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Memories Of The Old GM And Its Cars

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Maybe one of the back windows was rolled down a bit. That tends to set up a resonance in most cars, unless you crack open a front window to help balance it out.

    Also I think to a degree, refinement is subjective, and just depends on what you're used to, and your preferences. For instance, I think most 4-cyl engines, even the more refined ones, sound worse than even a mediocre V-8. Unless that V-8 is grossly out of tune and on its last legs, that is.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    today I took a walk during my lunch break, and saw an early 80's Cutlass sedan in the parking lot. Best way to describe the color is faded metallic pea. I've seen it around before, so it's nothing new. However, it seemed different today. Then it hit me...all the rust on the driver's side had been taken care of, and there were spots with primer paint and smoothed-out bondo. On the passenger side, the rear quarter had been rusted out really bad. Well now, it looked like someone had cut the rusty part out. There was still a huge hole there, even bigger before since it was cut out, but it was sprayed with Rust-Oleum or POR 15 or something to keep it from getting worse.

    So it looks like this thing is becoming a work-in-process, and the owner tries to fix it up. I know it's a car that'll never be worth anything, but it was still kinda cool to see the owner care about it enough to try fixing it up, rather than just dumping it.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I believe I've seen people complain about the noise cancellation in the Odyssey also.

    Odd that people complain about my 3800s which work just fine and their motors have to have noise cancellation, for a V6 at that? :P

    My 3800s and 3300 motors have given excellent service for hundreds of thousands of miles total so far. The 4-cylinder before that was a little noisy, but not nearly as noisy as the Hondas I see on the roads.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, ALL 4-cylinder engines sound like an old Briggs & Stratton to me and that includes those made by the glorious Toyota and Honda!
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    I didn't realize the 3.9 was a 60 degree V, for some reason I thought it was based off the 90 degree 3800. It should be better than the 3800, but I've never read anything good about it in terms of refinement, performance, or fuel economy. In the Impala the 3.9 still doesn't match Honda's 3.5 in power or fuel economy, let alone refinement. GM's 3.5 can match the Accord v6's fuel economy but it's short 60hp & 40 ft-lbs of torque

    But the Honda is the upgrade V6 and the 3.5 Chevy V6 is the base model, not either of the upgrades: 3.9 and 5.3. The Impala is a bigger car.

    My '96 Buick 3.8 SC has 282 ft-lbs to the Accord's 254.

    How often would you floor the 214 hp chev 3.5 and want for more in your typical use? Since I never been over 4000 rpm in my 240 hp 3.8, 211 hp might be enough for me in a 4 door sedan.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well, I've never heard this noise you're talking about.

    The Honda V-6 is much more advanced to be sure than a 3800 but the 3800's were and still are a long lasting and smooth running engine.

    I've seen quite a few with over 200,000 miles still running well.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I have to stay out of that forum.

    You are making a bad thing out of what Honda did to keep the V-6's as smooth and quiet as possible?

    I stated this in that forum only to incur the wrath of a couple of posters and the host.

    I have NEVER ONCE felt this, heard this or had a customer mention this. They guys in the Service Department have NEVER heard of this either.

    Tire noise, you betcha! Honda seems to buy the noisiest tires they can find.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >You are making a bad thing out

    I'm pointing out to those who continually bash a 3800, of which I've had 3, that there may be another side to the engine which they feel is perfect. I've not ridden in a VCM car and probably won't test drive an Accord with it anytime soon. I rode in an Odyssey a couple of years ago to Cincy. I assume it was V6 and only noticed it seemed to have a comfortable Buick ride, which surprised me.

    This forum is titled Memories of the Old Gm and Its Cars. So I'd rather see it be one forum which minimizes the complaints and talks about pleasant memories about the old GM without the typical bashing allowed.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    that time passed it by.

    GM sorted out the old 231 junkiness around the time that the major Japanese companies were only beginning to use V6s in the first place. GM never really did anything significant with the engine after the GNX died, while its competitors were embarked on continuous improvement. Heck, GM itself finally made the blizzard of pushrod sixes wholly redundant with the HF 3.6 line.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    This forum is titled Memories of the Old Gm and Its Cars. So I'd rather see it be one forum which minimizes the complaints and talks about pleasant memories about the old GM without the typical bashing allowed.

    Well I had a pleasant GM memory today, one that's less than an hour old. I went out to the garage, and look at what I was able to coax out, under its own power!
    image

    And I swear I didn't just push it out, because, even though it may not look it in that pic, but it would be a real pain to push it back in, because of that edge where the gravel meets the concrete!

    On a whim, I went out to the garage to see what the car would do. I turned the key, without touching the gas pedal, and the car, for lack of a better term, barked once, and then died. I pumped it once, turned the key again, and it barked again and died. Pumped it again, turned the key for a few seconds, and nothing. Then did it one more time, and it fired right up.

    I let it run for a little while, turned it off and let it sit, turned it back on, just to see how it would act. Cut the idle back just a little. Then took it for a spin around the neighborhood that I stretched out to around 10 miles. Timed it from 0-60 twice. First time was the usual. Around 11 seconds. Second time I got it down to about 9, but that was a downhill grade. :blush: Heck, all things considered, I guess 11 seconds isn't bad. It weighs about 2 tons, only has a 170 hp 350, and the biggest handicap of all is probably the 2.41 axle. Stomp on it and you can tell the car WANTS to go, but the ratio just won't let it.

    I feel kinda bad that I'm not taking this car to the GM Nats in Carlisle this year, almost like I'm cheating on it or something. But, I've taken it there for the last 4 years, so I figure this year it's my Catalina's turn.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Hey, I didn't bash the 3800! Quite the opposite. I said that in my opinion it was one of the best if not the best engine GM ever made.

    Yes, it may be a dated design but so what? They are tough engines that last a long time. I'll say it again in case you missed it. They are powerful, smooth and get decent gas mileage.

    About the only weak link I can think of is the fact they can blow intake manifold gaskets which aren't cheap to fix. Not a real common thing with these but it can happen. They can also blow their oil sending units which are a nasty b***h to get to.

    Since GM cars have such lousy resale value, any GM car with aq 3800 engine would be a lot of car for the money!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    And if it's any consolation, I've heard that they usually blow that intake manifold around the 90K mark, if not higher. I forget what years are the most prone, but for some reason I'm thinking 1997-2002? Or that might just be wishful thinking, since my Dad's Regal is a 2003. :surprise: Supposedly the supercharged 3.8's aren't prone to this problem, as they were beefed up to handle the extra power. I've heard with them though, that it's not uncommon to need a new supercharger by around 100,000 miles.

    One caveat I should add though, about the 3800, lest anyone decide to dabble in the disco era...the 1975-84 era 3.8 was crap. They had weak blocks that were just simply cast too thin. A 3.8 weighed around 375 lb, compared to 425 for the Chevy 200/229/267, and a whopping 375 lb for the Mopar slant six! I think the old Chevy 250 straight-six was around 450 lb. Well, the technology just wasn't there at the time, to make an engine that lightweight and durable at the same time. They also had a lot of issues with lubrication. Lots of right-angle passages that cut down on the oil pressure and were easily blocked. It's often said that with the older 3.8, it was good to drive it down a bumpy road every once in awhile, just to splash-lubricate everything! :P

    Well, for 1985, the 3.8 got a much stronger block that eliminated those right-angle passages. IIRC, the turbo got this block a year or two earlier. The 4.1 never did get it...they just dropped it after 1984. I think the 3.0 got the stronger block as well for '85, and the 3.3 variant offered from around 1989-93 was also pretty beefy.

    So I guess if you want the best of the best, get a 1985-96 3.8, or a 2003 or newer, presuming I'm correct on the year they fixed the intake manifold issue. I don't think I'd be afraid of a '97-02 either though, provided it appeared to have been well cared for.
  • mp67rivmp67riv Member Posts: 14
    I have owned a 92 Bonneville SSE, 97 Buick Riviera, and 01 Bonneville SSEi. Each had a 3800, two of them supercharged. IMO, the 3800 performed very well in all three cars...smooth, strong, and always willing to go. I sold the 92 Bonne at 120k, and the engine was still going strong. I didn't keep the 97 Riv very long because I didn't fit in it very well...hated to give that one up. The 01 SSEi had the intake manifold gasket problem, but I think that was a GM materials/design issue and not an engine issue. Whatever GM did to redesign the manifold gaskets in the late 90s negatively impacted the reliability across a number of its V6 engines. That was a real bonehead move!!!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Hey, I didn't bash the 3800!

    You are right. You didn't. Exactly right. I was alluding to a few others who have their opinion of the 3800 and denigrate it as though there is no good side to the 3800.

    I was wrong in putting a response to the negativity of a couple of posts in my reponse to your post. That made it seem like I thought you were being negative. But you had good things to say about the 3800.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    The 3800 went through several variations. I've always cringed when people tried to call the 3800s by the 3.8 L name.

    I've seen people post that the Series II is a completely different motor than the Series I with a different stroke and bore. I have not checked on that information. I know that my 03 has a different oil pan than the 1998 leSabre. The Series II is when the upper manifold changed design. Also DexCool came along--the antifreeze in conjunction with Texaco if I have the history right.

    The Series III 3800s have a metal upper intake and were used the last couple of years in LaCrosse and Lucernes.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    The Catalina deserves to come out and play.

    The LeMans probably looks about as good as it did when nearly new.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    The Catalina deserves to come out and play.

    Yeah, that car's been on the sidelines for too long. The last time it was even in a car show was back in 2002, at a small local thing that they put on every August at the horse track in Laurel, MD. Which reminds me, I think I'm going to enter it this year. There are a couple other local shows, that I think I'll put it in this year, too. Might as well get my money's worth out of it!
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Heck, ALL 4-cylinder engines sound like an old Briggs & Stratton to me and that includes those made by the glorious Toyota and Honda!

    The 2.0 liter M10 in my 2002 and the 1.8 liter M42 in my Club Sport are smooth as silk. I also prefer an inline six to a V6.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    From Wikipedia: "Introduced in 1995, the Series II is quite a different engine (than the Series I). Although the stroke for the 3.8 L engine remained at 3.4 in (86 mm), and the bore remained at 3.8 in (97 mm), the engine architecture was vastly changed. The deck height is shorter than the Series I, reducing weight and total engine package size. This required that the piston connecting rods be shortened 1 in (25 mm), and the crankshaft was also redesigned. A new intake manifold improved breathing while a redesigned cylinder head featured larger valves and a higher compression ratio. The result was 205 hp (153 kW) and 230 lb·ft (312 N·m), better fuel economy, and 26 lb (12 kg) lighter overall weight (to 392 lb (178 kg)). The 3800 weighs only 22 lb (10.0 kg) more than the High Feature V6, despite being an all cast iron design.

    The new intake manifold greatly improved breathing. To meet emissions standards, an EGR tube was placed in the intake manifold to reduce combustion temperatures. This increases fuel mileage by a substantial margin.

    The 3800 Series II was on the Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 1995 through 1997.
    The L67 is the supercharged version of the Series II L36 and appeared in 1996, one year after the normally-aspirated version. It uses the Eaton Generation III M90 supercharger with a 3.8" pulley, a different throttle body, fuel injectors, cylinder heads, and lower intake manifold than the L36 uses. Both engines share the same engine blocks, but compression is reduced from 9.4:1 in the L36 to 8.5:1 for the L67. Power is up to 240 hp (180 kW) and 280 lb·ft (380 N·m) of torque. Final drive ratios are reduced in most applications, for better fuel economy and more use of the engine's torque in the low range."

    My L67 turned 172k this week. I have the supercharger oil and check the level once a year. I've never heard of SC failures aside from running dry on the oil. I also heard that if the SC's fail, the belt can be taken off and the engine will still breath OK. there is a separate belt just for the SC. I also have the Dexcool it came with in '04 and probably the original belts. I should probably add towing to my insurance policy. I just took full coverage off in April at age 13.5 and we have had 3 hailstorms since. Luckily they have been under dime sized each time. 15 miles away they had softball sized hail 2 weeks ago. Not many rear windows left in cars after that one.

    Trouble with these late 90's highly optioned cars is that everything is expensive if it has to be replaced with new. Dual zone CC, heated seats, superchargers, TC trannys...all expensive to fix.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Thanks for the summary of the changes I to II. Check your carspace email in your carspace page (upper left corner of this page is a link) for a message about the 3800s.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Is this the Honda V6 you're referring to as refined? It has to use noise cancellation to mask the VCM engine?

    I thought I clicked on the old GM cars Edmunds board. :P

    I have owned many GM vehicles over the years and they all had V8's. All of these engines were generally smooth, BUT (always has to be a but) one engine in a Chevy Caprice had to have a soft camshaft replaced out of warranty. Chevy dealer was able to get Chevy regional rep to pick up half the cost of repair.

    In terms of refinement and engineering, GM cannot hold a candle to Honda/Acura.

    Owned GMs AND Hondas/Acuras at the same time over 18 consecutive years and was able to make comparison of superiority of Honda/Acura engineering/quality/reliability over GM. This is unlike some folks who "only" own a car or cars from one major manufacturer most of their lives and cannot speak with authority from an ownership point of view on brands they never owned.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    So I'd rather see it be one forum which minimizes the complaints and talks about pleasant memories about the old GM without the typical bashing allowed.

    Friendly suggestion. Why not start a new board with a title such as: "Pleasant memories (only) about the old GM and its vehicles". Having owned many GMs, I can think of lots of good things to say about my former vehicles.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    That's what this discussion should be about.

    If Steve wants to start a new one, that's good.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Keep moving. Nothing to see here.....

    I can't believe we are back in the 3800 engine discussion. I thought we'd killed that one years ago....

    Carry on.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Keep moving. Nothing to see here.....
    >I can't believe we are back

    Just use your scroll wheel to skip posts you don't want to read. That's what I do.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Most of the people here haven't been around that long.

    Just us dinosaurs.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    True enough.

    For those who weren't here back then we thrashed the whole push rod vs overhead valves to death in here.

    The 3800 is a great engine. Is it leading edge technology? No, but it does its job wonderfully and quietly.

    Pencils aren't leading edge technology either but I still appreciate a good one.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Sometimes change isn't necessary.

    That engine started life in 1962 in Buick Specials. They vibrated and shook in their mounts. Over the years they added balance shafts and refined that little engine into what is today.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I think, though, that the 3800 is out of production now.

    Maybe it's closest counterpart, at least in certain ways, is the Chrysler Slant Six, although aside from their different configurations, the Slant Six started as an excellent engine, for its day, from the get-go. Instead, the GM 3800 became an equally strong, durable engine over the years, and after several modifications completely transformed it.

    Is that a fair characterization?
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Production ended in August 2008. there was a ceremony to celebrate the 26+ million of them that were made. This sites' ridicule of the use of it in the LaCrosse led to it's demise.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Maybe it's closest counterpart, at least in certain ways, is the Chrysler Slant Six, although aside from their different configurations, the Slant Six started as an excellent engine, for its day, from the get-go.

    Well I guess the Mopar Slant six was sort of the opposite of the Buick V-6. It started off great, but then got worse as time went by. Now FWIW, I don't think the original Buick V-6 from the 60's was a bad engine...the 198 I think it was, and the 225 version that lasted from around 1964-67. They were probably rough, where in contrast a Mopar slant six would be so smooth that you'd think it stalled out on you! Funny how with a foreign car, when you can't hear/feel it run it's a selling point, but with a domestic if you can't hear it running it's like damn, did it stall out again? I have to admit, that's happened a few times with the 360 in my NYer.

    Anyway, the Buick V-6 got messed up somehow around the time when the tooling got sold to Jeep, and then when they got it back for 1975, and enlarged the bore so it could use the same pistons as a Buick 350. It was crap for about 9 years, but then GM got on the ball and turned it into a good engine, and kept improving it.

    In contrast, I think the last really good year for the Mopar slant six was 1972 or 1973. Since its inception in 1960 up to that time, the slant six had 110 hp net, or 145 gross, with a 1-bbl carb. There was an export version with a 2-bbl that had 120 net, 160 gross. Too bad they didn't offer it here, as it would've been a nice bridge between the base slant six and the V-8's. Anyway, I think emissions controls strangled it down to around 95-100 hp. By 1977, it had 100 hp in 1-bbl form, and a newly introduced 2-bbl "Super Six" had 110 hp. By this time though, the cars were really too big and heavy. After the Dart and Valiant went away, the smallest car these engines went in was the Volare, and it wasn't exactly a lightweight.

    For 1980, the 2-bbl was dropped, and the 1-bbl was cut to 85 hp. It recovered slightly to 90 hp, where it remained through the end. It was dropped after 1983 in cars, and I think held on through 1987 in trucks.

    Later years got more troublesome, as the Lean Burn was added, and at some point they switched to an aluminum intake manifold that liked to crack. And it got to the point that the thing was so strangled, and in cars that were way too heavy, to where the 318 V-8 was often a more economical choice! The basic engine itself was always durable though, even if the associated external components weren't.

    At one time, there was talk of trying to convert the slant six to Diesel, back when that was the in thing. Considering the success Olds had, maybe it's a good thing Chrysler let that idea die!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Production ended in August 2008. there was a ceremony to celebrate the 26+ million of them that were made. This sites' ridicule of the use of it in the LaCrosse led to it's demise.

    So what are they putting in the base LaCrosse these days, then? FWIW, I looked up the LaCrosse at www.fueleconomy.gov, and they have the 3.8 listed, at 17/28 and the 5.3 V-8, at 16/24. Wonder what happened to the 3.6? :confuse:

    When does the new LaCrosse come out? Did they build-out all the 2009 LaCrosses back in August, and then start switching over to get ready for the new one?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    I thought that Jeep took a step backward when they replaced their "ancient" 4.0 I6 with a "modern" V6. The I6 is virtually unbreakable and is a perfect match for the Wrangler. I know that using a V6 makes for more efficient powertrain packaging, but Wranglers aren't exactly buit to be paragons of space utilization.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I remember looking under the hood of a Jeep Wrangler at the DC auto show this past winter, and was really disappointed to see that they threw the hoary old Mopar 3.8 under the hood. Basically, a minivan engine. 200 hp. And, pushrod! FWIW, I don't think it's a bad engine. It dates back to the old 3.3/3.8 that debuted in the 1988 Dodge Dynasty/Chrysler New Yorker, and that basic block served as the basis for the 3.2, 3.5, and 4.0 OHC V-6'es. The 3.5/4.0 are still in use today. And this was one rare instance where a pushrod was turned into an OHC and it actually worked!

    I always thought that 4.0 inline-6 was kinda cool. While it's based on the old 258 inline-6 that AMC used once upon a time, it was thoroughly reworked, and my understanding was that it was a pretty good engine.

    If Jeeps were still inexpensive vehicles, I wouldn't mind that cheap minivan 3.8 under the hood. But at the prices I've been seeing, those things really need the 3.5 or 4.0 OHC!
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Production of the 3800 may have ended in August '08 (I'm not disputing that), but they may have built enough of them, before shutting down the line, to last another year or so. It was probably more efficient to keep production high, and then shut down the line, rather than to produce fewer units per shift over a longer period. I'm just guessing as to how they were able to continue to install them in the '09 LaCrosse. Of course, I imagine that LaCrosse production and sales, like many models, tanked since last fall.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Although noisy and unrefined for this class, the standard V6 in CX and CXL models offers a pleasing blend of performance and fuel economy. Asphalt-burners will want to slide behind the wheel of the V8-powered Super, which leaps when the throttle is booted. But bear in mind that the old-school V8 has a gruffer delivery than rivals with V6s that are more modern and nearly as powerful.

    The series III is unrefined? After 10 major makeovers? I'd argue it to be the most refined pushrod on the planet. It was once found in Indy cars.
    I test drove one and it was the quietest car I have ever been in.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I once owned an Olds Starfire with the old 231 V6 in it. The reason it shook was that it was an uneven firing engine - basically being a V8 with 2 cylinders wacked off. It only had a 3 throw crank in it. They refined it by going to a stepped crank, and, making it an even firing engine. The Starfire had a rough idle, but, the car ran 250K miles before it got totalled in an accident. To this day, I've never had another car that delivered the fuel economy that this little Olds did.

    Regards:
    Oldengineer
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Have to disagree with you about GM. I've owned a bunch over the past 49 years - including GM, Ford , Chrysler, AMC, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Volkswagen, and Jaguar. The 3 assorted Hondas I've owned, while refined, weren't especially reliable. Last car shopping trip, I came home with a Saturn Aura XE 3.5. Yeah, it's got a pushrod engine, and, a 4 speed automatic, but, it has plenty of power, gets great fuel economy, and is one of the better cars I've owned.

    Regards:
    Oldengineer
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Andre, you summed things up quite well.

    The slant sixes had problems with emissions and they weren't that great on gas. They were tough and long lasting.

    In the early sixties, it was unheard of for a car to go over 100,000 miles without a major overhaul. The slant sixes would go well beyond that without a problem. They were just amazing engines.

    As you mentioned, the later years weren't so good. They were choked to death with emission controls that they couldn't deal with very well.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'm wondering whether fuel injection plus a few other modifications could have kept the Slant 6 viable for a few more years. Fuel injection comes immediately to mind, but, not being an engineer, I don't know just what those other modifications would be. Maybe the most modern electronics of the day would have permitted a higher compression ratio. Help, anyone? Variable valve timing came a few years later, so that wouldn't have been available to rescue the venerable Slant Six.

    .
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think inline 6 cyl engines are pretty much going away, except for some luxury models like BMW, because of weight. Even if you could make a block as light as a V6, the extra length usually means more sheetmetal and framing. Sad, because I think the inlines are generally smoother engines.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Have to disagree with you about GM. I've owned a bunch over the past 49 years - including GM, Ford , Chrysler, AMC, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Volkswagen, and Jaguar. The 3 assorted Hondas I've owned, while refined, weren't especially reliable.

    I'll meet your 3 Hondas and will raise 5. Have had many GMs also, plus other brands, over the years and 8 total Hondas and Acuras over 25 years. Reliability that I have experienced with Hondas/Acuras has been superb.

    GM reliability level has been substantially less than Honda and Toyota. Check out graph on page 16 of April, 2009 issue of Consumer Reports that is titled: "Best Automakers". Honda has best reliability. GM is almost the worst of any brand "except" for Chrysler and Land Rover.
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    2-Porsches, 3 Chryslers, 11 Fords,and 27 Generals=43 to date..No Asian names in the mix..Moved to Detroit in 1968 and spent the next 34 yrs selling parts to the Big3..and other industries using springs, stampings, cable assemblies, steel castings, and steel forgings..Spent the last 15yrs. as a self-employed commisioned manufacturers rep.. Great fun, good money, and the demise of the Big 3 is a huge setback for America..It took the eco-crowd, Democrats, and an radical President to finally kill our industrial base..

    The Porsches, 1958 and 1959 were purchased new in Germany, the 58 was sold in Germany to a returning GI,and the 59 was brought back to the states, sold it around 30k miles, paying for my entire Porsche venture..Both were 1600 Super Coupes..Zero problems over 50k miles and the autobahn was great in the old days, pedal-to-the-metal..

    My real hang-up with a car is wheel balance as it relates to vibration which I will not tolerate. Cars driven in the business end were traded or sold after 50k to 90k miles..problems mostly tires, balance, brakes and suspension..frequent oil changes, never changed radiator fliud or transmission fluid in any car, no engine failures across the board, 2 tranny failures, and GM bought a 1998 Intrigue back after 26k miles..Owned a 1999 Intrigue and a 2002, fun cars, and put 120k on the 2002 before trading-engine was the OHC-3.5 V-6 4/valve jobby, new plugs @110k, other than oil changes engine was never touched. a/c, tranny, and all systems were perfect..Had the SLP cat-back exhaust on the 99er and 02..

    Detroit industry helped keep this country safe and prosperous..

    Favorite cars were the Porsches, 71SS350 Camaro sold after 90k miles in 18 mos.,74,76, and 77 Grand Prix SJs w/big blocks, and a 1950 Ford Crestliner v-8 with dual carbs/dual pipes,3 speed manual w/overdrive trans, and my first set of wheels was a 35 Ford P/U w/ 1947 V-8..straight exhaust w/3 on the floor..Nobody cared about noise in Monticello, Ind in the old days..

    Better quit before I put everyone to sleep. In closing, I have had a wide spectrum of cars, many Chevies, 4 Caddies, bunch of Buicks, and lots of Pontiacs. Recently I had possession of a 2009 Ford Mustang Bullitt for 6 months, it was driven back to Michigan from Venice, Fl, I gave it a 6000 mile breakin, sweetheart of a car and my grandson is rodding it around now..It was a fun 1350 miles to Detroit, it was it's final breakin-motor really loosened up, rock and roll!!!!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The series III is unrefined? After 10 major makeovers? I'd argue it to be the most refined pushrod on the planet. It was once found in Indy cars.
    I test drove one and it was the quietest car I have ever been in.


    IMO, yes. My wife's 07 GrandPrix is far from quiet. My 07 Expedition is tomb like compared to the GP. As is my dad's 09 v6 Accord and my MIL's 05 Camry v6. All light years ahead in NVH compared to the 3800. I just don't care for it. Yes, it gets the job done, maybe I don't appreciate Briggs and Stratton grade sounds.

    It was once found in Indy cars.

    Yeah, it was far more likely to lay oil on the track, than finish the race!LOL
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    What year LaCrosse did you find noisy?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    What year LaCrosse did you find noisy?

    I wasn't referring to the laCrosse as I've never driven one, but I have driven Impalas Park Aves, Regals, LeSabres and Grand Prixs supercharged and nonsupercharge. All are cars I don't want to own or drive again, they do nothing for me.

    I was talking about my wife's 07 Grand Prix with a series III 3800. It's noisy and crude overall. Horrible road isolation. Driving through puddles sounds like the water is coming right through the body. The 3800 certainly is not the noisiest engine I've ever been around, but to me it's a mediocre low rent powerplant, that is marginally better than a good 4cyl. Except for the new direct injected turbo 4s I've driven that have similar to more power, fuel efficient, and are very quiet and smooth.

    Heck, I think GMs ecotec turbo 4 has nearly as much HP and torque as the supercharged 3800 produced.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I totally disagree with you about the noise level of a 3800 engine.

    I find them to be the opposite of "noisy and crude" and I can't figure how you would feel otherwise.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    A coworker of mine has a 94 LeSabre with the 3800...I don't know what series it is. It just rolled over 100K, and it runs fine - although it did have intake manifold (I think) issues last year. It seems quiet and smooth enough for something of that age, but is surprisingly gutless over 45mph or so - don't know if that's an engine or transmission issue...I'd bet the former as it doesn't rev.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    A '94 would have a series I with 165-180 HP.
    A 3800 Series III with SC @ 260 HP isn't far off a 4.6 Northstar V8 with 275 HP.
    There is a short list of era V6's with more guts than my Series II with 282 ft-lbs. I doubt an Altima 3.5 is even on that list.
  • almattialmatti Member Posts: 164
    At 57 years Young..... some quick memories of the Old GM include the car I learned to drive with: my dad's Chevy Impala 1966, silver Super Sport (SS) with a 283 V-* engine (the smallest V-* available at the time), Black "vinyl" interior, Detroit IRON... Fast, sporty with 4 speed automatic in a console with Bucket seats. At 17-18 years old, man, it was a terrific car. Not to say it had some constant balancing, wheel alignment, and brake & exhaust problems....over the 7 years of ownership, but the engine purred, stayed peppy, and didn't leak or burn oil to my recollection...Planned Obsolescence was just starting to enter the American Car picture then. Oh yeah.... I'd take the car out for the day, and then to drop it off at my father's place of business, then catch a bus home. Dad would say: "And don't bring it back without gas" - so $2 gave me 1/2 a tank ($.31 a gallon - 1967 or so) . A Friend of mine had 69 Impala - that car was indestructible. Had the original shocks until it hit 135k after a ski trip to Vermont with a fully loaded vehicle - 5 people and all the stuff....Then onto 73 Olds Delta Royale with the "rocket 88" V-8 engine (Dad's car) - that was nice big comfortable car. Ran like a charm. Then GM went downhill FAST.... as did Ford & Chrysler. an Oil Embargo later, and the Big 3 were caught with "their Pants Down" . The later 70's and 80's cars were absolutely disappointing pieces of Junk (I'm being kind)....Last GM car was a 1997 Pontiac GP (SST) fully loaded V-6 Supercharged, powerful, but a rattle box that fell apart, engine oil leaks gallor, thank God it was leased....Sorry for the Rambling. Now since then it's been nothing but Japanese : Nissan, Honda, even Mitsubishis & Infiniti (best car I've had - G35X ).
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