Toyota 4Runner

silverjetta · December 2003

When I bought my 2004 4Runner (17inch), the pressure indicator was blinking for some reason and it had to go back to service 5 min after the purchase. A junior mechanic tried to fix it. First looked for a "reset" button and then was instructed by a senior mechanic how to fix it. However it was too complicated that he couldn't figured it out. After 10-15 min of try, the senior mechanic finally took it over and explained how it works to the junior mechanics, sales person, and me.

Well, I couldn't really understand how it works because it was VERY complicated (sophisticated as he put it). He also said 4Runner tire monitoring system is most advanced among Toyota vehicles. Basically, the valvestems (including the spare tire) transmit signals when the pressure is lower than a threshold. To reset the monitoring system, you have to deflate all the tire once and start inflate one by one. Each time one tire is inflated, it seems that you have to turn on and off the vehicle.

The metalic valvestem costs $150-200 each (very cool looking). The wheel is specially designed to accommodate the valvestem so you can't simply buy new wheels. He said the wheel is "very expensive" too. He also said that I should think twice before I bring this car to a regular tire store for tire change at least people out there become familiar with this new system. We also adviced "don't side-swipe this wheel"!

ladyofluxury · December 2003

"Lady of Lux's expressd needs seemed to be met with a car. Heck, maybe even an SRX. I think people who don't know HOW to drive an SUV shouldn't be driving them."

So what exactly are you trying to imply in this post? That I don't know HOW to drive an SUV and so I shouldn't drive one? I mean really, in reading alot of the posts on this site, the ignorance of alot of you are really starting to come through. If I would've came on this board questioning my choice between 4Runner and RX330 and was a MALE, I'm sure all of you who like to question my driving abilities and ability to handle an SUV would not be adamant to steer me towards some ugly XC90, unreliable SRX or any sedan regardless of what I state my uses would be. But I came in here and simply because I am a woman most people are trying to steer me away from the 4runner to a minivan, or a wagon or sedan. Well I didn't come in here asking for advice on what type of vehicle I should choose because believe it or not this is not a rash decision like many of you like to suggest. I have been in the market searching for the right vehicle for myself since 2002, and my number one concern is reliability. I want a vehicle that has a proven track record of reliability, I don't spend money to watch it go down the drain or spend money on some depreciation hungry dodge, ford, mazda, mitsibushi or a vehicle/manufacturer with questionable reliability. And with those considerations in mind most of you would be hard pressed argue with me that the three companies that have proven themselves reliable, have excellent resale value and are very safe vehicles are Honda, Toyota, and Lexus. So with that being said, obviously a Volvo, Cadillac, Chrysler or whatever else will not fit my two most important criteria.

As for the fact that I am limiting myself to a SUV without considering a sedan. PLEASE! You all only know what I come here and tell you, what you don't know is that I've already looked at the Avalon, Camry, and Accord, and if one of you could get my dog's crate in the trunk or even backseat then PLEASE let me know. However, we do have a dog and are getting another one next month and we take frequent road trips where we have had to rent SUV's because we had no space for our luggage and our dog. So please get off your high horse and stop assuming you know my life and exactly what my needs are. And frankly who gives a crap if I didn't even have a dog, had no husband, never went anywhere but work, grocery store, mall and home and still wanted an SUV, so what?? So let's stop assuming and implying that we all know what is best for me because I do have a father and none of you are him.

As for the rest of you that have given me your opinions and suggestions, I really appreciate it, I take into account everything you all say and I am still weighing my options, I will let you all know once I come to a final decision.

HAVE A BLESSED DAY!

pat84 · December 2003

I do believe that most here are trying to help anyone who posts here. This is one of the better boards I have been on. I believe adp3 is looking for a SUV, too. I'm not sure he has one yet.
Those of us who have 4runners are very happy with them.

woodyr1 · December 2003

The system on the Toyota sounds very similar to the Nissan Pathfinder unit. Te transmitters could be manufactured by the same company. I would expect as TPM becomes more common, the valve prices will reduce. The $250 Canadian price would equate to a $US of the $150-200 range.

Thanks

onyeiii · December 2003

OK...I've watched this one for awhile, and many good points have been made.

I traded in an '00 Audi A4 wagon for an '03 V8 sport 4Runner. The audi was a great car - it wasn't overpowered, but it had plenty of "kick" when driving 80 for passing, etc. I could sit low and had a great feel for the road. It had the great audi quattro system (AWD). This was probably the best car I have ever owned. Unfortunately, it was a bit small for my growing family, the ground clearance was minimal, and, the killing blow, it couldn't tow. SO - off I go vehicle shopping.

The 4Runner is also a great vehicle, and handles very well. Did I say for a truck? No, but....
I'm only talking driving impressions here...I don't race, and I haven't had it on a track. However....you sit taller, which gives a wider view, but I for one am concious of the higher center of gravity. Braking distance is noticably longer. It has a larger turning radius, and is not nearly as "nimble" or "agile" as the audi. I *think* the X-REAS is great, but I didn't compare it with a non X-R 4R. I have driven LOTS of explorers, however, and there is no comparison. The rocking and rolling on twisty mountain dirt roads can make you sea-sick in an explorer. Am I happy with it? You bet! Do I love this truck? ummm....no. It is a competent, safe vehicle, and I don't think there is a better one that can do what it can do. It is very comfortable, can hold a ton of gear, and tow 5000 lbs. effortlessly. Dirt roads, mud, snow, are no barrier. My wife, on the other hand, loves this truck! So...go figure.

I choose the 4runner over any other comparably priced similar vehicles due to: X-REAS, the smoooth power and transmission of the V8, the reputation for reliability and resale, the comfort, the quiet interior, and the fairly roomy back seat. I have the cladding, btw, and am very happy with it. It has already saved the painted steel from numerous scratches, etc. from bushes and branches, not to mention parking lot and garage dings.

As one of the very wise men on these boards says repeatedly

"Drive what you like"

irishnd1 · December 2003

Does any know the money factor for the 4runner. I test drove one lastnight and really liked it. The stiker was $32848

alfster1 · December 2003

Well for a midsized SUV with great reliability, here are some good choices that will fit your bill

Toyota 4Runner (of course)
Lexus RX 330 (although you do lose a fair bit of luggage space with the severely sloped rear)
Toyota Highlander (car-like ride with mild off roadability and lots of space - trifecta?

)
Nissan Pathfinder (a little smaller, good power, great reliability).

As for the Volvo XC90, although MT SUV (CAR) of the year last year, is a nice vehicle and safe, reliability is something of concern. The same goes for the Caddy stationwagon.

Hope that helps a bit.

jaredmsd · December 2003

I thought your post was mindful and justified. For every board full of people who are thoughtful/knowledgable/kind there are still the bad seeds. Most of us here I'm sure respect your decision to go the true SUV route and are truly trying to be helpful. These same people I'm sure would give you the same advice if your name was 'manofluxury' (although we might question your name choice)!

I don't think anyone needs to justify themselves to someone else, so I'm with you on that one. I tell people that the 4runner is the best thing I have ever driven (all the cars I've driven where older), but if they are not going offroad or towing a lot, there might be some better options. If it turns out that they pick the 4runner b/c they hate minivans or they think the Pilot/highlander/pacifica/etc are weak and boring, then so be it, they are getting a great truck, and they got what they wanted. And THAT is the most important thing.

I don't see why you have to go offroad to own a 4runner, I personally offroad myself, and I don't mind a bit. But I DO mind if you go and put all the accessories for offroading on your 4runner that I can't afford and then not go... that'll piss me off.

-Jared

adp3 · December 2003

Lady: it's not really fair to call me sexist. In fact, I admitted that many of us don't know how to drive an SUV. Specifically, some of the stuff posters here have mentioned (locking differentials; inlocking; enabling DSC; disabling DSC; etc.) That is ALL I meant. I guess my7 point is, you are paying at least 5 grand for utility that you don't know how to use - so why do it?

Trying to fit a dog crate into a sedan IS a losing proposition, I agree.

How about a station wagon? How about a minivan? There are some great wagons out there. Try the Passat wagon. Try the Audi (talk about unreliable). Try the RX330 (we can all pretend it's an SUV, but we know it really isn't).

I'm not sure it's fair to say the SRX or the XC90 aren't "reliable." The SRX is so new we don't even have reliability data for it. Is the CTS unreliable? Has the XC90 been unreliable? We have at least one year to go on.

I can't imagine the 4Runner ride is better than the SRX, but I could be wrong. If someone is never gonna go offroad, why buy the 4Runner over an SRX or the RX330?

Lady: I am totally with you re Honda, Toyota, Lexus. When I started my search, I would only look at those cars, but I have learned that other cars are more reliable than I had assumed, so I broadened my search. No question that you can't go wrong with a 4Runner. Everyone I know that has one loves it. YOu did say you are driving an Accord, so I think it is fair for me to say that you are used to the ride of a sedan. The 4Runner will be a different ride. Not necessarily worse, but different. You may like it more.

And there's no question that you don't want to be putting dog crates into the back seat of your Camry, etc. You may be surprised at how nice some minivans are. My friend has a Sienna and it is a sweet vehicle. Plenty of places for me to put my juice box.

:-)

hotdogonastick · December 2003

hey guys,
i was wondering if you knew of any good off roading trails in lake tahoe in the snow covered winter? my friend and i are caravaning up to tahoe for the new years and want to do some snow 4x4ing. thanks in advance.

kjack100 · December 2003

adp3, have you ever even driven a 4Runner? Go back to the "I don't like SUV's, why do you?" board...pluuueeze. You can post to your hearts content over there about why cars and minivans are better than SUV's. Driving an SUV is not rocket science and requires no special licenses...geez.

The lady has obviously done her research and her decision has come down to TWO vehicles, the RX330 and the 4Runner. To continue to push a car on her, especially on the 4Runner board, is ridiculous.

By the way, wouldn't it be a lovely day for a 4x4 4Runner in the Tidewater area? My last two cents...if you can afford the RX330, you owe it to yourself to test drive the a Limited V8 AWD with all the bells and whistles. I believe that will make your mind up. I'll bet you'll have to pay full sticker (around $44K?) for an RX330. While fully loaded 4Runner lists at about $44K, which you should be able to get it discounted close to $40K. Have a nice day.

adp3 · December 2003

kjack: I did not say that cars or minivans are better than SUVs. (I am buying an SUV, ferchrissakes.)

(Why is it that people always read stuff into what people write on message boards?)

(Why is it that so many SUV drivers feel they have to defend their SUV purchase? Maybe it's not just SUV drivers. I know alot of Saturn drivers who do it, as well.)

I have driven a 4Runner. My buddy has a sweet, grey, Limited one. About 6 months old. Very nice ride. I like it alot. It's not what I want to drive, but I acknowledge that it is a great ride. If you read my posts, you must have missed that I have acknowedged it is a great ride and I completely understand why people love them.

ladyofluxury · December 2003

I have no problem with listening to anyone's opinions once maybe even twice concerning my decision. Like I stated previously I take into account everyone's opinions and find most of them very useful. My intentions were not to point a finger at adp3 or finger him out singly for his opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own. However, he is not the only one that has posted SEVERAL times that I need to go look at minivans, sedans or wagons when I specifically came in here and stated from day one that my two choices were RX330 and 4Runner. It was just incredulous to me how the ignorance of some people on these boards shined through in their comments on what I could or could not handle. Believe that I am a very well-educated woman and like it was stated before driving an SUV is NOT rocket science and trust that I can/will handle it.

ladyofluxury · December 2003

This has nothing to do with 4Runners but I did find it interesting. If any of you have time take a peek, you would be surprised at what you see because I certainly was..lol

Most Dangerous Drivers

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/30/pf/autos/bad_drivers/index.htm

adp3 · December 2003

Lady: thanks for letting me off the hook. I thought I WAS the only one. Sincerely, my comments were not gender-biased - I am out of my league when listening to lots of the folks here talk about auto lingo. What IS better to do in deep sand? etc. etc. I know we can all drive an AWD/4WD SUV to the market and back. I never intended to imply that you (or I) could not accomplish that. But I am going to get at least a few tips before I drive to Tahoe in a storm, or attempt any real off-roading. Hell, would YOU know you are supposed to deflate your tires before you drive out on the sand? (even in the 4Runner)

I didn't mean to offend you when you posted in the SUVs room. You just stepped into the room when it was hot and crazy in there, and got blasted. My bad on that.

ladyofluxury · December 2003

"Hell, would YOU know you are supposed to deflate your tires before you drive out on the sand? (even in the 4Runner)"

Didn't know that before but I found that out on here... However, that is exactly why I came in here to see what people were saying about the 4Runner, and to learn things that I might have not otherwise learned. If I do get the 4Runner it would be nice to take it out on the Outer Banks now that I have that tidbit of info.

There are no hard feelings adp3, like I said I respect everyone's opinions just like I hope they would respect mine.

highlander7 · December 2003

Highly recommend the new 4Runner. My wife prefers driving her Avalon but likes riding in the Runner. The RX330 or the 4Runner?
>>>>Whatever you like best, both are excellent choices.

I payed $39,571.00 for a 2004 4Runner AWD V8 on Wednesday.

MSRP $43,700.00
Invoice 38,565.00

Natural White with Oak Interior
OPTIONS:
SR Moon Roof
GY Curtain Air Bags
RF Rear Spoiler
RL Daytime Driving Lights
CF Floor mats
NF Rear Air Suspension with X-REAS
NV Navigation
WL Wheel Locks
WH Wireless Head phones

TDA 506.00
Dealer mark-up 500.00
Total $39,571.00

Documentation fee $149.00
Tag transfer $67.00

This is an outstanding truck, cannot say enough about it.

Good luck on your decision.

terrafirma · December 2003

Well there you have it. As I've stated many times, it's no one's business how someone uses or intends to use the 4Runner. I express my opinions on how I use it and hope it's informative.
A woman's money is as good as a mans- this I've said a long time ago around page 438 or something.

If someone is here asking about the 4Runner, divergent comments on sedans and wagons are counterproductive and can be considered somewhat rude.

If I go into a dealer and ask to see a 4Runner and he shows me a Celica and says it's a better fit for my lifestyle, guess what I would do with my foot and his [non-permissible content removed]?

Everyone here is trying to be helpful but I think we should stay on topic of the 4Runner even for the selfish reason that I, me, myself and I, am not interested in talking about any other truck:)

xjeepster · December 2003

At the risk of sounding like an infomercial.. I've had the opportunity to receive professional on- and off-road training in 2WD, 4WD and AWD vehicles, including an armored Suburban. Amazingly enough, the factory JGC AWD survived most students' inexperience during all racetrack, road, and off-road conditions. The others seemed middle of the road under all conditons, while the Suburban seemed too difficult for most, especially navigating the cones above 55 mph. Another JGC was used to retrieve student vehicles, and a farmer's tractor was used to retrieve that JGC. We only got to drool at the shiny new Rubicon and H-1 in town.

That being said, the moment I took the '04 Limited V8 for a spin, I sincerely appreciated the engineering and incredible thought Toyota put into this vehicle, sans sulfur smells. As a former resident of Japan, I never believed I'd consider any Japanese vehicle, including Lexus. But then I realized why this vehicle was not included in the training syllabus.. because it is incredibly addictive. Students might intentionally fail just to spend more time behind the wheel. ;-)

Most drivers may never experience the sand, snow, mud, rock, and other conditions this vehicle was built to handle. But even "just" for getting around town and up that low-height parking garage with the opportunity to leave pavement only on weekends or ice storms, this is a great all-round choice for combined safety, handling, ride, visibility, etc. in this price range. If you're concerned about fuel economy, truck-like ride, cargo capacitiy, bumper costs, and racetrack driving habits, then go for the Highlander, Pilot, or RX-330 and don't look back.

Believe me, the decision to give up my '02 Accord EX V6 commuter and '01 Cherokee Sport 4x4 (2H mostly) hobby/expense account is not easy. Just waiting a few more days for an "all-in-one" solution in Stratosphere Mica to arrive at the dealership is killing me. And of course it snowed today sigh. Despite potential problems with Toyota's new engine, I think the '04 4Runner Limited V-6 4WD is perfect for me. Won't start the V-6 vs V-8 discussion again. Just go for it!

Whatever choice you make, I highly encourage you to learn how SUVs in general, and the 4Runner in particular, behave during high-speed conditions. Otherwise, you'll be amazed how you will park a tree dead center in the middle of your hood (between E and E for Jeep owners) every time. Works perfectly well for the rear bumper too. Accords only seem to attract deer, or Integras in my case.

alfster1 · December 2003

You might want to check out treadlightly.org for trail info. good luck

alfster1 · December 2003

It is an interesting article. I remember reading it recently. I guess I am #2 in accident rates (although I don't agree). LOL

One negative about SUVs in general (at least in some metro areas) is that SUV parking may be charged at a higher rate than automobiles. This is true of some garages in NYC. Also, some garages don't have spaces large enough for some SUVs, which means that vehicles may be parked very close to each other, possibly leading to more door dings and other minor surface damage. Just FYI.

kheintz1 · December 2003

Ladyofluxury, you wrote "...I mean really, in reading alot of the posts on this site, the ignorance of alot of you are really starting to come through....I'm sure all of you who like to question my driving abilities and ability to handle an SUV..."

If, in your above rant, you were indirectly referring to some of MY comments from message #8721, then before you would paint me with this same brush, let me first quote how I prefaced and qualified those comments:

"...If you've not previously and extensively driven an SUV, there a few things you should never forget..." As I wrote my suggestions and comments, I did not know whether you (or most anyone else who would read my post) had any previous experience driving an SUV, and that's why I began this sentence with "If..." Perhaps I should have been more generic by saying "For those who may not..." I certainly never meant to offend or insult you or anyone else who might be new to this forum, but I evidently did so, and I apologize. In reality, I was simply trying to be helpful to anyone who MIGHT be new to, and unfamiliar with, SUVs.

TO ANY READER, REGARDLESS OF GENDER OR ORIENTATION: However, don't forget that this is a web-based discussion forum and not private email. Therefore, while many of us may write in a style that might occasionally seem directed at only one or a few members, the fact is that a vast number of people peruse this forum, including a steady number of newcomers. Thus, a great many of us often tend to write in a "stream-of-consciousness" fashion that's really aimed at anyone who might not have anything better to do than read our babblings and ramblings!

[When I wrote my comments in message #8721, I was merely trying to be HELPFUL not only to you, Lady, but also to ANYONE (regardless of their gender or orientation) who just might be unfamiliar with the benefits and RISKS of driving an SUV, and who might just be interested in what I see as being some helpful, basic SUV driving tips. For those who already know what I was trying to convey regarding elementary SUV safety, they are of course free to skip over this information and move on.]

FOR 1ST TIME SUV DRIVERS: Probably the single greatest factor implicated in serious, fatal and non-fatal SUV accidents involves driver inexperience and naivete. The classic scenario here typically involves someone (regardless of gender or orientation) getting behind the wheel of an SUV, yet they may have little or no prior training, experience, and understanding of just how markedly different SUVs handle when compared to a car. In my opinion, the likelihood of this accident-prone scenario may be further encouraged as SUVs become ever more DECEPTIVELY "luxury-car-like" in terms of their INTERIOR comforts and appointments, as well as (in many cases) their ever SOFTER, "car-like" riding (but not necessarily handling) characteristics. Such factors, when combined with clever and seductive advertising, can lull the 1st-time SUV buyer into a false sense of security and "sameness" when transitioning from a car to an SUV, especially to a more massive SUV. And, it is often the 1st-time SUV drivers who are most likely to be involved in not only fatal or non-fatal
roll-over accidents; but also accidents and/or collisions in which the SUV inhabitants survive (possibly unscathed) while those who were struck by one of these massive TANKS might not be so lucky.

About 4 years ago, at about this same time of year here in Columbus, OH., a beloved female co-worker and friend was minding her own business one evening, driving home in her little Honda CRX. She was stopped at a traffic light close to her home in the suburbs, when an 18 year old male, aggressively driving his Dad's Chevy Suburban, lost control of his vehicle, went left-of-center, and fatally injured my friend. The damage to the Suburban was trivial, but my friend is gone, and the teenager was eventually sentenced to 3-5 years for vehicular manslaughter.

In summary, I again apologize if my words in message #8721 offended anyone. I was merely trying to be helpful by reminding ourselves that piloting an SUV (especially a larger SUV) is really a very non-trivial responsibility, regardless of our gender, and regardless of our individual levels of experience and confidence. I consider myself to be only an intermediate to advanced-intermediate in terms of my self-perceived, on-road skills, but that could change for the worse in an instant, so I try to remain humble and reasonably cautious.

Allow me to wish each and every one of you a happy and safe holiday!

silverjetta · December 2003

I agree with you. My 4Runner has tight and surprisingly accurate steering (I though it's better than Highlander) but I have an instinct that this trait is only skin-deep. This is my first truck and I'm not off-roader, but had been an avid fun of on-road time trial. The excellent behavior of 4Runner could be deceptive and may evoke over-confidence in drivers. There is always danger when we go one step farther than we should and I'm not sure 4Runner sends appropriate signal before that. For me this is a quite scarely car. No matter how good it rides and steers, it is still toll and heavy truck under the skin. Luckly, my 4Runner somehow makes me feel very relaxed and I don't feel like speeding at all. I hope that I (and everybody) won't experience how it behaves over its limit.

xjeepster · December 2003

Right on! The 4Runner is a wonderful machine, and many engineers thought of creative ways to help keep this beast on the road. Also appears to allow pedestrians to walk away from our mistakes. But drivers should learn their machine's and their own limitations, particularly during various road and weather conditions. Amazing how only four tiny patches of tire are all that keep 4-wheeled vehicles on the road. Need to anticipate what those patches will do at the most inconvenient times.

Take your time and enjoy the ride. Besides, there's nothing more satisfying than helping a stranded, overconfident Jeep owner out of a mess. Except for maybe an ex-Jeep owner's satisfaction of safely and comfortably driving through the same nasty stretch of road.

adp3 · December 2003

terrafirma: I agree. It isn't right to come into a vehicle-specific forum and talk about some other vehicle. It's like going into a Red Sox message board to be barraged by Yankee fans spewing Boston hate. Actually, it's different than that, but you get my point. (meaning, it is probably appropriate to come in here and bash the 4Runner)

Lady came in here to talk 4Runners, not be convinced to drive something else. Then again, if the only people here are totally stoked on 4Runners, so they aren't "listening" to Lady....well, point taken, terrafirma, and no offense intended

It's just that the conversation is so much more civil and informed here than it is in "I Don't Like SUVs, Why do You?" Please don't make me go back!! :-)

smg1062 · December 2003

May I ask where you bought your 4Runner? Im looking as well and I live in the NYC area and I havent priced too many dealers yet to see how they fare with $$$................

alfster1 · December 2003

Ah, NYC area....if northern NJ isn't too far from you, you might want to check out Parkway Toyota in Englewood Cliffs, NJ. I got a great deal there and the experience was pleasant overall.

smg1062 · December 2003

May I ask where you bought your 4Runner? Im looking as well and I live in the NYC area and I havent priced too many dealers yet to see how they fare with $$$................

alfster1 · December 2003

No offense taken here

I do agree that any SUV does require a bit more care in driving. Unfortunately, for the average test drive, a potential new owner will not likely encounter any limitations in an SUV's handling (ie. longer stopping requirements, although the 4Runner has great brakes, more body roll, slower in the slalom, flipping over low guard rails, etc.) An extended test drive (if available) or renting an SUV for the weekend would be the best way to get a better feel for how it drives.

highlander7 · December 2003

smg1062,

I purchased my 2004 4Runner Limited from Toyota of Turnersville. They are located in Southern New Jersey about 15 miles southeast of Philadelphia. Two hour drive from NYC.

They will make you work for your price so bring your comparison shopping information. Overall they are an excellent dealership, good people to work with. Over the years I have purchased 11 new cars from this mega dealership (previously Honda's and Acura's) now Toyota's and have never been disappointed.

You live in the NYC area so I will recommend a dealer a little closer, Gateway Toyota in Toms River, NJ. Probably an hour drive south on the Garden State Parkway from the city. Drive another 20 minutes south of Toms River you are in Atlantic City.

You can deal with Gateway on the phone. Bought my wife's Avalon from them last year, a very easy no hassle deal. No other dealer in my area came within $500.00 of what they offered so it was worth the 90 minute trip. They sell many cars to folks in New York so it may be worthwhile to consider them.

You will find that a 4Runner Limited with all the options in the color you want may take some time to find. Gateway will order for you from Japan, not every dealer will take the time to do this.
Depends on how soon you need this truck.

Use this forum to ask questions, the folks will only be too glad to assist you. Eventually you may be one of the people offering advice.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

...Bob

terrafirma · December 2003

Most people here know someone that has been seriously injured in a car accident, fatal or otherwise.
Safe driving applies to a Ford Escort equally as well a Chevy Suburban. If someone is walking across the street and is hit, a 2600lb Escort is 2600lbs more than the human body was design to be hit with.

Safe driving applies to everyone and no more or less is required of a SUV owner.

I wish to get back on topic instead of people wishing to educate everyone on the merits of driver safety, A4's or minivans.

No one is trying to hurt anyone elses feelings ok? Lets move on.

kjack100 · December 2003

Ladyofluxury, I hope you wind up in a 4Runner. Your posts have really livened up this board.
Changing subjects, what changes would you make in the '05? Here's my list.

- Satellite radio option
- voltmeter and oil pressure gauges needed.
- easier access to the V8 oil filter(did they fix this on the '04?)
- lighted window controls
- a 12 volt cig lighter adapter in the dash not the console where you have to open a hinged compartent
- needs a hand emergency brake, not the foot one.
- need a neutral position available for the transfer case switch.
- needs a mute button for the steering wheel audio controls.
- needs an idiot buzz for when you leave your lights on in the non-auto position.
- cupholders in the rear where the (useless?)garbage sack holder is.
- color selection could be better.
- Did they put a lock out between "d" and "4" in the shifter on the '04?
- multi-disc player for the Nav system.
- ditch the slightly odd HVAC controls.

jcliffro · December 2003

I agree on the voltmeter/oil pressure gauges, lighted window controls, 12 volt in-dash adapter, hand brake, lights on warning, rear cupholders and would add side air bags and air curtains to that list. And I don't want to start War of the Cladding again on here, but I wouldn't mind seeing the gray cladding return as a no cost option on SR-5 and Sport models.

ladyofluxury · December 2003

"It is an interesting article. I remember reading it recently. I guess I am #2 in accident rates (although I don't agree). LOL

One negative about SUVs in general (at least in some metro areas) is that SUV parking may be charged at a higher rate than automobiles. This is true of some garages in NYC. Also, some garages don't have spaces large enough for some SUVs, which means that vehicles may be parked very close to each other, possibly leading to more door dings and other minor surface damage. Just FYI."

Alfster..you are #2?? What state do you live in? Remind me to never move there..lol j/k I did not know that about SUV's being charged higher rates to park, but I guess living in FL, and VA I never encountered paid parking. Was lucky enough to never have to work downtown etc. But that is indeed interesting...

alfster1 · December 2003

Heheh....yep #2.

Actually, my insurance rates are pretty good. I am paying $1250/year for 100/350 auto insurance on my 03 V8 Limited loaded.

Parking is usually a hassle in any city, but in NYC, where monthly parking can cost as much as rent in some areas, is a huge expense. I usually commute in my other vehicle unless there is inclement weather (like today)

ladyofluxury · December 2003

Thanks for the price info... Passed by Lexus and Toyota delearship today and decided to take a peek. Turns out they had one RX330 in stock and it was sold. To me, this basically means RX330=MSRP, but I did get a look at some of the features and drove it. It drove very nicely, was much lower to the ground than I expected and the engine was very quite. However, that slope back still seemed to be a probably for my visibility so this was definitely a setback. Not to mention my dog crate could not fit in the back with second row of seats up so this is weighing heavily on my decision. Also stopped by Toyota and drove a V8 4WD Limited, and DAMN that thing surprised me. Salesman even encouraged me to accelerate around corners to see how it handled, and I was VERY surprised at how sturdy and solid the vehicle felt. I told him though that when I was ready I would prefer to have a vehicle to test drive for a day or two to take around some of the more unforgiving ramps that I use to get to/from work. He told me this wouldn't be a problem. So I will have more to say when that time comes. However, I did find the seats to be extremely comfortable and the interior was very luxurious. The ride was very smooth and the acceleration was excellent. Liked them both thus far.

terrafirma · December 2003

Your initials are LOL!

Glad you are making headway on the decision. It's tough but sounds like a nice place to be in!

Sounds like the dog crate situation is a real dealbreaker. It was for me with the RX300 when it came out. The idea of having to flip down the back seats everytime my dog jumped in the back. was a real turn off. Besides the fact it's a total waste of space for no other reason than the look of the sloped hatch.

I am all for a stylish package but in this case, it was a deal breaker for me. The same thing bothered me about the Murano- although the Murano (to it's credit) doesn't actually slope inward much so the actual cargo space is fairly well maintained.

gsj3 · December 2003

Well, I would like to know if anyone has had this experience with a 2003/2004 4Runner. We just got a few inches of snow here in Jersey so I of course was all excited about trying out my 4x4 stuff. Now I should first state that I have owned many 4x4's over the last 24 years, Ford's, Jeeps, however none with traction control. Well, pulling into the parking lot at work I thought that it might be a good idea to try this thing out and get familiar with it. I had plenty of room to goof around so I, (while in 4x4 high-V6 Sport), put the ole girl in a mild 4 wheel slide at about 15 mph by cutting the wheel sharply. The vehicle began to push sideways for a bit. But when I decided to apply some accelerator in a familiar attempt to "pull out of a bad situation",...nothing...I mean nothing. It wasn't until the vehicle came to a complete stop that the engine responded. I believe the "system" detected slip so engine power was reduced or eliminated in this case and wheels ABS may have kicked in. Now, this isn't good. I can think of many situations where I for one, would want complete control of engine power. Sliding down a freeway embankment for instance, applying power in a front wheel drive or 4x4 has always been the way to get back on track when something goes wrong. Now I have to fool around with this some more, but what do you guys think? I don't believe that we can shut this off like we were in a Trans Am or Mustang.
Thanks!
Greg

bmw323is · December 2003

Toyota needs to dump the three holes in the dash where the guages are and use a nice flat panel display - white on black - that you see during the day! Whoever designed that dash should have been fired long ago, including the information display in the center of the dash. Neither are legible during the day with sunglasses and barely better without sunglasses.

Otherwise, it's a great truck.

bmw323is · December 2003

Greg, I'm with you. I would like to be able to turn off the stability controls to drive slowly in snow. Most performance cars allow you to turn it off for track driving. When I drive the 4Runner in snow, it takes all of the fun out and much of the driver's control. I suppose, overall, it's safer for the everyday driver, but I would much rather have the ability to turn the electronics off.

jbjones2 · December 2003

I've recently begun to shop for a new SUV. I currently drive a 1993 Camry and was actually shopping for a new Camry when I decided to take a look at a 4Runner at a nearby Toyota dealership. The 4Runner was impressive; however, I'm curious as to how this "truck based" SUV compares to models such as the Acura MDX, Honda Pilot, and Toyota Highlander. I haven't had the time (or the desire) to go to so many different dealerships. Has anyone else compared such models when shopping, and if so, how did the 4Runner compare?

highlander7 · December 2003

Totally agree with you on dumping the 3 hole dash design.

This morning I made a comment to my friend who purchased my 2002 4Runner Sport Edition that I preferred the gauge package on his new truck (my old) vs. my 04's. Maybe with time I will accept this, what other choice do we have?

The former design is very easy to read. They should have taken / borrowed the Sequoia or Land Cruiser's display rather then try to create this sort of retro look. They both have the oil pressure and voltmeter gauges, why not on the Runner?

And the information display is even worse. You are right, fire that bozo and his boss. At night it looks o.k. but in bright sunlight it is difficult to read, not logically designed.

Again, they can not please everyone, maybe most folks do not notice or care.

Overall I would not give up or trade this truck for anything with one exception, its big brother, the Land Cruiser.

If they made the 4Runner close to perfect with all the upgrades that you and kjack100 recommend, then who would buy the GX470 or even the Land Cruiser? I have had my new Runner for 4 days and now am thinking of what improvements the 2008 should have? ......time to get a life and enjoy this outstanding truck!!!

alfster1 · December 2003

I like the guages personally. I don't have any problem seeing them unless there is a lot of sunlight entering from the driver's window from the rear. I do agree that perhaps the lettering on the gauges might be improved it there was more contrast or if another "font" was used. Oil/volt meter gauges would be nice to have, but it looks like they have been phased out on more and more vehicles over the years.

The center information display would be nicer if there was more contrast (ie. more settings). I haven't had much problem with seeing this dispaly w/ or w/o sunglasses. I wouldn't fire the boss, but would send him back to the drawing board.

I do agree that with polarized sunglasses it can be impossible to see the NAV screen, although that is due to the lens design and not a fault of the screen.

The lit sterring wheel mounted controls are very dim. I wish that they could be adjusted, but I assume that Toyota intended them to be dim to reduce distraction while night driving.

I considered purchasing an LC, but figured that the 4Runner would be more than enough for my needs. Besides, the 4Runner is much more affordable and is more fuel efficient (but hardly anything to rave about).

bg31 · December 2003

Absolutely agree with bmw323is. Instrument panel with guages has very poor visibility. I cought myself turning on position lights before anybody else on the road just to be able to see the instruments. There is no sufficient contrast between numbers and instruments background. On top of that gauges are recessed too deep for daylight to reach. To my opinion even in the night instrument cluster should have more lights on it, I keep my brightness potentiometer always on maximum.

terrafirma · December 2003

In on road situations the traction control will save you and not be a hindrance.
If you want to turn it off for deep snow or off roading then lock the center diff and turn it off.

smg1062 · December 2003

I want BOTH. I have hedged on going back to buy my 4runner for a bit now. Other SUVs in the 40K range offer both with no problem. I find it odd and frankly dumb that Toyota cant put NAV and 3rd row seats in the 4runner. Surely they can figure that out, cant they??? Im hoping the late 04's or 05's will give that option. So.........as long as my other car holds out, so will I..........

smg1062 · December 2003

PLEASE offer NAV and 3rd row for Gods sake...........

kheintz1 · December 2003

I own an AWD, V8 Limited, and I've read my owner's manual several times over. When I was recently in the mountains of North Carolina during a snow storm, I knew to frequently LOCK my truck's center differential, since if you read the manual you'll learn that doing so DISABLES the "stability control system" with the AWD model, but whether it does so for the 4WD model is a bit more confusing (read on). At any rate, I was on treacherously icy and snowy mountain roads over the Thanksgiving holiday, and I never encountered any of the problems that gsj3 encountered, whether my center diff. was locked or unlocked (but it was frequently LOCKED!)

With regard to the manual, look first at page 138 and beyond (for the AWD model), or page 141 and beyond (for the 4WD model). Here, you'll note the following recurring message (quoted here from page 138):

"Use the center differential lock system if your wheels get stuck in a ditch, or when you are driving on a slippery or bumpy surface. When the center differential is locked, the vehicle stability control system is automatically turned off... because the function that controls engine performance [sic: traction stability?] interferes with the process of freeing your wheels...Use this [e.g., the center differential LOCKED mode] when you experience a loss of power [sic: traction?] such as wheel slipping, [that might occur while driving] in the center differential unlock mode..."

On the other hand, page 148 of the manual seems to contradict what's been quoted above, especially the yellow-highlighted cautionary note immediately below the heading "ACTIVE TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEM (4WD MODELS) which reads:

"Under certain conditions, full traction of the vehicle and power to the 4 wheels cannot be maintained, even though the traction control system is in operation. Do not drive the vehicle under any speed or maneuvering conditions which may cause the vehicle to lose traction control. In situations where the road surface is covered with ice or snow, your vehicle should be fitted with snow tires or tire chains. Always drive at an appropriate and cautious speed for the present road conditions."

And then, even more confusing is the bold-typed note on the same page 148 (again referring to "4WD models"), which says "Leave the [active traction control] system on during the ordinary driving so that it can operate when needed." Hmmm, this last statement would seem to indicate that the TRAC can in fact be turned off, but how? Even though it is not clearly stated, in my opinion the most likely "off switch" would be the center diff. lock/unlock switch!

Clearly, Toyota has not done a very good job of translating the owner's manual into english, and in fact I complained about this manual in one of my first posts here. This is why I've taken the risk of including my above [bracketed] re-interpretations of the poor translation of the manual, and which I suspect are probably good approximations.

Now, based on how poorly this manual is written and translated, several questions are obvious. First, might there in fact be some type of *difference* between the 4WD vs. AWD models with respect to the Active Traction
Control System (TRAC), which the manual may not have specified? (I'm currently rather suspicious of this possibility). Secondly, a literal interpretation of the poorly translated manual would seem to suggest that locking the center diff. disables ONLY the Vehicle Stability Control (VSC), but not the Traction Control (TRAC). However, I wonder if perhaps when the center diff. is locked, that maybe, both VSC and TRAC are DISABLED? In other words, when the poorly translated manual refers to "the vehicle stability control 'SYSTEM'..." is it actually comprehensively and inclusively referring to both VSC and TRAC, or is it literally referring to ONLY the VSC? If the manual is actually referring to both VSC and TRAC, this would certainly explain why the manual recommends locking the center diff. when driving on very SLIPPERY surfaces, and it would also explain the previously mentioned comment on page 148 which says "Leave the [active traction control] system on during the ordinary driving so that it can operate when needed." Needless to say, I would love to hear the considered opinions of others who are actually driving and living this vehicle.

By the way, I personally have no complaints about either the styling or visibility of the Limited's instrument cluster, guages, dashboard, mid-console data readouts, etc. I can see everything just fine, and in fact, I absolutely love this vehicle's cockpit, but that's just my opinion.

terrafirma · December 2003

---Locking the center diff (the switch on the dash) turns off the VSC.

---"VSC off" will light up in your instruments.

---Locking the diff/turning off the VSC is the same thing in the 4Runner. Locking the diff effectively is the "VSC OFF" switch.
It evenly splits the power 50/50 to the front and rear wheels.

---The system is the same in the part-time and full-time 4wd 4Runners.

---For loose traction conditions (taking one poster's deep snow/slow driving scenario) Locking the diff/turning off the VSC is the appropriate response for increased traction.

---In 99% of on road driving, leaving the system alone is the appropriate response for the safest driving.

---Locking the differential is mostly an off-road feature and owners need to understand it is not something you turn off and on on the road when there is a puddle or rain.

--- Locking the diff on road is worse in some conditions. The 4Runner will automatically find maximum traction (up to 70% power to the correct set of tires) instantly. The TORSEN center diff is the finest production limited slip diff available. Locking the diff (locking out the TORSEN) splits power 50/50 front/rear and if you happen to need 70/30 or 60/40, you have locked out that capability for the 4Runner to instantly react and change power delivery for maximum control.

--- Sand, deep snow, off roading situations-- these are appropriate areas to lock the diff/turn off VSC

---VSC, TRAC, DAC, HAC--- these are not features that make driving more fun. On the contrary, they often make things more boring because they increase safety and control.

Doing donuts in a parking lot might be fun. Toyota equipped the 4Runner to be safe.
No it's not a perfect system but the TORSEN diff and all the other features are the best on the market at the moment and I have enjoyed the use of some and hope never to use others.

I also like the interior. I think it looks and functions great. The only thing is that I wish they angled the clear plastic downward instead of upward (the clear plastic over the speed, tach, etc).

I will never blame a company for trying something different. Everyone complains about stuff looking the same but when something unique comes out, they have no patience for it and want the same old.
I applaud Toyota for going out and trying something new with the HVAC controls and other interior bits. Some work better than others but overall the interior is a 9 in my book.

highlander7 · December 2003

smg1062,

Unless you can get an answer on when the 3rd row seat with NAV will be available, this is another alternative.

How safe and reliable this seat is I have no idea, maybe a dealer could advise.

This installation must be done so that the seats removal is easily done. Access to the NAV system for upgrades or repairs needs to be available.

http://www.littlepassengerseats.com/toyota_4runner.htm

http://www.jatdesign.com/

http://www.shadetreeonline.com/cerullo/3rdseatsandconsoles.htm

http://www.ultracar.com/Add-On%203rd%20Row%20Seating/3RD%20ROW%20- JUMP%20SEAT.html

Toyota 4Runner

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