Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Afraid Camry Owner - Toyota found to keep tight lid on potential safety

1234579

Comments

  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    I'm also watching this "Trouble with Toyotas" as a buying opportunity....

    I prefer manual transmissions and it as occurred to me that a good old-fashioned clutch pedal pretty much cancels out any accelerator problem without adding modifications.....

    I'm sure this thought has probably occurred with others....
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    How will you buy one when they have a "stop sale" on them.

    With a manual a person could simply step on the clutch if the gas pedel stuck but would they think to do that? Just like simply shutting off the ignition.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    This all comes down to Toyota compromised on quality control in an overzealous drive to cut costs and expand sales during its climb to the top of the world auto market.

    It will be interested to see if Toyota follows through as the company they claim to be: Issue a buyback for ALL effected vehicles and offer either a refund or comparable; otherwise, it will go to prove Toyota really is no different than Ford, GM, Honda, or Nissan...including their perceived level of quality.

    An unfortunate lesson learned...Shame on Toyota!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    All of this conversation belongs in the topic linked in the header of this discussion. Please click on the link and continue there.

    Meanwhile we can continue talking about safety issues as they relate specifically to the Camry here.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "I'm also watching this "Trouble with Toyotas" as a buying opportunity.... "

    that's smart. people usually overreact to good news and bad news.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    I sure hope Toyota does the right thing and offers us Toyota owners the option of them buying back our vehicles...I have nothing more now than a lemon :lemon:
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "I have nothing more now than a lemon"

    it depends on what you define as a lemon.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "This all comes down to Toyota compromised on quality control in an overzealous drive to cut costs and expand sales during its climb to the top of the world auto market."

    you know that because?
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    I think this is the bottom line: things do break from time to time and mistakes are made from time to time, even by reputable OEMs and in spite of their best intention.

    and risks come with life and with asset ownership. the only way not to take risks is not to own anything and not to live.

    do this math: of those millions of vehicles subject to the recall, how many of them have reported "sudden acceleration"? at that kind of odds, you can win many lotteries easily.
  • johngf1johngf1 Member Posts: 37
    This is just another example of Toyo not doing the right thing! I own a 2007 Camry LE and had problems for the first 8 months until I read about the "hesitation " problem for selected/ early Camrys. They knew the Vin numbers affected but didn't inform owners of the problem. Fortunately, Edmund's Forums possible saved my life since the software fix made a material difference and eliminate the hesitation.

    Next the cover up and lack of action for the floor mat problems. They knew of the problem but waited months until sending notices to Camry owners. The FIX still hasn't been implemented.

    This is the final straw for me - This runaway issue is potentially too dangerous for me and I don't feel like waiting months for Toyota's solution.

    TOYOTA - FORGET ABOUT JD POWER RATINGS ! STOP DRAGGING YOUR FEET AND DO THE RIGHT THING. Correct ASAP - SOONER NOT LATER. BTW - I DON'T really think Toyota is "voluntarily" recalling these vehicles! Do you?
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "This runaway issue is potentially too dangerous for me and I don't feel like waiting months for Toyota's solution. "

    then dump your Toyota. that's where you can really hit back at them.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Try telling that to the families who have died because of this and the hundreds that have been injured.

    Point is Toyota built itself on its so called Quality which is why I bought my current Camry. Now for all of this to unfold says alot about Toyota. They did everything possible to avoid this and cover it up until the news finally broke.

    The sad thing is, even with the loss of all the people from associated accidents, Toyota would had continued to deny there was a problem to save their image.

    Sorry, but all I can say is SHAME ON TOYOTA! You let not only me down, but all the Toyota owners who bought into believing Toyota quality was 2nd to none. Instead of trying to become the biggest automaker, they should have focused on being the best.

    Maybe they need to go back to the drawing board and review the commercials they tried to get the consumer to buy into.

    Toyota Welcome Home TV Commercial

    or maybe they need to reintroduce the 1990 Toyota Camry
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    "How will you buy one when they have a "stop sale" on them."

    I'm very sure that will be temporary. Unfortunately after Toyota announces "OK - All is well", consumers will still be gun-shy.

    As for your other point - still not being able to disable the Camry or other vehicle - I'm done with that argument - you either believe the car has some sort of propensity to be a "Christine-like" killing machine or a reasonable vehicle that has unfortunately had accelerator hick-ups that need to be addressed and nothing more. Pick your poison and move on.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Most of the Toyota's involved are FWD or F/awd and those, even disregarding the current situation, are dangerous enough already, let alone putting in a manual transmission that would get most of today's buying public in deep do-do.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Turning off the ignition...

    And LOCK the stearing wheel..??
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It won't lock unless it gets turned all of the way over I don't think.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Where do you come up with those numbers? " Hundreds"? Where are you getting this?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...material difference.."

    Yes.

    "..eliminate the hesitation.."

    No.

    The 1-2 second downshift delay/hesitation is still in there, just cloaked to virtual invisibility with the latest firmware "patch".
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    "You let not only me down, but all the Toyota owners who bought into believing Toyota quality was 2nd to none."

    Please don't include me in your tirades. This is life; stuff happens; mechanical stuff breaks; you fix it. Nothing is perfect. Anyway, that's my experience during 50 years of driving a wide variety of makes and models.

    John
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..I don't think.."

    Exactly, I'd have to look it up to really know. But absent really knowing, for sure, wouldn't most of us hesitate using the key to switch off the engine..??

    And what about the PB start/stop, when does that lock the stearing wheel..?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    So, how often do you join in a friendly neighborhood game of russian roulette..?

    5 empty chambers or 2 million, your "number" might be next up.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    This is life; stuff happens; mechanical stuff breaks; you fix it. Nothing is perfect.

    No, I do not find that acceptable from an automaker to proclaims itself to be different and above the rest. Your reason you would find with any other automaker, not Toyota. Unless there image has been truly fabricated.

    Toyota Quality - Who Could Ask for Anything More!"

    Oh my, how embarrassing is that??????????????
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I'll play with the next one I see to see if one click locks the steering wheel but I don't think so.

    So, just throw it in neutral!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    NOT FAIR...

    That will give you an advantage in this game of russian(toyota) roulette.
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    I think you responded to the wrong poster.....

    I (ponderpoint) never said;

    "You let not only me down, but all the Toyota owners who bought into believing Toyota quality was 2nd to none."
  • dookie84dookie84 Member Posts: 33
    Funnily enough, I named my car Christine before this all happened.This was because the XLE is very bossy about things - although she very smart - like knowing which way to blow the air when on Auto mode and whether the air should be recirculated. :) Sometimes she bongs at me and I have no idea what she is trying to tell me.

    Toyota needs to go on TV with a mea culpa, an apology and say they are doing everything they can to fix the problem as soon as possible.

    My initial complaint about the 2010 I bought in October was the hesitation when I firdt stepped on the accelerator. I don't know if this is in any way related to what's going on right now.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "Try telling that to the families who have died because of this and the hundreds that have been injured."

    that's very unfortunate, for the families and for Toyota.

    "Point is Toyota built itself on its so called Quality "

    and they delivered on that - quality is a statistical concept. While Toyota's quality continues to lead the pack, Toyota never marketed it to say that their vehicles are free of defect, or that everyone of their vehicles are free of defect.

    "which is why I bought my current Camry. "

    what can I tell you? just because some buyers have the wrong perception of what was communicated to them doesn't mean those buyers have earned the right to blame the communicator.

    At some point, people have to be responsible for their own mistakes.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "No, I do not find that acceptable from an automaker to proclaims itself to be different and above the rest."

    where is the logic here?
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    ponderpoint, i had the same thought about manual-transmission camrys and other toyotas. presumably those will be safer than the models with automatic transmission?

    however it also seems likely that some "unintended accel" accidents/incidents could have occurred with manual transmission Camrys - but maybe not as severe? Maybe zero fatalities have occurred with manual-transmissions toyotas/camrys so far? Maybe all the very severe incidents that caused casualties were with automatic-transmission cars? I suppose this data is all there in the NHTSA database/website in case we really want to peruse it...
  • johngf1johngf1 Member Posts: 37
    I did. I bought a 2010 Honda Accord Coupe. Unfortunately, I gave the camry to my son who is now justifiably concerned. If toyo doesn't correct SOON, i'm sure he'll dump and forever switch from toyo!
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "some "unintended accel" accidents/incidents"

    I always view those unintended acceleration with doubts, especially when the supposedly "root cause" is a sticky accelerator.

    a sucky accelerator may have caused "unintended acceleration, :) but a sticky accelerator?

    and the brakes would have to fail at the same time too.

    .....
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "I gave the camry to my son who is now justifiably concerned."

    don't let him wait for a fix from Toyota. Get him another vehicle ASAP.

    you monetary lose from a bad car is a few hundred dollars or maybe a couple grand. your emotional lose from a bad car injuring your son is priceless.
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    "it also seems likely that some "unintended accel" accidents/incidents could have occurred with manual transmission Camrys - but maybe not as severe?"

    Oh sure - I don't disagree with that at all. To me the clutch pedal just gives another avenue of safety, not a "cure all".

    You have to admit - a big pedal on the floor that instantly disconnects the engine from the drivetrain (essentially) is a pretty powerful tool for safety.
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    to anyone reading...couldnt you just put car in neutral?...what happened to cop in his lexus that crashed in CA?...i only buy underrated domestics...i dont think there is a big difference in any car on market w/ quality, but honestly i would be scared to buy a toy till they fix this...plus that their engines sludge if you run oil too long before changing, not that i would ever do that...i read about a tech in bitog saying he saw a lot of toy sludge, mainly due to long oil change intervals or even as little as 6k
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    " a big pedal on the floor that instantly disconnects the engine from the drivetrain (essentially) is a pretty powerful tool for safety."

    a driver who knows how to drive a car is the most powerful tool for safety.

    unfortunately, s/he is in short supply.
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    "to anyone reading...couldnt you just put car in neutral?...

    Yes. Quite simply, yes. You are far to logical to be here - get out before somebody performs "rocket surgery" on your logic reasoning and common sense!!!

    Once again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoIIT0WJS4s

    Drive safely and enjoy your Toyota

    Snark away.... Last post....
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    That's a good link that every driver (not just Toyota) should watch.

    Man, this is getting messy.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    In response to Toyota’s massive pedal recall, the country’s biggest wholesale automobile auctions are parking the automaker’s products until a fix is made. Major car auctions, like those run by Manheim and ADESA, are vital to the used car industry, and their decision will likely have an affect on both availability and residual value of many Toyota cars.

    “The safety of our customers and employees is our utmost priority, and in that regard, the suspension should continue until the issues have been resolved,” the National Auto Auction Association said in a statement released to the media.

    ADESA and Manheim together control well over half of the wholesale auction industry in the United States.

    The decision to pull recalled Toyotas from the auctions follows the footsteps of many major rental car agencies, which are not renting recalled Toyotas until a fix is made. Hertz, Enterprise (which runs Alamo and National), Avis Budget and Dollar Thrifty have all decided to stop renting Toyotas until a fix is made.

    Used car retailer CarMax has also decided to temporarily halt selling all new and used Toyotas that would be covered under the recall.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    indeed millwood0, that is precisely what I understand has been happening in the "worst case" in the field: brakes, auto-trans-gearshift, and ignition-off apparently all fail at once, as computer/software is wrongly convinced that driver wants maximum throttle.
    corner-case. race condition. rare occurrence.
    but overall it's guaranteed to happen way-too-often when there are so many millions of susceptible vehicles on the roads.
    i have made much of my career by of hunting & eliminating problems like this for communications embedded-systems products.

    chetj, that is precisely part of the problem - it appears that in some cases the car apparently will NOT shift into neutral. in some cases it will shift into neutral. in this area i disagree with ponderpoint's analysis, but i sure agree with regard to manual-transmission/clutch.

    one reason I am convinced that the vehicles sometimes will not shift into neutral is the Lexus-driving-cop-and-family on his 911 call saying something closely resembling "It won't shift into neutral, and the ignition will not turn off". that tape is probably on youtube/whatever/abc-news. maybe i am not remembering/quoting what the cop said just before he and his family died in their non-Camry - please correct me if so.

    Not sure if there are any 911-audio-tapes of Camry drivers in the similar predicament.
  • vivalaselvisvivalaselvis Member Posts: 1
    This problem is a lot bigger than what they are saying and goes back a lot longer to
    I was a flag waving, card carring member of the I LOVE MY TOYOTA CLUB until my 1996 Camry, one day in 08, it just accelerated on its own. I was at a stop light with my foot on the brake ( thank God) and the engine just started to run faster and faster and it was pulling away. It was like someone just stepped on the gas and pinned the peddle to the floor. There was nothing I could do. I had both feet pressing on the brake peddle as hard as I could. I was literally standing on it and my butt was off the front seat trying to control this car. My wheels were smoking, my brakes were smoking, it was a nightmare. I slammed it in into neutral then into park and shut the car off. Waited a while and started the car again leaving it in park. It seemed fine. no revving, not sense that it was accelerating on its own. I was about a mile from my house and wanted to get it into the drive way and off the road. I put it into park and let it roll a bit on its own. Seemed ok. So I put my foot lightly on the gas, still ok. About a half a mile of driving very gingerly- its starts to take off again, exact same thing and I was hardly touching the gas.

    If my 69 year old mother was driving she never would have been able to handle or control that car the way it was behaving.

    So I called Toyota- they said they never heard of that before- but funny how my mechanic did. He thought he fixed it once- then on the way home from the mechincs it took off again. Then he got in it and it took off on him. After he began doing some research and knowing a few long time mechanics for toyota- it was acknowledge that this was a problem they had seen before. about $1000 later it seemed fixed. I drove it for a month to make sure- but I wasn't comfortable driving it anymore even though i LOVED THAT CAR and took great care of it- I sold it. I now drive a Honda Accord. Not nearly as smooth a ride as my Camry, but so far it hasn't launched me down the street.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    This problem is a lot bigger than what they are saying and goes back a lot longer

    That is only beginning to be known; the TOYOTA RECALLS HAVE ONLY BEGUN!
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    CTS Corporation, the Indiana-based supplier of accelerator pedals blamed for Toyota’s massive – and growing – recall, says that it was building the pedals to the automaker’s standards and that responsibility for the allegedly faulty part lies on Toyota.

    Mitchell Walorski, head of the supplier’s investor relations department, told Automotive News that CTS is assisting Toyota, “but this is their recall. Toyota is heavily involved in all stages of testing and production. That is why their quality is so high.”

    “The newly designed pedal is now tested, and parts are beginning to ship to some Toyota factories,” CTS said in a statement released to the media. Toyota says it has not decided if it will ship the new pedals to dealers to have them installed in unsold inventory and customer cars or if service departments will modify the existing design.

    Elkhart, Indiana-based CTS began producing the pedals last year at its Mississauga, Ontario, assembly plant when Denso was unable to supply enough for Toyota.

    CTS isn’t taking the blame for crashes involving Toyota vehicles, however.

    “We are aware of fewer than a dozen instances where this condition has occurred, and in no instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially depressed condition,” the company said in a statement.

    CTS builds pedals for a number of automakers, each based on a different design. The company says that the Ford pedals it builds in China for that market’s Transit Classic large truck is of a different design.

    Toyota has separately recalled many of its models over floor mats which the automaker says can become lodged against the gas pedal or which prevent the brake pedal from operating.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    During a routine test on its Sienna minivan in April 2003, Toyota Motor Corp. engineers discovered that a plastic panel could come loose and cause the gas pedal to stick, potentially making the vehicle accelerate out of control. :sick:

    The automaker redesigned the part and by that June every 2004 model year Sienna off the assembly line came with the new panel. Toyota did not notify tens of thousands of people who had already bought vans with the old panel, however.

    It wasn't until U.S. safety officials opened an investigation last year that Toyota acknowledged in a letter to regulators that the part could come loose and "lead to unwanted or sudden acceleration."

    In January, nearly six years after discovering the potential hazard, the automaker recalled 26,501 vans made with the old panel.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Your 1st post on Edmunds and it`s Toyota bashing...Jeez...Now a 96 camry !!! Next thing will be a 1980 Camry/Corolla getting SUA..C`mon folks --get real ,stop the mass hysteria and be practical ! :shades:
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    when will the lawsuits begin?
    a coworker of mine sued chrysler for not recalling his early-year minivan after they knew-of-dangerous-issue redesigned the e-brake-cable for future years. the defect resulted in his rear brakes locking up in a snowstorm, and his wife and 2 daughters died.
    he sued Chrysler and "won" about $10M. This was in the late 1990s.
    seems to me that Toyota is going to be receiving to a BUNCH of lawsuits like that.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Toyota has a history of delaying the recall a safety defect until long after it had discovered the problem.

    In 1994, NHTSA slapped Toyota with a $250,000 fine, at the time the agency's second-largest, for providing misleading information about a fuel leak in Land Cruisers and waiting two years to undertake a recall to fix the problem. Toyota acknowledged that it failed to conduct a timely recall but denied withholding information from the agency.

    A decade later, Toyota recalled about 330,000 vehicles in Japan after a 2004 crash there -- caused by a broken steering linkage -- seriously injured five people. The vehicle in the accident, a Hilux Surf, was sold in the U.S. as the 4Runner. Other truck models sold here, including the Toyota 4x4 and T100 pickups, also used the same linkage, a steering relay rod.

    Despite that, the company told NHTSA in an October 2004 letter that it would not conduct a U.S. recall because it had not received information here indicating a problem with the part.

    Documents entered in four lawsuits filed in Los Angeles this year, however, show that Toyota had received numerous consumer complaints dating from 2000 and had replaced dozens of the parts under warranty. The documents also show that Japanese police, in an investigation of the defect, said that Toyota employees had known about the problem since 1992 and should have initiated a recall immediately.

    In September 2005, Toyota recalled nearly 1 million vehicles in the U.S. to replace the part, its second-largest campaign.

    Toyota delays have deadly consequences. Zackary Audulewicz of Ila, Georgia paid the price for Toyota's delays. The 20-year-old was driving a Toyota 4x4 in August 2003 when the pickup lost control after a "pop" and a "spark".
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    If you own one of the models listed in the recall and have actually experienced the unintended acceleration, please send an email with details of the experience and how it felt.

    [email protected]
  • jeffb1124jeffb1124 Member Posts: 13
    Here is the call:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03m7fmnhO0I

    At no time can you hear anyone indicate the car would not shift into neutral. In fact from the San Diego police report the driver who had the mat problem only a few days before, in the same car, was able to shift into neutral then move the mats away from the gas pedal.
    Here is a link to the San Diego county sheriffs police report:

    http://autos.aol.com/gallery/saylor-crash-report#

    If you go to page 28 the report will tell you what gear the car may have been in when the crash happened.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..a driver who knows how to drive a car and react quickly and "properly" to an anomalous situation is the most powerful tool for safety..."

    Yes, not many of those around, just as it should be.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The carpet mat issue is REAL, I can personally vouch for the "viaibility of that as it has happened to me twice in the past10-15 years.

    The sticking gas pedal is REAL.

    None of that means, conclusively, that there isn't yet another causative factor waiting in the weeds to be discovered.

    I'm personally casting my vote for a "bug" in the firmware.

    But again, even if "this" problem isn't discoverable in the short term an interim solution, WOT failsafe solution, will be quite easy to implement.
This discussion has been closed.