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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    You meant Johnson and Johnson didn't you??? You had said PGE??

    AS for J&J - Tylenol incident!!! They did excellent!! Actually became hereos in minds of most US citizens. Somewhere I had saved an article where a consultant on crisis management was analyzing Toyota's approach to press pressure & coverage. Found - here is link. Just one consultant view
    http://www.newsweek.com/id/232962

    Are you in Pennsylvania???? Just curious as my daughter inlaw worked with them on east coast for awhile as a consultant. My son was going to Pennsylvania medical school at time. Lived in Havertown which was only about 20-30 minutes from J&J.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, I understand what you are saying. At least it was a start for Toyota as he states at hearing and as he had claimed all along. Know he was trying to say system did not pick error up so failsafe systems never engaged. I just don't know enough aobut electronics to evaluate this aspect.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited February 2010
    Sharon...I'm just outside of Cincinnati. I have many friends who work for P&G, in many capacities (including their engineering dept). And, I have many friends who work for Toyota, both in their North American HQ, which is right across the OH river from Cincinnati, in Erlanger, KY and in a suburb of Cincinnati called Blue Ash, which houses Toyota's marketing dept.

    I spent many years with Xerox personally, as well as with some other high profile, high tech companies, many of whom were partners with Toyota.

    So, I get a healthy dose of the way "big business" works, personally, socially and professionally. I'm trying to think of a way that Toyota could have screwed this up worse. And, I'm having a hard time doing so.

    They broke the very first rule, for any company....

    LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS. Instead, Toyota dismissed their complaints. Some of those dismissals turned into accidents, some turned into injuries, and at their very worst, some turned into deaths. In many instances, they tried to blame their customers, which only made things even worse. On top of all of that, they've tried to cover up their failures.

    I really don't know how much worse they could have made it on themselves unless they actually went out and shot their customers.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    DW..Dear Wife.

    "..Do you have link where Gilbert says he did use 0.02 voltage..."

    I have presumed that Dr Gilbert simply shorted the two signals together without realizing that it would take a really SOLID short to reduce the voltage differences between the two sensors to less than 0.02 volts. Less than 0.02 volts is the threshold required for the Denso ECU to detect that the two sensors are shorted together.

    And yes, I agree, "this" would be only a starting point for Toyota. "this" is a certain and sure indication that someone at Denso is specifying and/or writing seriously FLAWED firmware.

    "..He does development/engineering for Porsche.."

    Then is there any change he could get them to fix the design flaw in my '01 Porsche C4's climate control system..?? VW had the very same problem in their Cayenne clone (common climate control..Bosch) and fixed it via a firmware reflash but Porsche simply claims it is operating as designed...

    My Porsche, and ALL Porsches subsequent to 2000, will quite thoroughly CHILL the interior surface the windshield with the A/C cooling once the cabin temperature stabilizes around the temperature setpoint.

    Not really a problem unless you happen to be driving after a very HOT day in July shortly after dusk on a very HUMID evening in Alabama, or like situation. Wipers wipe it away instantly but only after you realize your nighttime forward distance vision is declining, has seriously declined, due to the slow build up of condensation on the exterior of the windshield.

    So now I ALWAYS override the windshield airflow duct routing whenever the A/C is not disabled.

    "..brakes would win out....correct assumption ?.."

    Possibly NOT..!

    That all depends on just how the BTO, Brake/Throttle Override, is implemented. If it is simply integrated into the current DBW and/or engine/transaxle ECU controlling firmware, say via a simple reflash, then it would be subject to the same failure modes currently in consideration.

    The proper way, failsafe way, would be a completely separate implementation of BTO. Say a small module that "watched" the brake light switch, the brake fluid pressure switch, and both of the throttle plate servomotor feedback position sensors. If the brake light switch remained closed for more than say, 200 milliseconds OR the brake fluid pressure rose above a certain predetermined level, AND the throttle plate position remained above idle, the new module would open the EFI circuit and thereby starve the engine of fuel.
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    I understand what you are saying as that part has been said/proven many times in the recent past and stated by possibly yourself and others on several occassions , it is obvious that in some cases and most definetly in the CHP tragedy that the brakes are no match for 400 or so hp. Im not sure whether Im asking this properly or not but what Im asking for is simple, its this " first hand, personal reports of UA and whether during UA turning off the key worked and if not, what exactly occurred when the key was turned off" The answer to that question is in no way definitive as to how UA has or will respond , but merely adds to the broader base of information, which can not be a bad thing.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    400HP sets the "bar" pretty high. Braking systems are designed to be adequate at stopping the car WITHOUT the engine still driving, at WOT hp yet, the primary braking wheels. With some cars it might only require, along with momentum, only 50-100 HP to keep the car moving beyond what many of us would consider a safe distance.

    These days most ignition "switches" only "tell" the engine/transaxle ECU that you wish to kill the engine. Any failures of that module or the controlling firmware and anything is up for "grabs".

    In the case of PB start/stop you might know to hold that PB down for 3 seconds in order to kill the engine but the firmware must be "alive and well", watching the PB switch, if it is to acknowledge your wish.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Smith's Testimony Tuesday February 23, 2010

    Smith's vehicle - 2006 Lexus ES350. Odometer reading 2760.
    SUA Incident - Oct 12, 2006

    I did not take notes in beginning of her testimony - but believe she was traveling on freeway - when vehicle took off. At that point I recall she took foot off pedal and braked hard. Car kept going. She did look down at her feet briefly to check(sort of natural). Said she didn't see anything- seemed fine. Over the 6 miles of trying to stop - vehicle was going at high speed - tried shifting into all gears she thought. Braking hard to no avail. That part of her testimony seemed to be a little unclear re: shifting to all gears. Even during her testimony it appeared she felt she did, but still appeared to be little confused here. She was upset and could see. Maybe this was cause?? She started crying at some point, stating she felt she was going to die - I foget when. Was still upset even talking about incident. From what I recall vehicle did start slowing on it's own. When she got it to aobut 35 miles I believe she said she was able to then get it to side of road. But even when she could stop it engine was still staying elevated lots higher. I believe she said she then turned it off.

    I do recall the brakes were gone after the incident. This would most definitely be expected. Something else was ruined too??? For that fact it could have been a transmisssion she needed too?? Brakes were gone as result of incident, and odometer reading on car was 2760. .

    Her husband came immediately as she had hit his # w auto dial on blue tooth while incident was occurring. He came immediately. As he was drving over he called AAA or when he arrived?? Car was not running at that point. With AAA as witness husband shifted vehicle into neutral to enable loading on flatbed, and car attempted to start on its own, and then think they said it stopped. Smith's called Lexus dealership and AAA took vehicle there. Smith's did have AAA responder document what happened when car put in neutral whilke trying to load vehicle on flatbed, and write little about what happened. Car at Lexus dealership - fixed. Brakes and something else. Did Toyota do more??? That is good question??? Since vehicle is still on road now with no more problems maybe so. Smith's did keep all the documentation. Car was fixed and was told by Toyota if vehicle maintained properly brakes will always override engine acceleration. There is no problem with her car. Floormats. Toyota was told how vehicle tried to start itself after incident also with AAA witness report showing same & full account of incident.. Mrs, Smith does not feel floormats were cause. She is positive there was no interference. Said amde no sense since vehicle was acting so strangely evn when they tried to load it on flatbed. Very upset she was not believed.

    One Note - my experience with my dealership - I find mine does not write complaints on work order. Why? I am not sure. Next time they won't get by with not doing.

    2007 They finally decided to file complaint with NHTSA. Felt they might get some help to prevent anyone else from having same experience as she did. Wrote letter and provided all the documentation. Seems NHTSA felt floor mats. Not electronics. Same result as Toyota.

    Mr. Smith
    Husband also testified but didn't say as much. Stated quite upset as both of them were treated like they were liars and idiots, and were not telling the truth. He feels Toyota took the cheapest way out. He feels NHTSA failed the public. Reminded NHTSA - one of mission statements is - save lives. Wanted to let everyone know they are not usually complainers, just decided was too serious. I forget if he ever said if he checked vehicle by brake pedal, etc. I would assume he would have - sort of the natural guy thing to do.

    Mrs. Smith - Social Worker. her testimoney was quite difficult for her recalling the incident.
    Mr.Smith - Vice Preident ????
    Both appear to be nice intelligent people. They appear to be amiable also. My guess is their documentation of car trying to start itself while loading on flatbed with an outside witness verifying this helped validate their case.

    All I have notes on. Probably is more. Couldn't write fast enough.
    I actually felt very sorry for both of these individuals. Incident was an emergency. People do not always do what is normal in these situations. Did she try all gears - don't know?? Does she think she tried all - I would guess yes. But possibly her noted hesitation here may indicate normally she questions too, but another side of her feels she did. Shifting is sort of irrelavant though. What she explained was high speed SUA event and she could not brake it to a stop. Vehicles only had 2760 miles odometer - brakes would still be excellent SUA high speed in itself is scarey.

    Are they suing? I don't know??? The costs of repair just donot justify the huge cost of attorney's fees to pursue a lawsuit. Mrs. Smith was not injured. Besides even if they would win, they would still have to collect. I really doubt any lawsuit brewing.

    Since this happened in 2006, present situation Toyota, publicity did not affect what happened to them 2006.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    sounds like 'Onstar'. we already know they can send you a vehicle health report or shut down you car, if requested.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    I think Dr. Gilbert demonstrated 'one way to skin a cat'. Where there is one way to trip up the ECU, there are probably others.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Agreed.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Akio Toyoda's story doesn't add up.

    The president of Toyota Motor Corp., the centrally controlled behemoth founded 73 years ago by his grandfather, told a congressional committee Wednesday that he didn't know about mounting sudden-acceleration complaints with Toyota vehicles until late last year.

    He also didn't know the substance of a corporate briefing paper prepared in July that touted $100 million in savings on recalls, warned about sudden acceleration complaints in Toyota and Lexus models and described a federal bureaucracy that is not "industry-friendly."

    But now, faced with a global brand and P.R. fiasco, Toyoda knows with "absolute certainty" that the sudden unintended acceleration complaints tied to 34 deaths and the recall of 8.5 million vehicles worldwide cannot be attributed to electronic throttle controls in Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks.

    Toyoda, the scion of the industrial dynasty, said the right things. He apologized. He took responsibility. He essentially admitted that ambition outstripped execution and strayed from the corporate creed that made Toyota the brand powerhouse it became.

    But he didn't bring an end to the nightmare. Buried in his careful statements is red meat for trial lawyers looking to make a buck off Toyota's $30 billion-plus cash hoard and red meat for like-minded politicians trolling for contributions from trial lawyers.

    More obvious is the unmistakable admission that Toyota, the gold standard of the global auto industry, allowed the arrogance of success to blind it to festering troubles within.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    So you are from Cincinnati. Sounds like you are an engineer. And you are not mad at me blasting PGE for their chromium pollution & their actions here in California? But facts are really there and chromium does cause high rates of cancer, etc. And you probably have great friends who work for Toyota. Your friends are who I worry about and feel sorry for.

    I thought when you mentioned J&J - just maybe you lived near where my son and daughter inlaw lived when my son was going to medical school. Shucks! But Ohio is quite nice I hear..

    LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS - yes, this does really seem to be a big area where they failed. During the hearing it was quite apparent there was a big breakdown in their system for f/u and thorough good investigation. Realized many difficult to address issues exist since all decisions mad in Japan. And am not sure of how Japan views our cultural values and US system, as I am not quite sure of theirs. With US market so large I do have concerns US can not make many of their own decisions. I guess only time will tell how much this has hurt them. Some people are not even paying attention to investigation.

    Blaming people/the drivers will never sit well. Got Audi in lots of trouble. This is just not a good public customer relations approach. There is an ole' philosophy customer is always right. We always referred to it as "The Nordstrom Treatment" -

    Since my husband was CEO of corporation and my son is CEO of his own corporation - yes I do understand some aspects a corporation from insiders perspective. I worked for Kaiser Permanente in San Francisco 20hrs/week as medical professional so I understand how large medical groups work to certain degree too. And there are good highly ethical corporations and then there are those who secretly are unethical. Of course the later hopes they don't get caught.

    COVERUP - Toyota hiring Exponent - after what I know about them, & their past actions - does make it appear they are hiding something. The timeline events that have unfolded seem to be pointing in that direction too. I personally feel as I said earlier Toyota needs Exponent for a few things. (1)No electronic problems report, (2)Exponent to help with legal engineering defense, be witness at trials (3)Help them avoid $hundred of millions settllement, (4)Etc. This is just my personal opinion only.

    Brake override should take care of electronic bugs that may cause SUA. Since this announcement came out Nov, 2009 think Toyota already knew where they stood. The number of SUA/UA incidents are small compared to number of vehicles sold. But there are at least 35 deaths. Hundreds of accidents. Sadly it does appear they have looked at this only using statistical methology. Seems possibly they ignored the importance of the human factor in the 35 deaths. This is not wise in US, as it usually will reach crisis at some point. And it did with the San Diego accident.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Car was fixed and was told by Toyota if vehicle maintained properly brakes will always override engine acceleration.

    Pretty ridiculous for Toyota to say that on a vehicle with 2760 miles. What kind of maintenance could she have done, or not done?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Key words, wording....

    Will always override engine acceleration.
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    Key question in the UA issue seems to be, "will brakes override a full throttle vehicle situation, where the vehicle continues at full throttle and speed AFTER the brakes are applied. I would theorize that neither Toyota, or any other auto manufacturer, designs brakes that are adequate to perform this "once in a million" task.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    DW - I love it! Tell her Hi!

    So you have a Porsche. So does my son. I am sorry to hear about the air conditioning problems. Not good. I know he doesn't work on air conditioning. So sorry. But I will be happy to call him tomorrow to see if he has problems, If so, has he been able to correct? Etc. I will get back to you.

    As for my son- actually he owns his own company. He doesn't work for Porsche. What he does is development/engineering post factory improved engine performance for the autos I mentioned earlier. Porsche is the biggest I think. At their site they do the development, testing, etc. Their site is all set up for the dyno & computer readout testing & they do for testing all the time. They only work on customers cars for special projects - ex: racing. special event, etc. Their distributors are the ones that buy the software upgrades to flash as customers request. Distributors make all decisions regarding any other needed vehicle changes due to this flash. They have other proucts they developed, but not sure what they are? I do apologize as my explanations are only my feeble attempt to explain and do appear quite simplistic.

    GILBERTS FINDINGS -
    Hereis a link to Kane's testimony. He has written a little about Dave Gilbert's test. I am not sure if this will help you understand what Gilbert found or not. Gilbert did up his own report and submitted, but have not found that report anywhere. Let me know if you find out anything in this article. Would sincerely appreciate.
    http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/Statement_SK_Energy_Commerce_Hearings%20SK- %20022110.pdf

    Seems you too think there is a problem. So Denso firmware possibly. Thanks for the heads up. I had sort of felt possible electronic problem existed last November when they announced brake override implementation, but needed to wait.

    BRAKE OVERRIDE - So best to always have separate system, or failure of brake override can occur too.. I wonder what Toyota will do?? Sounds like there is already a possible firmware problem present where a override flash just may not work either. Boy, I was thinking all along just a flash would do this. H-mmm. This is something very important to know. All I can say is thank you!!! Thank you!!
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Comment from Toyota was sort of ridiculous. Mr. Smith was one that my notes indicated said that is what their letter from Toyota said. I forget if I just aded to her or his??? Reference was to letter and Toyota's finding.

    I was very curiou about this mention of "if properly maintained" to. Gosh - this vehicle only had 2760 miles on it. Sounds more like a form letter, and someone didn't do their job.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    'Toyota defense' might rescue jailed Minnesota man
    LINO LAKES, Minn. (AP) - Ever since his 1996 Toyota Camry shot up an interstate ramp, plowing into the back of an Oldsmobile in a horrific crash that killed three people, Koua Fong Lee insisted he had done everything he could to stop the car.

    A jury didn't believe him, and a judge sentenced him to eight years in prison. But now, new revelations of safety problems with Toyotas have Lee pressing to get his case reopened and his freedom restored. Relatives of the victims - who condemned Lee at his sentencing three years ago - now believe he is innocent and are planning to sue Toyota. The prosecutor who sent Lee to prison said he thinks the case merits another look.

    "I know 100 percent in my heart that I took my foot off the gas and that I was stepping on the brakes as hard as possible," Lee said in an interview Wednesday at the state prison in Lino Lakes. "When the brakes were looked at and we were told that nothing was wrong with the brakes, I was shocked."

    Lee's accident is among a growing number of cases, some long resolved, that are getting new attention since Toyota admitted its problems with sudden acceleration were more extensive than originally believed. Numerous lawsuits involving Toyota accidents have been filed over the recent revelations, and attorneys expect the numbers will climb.

    Lee's Camry wasn't among those subject to Toyota's recent safety recalls, but Toyota did recall some 1996 Camrys for defective cruise controls that could cause sudden acceleration.

    Lee's current attorney, Brent Schafer, said several '96 Camry owners whose cars were not in the recall have filed sudden-acceleration complaints with federal regulators.


    Was this one of those many TSBs that get slipped in if you bring your Toyota in for service? How far back will Toyota have to go to get a clean slate?
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    So can we safely say that this event sheds very little light on what the effect of shutting off the ignition is?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Sharon....I'm not an engineer. My degree is in computer science. Unfortunately, I started an MBA, but put it on indefinite hold several years ago, choosing to spend more time with my family over night classes and hours of "home time" studying. Some say I did the right thing. I does bother me from time-to-time that I never finished the MBA....maybe after I retire many years down the line (when it will do me the least good).

    Overall, they've been a good corporate citizen to the local communities and to the U.S. But, P&G has their moments to make one pause with "what were they thinking?". It's definitely a different culture.....knowing a lot of their employees. You'll know a "P&G-er" when you meet one. That's not a bad thing. The reason I left Xerox after 10 years was for the same reason. I was engulfed in that culture, and didn't want to be.

    Enough about me, back to Toyota. From working with them, and having friends who work with them, overall they're very secretive. For a very long while, their engineering staff used a Computer Aided Design/Engineering (CAD/CAE) tool that was developed by them alone, even though there were much better solutions in the commercial market place. They've change in recent years and do now use commercially available CAD/CAE tools. But, those tools are only good if you implement them.

    I think one of Toyota's issues with relation to their current woes relates back to not doing enough CAD/CAE. They have to to get their vehicles designed. But, it's clear, in their race for expansion, that they didn't do enough. Nor, did they do enough real world testing. They can even do electronics and software simulation that would have uncovered a good portion of this issue. Clearly, they didn't do enough of that. They were in too much of a hurry to get new products out the door and onto the showroom floor.

    I read most of the automotive trade rags. Usually, there's a car that someone snapped a pic of showing real world testing in remote locations for things like extreme cold or extreme heat operation for example. I've seen those tests from just about every major auto manufacturer. Can't remember ever seeing Toyota do that....ever.

    I've owned Toyotas.....3 of them to be exact....one Tacoma, one Camry and one Avalon. They weren't any worse than any other brand I've owned when it comes to glitches. They weren't necessarily better, either. Maybe back in the '80s and '90s when General Motors, Ford and Chrysler were really making junk they were better. But, not now.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've seen those tests from just about every major auto manufacturer. Can't remember ever seeing Toyota do that....ever.

    Funny you should mention that. On one of my trips to Hawaii I saw the then not released Lexus RX400h being driven around the Big Island. I stopped into the local Toyota dealer in Hilo and they had no idea they were there. So was it testing or just using the testing budget on a trip to Hawaii? It seems I read later they had 6 of their new hybrid RX models in Hawaii for the press to do reviews. So it was probably advertising and not testing.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    edited February 2010
    Rhonda Smith testified that at 35 mph, pushing the ignition button still did not shut off the ignition but at 33 mph it did shut off. There are numerous other NHTSA accounts that the electronic input to the computer to shut off the engine was being ignored. The same is true of Rhonda's experience that the electronic command from the shifter to put the car in neutral or reverse was ignored. The gas pedal's electronic input that the engine should be at idle was being ignored. Even when the car did shut off, the dash lights stayed on indicating the car was still in a confused state. When her husband put it in neutral, the car made sounds like it was trying to start again. Keep in mind that the computer controls virtually everything.

    Has your PC ever locked up to a point where CTL-ALT-DEL and all other inputs are ignored? Have you ever had to hold the power button down on your laptop for a hard shutdown (which works due to a built in hardware override)? These sudden acceleration incidents are sometimes triggered at the same time that the driver taps the brake (sends an input to the computer), not the gas. If Toyota's engine control computer's confused state sets throttle to "full" and ignores further inputs, that would basically describe these incidents. The emergency advice to put the car in neutral, pull over and shut off the engine will prove futile. It only works in the demonstrations on TV because the computer is working during the demo.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    Has your PC ever locked up to a point where CTL-ALT-DEL and all other inputs are ignored? Have you ever had to hold the power button down on your laptop for a hard shutdown (which works due to a built in hardware override)?

    I have had those situations on almost every computer I have worked on or owned. It is either a Firmware or Software glitch. Hardware problems become evident very quickly and can be fixed. Software anomalies can and do happen. The NHTSA has said they were able to cause problems in Toyota DBW systems with EMI interference. They dropped that back in 2007. And who made that decision? Was it the employee ties shared with Toyota and the NHTSA?
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    Exactly. This point may have been made earlier, but whatever effect the brakes do originally have quickly becomes less effective as they get glowing hot from the first 1000+ feet of hard braking against a WOT.

    I think it is taking a long time for it to sink in that the computer controls virtually everything and most driver actions are just "electronic requests". I am sure we will ultimately learn that Toyota has a design flaw that other manufacturers did not miss in their designs. The data log they keep talking about that saves a few seconds of information may also prove useless. In this "confused" state, who knows if the computer will have written anything meaningful to the log? Unfortunately for Toyota, finding it may require a technician to be under the hood running diagnostics while the vehicle is in that confused state racing down the highway out of control. Please see my post #1725.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    gagrice...the tests I've read about usually take place in harsh environments like the desert, or in the northern areas of Alaska.

    I don't think Hawaii would qualify as a "harsh testing" environment.... ;)
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited February 2010
    carbuff....I did some basic calculations in one of the posts. At 60 MPH, a car is traveling at 88 ft/sec. At WOT (or 120 MPH) you double that to 176 ft/sec. In Ms. Smith's case, even pressing the on/off button, and holding it for 3 secs, as Toyota stipulated to turn off the engine, she mentioned that the car was traveling at about 100 MPH. Rough numbers, that means she was going at least, about 100 ft/sec.

    So, that being the case, holding down the on/off button (if she knew she had to hold it down for 3 secs), she was traveling the length of a football field before she realized the on/off button wasn't working. All this, while she was trying to dodge other traffic.

    Brakes are going to fade pretty quickly at those speeds, and coincides with other witnesses stating that smoke and flames could be seen coming from the car.....the brakes had way overheated, and I'm sure became ineffective, very quickly. So, that debunks Toyota's statement that the brakes will always overcome acceleration.

    The real question here is, how did the car slow and eventually come to a stop (after miles of this harrowing experience. We don't know...well, because Toyota didn't want to know by getting the car into their labs and finding out what happened. I'm certain that Lexus didn't want to buy the car back from them, because Lexus wouldn't agree to do so (that costs Toyota money). What's even scarier, is this car is still on the road, being driven by someone who probably has no clue about its history. So, it could happen again....to someone else. That puts not only the driver's safety in question, but also anyone else who's on the same road, at the same time.

    Even at this juncture, I don't know if Lexus is trying to track the car down to get it into their labs to find out the root causes. Should be easy enough to find out by running the vin#, though.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Since that Lexus was repaired it may have had new throttle system installed???? I reviewed Sean Kane testimony he gave under oath to congress and found mention of Gilbert's preliminary findings, Does seem to have something to do with ETC?? But can not find Dave Gilbert's report anywhere???

    This is a question I have, and was not stated at hearing. Since vehicle has had no further problems it may have new system, or Mrs. Smith's bug was only a one time bug?? Updates, etc, are done all the time. I know at Ford, I got one, and was just told needed update - told
    was no big deal. No info on work order though??? Also had checked and Toyota work order where I complained about electrical and my minor incidents of increased engine acceleration were not on work service order either. I can't make any allegations because I am not sure why omissions of info and have no proof.

    I just have to be more viligent and insist complaints on work order, and make sure written documentation exist on final report. I accept blame myself, as I did not insist and was too lax. No excuse, considering all the professional CE continuing ed courses - documentation and law over the years.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Don't forget at hearing one congressman asked Lentz why Toyota never took each of the problem cars and tested them thoroughly. Since these cars had the problems those are ones that should be tested, not the ones that had no problems. This congressman said that should have been the first common sense approach???? I would have to check my notes who this congressman was.
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    Yes of course, weve all had computer freezes where Control alt delete or even holding in the off button seems to take much longer than 3 seconds or maybe even doesnt work at all , but lets take it a step further. and please anyone feel free to correct me on this as I have no computer/auto technical/computer control system expertise whatsoever.
    I dont think that my computer has ever kept working after Ive pulled the plug out of the wall. How exactly can that be accomplished (mechanically, bypassing all computer controll) in a vehicle?
    Some have suggested a fuel cut off /limiter and it seems to me to be reasonable to think that if you did that , the vehichle would have to stop. Others have suggested some sort of mechanical cut to an electrical wire/battery cable/alternator wire or possibly even an instant drain on the oil pan. As I said, Im a technical neophyte, and electronic engineer /computer wizards may just dismiss these ideas as so 1970s.
    Its true that the expertise of some of the posters here like ww, graphic, sharon yourself and many others are phenominal and all add to the general pool of information that Toyotas total lack of leadership has failed to provide. I think, however that finding a suitable mechanical solution is just as valid an approach and will present a suitable solution that at least gives Toyota owners peice of mind, decades before Toyota ever mans up.
    Comments please.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..same time that the driver taps the brake..."

    Hmmm..

    On rare occasions, well past occasions, I have noted that my headlights would often dim as I applied the brakes. I always assumed that was the result of the sudden instant load of the rear brake lights on the 12 volt system.

    But.....maybe not.

    All of these new cars have an Anti-lock Braking System and that means they have an ABS pumpmotor. I know for a fact that when I "tap" the brakes on my '92 LS400 the ABS ECU checked the pumpmotor manifold's reserve brake fluid pressure and if it is not up to a predetermined level it starts the pumpmotor almost simultaneously with the brake "tap".

    That ABS pumpmotor is, can be, one hell of a load on the car's battery and charging system, the pumpmotor's startup SURGE current would undoubtedly result in a HUGE downward spike in the 12 volt supply system.

    I have experienced instances with my '01 Porsche wherein the ABS system seemed to go wacko with a marginal battery. While still able to crank and start the engine did so only slowly. The ABS fault light would come on shortly after starting the engine. New battery and the symptom went away.

    Another thing that I mentioned earlier was the probable EMI spike to the 12 volt system at WOT when the A/C compressor's electromagnetic clutch circuit is opened.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    You may have noticed that even if your PC remains unplugged for a long period of time it still retains the correct date and time of day information. Not so noticeable is taht it also retains ALL of the setup information that can be modified by the user. That is done by incorporating a small wristwatch style/type "button" battery on the motherboard, generally good for 10 years or more.

    In your car the information kept in "volatile" memory, memory that must be kept powered if the information is to be retained, is continuously powered by the car battery even with the ignition switched off.

    Unplug your car's battery for a long enough period and these "learned" parameters will be lost and must be relearned over a fairly short period of driving.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..design flaw that other manufacturers did not miss..."

    IMMHO it is much more likely that Toyota/etc's firmware supplier, Denso, has incorporated a new feature, firmware feature, at Toyota/etc's request, that has not yet been migrated, adopted, by other asian, along with a few US marques, using Denso as a prime supplier.

    The fairly recent firmware integration of the TC, VSC, BA, EBD, etc, functions comes immediately to mind. And one of the more recent "features" added by Toyota/etc, FIRMWARE features, was the addition of the routine that "watches" the rate at when foot pressure is removed from the gas pedal in order to avoid a needless, and sometimes detrimental, transaxle upshift.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..that debunks Toyota statement...acceleration..."

    No, most braking systems will probably RESTRAIN the car from accelerating from a standstill or even from a reasonably low speed. Not trying to defend Toyota/etc by any means.

    "...how did the car slow...."

    Metal to metal rotor and brake pad's metal backing contact once frictional material burned away...?? It's also possible that the ATF became so overheated (boiled..??)that the transaxle's hydraulics began to fail.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    You should be aware that the "surface" cause for reflashing my not be the BASE cause. The dealer may not actually know, even for reflash causes seemingly fully disclosed, what "corrective" measures are incorporated into a reflash, industry "IP" secrets and all that.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Thanks for responding. Computer science. I do understand what you are saying about not getting you MBA. Going to night school and family are extremely difficult. You would be missing out on many
    of those special one time moments with your family.

    Yes, the "corporate veil"!!! Understand this quite well. Familiar with CA codes.

    One Question - You say P&G???? I mention PGE??? Here in California known as Pacific Gas and Electrical. Same??? Different in your area - different regional area?? I live in California.

    PGE sure made big mistake with their role in placing hired guns on this California Blue Ribbon Panel and their hired guns role publishing false scientific study on chromium. Of course panels findings thrown out finally, and journals retracted study. But the unethical integrity publicly on display was evidenced in court proceedings - & by PGE second lawsuit loss 2006 for chromium pollution in another area. Yes, corporate protection first!!! Wrong approach. But they march on.

    I can also definitely understand your comments about that type of culture. And your leaving. Just from family insider knowledge about corporations

    Toyota being secretive. Yes, it does appear they are very secretive. I think most of auto manufacturers are secretive, but have heard Toyota is more so. Whether true - not sure. I have lots of difficulty comprehending US Toyota does not have more control over US decisions. Differing cultural & legal systems come into play also. Corporate approach to UA/SUA??

    I am still upset they used Exponent to defend their electronics though. And for good proven past undesirable actions. I don't believe DHTSA can pay $1,0000,000+ to have another nonbiased firm analyze and report. DHTSA only has two electrical engineers plus small staff dedicated for defects & investigation issues is not large. I am not sure legally DHTSA can make Toyota turn over all their designs, firmware, etc. to conduct excellent independent nonbiased engineering tests.
    ???? Department has many other issues to address too. Answer to this????

    Toyota is not only auto manufacturer with problems of UA/SUA. The others had better clean their act up too. Toyota is taking heat because of San Diego accident deaths and UA/SUA events. Do they need to?? Yes. It was their vehicle and they have had problems. Is it fair??? Yes sadly. Once again it is their auto. If it would have been Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc it would be that manufacturer taking the heat. Sometimes officials are too complacent, and do not act as good watchdog agency for many diffferent reasons. And auto manufacturers don't behave is my personal guess. Hear too much -
    this excuse of proprietary information!!!

    Toyota reliability - seems manufacturers are catching up to Toyota. I strongly feel all autos in US should be required to have mandatory brake override. And those systems need standards imposed into regulations as well. Best system.

    There were questions at hearing about the black boxes (EDR)
    for autos. I was very disturbed no congressman or LaHood was aware there was already a panel that addressed this issue in past. And law was passed. Standards are set already. Implementation date too! I found this quite disturbing!!!! I think the date is September 1, 2011. And EDR's must be made publicly available. DHTSA will have then too.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    No - no tests I found at 100/mph. Claims it can be done. Documentation articles for lower speeds. Just am not sure a woman would have strength/force to do it.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Big question and lots of questions why Toyota did not take this car that had problems documented and attempot to produce ame event??? This was a vehicle that had fault occur. Why take an auto that has no problem and test??? Most good business mind approaches to problems would deduct this. Then legal issues come into play it seems/maybe!!! Lots more going on here it seems. This asked at hearing too by congressman. Lentz gingerly walked around question. Said he would try to get.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    "..why Toyota(/etc) do not take this car.."

    Much too great a potential for the public/press learning of the incident and thereby coming to the conclusion of a problem. Japanese culture does not readily allow for open admission of mistakes. On the other hand we cannot rule out the possibility of a problem that was already well known to Toyota/etc but wished to keep it secret, well hidden from the public eye.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Seems was both Toyota and DHTSA. Was Bush administration appointees then. DHTSA now has Obama appointees in upper management slots. Then you throw in the two prior DHTSA employees who left and joined Toyota representing them at DHTSA. I was not happy to see where they threw out all high speed events!!!! Doing so made complaints look like minor issue. Deaths from high speed discarded and eliminated. ll long duration and high speed gone. Appeared to possibly affect all future investigations in the futre over multiple years.

    Now at hearing congressmen kept saying to Toyota 70% of UA/SUA events ae not dealt with through recalls. Guess we wait to see if they are finally addressed properly. See if all manufacturers have to address too??
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Sharon.....too many regional acronyms.... :shades:

    P&G=Proctor & Gamble
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Corporate liability and cultural issues - seems both and probably more too! This would definitely/undeniably be the first good management common sense approach. Test the known problem car!! This could produce the UA/SUA answers!!!
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Proctor and Gamble. Now we were talking about two different corporations!! Quite familiar with P&G. Loved them. But PGE - I am disturbed at theirs unethical action. I can imagine what you were thinking if you thought I was attacking P&G.

    Thanks for clarifying.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Mrs. Smith said in testimony her car decided on it own to decrease speed, but was still at higher acceleration when she stopped, but not racing like it was six miles earlier. She indicated - erratic up & down a little at end. Just turned off once stopped per her testimony. Then when attempting to load on AAA truck flatbed - husband shifted to neutral for vehicle loading & vehicle attempted to restart itself. AAA witnesed this.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I understand what you are saying. Thanks.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Didn't she say the cruise control light came on about the same time the car started accelerating...??

    Makes me wonder if the cruise control knob/lever, or the CC "firmware", somehow got stuck in the set/accelerate position.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Wow...

    The 2010 ES350's ABS pumpmotor/manifold assembly has 2 fuses, a 50 amp fuse and a 30 amp fuse. My guess would be that the 50 amp serves the pumpmotor and the 30 amp the various solenoids involved. That might mean as must as 100 amp" short term surge current each time you "tap" the brakes.

    And the A/C compressor clutch is served by a 10 amp fuse but with absolutely NO EMI/RFI supression around/for the electromagnetic clutch coil. Probably one HUGE spark, HIGH voltage spark (25,000 volts..??) across the clutch relay contacts as they open when WOT is used.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    There is one road on the Big Island that the rent a car companies will not let you drive on. It's an old road stretching across the island and if you ever make it to the Big Island I highly recommend the trip as I use to drive it couple of times a year on an Army contract. It's called Saddle Road.

    Saddle Road

    http://www.saddleroad.com/
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    A description was given in CHP report of brakes SanDiego accident. Seemed like they were totally ruined from excessive attempts to brake. Since this was a dealership loaner brakes should have been good shape when loaned. Loaner vehicle probably had low mileage as well.

    Toyota dealership had indeed placed incorrect floormat in car.

    I have a copy saved in my files, but because of privacy can not send. Anyone else have??
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I forget if she did. Just reviewed my notes - not there either. If she did I missed it. Checked both Mr. & Mrs. testimony notes I took.
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