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Afraid Camry Owner - Toyota found to keep tight lid on potential safety
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The 4 folks whose Toyota killed them the day after Christmas had the floor mats *in the trunk*. Maybe Toyota understands the root-cause problem now. Maybe not. Either way it seems certain there will be a nonzero number of fatalities/injuries due to the toyota design/engineering flaw, between now and whenever they *really* understand all the issues and have fixed all the susceptible vehicles.
best wishes for safety/health for you & yours, sir.
Even if you consider these recalls as a issue which will be fixed by toyota, still it makes you worried after spending so much money.
some people here in this forum totally ignore that fact and instead of providing or discussing real issues just trying to sweep the issue under the rug.
people still blaming bad floormats for this recall in this forum without realizing how it can effect someone in making their decision on buying a car.
I think this forum has some internet department car salesman, misguiding rest of us.
But there are two separate issues and two separate recalls. They overlap by 1.7 MM units.
CASE 1 ...It is the mats.. You have to read the Recall notice. The NHTSA is forcing Toyota to reshape the gas pedal because of the risk that some completely unaware owner might still put one or two or three sets of mats into the footwell and trap the gas pedal all the way forward. This is the action that the Feds want Toyota to make. This was the result of the SD accident where the Feds found that the wrong mats which were not installed properly by the dealer probably caused the accident. So this situation had to be addressed; i.e. keeping stupid situations from causing accidents.
CASE 2 ...It's not the mats. This is yesterday's Recall. In investigating these issues Toyota has apparently found a potential defect in the gas pedal armature which might cause it to stick if it becomes worn. It apparently only applies to N American-made vehicles. For these vehicles the owners are going to receive new gas pedal armatures.
There are 1.7 MM vehicles which fall under both. Doing the 2nd Recall solves the first one too.
In the meanwhile the brake override reflashing which the Germans have put into their vehicles is being installed and retro-flashed into new and current vehicles as another level of protection.
Well then I guess I have to change brands because the sell high and buy low doesn't come from my wallet twice at the same place. Too bad, until this I liked Toyota. BMW looks interesting.
Taking my time to fix a brand new vehicle is not going to happen.Their fault, their problem.
Besides I never oppose my wife's serious demands. She knows how to make food appear.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
mako1a,
What type of food are you talking about here?
So what...??!!
As long as you immediatly "fess" up to your mistakes and fix the problem only the dead will care.
The problem is that the japanese culture does not allow for any real form of "fessing up" except......
Than what is it...??
"...potential defect.."
POTENTIAL DEFECT...??
Sounds to me as if Toyota is used the shotgun, scatter gun, troubleshooting method.
It isn't 'this", no it isn't "that", try "this', maybe this "other'..??
that can be easily solved: don't drive the car; give the car away; sell the car; donate th car; ...
what's so difficult about it?
To be fair; many people cannot go through their daily activities without being able to use their car. And many people don't have a second car as a back up. The option of solving the problem by giving up the car they have chosen and paid for is not something most of us would do; particularly when it might eventually be fixable. So that is why some people become stuck in these situations. Only the fiercely independent will do whatever it takes to end an unpleasant situation immediately.
Yes that is reasonable. The customer is handing over "perfect" $'s, and should expect a new car to similarly be near perfect. In fact that is Japanese manufacturing philosophy - to continue working towards perfection.
I can see a new vehicle having some sort of imperfections like low tire pressure, or a cosmetic flaw from shipping, but this issue seems like an engineering design issue. Knowing the problems I see system software engineers make, and the constant improvements/revisions made to those systems, that Toyota's engineering quality system let some problems slip past. My company has just had similar problems with the launch of a machine, where the involved mechanical and software engineers went through several months of alpha and beta testing of the machine and failed to detect numerous problems in various application scenarios.
There are various reasons for engineering design problems reaching the customers - keep costs as low as possible, get the product to market sooner/don't delay the launch date that some executive isolated from reality has set, sourcing products from low-cost unreliable suppliers, and just human complacency error.
Toyota should learn from Ford and Audi's debacle. People will not be driving on properly inflated tires all the time, they can confuse pedals if too close together or similar. The manufacturer should not take the position that the customer simply needed to act intelligently and there would have been no problem.
It sounds like Toyota's brake over-ride system might be a good system; but maybe it should have been there in the 1st place, in every manufacturer's vehicles. I know in my company that there are OSHA and Electrical Codes requiring that all manufacturing equipment has an easily accessible, brightly colored, E-Stop button available for the operator that kills all power to the machine if needed. In a vehicle case you don't want to kill all power, such as for braking, steering, and lights, but a button tied to spring-loaded normally-closed valves in the fuel-line ought to do. No gas, no go, doesn't matter how screwed-up the software is, or if the mat has become like a python around the pedals.
Toyota would be wise to come clean on this issue quickly, and make restitution as possible.
that's a perfectly reason proposition.
the original poster I was replying to said s/he just wanted to "end the fear of a runaway car". to me, the solution to his/her problem is so easy that it doesn't even justify asking for it.
First they claim there is no problem, then there might be a problem, and now a recall.
What is the REAL underlining issue?
That's a good assessment
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"that can be easily solved: don't drive the car; give the car away; sell the car; donate th car"
So you are going to subject someone else to the possible danger of the car?
Are you willing to take on the Legal Ramifications of that too?
When you give, sell or donate the car.
If a person had a reasonable fear about the electrical wiring in their home, and worried that its faulty installation could cause a fire, would you anticipate the solution to be to give the house away? Of course not.
Sometimes primary reactions based on fear aren't the best. It's a good idea to think these things through and look for other solutions. Even if mako1a's wife won't ride in the car, there's no immediate mad rush to get rid of it today - it's not going to break into the house and poke them with hot sticks while they sleep.
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Well if this problem carries over into the Lexus brand, we could see one of those flagship sedans auto-park itself into your neighbor's bedroom, when you're trying to park in front of your house.
My theory has been if you have a problem get rid of it and move on. I had a 2008 Honda Accord that had many issue's and Honda is in the denial mode just like Toyota. After battling Honda I traded that car in and bought a Fusion and since Honda has been clever enough to keep a good reputation even when you look at their forums that are full of problems I was able to get $2000.00 less than what I paid for it 2 years ago. I say if you do not trust your Toyota get rid of it before the resale value goes down the tube.
If something dissatisfies ya, move on and get something else that pleases you. Why obsess? In fact there may only be a potential risk in very very isolated cases. But the facts are that there are millions of these on the road with no issues....such as the OP's own vehicle and several more owned by posters herein....which indicates that the risk is miniscule if it even exists.
Those like mako's wife certainly have the right to their own views but then that's just a personal decision. Keep it or sell it. Move on and be happy.
Except the Fusion will not accelerate unless you want it too. I hope your Camry loves you too. :lemon:
Except the Fusion will not accelerate unless you want it too. I hope your Camry loves you too
Well said. It appears that Toyota has done a great job to brain wash their customers to be in denial as well, for their benefits.
if a person insists on ending his / her fear of runaway car just because he/she heard some stories on TV, does that sound like a "reasonable" fear to you?
Don't worry, my Camry definitely loves me and it's a much better vehicle than your Fusion. :lemon:
Are you willing to take on the Legal Ramifications of that too?
When you give, sell or donate the car."
are you suggesting that you haven't subjected others to possible dangers?
the only way of your not doing that is your non-existence. Killing oneself on the spot isn't sufficient because one's death can easily subject many others to possible danger.
if you have never existed, you may have a plausible argument that you may not have subjected others to possible dangers.
even in that, the people you could have saved would argue otherwise.
so I am not sure if you can ever avoid not subjecting others to possible dangers. then are you willing to take on the Legal Ramifications of that too?
guess not.
I don't let anybody brain wash me. I also own other vehicles other than a Toyota Camry, so I wouldn't say that I am brain washed by Toyota. Get your facts right boy.
Good luck with your beloved Camry. Personally, I'd just buy another brand and move on.
and if you think ANY manufacturer is immune from these types of problems, you'd be very mistaken.
Letter from TMS to NHTSA
#5. Description of Problem
NHTSA's summary:
Vehicle Make / Model: Model Year(s):
PONTIAC / VIBE 2009
TOYOTA / AVALON 2005-2010
TOYOTA / CAMRY 2007-2010
TOYOTA / COROLLA 2009-2010
TOYOTA / COROLLA MATRIX 2009-2010
TOYOTA / HIGHLANDER 2010
TOYOTA / RAV4 2009-2010
TOYOTA / SEQUOIA 2008-2010
TOYOTA / TUNDRA 2007-2010
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 10V017000
Summary:
TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2005-2010 AVALON, MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 CAMRY, MODEL YEAR 2009-2010 COROLLA, COROLLA MATRIX, RAV4, MODEL YEAR 2010 HIGHLANDER, MODEL YEAR 2008-2010 SEQUOIA, AND MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 TUNDRA. DUE TO THE MANNER IN WHICH THE FRICTION LEVER INTERACTS WITH THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL INSIDE THE PEDAL SENSOR ASSEMBLY, THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE LEVER MAY BECOME SMOOTH DURING VEHICLE OPERATION. IN THIS CONDITION, IF CONDENSATION OCCURS ON THE SURFACE, AS MAY OCCUR FROM HEATER OPERATION (WITHOUT A/C) WHEN THE PEDAL ASSEMBLY IS COLD, THE FRICTION WHEN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS OPERATED MAY INCREASE, WHICH MAY RESULT IN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECOMING HARDER TO DEPRESS, SLOWER TO RETURN, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION.
Consequence:
THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY BECOME HARD TO DEPRESS, SLOW TO RETURN TO IDLE, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.
I heard on the news that Toyota was going to cut some of the gas pedal off of every car that has been recalled until they come up with a permanent fix? Now I read above that it is a mechanical sticking problem so how is making the gas pedal shorter going to help? So far I have lost my floor mats and now half my gas pedal whats next?
Your first comment is about the bogus NHTSA-forced recall where they want Toyota to protect the public from stupid actions on the part of owners and others ( like Lexus dealers ); i.e. reshape the pedal so that you can get a brick and several layers of floor mats under the pedal without trapping it. Nobody is touching my mats nor the gas pedal on my Prius. The two can't come anywhere near one another. Common sense goes a long way in life.
The second comment is more likely the real issue in the vast majority of cases where no one has been able to find any cause yet. TBD.
Many people who experienced unintended acceleration are like this couple and don't believe the pedal explanation. Take a look at that mat. it's well designed with a large open area where the heel of the shoe would normally rest on a plastic area on the car's own original mat.
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8996722
Second, the admission by Toyo that there may be a mechanical problem, only a mechanical problem, in the next round of recalls. They say it could be a polishing effect on the surfaces that rub being affected by moisture due to the heater? I can't see the physics they're alleging to be occuring there. When the heater is blowing warmer air, the relative humidity is down and any condensate on the pedal parts, which are inside the car, would be warming up.
Third, note in the video in this ABC News report
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/runaway-toyotas-problem-persists-recall/story?id=9- 618735&page=1
that the Toyo dealer replaced the interior drive-by-wire parts and the throttle body which are the parts on the engine, but all of these changes were exclusive of any other controlling parts such as the powertrain control-the computer or the cruise control computer.
Notice that Mr. Haggerty was able to check the pedal and the floor mat area in the car. He was not in a high traffic area like the San Diego state patrolman. Mr. Haggerty says it was not intrusion by the mat under the pedal.
The effect of the acceleration by at least one complaint I've read said it felt just like the cruise control taking over and accelerating the car.
Appearances are that we're creeping up on Toyo slowly having to admit to a real problem which is in the electronics controlling the system. Some of the problems may be in a sensor having worn so much in cars that are relatively new that they may be sticky due to water on the contact surfaces? Where exactly does this water come from?
As Judge Judy says if something doesn't sound logical then it's not.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota OTOH has presented a factual case to the NHTSA. Everything else is speculation by uninformed distant parties.
that's interesting.
the cause, according to toyota, is essentially that the gas pedal can get stuck.
what I never understood from the sensationalized news stories produced for the mass is what were the drivers doing when that happened? they kept talking about acceleration - which seems to be consistent with Toyota's story of stuck gas pedal.
but how about the brakes? none of the stories mentioned anything about the drivers attempting to brake.
it seems to me if your car is accelerating uncontrollably, a competent driver's first reaction should be to brake. No matter how powerful of an engine, it cannot possibly overcome a functional brake.
so what were those drivers doing with regards to their brakes when the accidents took place?
is this a case of incompetent drivers + dumb news media compounded by design flaws, like the Audi story?
or there is something more to the Toyota admission?
While reaching for the shifter - manual or automatic - and shifting to NEUTRAL.
My father taught me that back in the 1950s and nothing has changed. When I took driver's ed in the '60s they taught the same thing. Cars back then had mechanical linkages and would get really gunked up with leaking engine oil and road grime and the accelerator could easily stick.
John
From what I have read if the car is in full throttle mode and you are already going 50 or higher your brakes will heat up very quickly and wear very quickly and who knows how all the other safety devices help this situation get worse like the EBD system that has your back brakes do most of the stopping and how about the ABS that all cars have today that prevent your wheels from skidding but that means the brake can not lock the wheel up and this could be why they could not stall their engine and eventually melt their brakes. I would say that those people probably put the brake pedal through the floor board but did not think about disconnecting the engine from the transmission (neutral)
gtgtcobra:
Come on are you for real? Toyota is recalling 3.5 million cars because of this problem so they think its a big deal and I am sure there are many families that have been affected by this that thinks its a big deal. Sometimes I think you are arguing the facts just for the fun of arguing?
if you were right we would have tons of accidents all over the highway around the country because those vehicles go much faster than 50mph and most of modern vehicles have esd/abs if you look at the engines most of them output 200 - 300 pound-ft torque at the flywheel and much less at the driving wheels and i have yet to hear problems of people slowing down at high speed or cars taking off with the brake floored so in the absence of additional information i will go with the assumption that the drivers are to blame for their own incompetency otherwise the story is very hard to comprehend and the absence of braking information in the news reporting looks suspicious but that's just me
Do some research on the internet not only about the
runaway acceleration issue but also did you hear
about:
1. Sludge - still a big problem in used Toyotas
2. Rusting frames on Tacomas and Tundras to
the point where parts bolted to them including
gas tanks are falling offf the vehicles while
driven
Worst of all this is the sticking accelerator pedals have resulted in 16 deaths and 243 injuries; who is there now for those families and the those that have lost their loved ones?
Everytime I read this article I am just speechless:
LA Times details Toyota history of concealing safety issues
The following reader comments give a much broader scope to the issue than from just the few here on this forum:
Comments
And more comments: More Reader Comments
1. Oil sludging atonement: Toyota settles class-action suit
2. Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota pickup frames piling up, Toyota extends rust warranty on older Tacoma pickups to 15 years, and Toyota forced to submit data on Tundra frame rust to NHTSA
My concern is What's Next????? :confuse:
>rusting frames
You missed the shift hesitation that seemed to run through the various models, lexus, Camry, etc., a couple years back. That was blamed on the drive-by-wire needs also at first and blamed on driver's lack of understanding how to drive... :P It seemed a major problem when people needed to make a switch from slowing down to rapid acceleration to merge such as a ramp with heavy traffic.
http://www.topix.com/forum/autos/toyota-camry/T0N6BEDCKA0VVT2E5
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's exactly what I see happening. At first Toyota was so giddy about having blamed all the reports on mats catching that they issued their own statement that everything was all solved before the NHSTA did so. They got taken to the woodshed by NHSTA who said "Wait a minute, that's not what WE said."
Then the San Diego accident where a state patrolman could not get the shifter into neutral, couldn't turn off the motor, and couldn't stop. And the black box was "too damaged to be useful" was the interpretation from the only company that only had one reader able to decode the data in the box--Toyota said it had no info!!!! Hmmmm.
Then the excuse that it's the rheostat that's inside the car that determines the setting of the accelerator pedal. The surface contact wears out quickly (the Lexus was a 2009???) and can stick because of water due to condensation from the heater blowing hot air on it? Hmmmmm. Doesn't compute with my knowledge of physics. That doesn't pass the smell test. My son's going to ask his AP Physics teacher about the possibility of that happening.
Toyota has been too eager to jump on this explanation, again.
Note the ABC report has Toyota replacing both the throttle body unit with the motor varying the airflow based on electrical signals received from a computer which is interpreting the reading from the accelerator pedal unit inside the car. Mr. Haggerty, in the ABC report, didn't say anything about Toyota store replacing a computer.
Of course there may be more than one failure causing problems in more than one car. At least Mr. Haggerty was able to shift in and out of neutral. His shifter may have a mechanical connection to the transmission; the Toyota Lexus of the San Diego state patrolman may have had a shift-by-wire setup which may have been unable to shift. Noone can suggest with a straight face that the state patrolman didn't try to shift into neutral.
There's more to come in this saga. It's like the sludge where it slowly came around to admission after many people were blamed for cars sludging that were serviced per Toyota's then current requirements for mileage and oil type.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Personally, I won't be getting rid of my Tacoma (Toyota #8 for me) and buying anything else... especially since there isn't really anything else comparable for me to buy... thanks to the American truck manufacturers that keep making trucks larger and larger so they won't even fit in American garages... oh that's right, GM, Ford and Dodge keep making profit on them (and nothing else apparently). And Toyota has money to fix the problem... unlike the others. I'm still amazed these "drive by wire" mechanisms used by EVERYONE now haven't caused more problems than they have. Even if my Toyota turned to absolute trash, it would still be worth more $$$ tomorrow than anything else.
In the mean time, unlike most, apparently... if the accelerator sticks, I know how to shift to neutral and turn off the key
2009 Toyota Camry (4cyc):
Pro - Ride, Build quality, Passenger room/comfort
Con - Steering feel
2010 Toyota Camry (4cyc):
Pro - Passenger room/comfort and Ride
Con - Build quality, Interior materials, Steering feel
From what we are seeing with the recent recalls, Toyota quality is not what it use to be which would give me little reason to consider a 2010 Toyota.
Best Buys include the Chevrolet Malibu, Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Mazda 6, Mercury Milan, and Toyota Prius.
Recommended picks are the Kia Rondo, Subaru Legacy, Subaru Outback, and Toyota Camry.
Should be even more interesting if in 2011 the Toyota Camry is even on the Recommended list.
The issue is Toyota claims to be better and different (superior) than ANY other manufacturer which makes this issue more disappointing than if it was from ANY other manufacturer.
The suppliers here in the USA who make the gas pedal assembly and all the other parts for all the American built Toyotas build low quality parts.
Get rid of the US suppliers and have these same parts manufactured ONLY in Japan together with the vehicle and you solve the quality issues and fit and finish and sludge problems.
The ONLY cars which Toyota does NOT have on the recall list is the Prius, Yaris, the FJ and the Scion vehicles. All of these 4 vehicles are built 100% in Japan with 100% Japanese parts and they have excellent built quality and excellent fit and finish. Face it people. Any Toyota that is NOT built in Japan is going to have quality and fit and finish problems. Toyota should revert 100% of their auto production back to Japan. I doubt that this will ever happen though. There will always be problems with American built Toyota vehicles as long as they are still built here in the USA and Canada. The quality will not change for the better.
Japan built is the best. American built is :lemon:
Build ALL Toyotas 100% in Japan with 100% Japanese made parts and the problem is solved.
It's easy as that.