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Is the Volt really a "Hybrid" or not?

larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
I think anyone classifying the Chevy Volt as a "hybrid car" has it all wrong.

GM calls it an "Extended Range Electric Vehicle" which is what it really is. It's not even a "Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle" either.

It's not a hybrid at all.

What do all the modern era ( 1999+ ) hybrid cars have in common?

1. The can be propelled by MORE than one method: electric motor OR gasoline engine OR a combination of both.

The Volt is not like that at all.

It is ALWAYS powered ONLY by the electric motor. Ever.

The "gasoline" part of the Volt is merely a generator to charge the electric battery which powers the electric motor which propels the car.

That means that it does NOT meet the criteria of every other hybrid car on the road in the world, which is "more than one method of propulsion ( i.e., making the wheels move )"

Anyone offer differences in my analysis? ( I'll bet there are )
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Comments

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE4A4BCR20081105

    DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp is pressing ahead with investment in a range of electric vehicles beyond its Chevy Volt even as the automaker slashes spending in other areas, sources with knowledge of the plan said...

    The electric-powered vehicles under development at GM include plug-ins for GM's luxury Cadillac brand, its Opel brand in Europe and a Chevy-branded vehicle with SUV styling, one of the sources said.
  • wozerdwozerd Member Posts: 2
    Hello all.
    Forgive me, this has been piling up inside me for-- years. Today, I watched T Boone Pickens going on and on about wind power and natural gas. I have read about plug in's, Hybrids and such, Hydrogen cell, natural gas, Bio fuels, wind power and solar power.
    Let's keep it simple. I will assume we all know the basic concepts, benefits and drawbacks of each form of providing usable power. I have read, more than once and heard that if we were to convert every square inch of available space to solar and/or wind power, we still couldn't meet more than 20% of this countrys energy needs.
    We talk about electric vehicles. Plug ins. We talk about Hybrids. Both have, currently, severe drawbacks. The plug ins drawback is-- the plug. The Hybrid (aside from the manufacturing process and accompanying pollution) is that it runs on the gas motor whenever you turn on the heater, run on the expressway or, (for now) turn on the air conditioner.
    At the risk of throwing away a chance to be wealthy for my idea-- which I cannot believe is "my" idea alone-- why can't we make an electric car that runs on batteries, with a kerosene furnace for heat (the VW 412 had it in the early 70's. it ran off gasoline from the gas tank) and a RV camper refrigerator style air conditioner?
    But, I'm not done.
    California already has a problem with brown outs when everyone kicks on the home air conditioners. Whats going to happen when everyone gets home from work and plugs in ther Chevy Volt at 5PM?
    How far can you go in a Chevy Volt? What if you want to take a 600 mile trip? What do you do, stop and plug it in for 4 hours?
    Imagine this: Your driving along on the expressway, the volt meter shows you are getting low. Up ahead, you see a gas station. You exit the expressway, pull into the gas station and, instead of pulling up to the gas pump, you pull up to a long rack that stands next to a wind generator and topped off with a solar panel.
    An attendant comes out. You throw a positive lock switch. Your electric car is now only powerd by a low voltage battery that keeps the computer, radio memory and instrument cluster powered up.
    You reach down and pull a lever-- just like the lever you pull to release your trunk or hood. The attendant unplugs the battery pack, flips the latches holding the battery pack in place and attaches a hook to the pack strap. Using an electric hoist, he lifts out the battery pack, swings it over to an open slot in the rack, sides it onto the rack rollers and shoves it back with a clunk. A green light next to that slot starts flashing green. The connection is made, the battery pack is getting re-charged.Then he takes that hook, walks over to another slot in the rack, attaches the hook to a battery pack with a solid green light, pulls out a fully charged pack, sits it in your car, latches the battery pack tightly in place, reconnects the plugs and slams your hood shut. He then walks to your window, takes your $20.00 credit card or cash. You flip that positive lock switch in your car, your instrument cluster lights up and tells you you are good to go and you're off! As technology improves, you might be able to go 200 or 300 miles before you need to get another pack.
    Got a big SUV or high performance car? Well, you might need to buy two or three battery packs. That's the price you pay for your big SUV or hot rod car! For most of us, in a sub compact size car, like a Corolla, Focus or Civic, one pack is enough-- thank you very much! When you do get home, you plug in your electric car to a solar powered charging station or the house current, just to "top off the tank" so to speak.
    The one thing that needs to change is-- all manufacturers will need to standardize the battery pack and the receptacle. They do it now for fuel tank fill necks, it wouldn't be hard at all.
    Think of it along the lines of a barbecue propane tank exhange or a welding torch tank exhange-- no different.
    New technology? I'm all for it. But, before we go jumping into new technology with no certain outcome, why don't we use what we know works? This would work. Battery packs avialable at gas stations. Recharged with solar cells or wind turbines-- or, right off the grid. Got an old gas powered car? Buy gas. Got an electric car? Exhange a battery pack!
    A plain old, current technology battery pack and one, two or four current technology electric motors could be installed in an existing body vehicle, take you at least 100 miles and be-- of all things-- PRACTICAL!! And, it wouldn't cost $40K or require years and millions of dollars worth of R & D.
    If Ford comes out with a new electric motor that has more power and better range, whats the difference between that and trading in your old OHV gas guzzler V8 for a new 4 cylinder DOHC?
    If new battery packs come out that last longer with more power, whats the difference between that and buying premium gas or, (for those of you that remember) the switch over from leaded to unleaded fuel? Until the old style batterys have worn out and are no longer available, you get a choice. heck, they could discount them for us cheapskates that would pay $10.00 to go 100 miles rather than $20.00-$25.00 to go 250 miles with the new type battery pack.

    What's stopping this from happening? Technology? No-- we have it. Cost? The gas station owners will see the writing on the wall and invest in the "pack rack" and charging system. Just like they invested in gas pumps and storage tanks out in front of their blacksmith shops in the early 1900's.

    I have looked, I have asked. No one seems to be able to tell me why this isn't feasable and do-able in a very short time. Maybe some one here can.
    That's why I'm posting this-- I gotta know! Am I a visionary or am I just simple minded?
    Thanks for letting me rant. I just had to do it.

    Wozerd
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    You hit on one of the big questions I've always had about EV's and plug-ins. Exactly WHERE is the electricty going to come from to charge up these cars that we are not charging up now, and what's going to be the effect on electric rates once this additional demand gets piled on?

    It bothers me a bit that in their zeal for EV's, some proponents act as if this capacity is sitting there waiting to be tapped. :confuse:
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    Although I live in the shadow of a nuke plant, our electricity comes from a dirty coal plant. So if I bought a Volt, or any other plug-in, that means more coal burned and noxious emissions and waste, more coal mined in the least sustainable way from hilltops in WV and eastern KY, more pollution from that mining.

    This is the "green" solution?
  • chadxchadx Member Posts: 153
    Quote: "our electricity comes from a dirty coal plant. So if I bought a Volt, or any other plug-in, that means more coal burned and noxious emissions and waste, more coal mined in the least sustainable way from hilltops in WV and eastern KY, more pollution from that mining. "

    This is the "green" solution? Keep in mind that electricity from even the dirtiest sources (coal plants) produces less polution than the most efficient gasoline powered car when talking "well to wheel" numbers. So yes, this solution is more "green" than driving any gasoline engine. Now consider the amount of renewable resources coming online that produce electricity, and the potential for more in the future, and it just gets better from there.
  • chadxchadx Member Posts: 153
    Quote:"It bothers me a bit that in their zeal for EV's, some proponents act as if this capacity is sitting there waiting to be tapped. "

    In many places, it is. Demand is so much less in the evenings that the industry has trouble dealing with the wide variance between daytime consumption and overnight. Electric vehicles that draw from the grid after a certain time would actually benefit the grid in evening out distribution, especially from sources than can not easily dump the extra power made around the clock, like wind farms.
  • chadxchadx Member Posts: 153
    Hi. I'll do my best to give you my opinion since you asked. And there are a few inaccuracies in your post I'd like to address as well.

    "I have read, more than once and heard that if we were to convert every square inch of available space to solar and/or wind power, we still couldn't meet more than 20% of this countrys energy needs. "

    That is wildly inaccurate. There are many renewable sources that could easily supply the entire country with plenty of power...even more so if people would just conserve a little bit. One example are the parabolic reflectors that heat the steam tubes to run steam turbines. This method has been in use for years and is quite efficient. Scaling estimates show the desert land in Nevada has enough sun and space (a few hundred square miles would be needed) to supply enough for much of the US.

    The main problem would be the backbone and transport to the grid. That is the main issue with many renewable sources, though it's getting much better with investments continuing. Small town around the country are putting up a single 2.5 megawatt wind turbine and creating a town electric company to supply local renewable energy to entire townships. Big wind farms keep expanding. Households could easily supply 100% of their own electricity with combinations of solar panels, wind turbines, smart building designs, and conservation.

    "California already has a problem with brown outs when everyone kicks on the home air conditioners. Whats going to happen when everyone gets home from work and plugs in ther Chevy Volt at 5PM? "

    That would be easily solved with a timer so the car recharge automatically starts to draw later in the evening as demand decreases.

    "How far can you go in a Chevy Volt? What if you want to take a 600 mile trip? What do you do, stop and plug it in for 4 hours? "

    Chevy Volts will have unlimited mileage because they have a generator backup that kicks in. The only way you get stranded anywhere, with one, is the same with a current automobile...you don't keep gas in the tank.

    " Imagine this: Your driving along on the expressway, the volt meter shows you are getting low. ...you pull up to a long rack...Using an electric hoist, he lifts out the battery pack, swings it over to an open slot in the rack, sides it onto the rack rollers and shoves it back with a clunk. ..."

    Not a new idea. That has been proposed since the discussions of electric cars have been around and there are even prototypes. It's a matter of chicken and the egg. As you mention, someone has to come up with a design (preferably a group of several different manufacturers) and make a standard. Then everyone can adhere to it and all electric stations (vs gas stations) can use one exchange system. It will take building out the infrastructure. It all can be done, but will take time and investment. Investment capital is hard to come by in a recession, so it may be a while.

    " A plain old, current technology battery pack and one, two or four current technology electric motors could be installed in an existing body vehicle, take you at least 100 miles and be-- of all things-- PRACTICAL!! And, it wouldn't cost $40K or require years and millions of dollars worth of R & D. "

    I'm not sure it's that simple...or cheap. Look at the battery packs that you add to a Prius. They cost around $10,000 plus installation. Add that to the cost of a new prius, say $25,000, and now you are driving around a $35,000 prius that will get you about 40 miles down the road on electric only. That's on current battery technology. I don't think it's as cheap as you think to get 100+ miles of range with reasonable driving speed, particularly in any "existing body vehicle". To get that range takes a specific combination of things including large enough electric motor, large enough batter packs, special designs (aerodynamics, light weight materials, etc.). Often times to get the range, the top speed has to be reduced as well. Want to do range, speed, AND a large comfortable vehicle? Then your costs skyrocket and you'll be well over your $40,000 mark and yes, years of R&D.

    "What's stopping this from happening? Technology? No-- we have it. Cost? The gas station owners will see the writing on the wall and invest in the "pack rack" and charging system. Just like they invested in gas pumps and storage tanks out in front of their blacksmith shops in the early 1900's.

    Technology is there but consumers have to be willing to buy it and manufacturers have to be able to sell it for a profit and recoup the millions of R&D and venture capital invested (which there isn't any of right now). Also, it has to be cost prohibitive to use the existing fuel types and with gas prices back down, no one cares about mileage. Well, they do, but they aren't willing to pay for it unless the break even point is one or two years. At these temporarily cheap gas prices, there is, unfortunately, no incentive for manufatures or consumers. It's nice that all of us want to be green, but when it comes down to it, not enough of us are willing to pay more for it. So until costs (both dollars and environmental costs) of using gasoline, coal, etc. are too steap to pay, don't expect too many changes.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Battery breakthrough set to accelerate electric-car development

    By GREG KABLE

    A picture of General Motors engineers prepare a lithium-ion battery pack for testing. General Motors engineers prepare a lithium-ion battery pack for testing.A team of scientists working at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology are claiming a significant breakthrough in recharging times for lithium-ion batteries.

    According to findings published in the scientific journal Nature, MIT researchers Byoungwoo Kang and Gerbrand Ceder have unlocked the potential of lithium-ion batteries by patenting a unique process which is claimed to allow a typical laptop power pack to be fully recharged in less than a minute--an improvement in recharging performance of roughly 90 percent over existing lithium-ion batteries.

    Lithium-ion batteries generate electric current via the flow of lithium ions across an electrolyte, from an electrode to a cathode. Recharging them effectively reverses this process; lithium ions are sent from the cathode back to electrode.

    The recharge time of lithium-ion batteries in use today is limited by how quickly the lithium ions pass through the electrolyte.

    The process being championed by Kang and Ceder sees the lithium ions used in the cathode coated in lithium-phosphate glass to help speed up the time it takes for the ions to pass from cathode to electrode. Lithium-phosphate glass is a highly efficient lithium conductor, subsequently helping to accelerate the recharging process.

    Ceder says the new process creates "perfectly sized tunnels for lithium to move through." He adds, "We saw that we could reach ridiculously fast charging rates."

    Improving recharging times has long been considered the route to making hybrid drive systems more efficient. By taking advantage of the process developed by Kang and Ceder, lithium-ion batteries could be recharged in a matter of minutes via the gasoline engine and/or during braking while on the move. It also could make electric vehicles much more practical by extending their range and reducing the amount of time they need to be plugged in to external charging sources."
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Battery breakthrough set to accelerate electric-car development

    By GREG KABLE

    "A picture of General Motors engineers prepare a lithium-ion battery pack for testing. General Motors engineers prepare a lithium-ion battery pack for testing.A team of scientists working at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology are claiming a significant breakthrough in recharging times for lithium-ion batteries.

    According to findings published in the scientific journal Nature, MIT researchers Byoungwoo Kang and Gerbrand Ceder have unlocked the potential of lithium-ion batteries by patenting a unique process which is claimed to allow a typical laptop power pack to be fully recharged in less than a minute--an improvement in recharging performance of roughly 90 percent over existing lithium-ion batteries.

    Lithium-ion batteries generate electric current via the flow of lithium ions across an electrolyte, from an electrode to a cathode. Recharging them effectively reverses this process; lithium ions are sent from the cathode back to electrode.

    The recharge time of lithium-ion batteries in use today is limited by how quickly the lithium ions pass through the electrolyte.

    The process being championed by Kang and Ceder sees the lithium ions used in the cathode coated in lithium-phosphate glass to help speed up the time it takes for the ions to pass from cathode to electrode. Lithium-phosphate glass is a highly efficient lithium conductor, subsequently helping to accelerate the recharging process.

    Ceder says the new process creates "perfectly sized tunnels for lithium to move through." He adds, "We saw that we could reach ridiculously fast charging rates."

    Improving recharging times has long been considered the route to making hybrid drive systems more efficient. By taking advantage of the process developed by Kang and Ceder, lithium-ion batteries could be recharged in a matter of minutes via the gasoline engine and/or during braking while on the move. It also could make electric vehicles much more practical by extending their range and reducing the amount of time they need to be plugged in to external charging sources."
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    While I might be able to make the case for it being called an EV since it only ever is moved by electricity, I'd still put it under the general umbrella of "hybrid" since that electricity won't necessarily always come just from the batteries. Sort of the same way a Prius or Insight isn't always moved only by the ICE.

    Multiple sources of power = hybrid
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The car is ALWAYS "powered" by the electric motor.

    The electric MOTOR is sometimes powered by the generator.

    The Volt is an "Extended Range Electric Vehicle" per the manufacturer.

    Seems like if it was a hybrid, the designer and seller of the car would call it a hybrid.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "Here's a hybrid car definition: A hybrid car is a car which can run on two or more fuel sources."

    The Volt does not "run" on two sources of power.

    It runs on ONLY the electric motor.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    An electric motor or ICE is not a "fuel source"

    Your own choice of definition for hybrid says the Volt is one. Two fuels... battery and gasoline. If one runs out, the other can keep you moving.

    So other than a good argument over semantics (and who doesn't love that?) :P this all seems a rather pointless point.

    It's a hybrid, what's the big deal?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It's a big deal because it's just wrong to call an Apple and Orange.

    The gas never keeps the car moving - it just charges the battery.

    I don't think it should be called a hybrid because it's an Extended Range Electric Vehicle.

    Just like hybrid cars don't want to be put into some other classification than they are in.

    It's an electric vehicle which uses a gas engine to provide extended range to the electric batteries.

    The gas generator is just a bonus. The car does not need it running to move.

    I could own a Volt with my commute and NEVER use any gasoline at ALL.

    Every hybrid car on the road needs an internal combustion engine which powers the wheels at some point.

    The Volt will NEVER have the "gas generator" powering the wheels.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    A-HA !!!

    pf_flyer says, "An electric motor or ICE is not a "fuel source" "

    In the Volt, the gasoline generator is JUST EXACTLY THAT !!! It's only a fuel source for the batteries !!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How about if we just call the Volt an overpriced piece of crap from a bankrupt auto manufacturer?

    I am sure you have heard the term series hybrid. The electric motors turn the wheels of trains, buses and earth moving equipment. Some have batteries which get charged by diesel engines that never take part in moving the vehicle. They were around as hybrids long before a Prius hybrid was even thought of. The Volt could very well be considered a SERIES HYBRID. Same basic concept that drives a lot of equipment. Most of those series hybrids do not waste a lot of money on batteries that are really not useful in saving money.

    The parallel hybrid is a fairly recent concept to hit the market. No more or less a hybrid than a series hybrid which the Volt is. Unless you are bound and determined to listen to a bunch of goofballs from Government Motors.
  • mark_cmark_c Member Posts: 8
    Unlike a typical hybrid vehicle that uses two direct sources of energy/fuel to move a vehicle, the Volt uses one.

    An example of direct sources of power would be gasoline for the gasoline engine (which moves the vehicle) and electricity to power the electric motor (which moves the vehicle).

    The Volt uses one source of direct energy to power/move the car, electricity.

    The volt does use gasoline as an indirect power source (charge the batteries), but gasoline is not used to move the car (only electricity as it uses an electric motor to move the car). This means that if there is a plug-in for the Volt, that besides gasoline other indirect power sources could be nuclear, hydro, coal, thermal, solar, wind, etc. pending on where the electricity comes from that is delivered to the socket the Volt is plugged into.
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    One correction (as I understand it). Several months ago, GM changed their plans about the gas driven generator recharging the battery. Supposedly, it does not. When the battery depletes to its allowed minimun charge, the ICE cranks up and takes over the propulsion by providing electricity to the drive motor. From that time on (until its plugged in), the only recharge the battery gets is a little decelleration and braking energy recovery. I guess the idea is to use plug-in to get max EPA credits for not running the gas engine except as needed to complete a journey to a plugin site. (The article used an expression of it having its own built-in "tow truck"). Pretty much a deal killer, from my point of view, unless it fills your bill (in range) for a daily commuter. -- GFR
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Interesting. If the ICE doesn't provide ANY recharging of the battery at all, then what's the point? And you'd think they could claim SOME recharging while the ICE is running when the car would be stopped at a traffic light for example... unless they shut down the ICE when the car isn't moving.

    You're right. "Built in tow truck" isn't going to sell this thing to anyone.
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    Well, as to "What's the Point?" It does keep you from being stranded and allows you to reach a destination beyond the range limits of the battery, which would be very comforting, I'd say. Their 40 mile electric range claim certainly won't hold up in all situations and batteries will deteriorate in time, as to taking & holding a charge. Eventually, drivers are going to count on a 40 mile round trip and run out of energy at say, 25 miles! So, the generator system does have great merit. I'd just prefer an ongoing recharge to make the vehicle more accomodating and give up a little of their outlandish EPA mileage claims. I'd prefer for even a commuter car to be able to travel interstate, if needed, since it has an ICE anyway. I have no idea how the government will eventuall evaluate and document the EPA values and assign the Corporate credits for hybrid and electric vehicles. Then there are other non-petroleum propulsion systems, also. I fear that eventually we will have to settle for less than desired vehicles due to how the government decides to establish those competitive numbers. We may get inferior mileage, fuel costs and driveability at the alter of EPA numbers bragging rights for sales purposes! -- GFR
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Another good point. That 40 mile range is under ideal conditions, something like temperatures in the mid 60's, etc. Anything outside those parameters degrades battery performance and cuts down range.

    I get the feeling this isn't a good basket for GM to put a whole lot of their eggs into.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that GM is banking on the Feds to subsidize their lame attempt at a high mileage car. The $7500k tax credit will give a few fat cats the incentive to put one in the garage. The ideal candidate makes lots of money and pays lots in taxes. They have a relatively short commute under 15 miles each way. They cannot live in an apartment without a garage and AC access.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The Volt is not a hybrid. It's powered ONLY by the electric motor.

    The Volt, however, is considered an extended-range electric vehicle (E-REV). It has a very powerful all-electric 161-horsepower 45KW (100 KW peak) motor that is the only motor to power the car at all times.

    Single method of propulsion = non-hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This company builds E-REV conversions. They use the term Plug-in Hybrid interchangeably with extended range EV. They consider them one in the same thing. All just semantics.

    Raser’s Plug-in Series Hybrid Drive System Architecture is designed to Light Trucks and SUV’s to achieve over 100 mpg in typical local daily driving with near zero emissions under full with electric power using an onboard range extender

    http://www.rasertech.com/media/pdfs/Series_PHEV_Drive_System_Flyer_07.pdf

    Series or serial-hybrid have also been referred to as a Extended Range Electric Vehicle or Range-Extended Electric Vehicle (EREV/REEV); however, range extension can be accomplished with either series or parallel hybrid layouts.

    Series-hybrid vehicles are driven by the electric motor with no mechanical connection to the engine. Instead there is an engine tuned for running a generator when the battery pack energy supply isn't sufficient for demands.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Good post, but I just happen to agree with GM.

    A single method of propulsion to me indicates a non-hybrid - no matter how that propulsion energy is produced.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Quoting from the Volt website:

    Not A Hybrid

    The Chevrolet Volt is unique from a hybrid or a plug-in hybrid in that the vehicle's wheels are ALWAYS driven electrically by an electric drive unit.


    Taint a hybrid, fellas.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And what would GM know about it. They cannot even run a business without the tax payers bailing them out. The same government that owns them, call the Volt a plug-in hybrid. You know those folks at the EPA you are always defending.

    It is no different than a diesel electric train. They call them hybrids also. They should be called TRI-BRID. they have electric motor, gas motor and batteries.

    Not even a chance I would park that Li-Ion time bomb in my garage.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited August 2010
    Gary, you're not still holding to that silly fallacy that Li-Ion batteries in cars are going to be dangerous, are you?

    Sandia Labs in charge of battery safety testing - a LOT of smart folks out there.

    Of course, Sandia and the manufacturers want to prevent all possible dangers. But, Orendorff asserts, consumers forget that no car is completely hazard-proof. Lithium-ion batteries may have a higher chance of igniting than, say, standard lead-acid batteries, “but the chances of flammability are far less than what you have in a combustion vehicle that is carrying 15 gallons of gasoline onboard.”

    Your gasoline tank is far more dangerous than a battery pack.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What a phony comparison. We have cases of Li-Ion and NiMH batteries catching fire. When was the last time you heard of a gas tank exploding in a garage, just sitting there? And yes gas is very volatile. That is why I prefer diesel. It is NOT.

    Li-Ion has a history of catching fire in all sorts of devices while plugged in. You can take the chance. I will not. Sony just recently recalled over a million such batteries. The Tesla uses the same batteries. I do not know what Volt will be using. I do not look like a guinea pig, nor do I want to be one.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Like I have said before - if you think ANY automaker is going to sell a "fire prone" battery system to the public, you are completely WRONG.

    They are not gonna put their reputation (and in the case of GM, BILLIONS of dollars) on the line by selling a car that might catch fire in a garage.

    It just AIN'T realistic to think that.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    At this point in time Sony and probably Dell are bigger than GM and they did just that. Several home fires as a result of Li-Ion batteries. There is no real guarantee. They are playing the odds on Lithium batteries. Not the first time an automaker has done such a thing and not the last. Toyota is paying right now for trying to hide defects across their lineup. The Feds and their car company want a winner so bad, they will take the small risk. Go for it if you feel lucky.

    Starting Jan. 1, airline passengers will no longer be allowed to pack loose lithium batteries in checked luggage, the U.S. Transportation Department's Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration warned late last week.

    Instead, passengers will be required to take loose batteries with them in carry-on baggage, packed in plastic bags. The new regulation, which will go into effect in order to lessen the risk of lithium battery fires, won't apply to lithium batteries that are already installed in electronic devices, such as laptops, cell phones, and cameras. Those can be checked in.

    Additionally, only two spare rechargeable lithium batteries will be allowed on airplanes per passenger in carry-on bags.

    The international rule will become U.S. law on Tuesday.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary - you must be still operating under the assumption that the same type of Li-Ion technology is going into the cars.

    It Ain't.

    No "laptop" battery that malfunctioned (i.e., spontaneously combusted) had a cooling system, or any method to keep it from charging too high or going too low. However, ALL the vehicles will have temperature-control systems and built-in safety systems to prevent problems.

    So how does the all-electric Tesla Roadster manage to pack 6,831 Li-ion batteries under its hood without risking a major blow-up? The Tesla's energy storage system that propels the car is equipped with a cooling system, which ensures the batteries don't overheat. It also regulates the speed of the flow of ions to keep them from re-charging or draining too quickly.

    That's in the Tesla. So far, no garage explosions in that one.

    And these companies understand that batteries for cars HAVE to be different.

    These catastrophes happen when a cell shorts out, gets hot, and starts an exothermic oxidizing reaction that kicks the temperature to hundreds of degrees Celsius in a fraction of a second. The heat then shorts out adjacent cells to produce a runaway thermal reaction that can be spectacular (just ask Sony). And, unlike a gasoline fire, the conflagration can’t be smothered, because it gets oxygen from the cell’s intrinsic chemistry.

    Field failures occur once in every 5 million to 10 million of the most common lithium-ion cells, those known as the 18650 design, according to Brian Barnett, a technology analyst at Tiax, a consulting firm.

    There are several ways to make the new technology safe enough for cars. One, perhaps transitional, approach is to link large numbers of small cells in networks--as the Tesla does--with safeguards to ensure that a problem in one cell cannot propagate to others. A123 and some other start-ups instead chose to focus on the fundamental reactions in the cell.


    Just keep believing they are dangerous if you want, but please don't spread that fallacy around.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited August 2010
    There is more FACTS to back up my belief than yours that it is all fallacy. A123 brings up the Plug-in Prius that were catching fire while driving down the road. What happens when you are out in AZ at 120 degrees and the cooling system does not keep the batteries cool enough. Maybe that is why the Volt will not be sold in AZ. Try it in warm CA first. If not too many people complain of their homes being burnt to the ground, move to warmer places. Or are they being sold in the CARB states to save money on CO2 emission fines?

    Li-Ion batteries are potentially lethal until proven otherwise.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Volt will be sold in AZ, just as in ALL 50 states - just not RIGHT AWAY.

    They have to train the service departments, and make spare parts available. It would cost FAR TOO MUCH to try and do that for 3,000 dealerships. So they take it a chunk at a time.

    I'm sure they have a reason for the staggered rollout, probably to maximize profits in the states they feel will support the highest sales volume.

    Believe me, they have done TONS of market research. A lot is riding on this car.

    And SINCE so much is riding on the car, what do you think will happen if they start "Flaming ON" in gay-rages?

    That's right - a P.R. DISASTER.

    Don't think for a SECOND they are stupid enough to put a car out there that will damage their reputation at at time like this in the company's history. You must think they are REALLY STUPID if you think they will sell a fire risk.

    There are MILLIONS of Li-Ion devices in the world that have NOT "flamed up." So to say they are "dangerous until proven otherwise" - that's ludicrous.

    It's "proven otherwise" every single day around the world when batteries using this technology work as promised.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited August 2010
    A couple points. To say that GM management is smart gave me a good laugh. They cannot run a company without wasting billions of tax dollars. They could not have built the Volt without tax credits and research dollars from US. Yes it would be a PR nightmare if they were to have a rash of fires. Hopefully their pared down engineering department got it right. I am not holding my breath. Second, there is a huge difference between a device with 3-6 cells of Li-Ion and one with thousands of cells. The odds go way up on a defective cell causing a chain reaction fire.

    PS
    Don't park your Volt at work where it is below freezing and expect it to take right off on battery mode. Batteries have to be 50 degrees to operate. That should be fun for the NE customers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The battery is warmed up during plug-in charging, which is recommended particularly in cold climates, but we realize not everyone will do this. So at night, we plug-in some vehicles and some we don’t. We want to ensure the vehicles start in the morning, or if the battery is too cold, we want to be certain the engine-generator starts first to protect the battery. The engine-generator system will provide energy to heat battery if it was not plugged in or to supplement battery temperature. By the time you remote start the car, or remote cabin conditioning as we refer to it in the Volt, pack up your things and get in, the car is ready to go.

    An EV that has to have an ICE to get warmed up before it will move is not real practical in cold weather. Testing at 23 degrees F is hardly cold weather testing. It gets that cold here where I live in San Diego. They should have tested it in the Arctic like REAL car companies do. That is a test when it gets down to 40 below Zero. Should work fine in LA. It is targeted at the fat cat wanna look green crowd anyway. Nothing practical in its genetic makeup.

    At his point the only hybrid/EV I would consider is the Ford Escape Hybrid. If it does not get anymore than 31 MPG on the highway, it would be a waste of money as well. Just keep the old Porker Sequoia and save a lot of money on having the latest and not so greatest. Buying a Volt would be sort of like wasting money on the latest iPhone.
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    I'm surprised that there are no entries here after GM disclosed the detils on the Volt power system, to include the fact that they have been misleading the public to protect pending patents. Such as, the vehicle is, in fact, powered by other than just an electric motor in certain circumstances! -- gfr1
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    If the Volt is moving, the wheels are being turned by electric motors. The electricity is either coming from storage (battery) or generation (the gas motor used to generate electricity when the batteries are down). The Volt is NOT a hybrid. Cut the wires to the electric motors and it's not going anywhere.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Does it really matter, and if so, to whom?
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    With all due respect, the same could be said about the wheels, as the wires, but what does that prove? Did you read the release, or are you speaking fom what you think you know? If you read my comment that you are responding to, I said that there is a case where the engine can assist in the motive force of the vehicle, which is in deference to previous GM claims. The drive transmission system is quite a bit more involved than previous explanations from GM.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Way to go. Finally someone agrees with me.

    Without the electric motors running, the Volt is a speed bump.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    edited October 2010
    This is really simple. The engine does not move the vehicle, period. In fact, the engine is simply an emergency generator being carried around by the vehicle.

    This is a silly argument about semantics. Yes, the engine generates the electricity that is NEEDED to move the vehicle when the batteries are low. There is no transmission mechanically connecting the engine to the wheels. The Volt needs a person to drive it as well. Does that mean the driver "assists with the motive force of the vehicle"?

    And this is all probably moot anyway. Since the Volt is not going to make a dime of profit, it's not going to be around very long. Speaking as an unintended and unwilling shareholder in Government Motors, I don't want MY company setting out to market vehicles that they know from the start aren't going to do anything but increase the red ink. :shades:
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    "pf", you're getting a little petty with me here, - calling my position "silly", etc. Copied just below, is from "Edmunds", no less. Note, that I have not ever claimed what the Volt can do with, or without electric power, but only that there can be a mechanical connection betwen the ICE power plant and the drive train components under certain comditions. Then, compare the following with what you have claimed, vs. Edmunds article.

    Edmunds article statement, followed with coments:

    Comment: In fact the Chevy Volt is a plug-in hybrid and it has more in common with conventional "series-parallel" hybrids like the Toyota Prius than the marketing hype led us to believe. There are circumstances in which the Volt operates with the internal combustion engine directly driving the front wheels. That's right, like a Prius.

    At the heart of the Volt is the "Voltec" propulsion system and the heart of Voltec is the "4ET50" electric drive unit that contains a pair of electric motors and a "multi-mode transaxle with continuously variable capacity." This is how GM describes it:

    "Unlike a conventional powertrain, there are no step gears within the unit, and no direct mechanical linkage from the engine, through the drive unit to the wheels."

    The 4ET50 is, however, in fact directly bolted to the 1.4-liter, four-cylinder Ecotec internal combustion engine. When the Volt's lithium-ion battery pack runs down, clutches in the 4ET50 engage and the Ecotec engine is lashed to the generator to produce the electric power necessary to drive the car. However, under certain circumstances — speeds near or above 70 mph — the engine will directly drive the front wheels in conjunction with the electric motors.

    As in the Prius, the Volt's drivetrain includes a planetary gear set that acts as a transmission. The intricacies of planetary gears are many, but in rough terms each element (electric engines and internal combustion engine) of the Prius or Volt drivetrains are hooked up to different elements of the gear set. In the Volt, its Ecotec engine is clutched to the outer ring gear and as the car's speed reaches the edge of efficiency for the electric motor, that ring is set from its normally rigid mounting in the 4ET50's case and allowed to spin. That has the Ecotec driving the front wheels.

    The Volt's Vehicle Line Executive Doug Parks confirmed that there is, on occasion, a mechanical connection between the internal combustion engine and drive wheels in an interview with Norman Mayersohn of The New York Times. This isn't idle speculation or educated inference; it's an admitted fact.

    (gfr1s parting comment): Now, GM has lied before, for patent reasons (they claim), So maybe things will change with our understanding of the Volt's drive, but I was only tying to convey what the news release addressed and not get a put-down from you!
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    ...under certain circumstances... at speeds near or above 70 mph...

    The fact that under those specific set of circumstances, the engine may be mechanically coupled to the front wheels does not mean that the engine moves the car. I had not read the Edmunds piece, but that really doesn't change my view. The electric motors are moving the car, correct? And now we get up to 70 mph on electric power. The engine doesn't turn on until the batteries are depleted, so just how does the engine get involved here? If the batteries aren't depleted, the engine's not on. But if through some mechanical coincidence, the engine winds up being mechanically coupled to the front wheels, wouldn't that be a drag on the system? Or is the story now that those set of conditions turn the engine on?

    And let's assume it's all true, GM looks even more foolish for pushing this idea than ever. I've said all along I think the Volt is a bust. It might be a necessary experiment, but it doesn't seem to be a ready-for-prime-time player by any stretch of the imagination.

    Sell my stock, please :P
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I don't think you're silly, or even your position (given the Edmunds assertion)... but getting into a knock-down, drag-out about whether the Volt is a "hybrid" when GM says it isn't has seemed silly to me since the inception of this discussion.

    But you can still sell my stock... if anyone will buy it ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    May I join the discussion?

    The electric motors are moving the car, correct?

    In some situations the gas motor provide direct mechanical assistance, so I'd say both do, in parallel.

    This is the opposite of what we usually think of as a hybrid. We are used to seeing a gas engine move a car, with electric assist and quick-start after engine shut-down.

    Volt seems to be just the opposite. The electric motor moves the car, with gas motor assist.

    Call it a Mild Hybrid - but it is indeed a hybrid. To be fair, GM wasn't entirely forthcoming, but now that we now the gas motor does indeed have a mechanical connection and provides direct propulsion assistance, this is indeed what we've been calling a mild hybrid.

    Think about the Honda Civic Hybrid, a mild hybrid.

    The electric engine cannot move the car by itself - same as the Volt. So that argument doesn't disqualify the Volt as a hybrid, else the Civic would not be a hybrid either!

    The HCD electric motor only helps once in a while - same as the Volt.

    Electric assist only is used when it will increase efficiency - same as the Volt.

    The Volt is a Mild Hybrid, only in reverse from what we're used to.

    Funny thing is I actually came here to complain that the gas engine requires PREMIUM fuel (so dumb!) and has a heavy iron block, but the debate about the semantics drew me right in.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    edited October 2010
    Oh, the premium fuel thing makes NO sense at all, same for the smart.

    Back to the "engine assist"... assuming what the Edmunds piece says is correct, why only at 70 mph or above? And the other question still remains in my head, the only thing moving the car otherwise is electric. So if the batteries are drained, but the motor is generating electricity to keep the Volt moving, why isn't the engine mechanically moving the vehicle too?

    Sell my stock just to be sure ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The big Volt Tax rebate was sold to the tax payers as promoting electric powered vehicles.

    Volt Fraud At Government Motors

    Posted 10/19/2010 06:55 PM ET

    Green Technology: Government Motors' all-electric car isn't all-electric and doesn't get near the touted hundreds of miles per gallon. Like "shovel-ready" jobs, maybe there's no such thing as "plug-ready" cars either.


    Volt Fraud

    While the Volt does fit the Plug-in Hybrid category. It is not what it was advertised as:

    Extended Range Electric Vehicles (EREVs). Only the electric motor turns the wheels; the gasoline engine is only used to generate electricity
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