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Comments
The long view is that the fixes will be made, new pedals will be installed and production/sales will resume.
Unfortunately, you are correct! However, that doesn't fix the problem that Toyota has tried to deny for over 5 years and denies there is a problem. So what is really causing the problem in Toyota vehicles remains to be seen.
As someone else had already referenced:
"My biggest concern is that most of the credible reports describe the incident in a way that cannot be explained by a stuck pedal. "I tapped the brake and the car took off", "I did not press down on the gas pedal", "I know my foot had hit the brake and not the gas". Since the cars computer has exclusive control over the throttle position at all times no matter what the driver does, this sounds more like a problem in the electronics. If a bug in the computer has it in la-la land, it may not be accepting any inputs from pedals or switches or anything to change the throttle. "
Until there is a proven problem, and proven to be Toyota's responsibility, I don't see that our goverment could force anything. Our government asked Toyota to with hold the products from the market and as I see it Toyota "voluntarily" agreed.
It is/was not, clearly not, Toyota's responsibility to be certain floor mats were being properly installed or used. They suppy floor mats with the holes for the retraining hooks and the hooks. We all should know that if the optional factory floor mats are shipped with the vehicle they are installed during dealer prep.
Insofar as I am concerned no one can say, definitively, that the sticking accelerator pedal is the primary causative factor in these run-a-way vehicle incidents. It just doesn't pass the "smell" test.
No trying to side with Toyota, just applying logic.
No.
Until the firmware source code is revealed (FAT CHANCE..!!) and analyzed by someone of appropriate knowledge there can be no balanced and knowledgeable independent explanation.
Until recently, Toyota was not a competitor of ' Government Motors', the #1 vehicle sales corporation in the USA.
I also see it as putting the wrong floor mat or 1 floor mat on top of another not to be an acceptable reason to have a vehicle to be unsafe to operate.
Are correcting those 2 issues the final solution? TBD.
Must not have slapped them down very hard. Yup. toyota sure shut up the TIMES.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-pedal30-2010jan30,0,4401302.story?t- rack=rss
Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect
Federal vehicle safety records reviewed by The Times also cast doubt on Toyota's claims that sticky gas pedals were a significant factor in the growing reports of runaway vehicles. Of more than 2,000 motorist complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the last decade, just 5% blamed a sticking gas pedal, the analysis found.
What's more, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has conducted eight investigations into sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles over the last seven years, none of which identified a sticking pedal as a potential cause.
"The way the sudden-acceleration problems are occurring in reported incidents doesn't comport with how this sticky pedal is described," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. "We know this recall is a red herring."
Sudden-acceleration events in Toyota and Lexus vehicles have been blamed for at least 19 fatalities and 815 vehicle crashes since 1999.
Toyota last fall blamed the episodes on floor mats that entrapped the gas pedals, leading to a massive recall. Then last week Toyota said sticking gas pedals were also causing sudden acceleration by not springing back into idle position, triggering another recall.
On Tuesday, the automaker stopped sales and production of eight models until it could remedy the problem.
Independent auto safety experts have been skeptical of Toyota's explanations, saying floor mats and sticky gas pedals can't fully explain the large number of complaints that have been mounting for the last decade, covering some of the most popular models in the company's lineup, including the Camry.
That argument was given more weight Friday when the manufacturer of the suspect pedals insisted its products had been unfairly blamed.
CTS Corp. of Elkhart, Ind., said in a statement that it had "deep concern that there is widespread confusion and incorrect information" about its products linked to the sudden-acceleration issue.
"The problem of sudden unintended acceleration has been reported to have existed in some Lexus vehicles and Toyota vehicles going back to 1999, when CTS did not even make this product for any customer," the company said.
Toyota began using CTS-made pedals in the 2005 model year.
On Jan. 21, Toyota told federal regulators that CTS pedals were susceptible to moisture and could stick, forcing the recall of 2.3 million cars and trucks. CTS acknowledged that a tiny number of pedals had a rare condition that could cause a slow return to idle position, but it denied that this condition could cause unintended acceleration and said that it knew of no accidents or injuries caused by the issue.
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said the company had no comment on CTS' statement.
Another Toyota spokesman, Mike Michels, said in an e-mail that the company had identified the pedal problem as "abnormal friction in the pedal pivot mechanism" and that the automaker hoped to announce a remedy soon.
Toyota has honored CTS three times since 2005 for the quality and efficiency of its work, citing the fact that the supplier "exceeded quality expectations" and achieved "100 percent on-time delivery and for shipping accelerator pedal modules with zero defects."
The automaker also uses pedals supplied by Denso Corp., a Japanese company with North American headquarters in suburban Detroit, but has said those do not appear to be defective.
However, the Times review of federal safety records shows several instances of complaints of stuck pedals on vehicles built in Japan, which Toyota has said are not subject to the recall. For example, one complaint, filed two years ago, told of a 2007 Japanese-built Camry in Maryland with a pedal that "stuck to the floor."
A wide group of national automotive experts say there is strong evidence that a hidden electronic problem must account for at least some, if not most, of the Toyota sudden-acceleration events.
The 19 sudden-acceleration deaths involving Toyota vehicles are more than those that have occurred in vehicles from all other automakers combined, according to figures provided to The Times by NHTSA.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
what have you read that leads you that conclusion?
A Department of Transportation official confirmed that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration did not object to Toyota's repair plans. Technically NHTSA's approval is not required, but Toyota would be reluctant to proceed if the government raised objections."
Feds approve Toyota gas pedal remedy (MSNBC)
Toyota Gas Pedal Fix Clears Regulators (Wall St. Journal version)
Nevertheless, Toyota spokesman Mike Michels is reported saying that the company's decision to stop selling the recalled vehicles was voluntary, but that they also had a legal requirement to do so.
Toyota was legally required to stop selling recalled models
How do you voluntary do something that you're obligated to do?
Toyota also closely guards the Event Data Recorder information. So no outside entity can determine what happened before an accident. There is still the Smoking Gun delivered to the dealer with WOT. And the driver says the pedal WAS NOT DEPRESSED with the car at full throttle. That does not sound like a pedal problem. Something beyond the throttle pedal was keeping the car at WOT.
Why doesn't the NHTSA force Toyota to reveal the firmware for outside review? Why do they allow them to hide the information in the EDR? The 2008 Avalon that ended upside down in a pond killing 4 people was NOT floor mat related. Was it a sticking pedal? Where is the EDR data from that December 26th tragedy? 2100 accidents attributed to SUA is significant.
The LA Times was not intimidated by the Toyota response last year.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fg-japan-toyota29-2010jan29,0,3951770.story
The reverberations continued Friday as Toyota announced that a European recall could include up to 1.8 million cars, pushing the global total to 9 million, or nearly as many vehicles as were sold in the U.S. last year.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota30-2010jan30,0,5882035.story
By MICHELINE MAYNARD
Published: January 30, 2010
DETROIT — Toyota Motor has come up with a remedy to fix the millions of cars it recalled because their accelerator pedals could become stuck, federal officials and dealers said Saturday.
Word of the remedy came as the French automaker Peugeot said it was recalling cars it builds with Toyota at a plant the companies operate together in the Czech Republic, widening a recall that has already affected cars in the United States, Canada, China and throughout Europe.
Toyota presented a plan for repairing the potentially sticky pedals to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a senior official at the Transportation Department said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity.
The safety agency is not required to approve remedies but can reject them if it thinks they will not sufficiently address defects. The agency did not reject the remedy, the Transportation official said.
Toyota officials phoned dealers Saturday to say that a remedy was ready.
“We got the call this morning,” said Peter Blackstock, the owner of Victory Toyota and Lexus Monterey Peninsula in Seaside, Calif. “The parts are on their way.”
A Toyota spokesman, Mike Michels, said the company planned an announcement next week and would send letters to owners, but he cautioned it could take several weeks for notices to arrive. Toyota wants owners to wait for the letters before they take their cars to dealerships for repairs, he said.
Mr. Blackstock said he expected that dealers would be sent replacement accelerator pedals, which are produced for Toyota by CTS, a parts supplier based in Elkhart, Ind.
Separately on Saturday, the traffic safety agency said it had opened an investigation into the manufacture of the accelerator pedals.
Last week, Toyota said it would temporary stop production and sales of eight models — as well as sales of the Pontiac Vibe, which Toyota makes on behalf of General Motors — at plants throughout the United States and Canada. The plants are scheduled to be closed for a week beginning on Monday.
Toyota did not stop production or sales at plants in Europe because it said it had already devised and implemented a remedy there.
The recall for accelerator pedals involves 4.1 million cars in the United States, Europe and elsewhere. Toyota has also recalled another 5.4 million cars in the United States whose accelerator pedals could get stuck on floor mats. Worldwide, the recalls affect more than 9.5 million vehicles.
The recalls have given a black eye to Toyota, which grew to become the world’s largest automaker, and the second largest in the United States, based on a reputation for building high-quality vehicles.
On Friday, Toyota’s chief executive, Akio Toyoda, apologized for the problem but said consumers should feel confident driving the company’s cars.
Toyota’s competitors have tried to capitalize on the company’s troubles by offering trade-in deals to Toyota owners. But it is still unclear what effect the recalls might have on Toyota’s sales in the United States.
Edmunds.com, a Web site that provides car-buying advice, forecast that Toyota’s market share for January would fall to a four-year low. But AutoTrader.com, which tracks consumers’ shopping habits, said consideration of Toyota brands had actually risen over the last few days.
Mr. Blackstock, the California dealer, said he hoped repairs could be completed quickly. He said he did not think the recalls would have a lasting effect on his business, or that of Toyota.
“If this is the worst thing that happens to us this year, it should be a pretty good year,” Mr. Blackstock said.
Life goes on. Fixes will be installed, new pedals will be installed and sales will go on. The long view.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Now two major recalls and Tuesday's decision to suspend making and selling eight models because of a safety issue put Toyota's gains at risk.
How well the Japanese automaker responds may determine whether it can avoid the inexorable trends that eventually sent former industry leader General Motors Corp. into bankruptcy last year -- an aging customer base and a seeming inability to tackle quality issues squarely.
Unless it can quickly identify and come up with a fix for the occasional but sometimes deadly acceleration problems that have plagued its vehicle line, there will be more formerly loyal customers, such as John Whiffen of Malibu, who will flee to other brands.
Whiffen, a longtime Toyota fan who prized the vehicles for their feeling of safety, began having sudden-acceleration problems last spring with one of the two Highlander sport utility vehicles in the family, which also owns a Lexus.
But his dealer downplayed the first three incidents, and Whiffen continued driving it until a fourth incident in August sent his SUV into a wall, causing $12,000 in damage.
This week, nearly six months later, he said, the dealer's service department called to tell him the vehicle had no problems and checked out fine. For Whiffen, a retired orthopedic surgeon, it was the last straw.
"I thought Toyota was a very good company and built good products," Whiffen said. "Now I wouldn't even consider buying a Toyota in the future. This whole event tells me that they don't value my life, and that means I should never buy another car from them."
Or are those accusations just something made up? Stick around to the end of our show and you'll see if these are true or did we just try and shim them in on you while your weren't looking.
Sorry, couldn't resist the "Fact or Fiction" allegory. Thought I was watching that show for a second.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
If Toyota replaced my very smooth CTS accelerator pedal assembly tomorrow, I'm not sure I would feel any safer!
And by the way, I ignored the Toyota letter about removing the floor mats in my 2007 Avalon. There is no way that my properly anchored, factory carpet, mats are ever going to cause a problem with the accelerator pedal.
I see these technicians with all automakers as Laptop jockeys. If they cannot find an error code when they plug in and do an analysis, all is OK. And if they do it is change a module and put the car on the road. What happens when there is a failure that does not show up? Like a mechanical part that wears out? Do these cars have sensors on every mechanical device to determine a fault? It seems all too often we read complaints from owners where the dealers just blame it on the consumer. For someone with 150k trouble free miles, it is not the vehicle's fault. Even here on Edmund's we have gotten people coming in frustrated with a vehicle and the proponents of that brand will castigate the poster to where they just leave. So we never find out the outcome of their problem. Much of this is coming to a head with Toyota.
The public that now has strong anti-Toyota sentiments now like several herein will have those sentiments reinforced and still will never set foot in a Toyota store.
The bulk of the population that has little or no direct interest in these issues on a daily basis because it doesn't involve them will continue to have little or no interest and soon will forget about it. People still buy Fords and Ford is the current darling despite killing people all over the country with Exploders back only 10 yrs ago.
The public that is loyal to Toyota and is having no issues will cut them some slack for one very good reason...we're all self-centered. We think about ourselves first and foremost. If drivers are not being incovenienced and have no issues at all with their vehicles then they're not likely to budge.
Some current owners definitely will move on to new pastures. These might be considered 'grazers' since they move from maker to maker trying new opportunities.
But as reported in most articless as well as by the NHTSA, by CTS and by Toyota the very very isolated incidences are very unlikely to impact any meaningful group of potential 'intenders' as Edmunds calls them. We being self-centered at heart look to our own experiences first and while the FLASH BANG is intense right now the long view is..... well you know what that is. But it's fun for the first group.
From the late 60's there was a famous poster in a lot of college dorm rooms.
What if They Gave a War ( recall ) and No One Came?
maybe all the pedals in question around the world were manufactured according to the specs? :surprise:
'White Rabbit', Jefferson Airplane, Surrealistic Pillow 1967
Like the wings on the Dreamliner right?
I bet if we randomly checked the gas pedals on many cars made in the past five years lots of them would have plastic gas pedals.
Plastic does not equal cheap.
my first album
I think he's just a disgruntled and disappointed Toyota owner. One of the many out there right now. Just a little more enthused with his posting.
It seems that ONLY the 100% Japanese built Toyotas are NOT affected by the recall. This tells me that the only vehicles which are affected are the ones which are built in the U.S. and Canada. Could it be that the quality control and the material and parts that are used to build all U.S. and Canadian Toyotas are VERY LOW QUALITY? That's what it looks like to me. :lemon:
Almost 2 million in Europe. But the blame has been placed on one of the two suppliers of the gas pedal - a US supplier.
Toyota Pedal Recall Update #11: Toyota Europe Recalling up to 1.8 Million (Inside Line)
Matt McKay, owner of the All Star Automotive Group, said Costanza explained to Valviva on three separate occasions on Saturday that the dealership could not refund his money for the truck.
Valviva refused the offers and tried to leave the dealership, but his gas pedal stuck, Lee said. The truck accelerated forward, striking the building, Lee said.
McKay said he had “no comment” when asked if he believed the incident was accidental."
Man’s truck strikes BR Toyota dealership (The Advocate)
"Why we've temporarily stopped some of our plants: As you may have heard, in rare cases, sticking accelerator pedals have occurred in some of our vehicles. We believe we are close to announcing an effective remedy. And we're temporary halted production at some of our North American plants to focus on vehicles we've recalled. Why have we taken this unprecedented action? Because its the right thing to do for our customers. To find out if your Toyota is affected and to get the very latest information about the recall, please visit: toyota.com"
Now the article should have read:
"Why we've temporarily stopped some of our plants: As you have heard, and seen the unfortunate deaths and injuries, sticking accelerator pedals have occurred in our vehicles. However, as of today, we still do not know the real cause of injuries and deaths as a result of our run away cars where the pedals were not even involved. We are announcing a patch for the pedal problem to clear Toyota's name in the media, but again, the pedal problem has only been observed in rare cases. And by law, we were required to halt sales for over 65% of our vehicles in North American. As for our so called "bandaid to be applied to the pedals" we are more concerned with getting our factories up and running first as it is the right thing to do, than to help our existing customers, which is why we initially decided to send the pedals solely to the factories and told the dealers you will just have to wait. Why have we taken this unprecedented action? Because its the law. Is this issue new? Of course not, we have known about the sudden acceleration problem for over 5 years. To find out if your Toyota is affected and to get the very latest information about the recall, please visit: toyota.com" and try to find the tiny link squeezed into the bottom of the screen which we hope you don't see.
Jeeeez, another failed attempt by Toyota for trying to down play the severity of a safety issue with still no explanation of why the sudden accelerations are still occurring evening when the pedals are not involved? How many more deaths and injuries are going to have to occur before this is addressed???? :sick:
With Toyota it goes across their vehicle spectrum. It may be floor mats or it may be defective throttle device or it may be something in firmware. If they remove the floor mat threat and shim the throttle device and have anymore claims of SUA, the can of worms gets opened up again. Add people that may use this to get rid of a vehicle they do not want. It is much bigger than the Firestone/Explorer recall. And much more publicized with media scrambling to get readers and viewers.
If their repair is actually shimming the spring within the accelerator to increase the return force (and make the pedal harder to push) is going to be laughable after they pretended to voluntarily shut down their factories (snce they can't legally sell the cars) so they could come up with replacement mechanisms.
I don't anyone rational is buying the CTS company's being at fault. It worked for Ford blaming Firestone as well but only hadd traction for me because of Firestone's having used a single belt layer instead of two in the tread. The tire was more susceptible to deterioration with low air pressure recommended by Ford and allowed to go lower by customers in the rear.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sadly you have to get people killed to get attention from the manufacturers. In this case Dunlop.
Wieckowski told troopers he was the only one who drove the truck and it had never had mechanical problems previously.
But in an interview contained in the report, Wieckowski told troopers the truck began to move side-to-side on the snow and ice-covered roads.
“I immediately started braking little by little when I saw my truck going to the left,” he told troopers in the interview. “I shouted, ‘God, no — no accident please!’”
An initial report released Jan. 21. shows troopers said Wieckowski was going too fast for road conditions when he lost control of the truck just south of the Plattsburg Road overpass on I-70.
However, in the interview, Wieckowski told troopers he was driving between 40 and 45 miles per hour prior to the crash. He told troopers the truck did have cruise control, but he was not using it when the crash occurred.
The truck crashed into a shuttle bus from the Creative Learning Workshop, which was carrying adults with developmental disabilities to their residence at Vienna Meadows on East National Road. Well, about one thing, but not what they want us to think.
Some have said people would start using unexplained acceleration as an excuse for accidents they caused and implied people already had done that with UA events already documented on NHSTA, e.g.
A Chicago trucker at fault for accident in Springfield, OH on Interstate 70 blames the engine speeding up for his going too fast on several inches of snow and hitting a mini-school bus with several mentally or physically challenged adults returning to their group car home from their work location. Approximately 5 died.
The trucker claimed he was only going 40 mph. IF that were true, he would have been the only trucker below the 65 mph speed limit that day, or at least below 55.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/driver-in-fatal-special-needs-van-crash-says- - -truck-sped-up-by-itself-520909.html
In a report released by the Ohio State Highway Patrol, Zygmunt W. Wieckowski, 54, of Chicago, told troopers that he took his foot off the accelerator before the fatal crash on Jan. 7 but he could still hear the engine speeding up.
Wieckowski told troopers he was the only one who drove the truck and it had never had mechanical problems previously.
But in an interview contained in the report, Wieckowski told troopers the truck began to move side-to-side on the snow and ice-covered roads.
“I immediately started braking little by little when I saw my truck going to the left,” he told troopers in the interview. “I shouted, ‘God, no — no accident please!’”
An initial report released Jan. 21. shows troopers said Wieckowski was going too fast for road conditions when he lost control of the truck just south of the Plattsburg Road overpass on I-70.
However, in the interview, Wieckowski told troopers he was driving between 40 and 45 miles per hour prior to the crash. He told troopers the truck did have cruise control, but he was not using it when the crash occurred.
The truck crashed into a shuttle bus from the Creative Learning Workshop, which was carrying adults with developmental disabilities to their residence at Vienna Meadows on East National Road.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is the gas pedal the real problem ?
Associated Press Writers
WASHINGTON — For a century, the basic idea behind pressing the accelerator on a car has been pretty straightforward. What's going wrong with some Toyotas isn't simple.
Experts say the sudden acceleration problem that has put the brakes on Toyota sales and production is likely not a single problem but an alignment of complicated, interconnected conditions.
Nothing illustrates that more than the contradictory statements from the two companies involved. Toyota Motor Corp. is telling the government that it thinks a friction problem in its accelerator pedal mechanisms may make the pedal "harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position."
CTS Corp., the Indiana-based supplier that makes the devices for Toyota, said in a statement Wednesday that the friction problem accounts for fewer than a dozen cases of stuck accelerators, "and in no instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially depressed condition."
If there were a simple answer, a one-thing-gone-wrong glitch with a fix, it's unlikely Toyota would be in the mess it's now in.
Recent article in the LA Times.
By Ralph Vartabedian and Ken Bensinger LOS ANGELES TIMES 1/30/10
The pedal maker denies that its products are at fault. Some independent safety experts also are skeptical of Toyota's explanations. 'We know this recall is a red herring,' one says.
Toyota Motor Corp.'s decision to blame its widening sudden-acceleration problem on a gas pedal defect came under attack Friday, with the pedal manufacturer flatly denying that its products were at fault.
Federal vehicle safety records reviewed by The Times also cast doubt on Toyota's claims that sticky gas pedals were a significant factor in the growing reports of runaway vehicles. Of more than 2,000 motorist complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the last decade, just 5% blamed a sticking gas pedal, the analysis found.
What's more, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has conducted eight investigations into sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles over the last seven years, none of which identified a sticking pedal as a potential cause.
Independent auto safety experts have been skeptical of Toyota's explanations, saying floor mats and sticky gas pedals can't fully explain the large number of complaints that have been mounting for the last decade, covering some of the most popular models in the company's lineup, including the Camry.
That argument was given more weight Friday when the manufacturer of the suspect pedals insisted its products had been unfairly blamed.
CTS Corp. of Elkhart, Ind., said in a statement that it had "deep concern that there is widespread confusion and incorrect information" about its products linked to the sudden-acceleration issue.
"The problem of sudden unintended acceleration has been reported to have existed in some Lexus vehicles and Toyota vehicles going back to 1999, when CTS did not even make this product for any customer," the company said.
Toyota began using CTS-made pedals in the 2005 model year.
If an owner is involved in either of the two recalls then the brake override function will be added to that vehicle. New models are getting it installed in the factories.
I do think that the current "unintended acceleration" problem is somehow tied to the Toyota software, and maybe will finally be corrected with a software change, but we as owners, will never know the exact scope of the fix.
More like we as owners, will never know the exact scope of the true underlining problem.
The new models getting that software won't get it until start of next year production.
The "fix" involves a spacer being installed in the existing pedal.
I have one ready to be delivered which was assembled in Jan sitting on the dealers lot. I was supposed to pick it up Jan 30 but the recall stopped delivery.