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Comments
Actually, based on your comments today and prior, I have to conclude you know very little about EPS systems. For example, your comment today that there's nothing that can be done to improve the steering feel of such systems. That's absolutely false. As was pointed out by someone else, EPS is computer controlled. Computers are programmed. Programs can be changed--and pretty easily. While I don't have direct experience with a 2009-10 Corolla that has had its EPS reprogrammed, I have read reports from reliable sources (e.g. automotive mags) that steering feel can be significantly changed/improved on an EPS-equipped car by simply reprogramming it, and I know of multiple car models on which this has been done. Whether that's happened for the 2009-10 Corolla, I don't know for a fact. But it is possible.
While I think the Defenders of the Toyota Faith can get a little tiresome, I think it's worse to go on and on about how terrible a car is and how terrible is manufacturer is because you don't like one aspect of the car. By now we all know how you feel about the Corolla and Toyota. About time to go get that replacement car and start posting on its discussion how wonderful it is, don't you think? Not to mention the peace of mind it will give you to drive a car every day that you enjoy driving, and feel safe driving.
Based on your summation it sounds like it is actually possible to own a 2009/2010 Corolla that is not experiencing any of these EPS problems. In other words, some of these EPS computer controlled systems might actually be programmed correctly from the manufacturer, right. This would explain why some of us "Toyota defenders" might be posting until our fingers get numb to explain our satisfaction with our cars steering. I don't know, don't you think that's plausible? That's why I really get anoyed when a poster thinks that for some reason, when they are having a problem with their cars they think everyone else should be having the same issues. Actually, I heard somewhere that for some reason the "S" models seem to be infected with this EPS problem more than the LE's, XLE's and the XRS's.
It seemed to me(as well as my two brothers that are ultra gearheads that drove mine) that there was a timing issue with it. Meaning from the time it received the feedback info. and made the calculations and applied them it was too late causing the driver to have to make the under/over correction.
This is why it happened at high(er) speeds and not low(er) speeds. If it was truly the programming it would have reared its ugly head even at low speeds IMO. And perhaps it did it's just at higher speeds a tiny margin of error becomes greatly magnified which is why you need to be going over 40-45MPH to have it start acting up.
I do not think toyota is out of the woods on this issue yet. Again, if I had to bet there will be a full blown recall on it(which may only apply to affected ones and not everyone). It may take toyota time to find out which EPS modules had a bad manufacturing run, but since they are the ones that make them it should be too hard to find out. Hopefully, this is the type of info the NHTSA is/will be looking into.
Just to be clear this is my opinion and experience driving it and I have no actual facts to back it up.
However... if all of this angst from some owners about the Corolla's steering were fixable via a programming change... I think it would have been done a long time ago. It's cheap, easy, and fast. Also, a mechanical problem would better explain why some owners (and test drivers, including moi) report no problem with the EPS, and others do.
As far as a mechanical issue I don't think that is it either. All toyota did was replace my EPS module and it is like driving a totally different car. There were no moving or mechanical parts replaced. Again, I think they had some bad runs manufacturing the EPS module. In going thru this process at no time was a mechanical issue raised by me or toyota. I was told - I need to get used to EPS, the roads cause it, tire pressure causing it, alignment causing it etc., Turns out that was not the case. I had a defective EPS module anyway you slice it IMO.
I agree if it was a programming error it would have been done long ago because it would be the fastest and easiest fix.
And no offense to anyone but I also think it is very peculiar that people that are NOT having an EPS issue would post so much on this particular thread. That is like me spending time on a dental site in a cavity thread saying I have no cavities. That doesn't do squat for people that do. Just sayin'
Well I guess if you enjoy reading about dental work and had good teeth you probably would post on a dental thread defending yourself if all you heard from certain posters is, since I have bad teeth all dentist suck and everyone of you have bad teeth also. You probably would continue to post and argue, not true, my mouth is fine.
Now getting back on topic; this site is not just a b**ching thread. This thread is also to inform others that not all Corollas suck like some would like you to think. It's also a great tool to express your own experiences with EPS. I think those of us that are informing potential Corolla buyers that the large majority of Corollas have EPS as intended and work just fine and are great little cars, is doing them a great service by not discouraging them from driving one just because others don't like it or don't want to take the time to take care of the manufacturing problem.
ALL members are welcome here.
Those who don't like the steering on their Corollas are welcome here.
Those who like the steering on their Corollas are welcome here.
Those who want to ask questions about others' positive & negative experience with EPS on the Corolla are welcome here.
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It doesn't surprise me. I have a pretty good idea that you have a couple of different types of people who do this.
2nd all my posts have been about my issue and my experience. I have never said all toyotas are bad. All I am trying to do is provide constructive criticism back to toyota. I know they watch forums. Don't interrupt that as bashing. Many times in the past for various companies I have worked for my personal experience is - The customer tends to know more about the issue than the maker because the customer uses the product everyday.
TercelTom wrote:
"I think those of us that are informing potential Corolla buyers that the large majority of Corollas have EPS as intended and work just fine"
This is were you and I disagree Tom. I think the problem is larger. This does not mean I am bashing toyota and all are bad. However here are some very unofficial numbers I have been able to glean. If you have or can find other numbers please let me know.
From Toyota's own website from their reported monthly sales I estimate they sell about an average of 30K Corollas per month in the US. This means they sell about 360K units/year. Note from year-end 2009 they state - Corolla recorded 2009 sales of 296,874 units.
Here is what the NHTSA is saying about this issue as reported back in Feb 2010-
"Approximately 363,000 2009 Toyota Corollas and 136,000 2010 Toyota Corollas are affected, the U.S. Department of Transportation said.
The problems emerged soon after Toyota introduced a new electrical system for its power steering with the 2009 Corolla model.
Safety expert Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies Inc. said that in recent years complaints relating to steering have surged.
"We look at complaints from 2008, there's about two complaints related to steering," said Kane. "All of sudden in 2009 model year, you see the complaints shoot up to nearly 200 complaints related to steering issues."
Owners have reported their cars suddenly veered side to side, even though they never turned the steering wheel.
In Japan today, Toyota's CEO Akio Toyoda again apologized — the third time in two weeks - as he revealed the Corolla problem and admitted the company had cut too many corners before he took over."
Based on those reported numbers IMO the issue has the risk potential of being much higher than just 1% affected.
It is up to toyota to do what is best for their customers. I find it very hard to swallow that a CEO would say we did cut corners, but will not issue at least a voluntary recall when you admit there IS a problem. And remember this EPS unit is not just in the corollas. It has the potential to affect other makes an models(i.e Pontiac Vibe for example uses it too). If little ol' me knows this then you can bet your bottom dollar toyota knows it too.Yet toyota commercials claim they spend a million dollars an hour on safety? Uh, might want to put some money elsewhere IMO.
That is why I am suggesting toyota should do a voluntary recall at the least. And to stop telling customers they have to get used to it or it's the alignment or it's tire pressure or the crown in the road, etc. and make sure all service managers are aware of this issue too. If the company CEO said in Feb 2010 there is an issue why 6-8months down the road don't service managers know? That is a huge turn-off to their loyal customers(as I have owned and driven toyotas for about 20 yrs. A 1990 pick-up, 1994 camary and now a 2010 corolla all bought new) that are having issues and trying to work w/ toyota to resolve them. I am also very well aware that car makers are not perfect and that issues are going to arise. It is how you handle it.
I think toyota is making a huge mistake by not doing this and just having customers 'look into it' is not how it should be handled IMO.
There is a serious tradeoff with these EPS systems. You do not get something for nothing and they are trying to cut costs to improve their profits and improve fuel economy with these systems. There not going to handle as well as a good hydraulic assist rack and pinion or electro-hydraulic. Not even remotely close..
No these variable assist column mounted electric steering systems are not designed to handle well, period. You are going to feel disconnected from the driving experience always. A computer chip cannot take the place of tactile feedback or having consistency between steering output and input. I don't care how many people spit out how much bologna, this is fact.
I have driven several of these cars with my own being the one I have driven by far the most. When you drive one of these cars it feels like something is broken or seriously wrong with the car. Take it to the dealer and they will tell you it drives normally and handles fine. All this other crap about the "fix" is bologna. Toyota admitted that the "fix" would change the feel but not improve handling. This is no surprise to me.. Once again no such thing as a free lunch. You don't get something for nothing. In this case the something is cheap cost to the manufacturer and slightly improved fuel economy. The con associated with this, that unfortunately the consumer will bear, is severe chronic poor road handling. .
There is NO free lunch and there IS a serious tradeoff with these EPS systems.
FYI there is not a damn thing Toyota can do to these cars to make them drive and handle well with a recall. What the TSB "Fix"? Pipedream on if you think there is.
A few weeks ago i drove the corolla to my child at college 200 miles away. I felt no perceptible difference in the steering/handling. Everything was smooth for all 200 miles. i could not tell if i was driving a car with EPS.
So to state that all corollas with eps have a built in, non correctable deficiency is just not true.
I do not know what will happen with the car in the future, but for now, my child and i are thrilled with the purchase.
When you say you didnt feel any perceptible difference. Difference to what? A normal hydraulic rack and pinion steering system? So you couldn't tell a difference between this car and its steering and any other you have driven? Really?! Are you kidding?
Yeah, we know! Because your Toyota Corolla is infected with a bad EPS module you think everyone else's Corolla is also. You've had at least five people try to tell you that their cars are fine but you just won't accept that will you?
Well see, that's where you're wrong (again) Biff. This is an EPS thread, not just for your complaints about the EPS but for those of us that love it just the way it is. Get used to it, it's the wave of the future in cars.
And knowing all you do about EPS systems, and knowing that the best that can be achieved with the Corolla's steering is "awful"... you bought one anyway? Something doesn't add up here. Hard to fathom why anyone, especially someone who is knowledgeable in these kinds of steering systems, would put themselves into such a car. Or, didn't you know before you bought the car that it has variable assist column mounted electric steering? Long test drives are a really good idea for car buyers, also. I notice you are taking that approach for your next car, yes? Good idea.
I don't know you'll find many reviews saying the Golf/Jetta, with EPS, are rated poorly on road handling. Having owned a Golf (nee Rabbit) with EPS, I can personally say it's handling was excellent for a relatively inexpensive FWD car.
A more recent example that EPS can be done right:
Another source of worry is the all-new Electric Power Steering (EPS) system that’s making its debut in the 2011 5-Series. BMW has long produced had some of the best steering systems in the business.
Fortunately, all of our worries—and most of the worries we can think of for BMW’s enthusiast base—are for naught. First off, the steering in the new BMW 5-Series is the best you’ll find in a sedan its size; it’s one of the best systems yet—with a great, natural feel on center and plenty of road feel in tight corners. There’s none of the disconnected, ‘digital’ feel that’s present in some other electric power steering systems.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1041861_first-drive-2011-bmw-5-series-
But as you know, there's still some cars out there w/o EPS. Hope you find one to your liking.
As far as these reviewers go. I do not trust car reviewers in general. Consumer reports is absolutely ridiculous when it comes to car reviewing. It isnt even possible to get any idea about what a car is really like from reading any of their publications. Diplomacy is their main concern. Many of these car reviewers are extremely biased. Even more so the so called "reputable" ones. At the very least theyre extremely diplomatic to the point where even reading their review of a car is useless as the reader is unble to really get any idea of what the car is really like.
And, Ford & VW (among many others) have EPS racks that handle much more nicely than the Toyota systems, so NO it isn't just EPS that instantly means bad handling.
Like I've said, it goes back to the tuning of the system; Toyota in the last two decades is known for soft-riding cars that don't have the handling dialed in for a person who actually likes to drive -- why would they change that now?
They have numb steering, pillowy suspensions, and lethargic responses from throttle and brake pedals, because the vast number of appliance-car shoppers like it that way. The people who buy these don't actually like to drive, instead, they seek the most comfortable transport from A to B, and the Toyota generally meets that desire.
I like a soft comfortable riding car as well. Doesnt have to be a sports car for me. Struggling to maneuver the car is not comfortable. I have been in a large number of soft riding comfortable cars that drove well. My grandmothers old Buick for example. Her Chrysler Fifth Avenue was pretty ok as well. Those cars handled superbly compared to the new Corolla. The Corolla is not a soft riding comfotable car. There is nothing comfortable about the car. I personally enjoy comfort and it can be simple comfort and I can tell you the Corolla is not it.
You do have a lot of people who do not like to drive who buy cars. I would say that I used to love getting out and driving but I'm not a driving enthusiast in the sense that I like to get out and drive fast. I'm not into cars like the street racing crowd. I do however like basic transportation that makes it easy to get from A to B. To me that is a pleasure. It makes getting out enjoyable. I'll make this very clear. This car does NOT make it easy to get from A to B and if you have to go to C, D and E as well then your in for a very nervewracking and tiring experience. I like a car to make it very easy to transport myself around and do all the work for me. My last car was a Dodge Neon and did a perfect job of getting me from A to B in comfort. It was a very cheap car that I bought brand new for $11,500 before tax title and license. I would have liked a better car but it worked just fine and I had no complaints.This Corolla does not even come close to that car in terms of road handling or comfort.
I didn't write that quotation. I mistakingly did not label it as written by someone else. However you are wrong in your response. This message board is not just for people who are having problems with the EPS in their Corollas and "people" who love the EPS, yeah right. This message board is for anyone even those who play games by misrepresenting themselves. For whatever reasons. Happens every single day all over the internet and is a very common occurence in all types of message boards. No actual paranoia required to understand this as fact. It is a very open message board to all people regardless of honesty or dishonesty. The terms of service protect everyones right to log on and say whatever they want truth or lie , so long as they dont spill the beans, and also prohibits people from pointing out their suspicions about people when they clearly recognize this.
Not true; as judged by the number of posters on this thread who had their EPS modules adjusted or replace to their complete satisfaction, and also by those of us who are 100% satisfied with our EPS just the way it is.
Biff wrote - "The Corolla is not a soft riding comfotable car"
On the contrare, I can't say enough about the abilty to move the drivers seat up, down, front or back. It has an anjustment to suit eveyone's needs. Not to mention the luxurious velour type seats.
Biff wrote - "I like a car to make it very easy to transport myself around and do all the work for me"
This EPS steering couldn't be any easier to steer. I could parallel park my new Corolla literally with one finger.
Biff wrote - "My last car was a Dodge Neon" "This Corolla does not even come close to that car in terms of road handling or comfort"
That's funny,lol ! If my new Corolla drove like a Dodge Neon I would have dumped it a long time ago. Keep your Corolla, it'll outlast three of your Neons
Problem is, you can steer it up a curvy road with one finger too; terribly overboosted.
Interesting, can this be the pot calling the kettle black ???????
And what do you mean by caught on to me? Are you accusing me of something? That's pretty childish don't you think. Why, because I like my new Corolla and like Toyotas in general ? ? ? If I said it once, I said it a hundred times, my car's EPS drives fine just as hundreds of thousands of other new Toyota Corollas do. Now I feel for you, because you have one of those that seems to have a problem, but if you continue to generalize and state that every new Corolla out there is faulty just because your is, I will continue to rebut it as an untruth, because it is. So bring it on, cuz I got news for you, I ain't going no where! For every Corolla bash you post, I'll be there as an honest Toyota Corolla buyer multiple times over to give it my honest opinion.
Any more personally-directed comments, and we'll consider which members' permission to post in this discussion serves the best interest of our other members or not. At this point, reading the past ~20 messages, recent conversation has been little more than a personal debate.
No one has been "caught." I already looked behind the curtain, and there's no one there, so knock it off.
here's a hot tips:
if your post contains the word "you," it might be a personally-directed post.
if a post contains a pejorative adjective to describe another member, it is most definitely a personally-directed post.
Conversation needs to:
Stick to the issue, stick to the vehicle, stay away from each other.
Thanks,
Housekeeping staff with a brand new broom
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Z
I'm sure we can all agree to move forward and stay on track!
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One day you'll aspire to pat's legacy...
I swear, there was nothing that went missed in 30 minutes or less! :shades:
Actually I had replied but for some reason it went on Facebook and not here. The 2008 had an optional EPS if you ordered it. At the time I had not ordered mine, but when I went to the dealer regarding the issue the manager said that the handling or feel of the car was reconciled by the "Vehicle Stability Control" feature and I replied it had not.
Now for further news.....the pulling and meandering has been a quote "Phenomenon" that has been going in the Toyota brand. According to Automotive News.com....
"In all, the complaints cite a total of six accidents and ten injuries due to the phenomenon, which is described as a strong pulling to the side, like being buffeted by crosswinds, requiring two hands on the wheel to maintain a straight path.
Beginning with the 2009 model year, Toyota replaced the previous hydraulic power steering unit in the Corolla with an electric one. Newer electric power steering systems typically include logic to correct for environmental variables like the crown of the road as well as crosswinds, although we're not sure if the system in the Corolla does.
The Corolla from those model years is already covered by both of Toyota's two major accelerator-related recalls—for pedal entrapment (floor mats) and for an issue with a sticky pedal mechanism.
The review stage might presage a formal investigation, which then might eventually prompt a safety recall."
http://autoguide.nascar.com/blog/1042430_toyota-corolla-being-reviewed-for-poten- tial-steering-issue
and in further news in the article aforementioned....
"The 2009 and 2010 Toyota Matrix hatchback is closely related to the Corolla and thus might also be affected, as might the Pontiac Vibe. Both remain covered by the other two accelerator-related recalls.
According to Ward's, the supplier JTEKT Corp. produces electric power steering units for the Corolla, Matrix, RAV4, and Venza, along with the Lexus RX 350 and Pontiac Vibe. Previously, Toyota sources have confirmed to TheCarConnection.com that its EPS units follow a similar design across applications."
Did you hear about the guy who had his whole left side cut off in an accident? You didn't? Well, he's all right now.
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I wasn't on morning weather at my local ABC affiliate for nothing... I stopped short of the bow-tie though.
Been running this car pretty constantly for work, got 125,000 km on it in 20 months. I was reluctantly just living with the vague steering on the highway because everything else on the car is just fine, but decided to have another go at it since I had to get the 2nd phase of the accel pedal recall done anyway. So, I got the same story from the dealer as I have the last 2 times - nobody else has ever complained, I'm the only one who has a problem, etc etc. They wrote right on the work order to check steering at highway speeds, but when I got the car back it had gone precisely 4.3 km - not enough distance to even get to the highway, let alone drive to the next exit. Some highway speed road test that was.... The tech then produced a tech service bulletin that he said they just found out about. He read from but wouldn't let me have it - it refers to "some customers having complaints about the steering feel". The fix recommended is to replace the EPS computer and do an alignment. The tech made a big deal about how this might not fix the issue. The cost to do this: a mere $817.00. I told him that for that cost, I'll just live with it a bit longer till I can dump the car on a trade-in, and it'll be for a non-Toyota product - made me feel better to vent, but he didn't particularly care. Obviously this particular dealer (Milton Toyota) has no intention of helping me out, so I'm going to try and escalate it through Canadian head office. I dunno, maybe the Canadian response is lagging the US response on this issue - as I remember, they lagged on the accel pedal recall issue.
Further info:
1. No, I'm not imagining it. This is the 12th vehicle our family has had, and the only one that's driven like this. Our Dodge van drives better on the highway!
2. What I didn't realize was how much I'd gotten used to it. Had one of my kids driving on the highway, and he was constantly correcting left/right/left.
3. As other posters have said, yes the Corolla is a mildmannered soft handling car and yes I agree that the EPS is light and effortless in city driving and parking, and yes the Corolla is still a very good car compared to a lot of the competition. The only significant complaint I have about this thing is the highway steering effect. If I can somehow get that fixed, I fully intend to run this car till it dies, same as I did with my last two Corollas.
4. Advice to others: Buy a Corolla if you want to but do not buy one 09 or newer unless you personally test drive the exact car you're going to buy on the highway for an extended period at full cruising speed!! In hindsight, this is probably where I made the fatal mistake. I test drove a Corolla CE demonstrator, liked it, had no issues with the handling that I recall. I thought about it for a week or so, then when my old one started to make those death-rattle sounds I went back and bought one off the lot, but not the one I'd driven. Won't do that ever again.
Gerry A