out and that same road has a bad accident ahead of
    you and are creeping along stop and go for an hour or so. Would your MPG calculate the same both days? I saw a post recently on one of the Edmunds forums, the person was asking for replys to his problem it went kind of like this.
    My brother and I have just bought each a 2009 Sonata just alike except his has the
    V6 and mine has the I4, how can he consistently meet and even exceed my combined MPG?. We live and work near each other so driving conditions are basically equal. I don't know what the answers are for that question but I could go
    back and looked if I was interested. This is not posted as an argument for or against either type engine, only sharing information, and a lot of it is opinion and
    opinions are like a "BUTT" everybody has one.

    The deal about the loaded trailer was meant to show that the 4cylinder is lugging
    around just about the same weight as the V6. That weight difference would be a huge factor on a NASCAR vehicle, I don't know if that is the same case with a family sedan, just the drivers weights could be several hundred pounds different. So
    the idea of the 4cylinder being a few pounds lighter and making a big difference in
    MPG sounds like a theory to me, unless everyone's car carry's exactly the same
    weight there will be a difference. IMO why would Hyundai need or want to play
    follow the leader anymore, both of their new engines were designed and built here
    in the US at the Hyundai plant in Alabama not over seas, their dependability is already proven and the mpg is just as good or better than most compeditors in the
    class. If BMW or Mercedes or whoever needs to change their drive trane to keep up
    with Hyundai, well so be it. Could you fill me in on "the I4's improve the dynamic
    responses"in what area and compared to what? All info is welcomed.
    Just a little note, one of the reasons I bought the new V6 is, it has a timing chain
    not a belt like a lot of other engines, the stupid belt can be very unhealthy for the
    engine traveling at 70MPH. Changing the belt at correct intervauls is kind of an
    expensive add on.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Could you fill me in on "the I4's improve the dynamic responses"in what area and compared to what?

    ------------------------------------------

    Without getting into details, weight distribution is the key. Cars with better weight distribution handle and brake better and are more agile than "nose heavy" cars. V6 engines put too much weight over the front axle in mid-size car, FWD applications; often placing 100 plus pounds of additional weight right where it's not wanted.

    The U.S. market is the only one in the world that still sells V6 engines in this segment. This segment being mid-size passenger cars or the "C/D segment" as the auto industry call it. That will change over the next few years and by 2013, the V6 will be all but gone because it's rarely needed in cars this size.

    Modern I4 engines, some with turbos, will be the dominant engine in most passenger cars soon. Many of these engines will push 250HP in their HO variations and not all I4 have timing belts, many have chains.

    V6s will still be around for a few years in the mid-size class. There will be plenty of options for the time being. Even Hyundai could drop a V6 in the Sonata for 2012 if demand warrants it. People who have the need for the bigger engine can get one.

    The issue is, most people don't need the V6 - that's why 85% of them opt for the I4 and it's the right play if you don't drive fully loaded or tow anything regularly.

    Best of luck whatever car you chose. I love the look of the '11 Sonata and 200hp I4 engine will be ideal for me. I know that's not the case for everyone and we have many choices available.

    P.S. The EPA website also contains "Owner Reported" mpg figures.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I don't know where you came up with that information but giving you due respect
    it must be only your opinion and you do have the right to that. But different than you
    I will get into some detail for the people who would like to have more accurate set
    of stats, this is a list of a few cars that compare to the 2009 Sonata in the as you
    put it "mid-size passenger cars FWD applications" All below are 2009 models.
    abbreviation s/s is for EPA rated smaller than Sonata

    malibu v6 s/s
    altima v6 s/s
    camry v6 s/s
    mazda6 v6 s/s
    fusion v6 s/s
    cadillac sts, cts v6 s/s
    lincoln mkz v6 s/s
    acura tl v6 s/s
    lexus gs 350 v6 s/s
    lexus ls 60dh v8 s/s
    audi a6 Quattro v8 s/s
    audi a8 v8 s/s
    mercedes benz e-550 v8 s/s

    a few that are rated large like sonata but very close to total interior volume size
    accord v6
    jaguar X v8
    infiniti m35 v6
    azera v6
    genesis v8

    next is a couple of sedans that fall a little short of the midsize class
    BMW M3 v8 COMPACT
    VW CC v6 COMPACT
    Some of these above listed cars come in FWD,RWD and AWD.
    As for as the weight distribution being the key to handle better (opinion only) I rather
    the v6, the breaking 0-60 skid pad test did not differentiate between the I4 or the V6.
    The I4 and the V6 Sonata are exactly the same size and same curb to curb turning
    radius so how can 1 be more agile than the other, also the I4 is a long way behind on the get up and go. I would like to sit on top of a lot more HP and not ever use it
    than not have it if it's really needed, I'm more than willing to give up a mpg or so.
    The 85% that opt for the I4 may be because 85% of the Sonatas built or I4's and
    after all V6 trims are sold what else is the choice. How do you know that if more
    were built they wouldn't be bought. It costs the car makers less to make an I4 so
    it's on the market costing less, if they were exactly the same price would any of the
    I4 lovers jump over? What does the survey say about that? You know it's really not
    an issue about need for the v-6 it's more of a want, same goes for the I4 you don't need a 200HP 4 cylinder or a 250HP 4 cylinder turbo just as you don't need the same HP rated V6!!!! right. So when all the big V6"s and V8's are replaced with the I4 200-250 hp you are about where you now, what will replace the I4, a peddle
    car, good luck with that! I will agree on one thing, your right the 2011 looks good.
    Same goes for everyone out there hopefully the car you buy is what you really want,
    because your stuck with it a while just like me. We do like ours so far.

    P.S. and the "real world mpg forum" is right here on Edmunds.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree with the assertion that reducing weight, especially in the front on a FWD car, helps handling in general. If you need independent opinion to back that up, it's out there, but I don't have time right now to dig it up.

    Agility is not just about the dimensions of the car and turning radius. Weight and weight distribution also play a role, as do other factors such as tire/rim size and suspension tuning (not all Sonatas are alike there).

    It's great you love your V6. Personally I think I4s are fine for this class of vehicle. I agree that no one "needs" a 200 hp I4 in this kind of car either. I'd rather have 160 hp or so with a boost in FE than 200 hp.

    One advantage of an I4 compared to a V6 (in particular the V6 on the Sonata): have you compared the prices on servicing those two engines? From what I've read, oil changes cost more for the V6. But the biggie is any service that requires access to the back bank of cylinders, e.g. spark plug change. The car shouldn't need that kind of service very often, but I'd rather pay less for service over a car's lifetime than more.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Reading this post reminds of an old saying.

    "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    All these discussions are what this forum is all about, sharing info about the
    differences and likes or dislikes of cars.
    The list of cars in the earlier post was to show that all those car makers still offer the V6 and V8's in their 2009 and 2010 models. Some of them don't offer a 4 cyl. in their car line at all. If there is no market for more HP why do they continue to add HP to all their engines including the 4 cylinder. I f the smaller I4 is so good, decreasing the HP should make it even better and more desirable right?
    How about a 2 cylinder that would be the ultimate wouldn't it! "I can't wait"
    Just because Hyundai USA only makes 15-20% of the Sonatas w/ the V6 doesn't
    absolutely mean that it will revolutionize the auto industry. The 4 cylinder cost less
    to produce so it is cheaper, good for the people that want a good dependable car at
    a good price, but if it were the same price would the V6 get anymore attention?
    At a couple of thousand dollars cheaper I bet it would look a whole lot better to quite a few people. Like the old saying goes, you get what you pay for.

    The assessment on the suspension being different on some Sonatas is correct and
    the weight distribution is also important. A little more weight on the drive axle will
    create better traction, compare a FWD to a RWD and see which one you can spin
    the tires on easier, or make a turn to fast in the rain or snow and watch where your
    [non-permissible content removed] end goes! The idea to put the engine on top of the drive axle in the front wasn't
    to allow you to put more in the trunk. Would a little more weight (100# are so) make
    a major dynamic difference? If it had anything to do with adverse effects on handling or safety why don't they put the engine in the back? How well did that work out for the old VW and the Chevy Corvair? not so well it seems. Where is the
    engine in a NASCAR racing machine? handles the speed and track pretty good it
    looks like. It,s not that I love the V6 in my Sonata it,s more about not liking the I4!
    If I had the choice it would be a V8 like the Genesis, but 250hp plus or minus with
    the 3.3L is good enough for me. To each his own!

    P.S. I have owned 4 different 4 cylinder vehicles in the past, "I have been there"
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ...compare a FWD to a RWD and see which one you can spin
    the tires on easier...

    I have. You can spin both pretty easily in slippery conditions, without the benefit of traction control. In fact, the more power/torque you have, the easier it is to spin the drive wheels no matter if it's RWD or FWD.

    If you are asking me which car handles better, e.g. a 3 Series (RWD) or an Elantra (about the same size, FWD), that's a pretty easy question to answer. And which car has close to 50/50 weight distribution?

    Why not put the engine in the back? Weight distribution, remember?

    And actually, the idea of putting the engine over the front drive wheels was ALL about space utilization, not about creating a better-handling car. Where are the drive wheels on a NASCAR racer--in the front or back?

    I read a comparo the other day about 3 sedans with over 500 hp each. The slowest ran 0-60 in 4.3 seconds. Save your money, and someday one of those could be yours! :)
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    If you read a little closer you will see I said "turning in a slippery condition" not
    spinning the wheels in a slippery condition you can do that w/ a bicycle.
    Brilliant deduction on more HP/torque easier to spin the wheels, that puts us
    back to the more HP versus the lack of.
    I didn't say anything about a 3 series or Elantra I think you brought those two cars
    up yourself for some reason, I won't comment one way or the other on either, since
    I have no experience w/ those, I don't buy cars in that class so my interest is in what I have and what they compare to not the Elantra, I'll take your word about those type cars, anyway this is centered around the Sonata topic, Elantra does not
    fit here. I think, Sonata only comes in front wheel drive and the I4 Sonata and the V6 Sonata is the topic.
    I do remember about the weight distribution thing, that is why the engine still sits in the front evidently, and where is the "engine" in the NASCAR? If the weight distribution would be a major player why did all the drive trane weight move to the front drive axles (including the transmission). that also reduces rear wheel weight.
    Someone made the statement recently about "nose heavy" creating some kind of
    issue like braking and handeling. The FWD has become a standard in the midsize
    class on the American market for a lot of years, it must be working pretty good.
    Now if the arm chair auto "engineers" have what they think is an improvement in the
    "dynamics" of FWD please contact a major auto maker, maybe!!!! we could all
    benefit from your expert thechnology, who knows you may get a large reward or a
    high paying job out of it, and if you could pull yourself away from your busy engineering schedule and let Hyundai know about this they can really make the 2011
    I4 a much better car. You know the Noble prize may be in order, WOW!!!

    Your comment about my finances don't belong here, and how did you become an
    expert on that issue too? It would take a genius w/ some kind of physic powers,
    since I don't really know you I guess I'll have to take your word there too!

    I already know about the over 500 HP 0-60 stats, the CTS VDI 6.2l and is probably
    the fastest production model in it's class (midsize luxery sedan) @ 3.7 0-60 and the
    price is some where in the $60,000+ range, and why would I know this off the top
    of my head, and I can assure you unlike some people I'm not a rocket scientest
    or a auto engineer w/ ESP!!! Now get your new found brain storm idea about FWD
    to the car industry so it can be incorparated in the neww 2011 cars.

    Hope you and everyone reading these posts have pleasant day!!!!!!!
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Now if the arm chair auto "engineers" have what they think is an improvement in the "dynamics" of FWD please contact a major auto maker, maybe!!!!

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    I have worked as an engineer for two major suppliers to the auto-industry. Lear Corporation and NSK Bearing. I'm currently laid-off and pursuing an MBA full-time in hopes of leaving manufacturing for the "second half" of my career.

    The next generation of mid-size cars will be launched by major automakers around the world from 2011 through 2014. Hold onto your hats - they will have better quality, be more efficient and safer than anything we've seen. I think you'll be surprised by what's coming our way.

    This discussion started with regard to Hyundai not offering a V6 option in the 2011 Sonata. Sometimes you have to "agree to disagree". Another old saying goes something like this, "I can't always say yes, but I can say no obligingly."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What you said was, "spin the tires on easier". I don't see the word "turning" in there, do you? :confuse:

    If you don't understand why automakers went to FWD (space utilization, not performance or handling) in the mid-sized family car class and other cars that are not luxury cars or performance-oriented cars, I don't have the time to educate you. (And I doubt you'd pay any attention to what I have to say on it.) But there is a lot of info on this subject on the Web, if you are interested in learning more.

    BTW, NASCAR race cars don't fit here, this is about the Sonata. ;)

    Comments about "have a pleasant day" aside, I can see you are not interested in a civil and respectful discussion here, but just taking shots at people because they have a different opinion than you do, so... have fun posting to yourself! And, have a great day also! :)
  • james1982james1982 Member Posts: 73
    Why do all internet forums get reduced to passive aggressive pissing matches? :confuse:
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Backy I,m sorry for the the confusion on the spin the tires thing, but when you have time glance back at it, there is a comma after the word easier and "or" starts the
    part about maybe loosing some control on the turn on the wet road.
    I have an opinion on the (space utilization thing) may not be the same as yours or anyone else,s just an opinion. What I don't quite understand is the engine has
    pretty much been in the front of vehicles since they started mass producing them a
    long time ago. Several attempts were made to use a rear engine type car but didn't
    work out to well but at least it may have justified the reason to keep it in the front.
    With the majority of the drive trane being toward the front half of the car it is probably front heavy to start with. The drive shaft and the differential extending to
    the rear wheels did put a little weight toward the back end, the fuel tank in the back
    did also, giving a bit of weight distribution. Now to achieve (space utilization) every
    pound of the entire drive trane shifts to the engine compartment right over the FWD
    axle. But nothing was added to the rear end to compensate for the weight loss that
    went to the front. A good job at space utilization but all the weight distribution went 100% in the frontal area. What they did is easy to see but why did all the carmakers decide to do the same thing, It could be an engineering theory, does it
    accomplish what it was done for, all we can do is buy whats out there that meets our individual prefferances and hope what they do will improve the industry for everyone.

    On a personal note I apologize for any comment I made that may have caused hard feeling I guess I just got carried away and put us in the totally wrong direction .
    This is not my norm, I have just been put on a very strict diet by the VA and I think
    they are trying to make me loose about 200 lbs ( that is what I weigh) so I may be
    in a lot of trouble pretty soon so you may not be hearing me rum my head much longer. Thanks for being so patient with the elderly!
    sincerely: have a good day!!!!!
  • jjx456jjx456 Member Posts: 41
    http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/sonata/2011/2011-hyundai-sonata-at-2009-los-an- geles-auto-show.html

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/02/2011-hyundai-sonata-yf-regular-turbo-hybrid-l- os-angeles/
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    I know the speculation was that there would be no V6 in the 2011 sonata, but I never thought hyundai would go through with that. I guess they're willing to forego the 10-15 percent of current sonata V6 owners - potentially a lot of sales. The new sonata looks impressive and I believe I would have given serious consideration to purchasing my first hyundai if it had a V6, but I have no interest any longer. No more 4 cylinders for me. I've driven the camry, accord, sonata and fusion 4 cylinders and a few others. They're fine for most people, but I won't own another 4 cyl so long as someone markets a 6 cylinder. 23/35 mpg with 200 hp sounds fine. But I see that the new mustang has 305 hp and has a 19/30 rating. 100+ additional hp costs only 4-5 mpg..... I have no interest in mustang, but just pointing it out. I wish hyundai luck with this car and I'm sure it will be a winner.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    19/30 is indeed impressive for a mustang, but 23/35 is still class leading. hyundai basically came up with something that will compete with the next gen camry and accord. i'm so impressed. now camy and accord has to look up to sonata. amazing accomplishment if you think about it. they were followers but not they are laeders.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    also, i think hyundai doesn't want the next azera to compete with sonata. if you want 4banger go with sonata, if you want 280+hp v6 go with new azera(if they don't drop it). sonata v6 was almost as nice as azera, and people couldn't justify paying extra for azera. it's my speculation, but that's how i see it. azera is a very good car.

    or maybe hyundai will drop azera, so they can push new Amanti even more? i don't know. just my speculation.
  • akumaakuma Member Posts: 70
    the new Amanti/Cadenza/K7 is really nice. i think better than the new Sonata and more upscale and almost the same price (highline), base is about a 5k difference.
    here's a long advert (Korean) for the new Amanti. i hope the U.S. doesn't get a watered down version.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2AiitnVj5I
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The new Amanti should be better than the Sonata, it's Kia's high-end car. The Optima competes with the Sonata. FWIW, the difference between the base Sonata and base Azera is also about $5k.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Wow. Love the styling of the 2011, although I worry a little about rear headroom.

    Will the 2011 Sonata be available with a manual trans?

    I have an 2002 Accord and a 2008 Accord.

    Love the 08, but the 02 is lacking some features--like it doesn't even have anti-lock brakes.

    Am now considering at least a little the Sonata...

    Is there a press release somewhere with full specs and features?

    It goes on sale in January, right?

    Again, wow. Love the GDI engine hwy mpg--35!!
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Is there a press release somewhere with full specs and features?

    Well, since you asked so nicely... ;)

    http://hyundainews.com/Auto_Show_News/Los_Angeles_Auto_Show/2009_LA_Auto_Show_-_- Sonata/Press_Release.asp

    http://hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2011_Models/Sonata/Specifications.asp
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    tenpin--it looks really impressive in the pix and on paper. I'm a loyal Honda owner, but here's what seems to possibly sway me in the direction of considering the Sonata for our next car.

    First, love the styling. I'd call the current Accord kind of a B when it comes to styling. It's grown on me in the two years we've owned it, but I'm never going to warm up all the way. The new Sonata I'd call an A or maybe even an A+. I think it's probably the best looking sedan in the segment.

    Second, love what I've read about the direct injection engine--more power and more mpg that the current Accord. What's not to like? Now, my 08 Accord's EX engine--a bit borrowed from the Acura line, I think--is very smooth and peppy. But if the Sonata engine is as good as they say, it might come quite close to the Accord EX in terms of smooothness. And the current Accord base (LX) engine is not as impressive....177 hp and it's bit louder and rougher. So, comparing an LX Accord to a GLS Sonata, it looks like the Sonata comes out ahead--and costs 2k or so less.

    Third, the features on the new Sonata are amazing. I had to get a top of the line Accord to get bluetooth, which is great. It looks the the entry level Sonata will have that feature. Ditto with things like XM, etc.

    6 speed manual looks to be available on the Sonata! I love Honda manuals, and I doubt right now I'd love a Hyundai as much, but I'm keeping an open mind and thinking about test driving the Sonata when it comes out.

    It looks like you can get navi on the base Sonata. Wow. Again, I love my 08 Accord EXL navi, and I think it represents great value for the money, but you can only get the navi on the top of the line Accord. To be able to get navi on the base Sonata seems like a real plus.

    And the new Sonata is made in the USA. I love my Ohio made Accords, and would like to buy a USA built vehicle the next time too...

    Hard to break my loyalty to Honda though...

    Questions about the new Sonata to be answered--How's the handling? Steering? Manual trans? Rear visibility? Rear headroom?
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • akumaakuma Member Posts: 70
    well i would say that this new Sonata (top loaded trim) blows away the current Amanti, and even the current Azera. i'm not even sure if there is much room for an Azera between the Sonata and Genesis, unless there are people that really want to spend $30-35k for yet another full size Hyundai (Sonata, Genesis, Equus) except with front wheel drive and a V6. i would also wager that the remaining Azeras sell for less than $25K fully loaded. the only reason the base MSRP of the Azera is $5k higher (than 2010 Sonata) is because a V6, 17" alloy wheels, power seats, and a few other options are already included.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I wish people would stop referring to standard equipment as "options."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If Hyundai sticks with I4s only in the Sonata, then I think there's room for a V6 "large" FWD sedan in the lineup, slotted between the Sonata and Genesis. A loaded Azera is just over $30k, about $5k less than a Genesis 3.8 with moonroof. Toyota has room for the Avalon, Nissan for the Maxima... why not Hyundai?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    I think they make a good point at the end of the article:

    "Going well beyond the current car’s it’s-good-for-the-money appeal, Hyundai appears to be on a tear with the Sonata in terms of design and class-leading four-cylinder horsepower, in addition to feature content and value. So far, so good, but the remaining question is a critical one: What about driving dynamics? The current Sonata suffers from excessive body roll, a platform that doesn’t feel as stiff as those of its top competitors, and slightly lazy shifts. In short, it needs to quicken its reflexes across the board. Here’s to hoping the chassis engineers take a hint from the “fluidic” part of the new design credo."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • akumaakuma Member Posts: 70
    bhmr59: those "standard" features (V6, 17" alloy wheels, power seats, etc.) on the Azera are "options" on the Sonata.

    backy: when comparing apples to apples, the price difference between the Sonata and the Azera is only about $1-2k. the Sonata fully loaded is about $29,000 MSRP while the Azera is about $32,500 MSRP. however the last generation Sonata can't be equipped with power folding mirrors (i'm not even sure if the Sonata even has folding mirrors), power adjustable pedals (these two options aren't even available on the Genesis), power sunshade, power tilt and telescoping wheel, higher premium stereo (logic 7), memory settings for the seats/steering wheel, 3.8 liter engine, tire pressure monitoring and rain sensing wipers. but both of those MSRPs won't mean anything when the new Sonata comes out for under $20k. neither the turbo nor the hybrid will be available right away, so the first batch of Sonatas will probably top out around $25-28k depending on what features are standard and what new (expensive) options are available.

    the Azera is just an abysmal seller. the base Genesis is just a much better car than a fully loaded Azera, while the Azera is hardly better than the refreshed Sonata let alone the completely redesigned one. the Maxima and Camry have a long history; so do the Altima and the Avalon although about 3 generations less. but the Maxima/Altima and Camry/Avalon were in completely different classes when they first came out. i'll give that the Camry and Avalon were just mostly different in size, mid-sized and full-sized; the Avalon also had more standard features and was V6 only, but the original Altima was a compact car only available with an inline 4 and competed with Civics and Corollas. now, the Altima has cannibalized Maxima sales. at one point (2002-2003) the Altima was bigger than the Maxima! i'm not even sure if the Azera and Sonata (limited) are in a different class at all. making a new Azera would be like bringing back the Toyota Cressida; in a word, unnecessary.

    i see Hyundai moving up their model lines half a class up. in other words, even though the Sonata's competitive set is with the Accord, Camry, Altima, Mazda 6, Legacy, Malibu, Fusion, i think the target set is mid-sized and full-sized, front wheeled drived, entry level luxury like the Passat CC, LaCrosse, Maxima, Taurus, ES350/Avalon and TL; $40k+ cars. likewise, i think that the new Elantra will also target the Accord, Camry, Altima, Mazda 6, Legacy, Malibu and Fusion despite competing with the Civic, Corolla, Jetta, Mazda 3 and Cruz. the Azera wasn't that much more attractive than the Avalon at $3k less with worse resale and fuel economy, but the new Sonata (and the Amanti) at $10k+ less with comparable features, much better fuel economy, and improving resale might all but kill off the Avalon except for the die hard unbelievers.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What I said that the base Sonata is about $5k less than the base Azera, and I think that is accurate.

    By your own figures, the difference between a loaded Sonata V6 and Azera is just over $3500. And yes, Hyundai has to offer more features in the Azera to justify the higher price, otherwise there would be no reason at all for the Azera to exist.

    The problem with the Azera is there isn't enough to differentiate it from the Sonata. But with the Sonata limited to only I4s, there is now room for differentiation, at least in the engine bay. The Azera needs a redesign of course, to keep up with the newer Genesis and brand-new Sonata.

    I don't see the Elantra targeting the Accord, Camry, Altima, Mazda6 and other true mid-sized cars. The Accord in particular is a full-sized car in interior volume, and is a natural target for the Sonata--as is the Camry, Altima, Mazda6 et. al. The Elantra will continue to go after the Civic, Corolla, Focus, and cars of that size, but with its long-time advantage of more room for the dollar.
  • akumaakuma Member Posts: 70
    all i'm saying is that the Azera at the moment is just a slightly fancier Sonata (the old one), just slightly. or a Sonata with a few more features and different interior and exterior styling and a couple more cubes of space. there really isn't anything superior about the Azera to the Sonata except for those aforementioned features.

    i don't think that Hyundai is going to make a sedan with only a V6 engine available and no other engine like the Amanti. i think the V6 is only going to be used in the Genesis and some of the CUVs (Veracruz, Santa Fe), and even then it might be replaced in the next generation. Hyundai has to get to 35.5 MPG by 2016. if Hyundai can reduce weight, improve performance and fuel economy while saving money by implementing 4-cylinder turbos, and make these engines very refined, i think the V6 will no longer be used by Hyundai. the Tau V8 (supercharged in some applications) with all the money invested in it, will probably only be used as a halo engine. i'm almost certain the Genesis Coupe is going to ditch the V6 and use a more powerful GDI 4 cylinder turbo instead.

    i don't really expect the Elantra to compete against the major mid-sizers. it's just when the Genesis sedan was engineered, they benchmarked the BMW 5-Series, Infiniti M, Lexus GS, and Mercedes E-Class. that was their "target" set according to Krafcik. their actual competitive set was Cadillac CTS, Chrysler 300M, ES350 and Pontiac G8.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjia6K0Rnqg
    this is explained at about 4:00 into the half hour video.

    the Genesis coupe was also benchmarked against the G37 coupe despite competing against the Eclipse and Mustang and later the Camaro.

    the new Elantra will almost certainly have a version of the same GDI engine and in-house 6-speed transmission as the Sonata, and have a midsize interior like the current one (97.9 cubic feet, 112.1 total volume; for reference, the Acura RL has 99.1 cubic feet and 112.2 total volume). the interior will be upgraded as well as the technology, not unlike the new Tucson. it will also be priced thousands of dollars cheaper comparably equipped if not better equipped than the current Civic and Corolla with class leading fuel economy. i wouldn't be surprised if the base 4 cylinder versions of the Accord, Camry and Altima were compared or cross-shopped with the fully loaded versions of the new Elantra. the new Elantra will probably be a better car by most metrics (performance, features, fuel economy, engine/tranny refinement, suspension, design) than the current Sonata (4 cylinder) except for interior and cargo volume. it will just have the exterior dimensions and weight comparable to a Civic or Corolla.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think the days of the Sonata being priced thousands less than the Camry, or the Elantra priced thousands less than the Corolla, are gone, especially when the next-gen Sonata and Elantra debut. Already for 2010, the Sonata and Elantra are priced very close to comparable Toyotas; compare, for example, a 2010 Elantra with ESC and alloys to the Corolla with ESC and alloys--the Corolla actually costs less, in terms of invoice less rebates! So get ready for a small price advantage at best, but getting a superior car in terms of power, fuel economy, interior room, and standard features.
  • akumaakuma Member Posts: 70
    that's why i think Hyundai might be doing their advanced benchmarking. when compared to their competitive classes, Hyundai cars aren't so cheap anymore. but when they are compared to one class above (and i think they can compare quite well actually) then they start really looking like good values again. also, other carmakers are being more aggressive with their pricing. the new Tucson looks like it compares well to CR-V and Rav 4, but i think it can be compared to the Mazda CX-7 and even the Acura RDX and Infiniti EX. i'm sure the guys at Acura and Infiniti absolutely hate being compared to Hyundai. the Tucson will need to get the GDI engine and/or turbocharged one to be truly competitive with the premium small crossovers, though.

    well it looks like Hyundai is going to replace the Azera afterall. according to comments at hyundai-blog, it's already going through wind-tunnel testing (Hyundai sure does keep their future cars under very secret wraps) and is supposed going to be available with a GDI 4.0 V6 (which may or may not also go in the Sonata) that might make 32 MPG and possible AWD. that's news to me. if they improve the Azera as much if not more so than they did with the Sonata, they're going to have to be careful in differentiating it from the Genesis besides RWD, since the Genesis is still a long way away from redesign.

    maybe they're going to turn the Azera into a huge full-sized car like the Crown Vic or Park Avenue or turn it into a Lincoln killer or a poor man's BMW 7 series (but with front wheel drive). maybe they're just going to make different flavors for very similar cars to get as many buyers as they can. they'll just have to do a better job than GM did with that.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I thought the Genesis was supposed to be a "poor man's 7 Series"? ;)
  • steven39steven39 Member Posts: 636
    i hope for hyundai's sake that they have solved the suspension (thunk) issues that have plagued pryor years models sonatas.i currently have a 08 sonata with this thunk issue as does many other sonata owners on this forum.
  • msazzyindcmsazzyindc Member Posts: 118
    I am an Azera owner and the 2011 Sonata is making my mouth water, i'm excited to see it in person, I may just have to trade down.
  • james1982james1982 Member Posts: 73
    I am an Azera owner and the 2011 Sonata is making my mouth water, i'm excited to see it in person, I may just have to trade down.

    I still haven't seen one in person. I'm going to take my Sonata to my dealer for an oil change at some point this week, and I'm really hoping they have one in the showroom.

    If they do, I'll snap a few pics and post them here.
  • craigmricraigmri Member Posts: 243
    My dealer is saying the 2011 Sonata will be in the showrooms around the Superbowl. I cannot wait....I've decided we will either trade our Azera or veracruz in on a loaded Sonata...If they drive as good as they look they'll have a huge hit on their hands!

    Craig
  • steven39steven39 Member Posts: 636
    i wouldn't count on the 2011 sonata being in the dealers showrooms in january when on almost every car site includeing hyundai's own site that says that the 2011 sonata will not be available till spring 2010....yes, the sonata does look real nice and does come with lots of standard features but don't judge a book by it's cover till it's been test driven.
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