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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, the brilliant minds of those Stanford PHD's who work for Exponent, Director of Stanford University auto technology research department engineers against Dr. Gilbert the professor of auto technology department for auto techs from University of Southern Illinois will be interesting.

    Stanford's Center for Automotive Research is funded by a group of auto companies, including Toyota. Slight problem does exist since research funded by auto manufacturers, but Standford is one of the top universities in Nation. Stanford will be a big defense for Toyota though. Exponent has multiple Stanford grads so not just a coincidence here.

    Must watch this presentation. Will be interesting to see if they release any written study finding reports???
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    jdm, good for you!!!
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    How does a company like Exponent that has earned such a reputation continue to do business? If a company has no credibility it serves no purpose to use them.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    edited March 2010
    Fact: NHTSA determined defects in Toyota vehicles resulted in injury and death.
    Fact: Toyota admitted there was a defect and initiated recall to repair vehicles.
    Fact: Driver error is the identified cause in some vehicles. Past, present, and no reason to expect them not to occur in the future when there is a brake and accelerator pedal present.

    tomjavaBy using the data above, I can conclude that VW has twice as many complaints about unintended acceleration than Toyota in 2009. Toyota's getting crucified for something that isn't particularly uncommon or unusual.

    That is your opinion Tom. I do not agree with your conclusion. NHTSA has not identified any defects in VW's leading to unintended acceleration. VW is not recalling vehicles for unintended acceleration. No evidence to conclude there is a problem with VW's.

    Audi was crucified by the media in the 80's. Cause was identified as "pedal placement error", not a mechanical defect. Fault being operator error or pedal design may be argued without agreement.

    Attempt to shift blame to VW or make VW a scapegoat for Toyota's acknowledged defects will not be allowed to go unchallenged.

    Toyota failed to include a fail-safe in their accelerator/brake design and is in process of adding the feature. Fail-safe feature is present in current VW's and all past VW's with drive-by-wire throttle systems.

    VW utilizes a bottom hinged accelerator pedal design that prevents floor mat pedal entrapment, Toyota does not.

    Toyota is the manufacturer with the known problem, don't try to scapegoat another manufacturer.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Exponent is very good defense firm. Look them up. They have some brilliant individuals working for them. Corporations with a vested interest to pursue or that are in trouble & need a defense will seek these types of firms. PGE chromium contamination here in California was exposed publicly by some dedicated, diligent individuals. Exponent & their former CEO Dennis Paustenbach, fraudulant scientific study. Etc. Took almost 10 years to do though. Tobacco companies needed these firms to protect their own interests despite the proven health issues from tobacco use. Etc. Business is good.

    This firm wins alot, has lost some.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Thanks for the heads up on the article. Smile - after all that - we wait to see if Biller's documents ever mentioned again. Chairman's Town's letter to Toyota sure indicated problems. Now maybe - a whoops.
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    Is this the Exponent forum or what? Please give it a rest. You've repeated these same bashings over and over. If I hear about PGE chromium one time I think I will go UA. :(
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think there has been more negative postings on Kane and his group on the side of the Consumer. Toyota is trying to counter that with their sleazy choice of defense. I have always considered a good offense the best defense. If Toyota would get their engineering act together on their failing DBW systems, there would be little need for Kane or Exponent.

    If all Toyota did was hire Stanford to discredit Dr. Gilbert, they will accomplish little or nothing. The complaints will continue until Toyota fixes the problems.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am so sorry you did not approve of me providing the "links" to the truth. That is the reason they were provided.

    We must be respectful of everyone's opinions.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,770
    >providing the "links" to the truth.

    I appreciate the links.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Thanks for responding. The one author David Michaels is the guy who heads OSHA.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Richmond VAMember Posts: 177
    I can't handle the truth.

    I'll wait on the facts.

    I am, speaking of facts, getting 21.8 mpg on my new Highlander Limited. The 1700 miles on it have been mostly rural Interstate cruising at 75 and working to get around the packs of tractor trailers clogging the rolling hills and mountains.

    I wonder what I'd get if I'd slow down?

  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    21.8 mpg is suppose to be good? My Denali averages 10.9 with spirited driving, vette hits around 14 same with the Titan. Come to think about it all three are V8s.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    You could have gotten a BMW X5 diesel and be getting 30 MPG without the fear of SUA. BMW is one of many companies that has engineered and tested their DBW before selling it to the public. And the X5 will blow that Highlander into the weeds.

    Toyota should have won the Olympic Gold for the Downhill. They are going downhill faster than any automaker in history.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I have a 2005 Jeep Liberty Limited CRD (turbodiesel) 4X4. I live in the metro Washington DC area and going back and forth to work I average 23 MPG. On long interstate trips, 28 - 31 MPG.

    My Liberty has the aerodynamics of a brick and weighs in at over 4300 lbs. The engine is a 2.8L four cylinder turbodiesel that makes 295 lb-ft of torque. The same engine with the updated piezo injection makes 340 lb-ft of torque. Recently I saw a 2006 CRD for sale that had been modified and makes 395 lb-ft of torque and still gets over 26 MPG on the road.

    If you slowed down, you might get 23 MPG. If you traded it in for a diesel, you would definitely get better fuel economy and no unintended acceleration problems and brakes that work too.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    If you don't want to read someone's post, please use your down arrow and go to the next one.
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    I have moved on to the next post in her case at least a half dozen times before. She has chosen this forum as a band stand to show her dislike of Exponent. If you don't believe me go back and read them, I have. I just thought it was time to point out she has made her point about Exponent and it was time to move on. I have no stake in Exponent and appreciate her pointing out their ways. Enough is enough, this is about Toyota, and she's wasting our time with the repeated Exponent bash here. Find another forum.
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    I prefer to hear what they have to say before making a judgment on this.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    March 8th 2010, Toyota still not interested in finding their problem. Only discrediting anyone that gets in their path of deception.

    Toyota disputes critic who blames electronics

    (AP) – 1 hour ago
    The automaker will host a Webcast event Monday at 1 p.m. EST during which it will seek to debunk a critic who claims faulty gas pedals did not cause the sudden acceleration.

    The company is calling in the director of Stanford University's Center for Automotive Research to try to refute the claims. Toyota said Stanford professor Chris Gerdes will show that the malfunctions Gilbert produced "are completely unrealistic under real-world conditions and can easily be reproduced on a wide range of vehicles made by other manufacturers."

    Stanford's Center for Automotive Research is funded by a group of auto companies, including Toyota.

    The event planned Monday is part of a broad campaign by the world's biggest automaker to discredit critics, repair its damaged reputation and begin restoring trust in its vehicles.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Many here have asked why no expert witnesses from Toyota were questioned at the hearings. Sounds like it was Toyota not Congress holding back information and expert witnesses.

    The embattled automaker also faces a demand from unsatisfied House Democrats that it provide this week engineers or managers with "personal knowledge" of its efforts regarding unintended acceleration.

    The House Energy and Commerce Committee, in a letter to Toyota's U.S. sales chief, said that there is "an absence of documents" to show Toyota has thoroughly investigated whether electronics are causing unintended acceleration. The panel held a hearing about Toyota on Feb. 23. Toyota President Akio Toyoda told a different House committee Feb. 24 he is "absolutely confident" there is no electronics problem.

    Adding pressure, however, is that the government said Thursday that it has "more than 60" reports from Toyota owners about unintended acceleration in cars recalled and repaired by Toyota for what it says could cause the problem: 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. to fix gas pedals that could stick and 5.3 million over floor mats that might jam pedals.

    USA TODAY found at least 14 new acceleration complaints filed Friday and Saturday from owners who had already had their vehicles fixed under the recall.

    Will Toyota comply or try to pull a quick one by using hired guns to discredit other experts. Such as the lame attack on the ABC video report.
  • carlupicarlupi Member Posts: 52
    I would appreciate hearing from Avalon owners (specially 2008-2009) who have had the accelerator pedal and floor mat recall work performed.

    Has there been any noticeable difference in the feel or performance of the pedal, etc., after the work? Also, why are the 2010 Avalons not involved in the recall? Different pedal assembly or design?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,085
    gagrice.....just more of the same we've seen from Toyota. I kind of felt something was being hidden when Toyota had none of their engineering folks present at the Congressional hearings to either testify, or at least advise Lentz, Inaba, or Toyoda.

    Clearly, they don't want the truth to be known. And, Toyota is doing everything within their power to block, hide, hinder, dismiss and deny.
    2021 Acura TLX A-Spec-Platinum White Pearl
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaMember Posts: 8,211
    How do you expect anyone to get to the truth if you only hear one side of the argument?

    It is amazing to me to see so many people who feel that Toyota does not have the right to defend themselves !! This is the U.S.A., not a kangaroo court in some banana republic.

    Whether some of you here like it or not, you can expect a very strong and vigorous defense from Toyota. I am looking forward to hearing all the evidence from both sides before coming to any conclusions

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • jofallonjofallon Member Posts: 29
    It's hard to get both sides of the argument when one side keeps its expert witnesses in Japan. It's not very likely that Toyota's "defense" team at Stanford will get access to the source code for the onboard computers or data from the "black box" in the cars.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    It is amazing to me to see so many people who feel that Toyota does not have the right to defend themselves !!

    I have no problem with that. Why do you feel that the consumer should not have the right to sue Toyota when their cars experience UA? Why, when Toyota had a recall on floor mats 3 years ago, dealers are still putting them in cars that end up killing people. I am waiting to hear from the Lexus dealer that did just that. Was he warned by Lexus corporate? I cannot believe how many people are willing to give Toyota the benefit of the doubt and not the consumer.

    I think this says a lot:

    Toyota's culture faulted in recall crisis

    No Toyota executive in America was authorized to issue a recall. That included Jim Lentz, Toyota's top American sales executive, and his boss, Yoshi Inaba, who oversees North America.

    "Most of the information was one-way. ... back to Japan," Lentz testified before Congress in late February.

    Replied Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass.: "What you're saying is that, ultimately, the decisions are made in Japan?"

    An exodus of key American leaders from Toyota since 2006 may have been a sign of tensions that are just now coming to light amid the company's first serious crisis in more than 50 years of selling cars in the U.S., according to people familiar with the company.

    Press left in 2007 to take a top position with Chrysler. Another Toyota marketing leader, Jim Farley, left in 2007 for Ford, where he is now global marketing chief. Deborah Wahl Meyer, who headed the Lexus brand, left for Chrysler in 2007 and now is chief marketing officer for Pulte Homes.

    That is not to suggest that Toyota would have escaped the recent highly publicized recalls had those executives stayed. All left for attractive opportunities.

    Rapid expansion, strained engineering resources and a centralized corporate structure put stress on Toyota's admired and widely emulated corporate discipline.

    Engineers took on heavier workloads. Less priority was given to working closely with suppliers on quality.

    A growing dependence on the U.S. for profits and aggressive expansion, the latter of which resulted in the closure of Toyota's and GM's Fremont, Calif., joint venture and an empty assembly plant in Blue Springs, Miss.

    • A growing frustration among non-Japanese managers that they were underutilized and sometimes ignored by superiors in Japan. - ulted-in-recall-crisis

    All adds up to the current mess Toyota has gotten itself into.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    edited March 2010
    All the Exponent stuff has been interesting to me (and I suspect to a lot of other members who, like me, had never heard of them). And they are going to be instrumental in fashioning Toyota's position. I don't know how they would be any less topical to this discussion than Sean Kane's outfit or Dr. Gilbert's university.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    As big as Exponent seems to be. I had never heard of them either. I did some research and came to the conclusion they are they are the BIG DOGs used to win court cases. Nothing to do with fixing Toyota's UA.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,085
    houdini...conversely, it's hard to get at the truth when so much has been hidden, like unreadable "black boxes" (at least until recently), documents which may contain evidence of electrical/software problems that took a Congressional mandate to get hold of, repeated denials and lies from Toyota executives regarding their knowledge of the issues (just one example, the slide show Inaba says wasn't his stipulating Toyota's money savings by circumventing safety regs). On the very first slide, it shows that Inaba did indeed host the discussion about that very topic.

    It goes on and on.

    I have no problem in anyone mounting a defense, as long as both parties have access to the same, correct information. Not like it has been with Congress and even NHTSA having to arm wrestle Toyota to get such information.
    2021 Acura TLX A-Spec-Platinum White Pearl
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    EDR data is still "hidden". If you were to have an accident and had need of the EDR data you would not be able to obtain it.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Getting Gold was What Toyota was after in the Up hill when GM was at the Top,America was able to disqualify GM for its Employment of Americans and Toyota slipped in the back door to receive First place with Americans Laughing at GM,s loss. This win was at a greater cost than yet to be realize .The workers will loose at Toyota too. Toyota ownership will be a badge to remember on their cars.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am not an engineer, so hope some bright minds here on this blog may have some good insight.

    So far no responses from other news outlets seen. But is just completed. Expected.

    All is verbal though. No written documents provided that I have seen. Noticed only small number of reporters asked? or were present it seems??? Why?? Don't know??

    Here is CBS link.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Richmond VAMember Posts: 177
    "Many here have asked why no expert witnesses from Toyota were questioned at the hearings. "

    So you are saying that they did not appear for the 3/2 hearing?

    "Toyota officials face Senate commerce committee hearing ...Mar 1, 2010 ... Toyota's chief quality officer and a top engineer will testify before a Senate committee on Tuesday in the third congressional hearing on ..."

    Meanwhile the lynching goes on and usual suspects at Edmunds cheer loudly.

  • beachfish2beachfish2 Richmond VAMember Posts: 177
    "If you slowed down, you might get 23 MPG. If you traded it in for a diesel, you would definitely get better fuel economy and no unintended acceleration problems and brakes that work too."

    1. Yes, that's obvious.
    2. Diesel is too hard to find around here and it's worse out in the countryside.
    3. My '06 Avalon didn't have UA and my '10 Highlander doesn't either.

    And your Liberty rides like a brick in addition to looking like one. Thick as a brick comes to mind for some odd reason.

    I did have UA with a '67 Chevelle and a '75 Datsun B210, but they got fixed and life went on. My father told me Friday that he used to have one or two episodes a year of UA as far back as the '30s. He was born in 1922 and was a State Trooper and then a trucking company safety officer. He put 113,000 miles on a new '52 Chevy in 12 months and that was just one year. Cars break sooner or later if you drive much..
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..why no expert witnesses.."

    Until NipponDenso or Denso US engineers are brought forward there can be no expert testimony regarding the Toyota/etc electronics and UA.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Is this the link that you were trying to post?;ootw
  • nimiminimimi Member Posts: 249
    Yes, these articles are interesting. It's strange that what is so obvious to foreign observers seems to be hidden to us in the US. And it's not at all strange to see that the "big" US automakers, having lost out in the competitive marketplace, are now using their new-found political clout to try to eliminate competition by forcing them out of business!
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, it was. Thanks for helping here. I just came back. H-mmm just cut & pasted it - but didn't come through correctly it seems/

    Also from CBS - new report - while Toyota was doing webcast person in Prius has SUA/UA on freeway - calls 911 - CHP could only get vehicle to stop by getting in front of it and then applied brakes.

    Interesting when Toyota attempting to make claim this morning. I just go oh-oh!

    According to report CHP plan a news conference later. NOTE THIS HAPPENED IN SAN DIEGO. SAME CITY WHERE OFF DUTY CHP OFFICER AND FAMILY KILLED. WRONG CITY TO HAVE THIS HAPPEN. entMain;contentBody entMain;contentBody
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    My link that I put own regarding Toyota's webcast today was correctly past. CBS just had taken it down. Many thanks again for helping here.

    What do you think about that racing out of control Prius in San Diego that took 20 minutes to get stopped by that CHP officer's car?.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    edited March 2010
    What the guy from Stanford at the podium says about the premise of the "Dr. Gilbert test" is essentially what I was trying to say in post #2086 (which was in response to sharonkl's post #2076).

    The Gilbert test findings prove one thing, a gas pedal sensor can be modified to make the engine race. It just does not match the symptoms Toyota owners are experiencing based on NHTSA reports. I would be willing to bet that if during the Gilbert test with the engine racing, they had tried changing the shifter position to drive, neutral or reverse, that the ECM would have responded appropriately and shifted the transmission. In their test, the ECM was working as designed and just responding to the faulty input they were creating from the gas pedal.

    I realize that the point of that Toyota webcast is to discredit the Gilbert report, and in this case I happen to agree with Toyota. However what Toyota is not saying is that the problem the cars are experiencing is much more insidious than the Dr. Gilbert scenario.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    I think if I was gagrice I'd move out of San Diego.

    Ironic and timing was perfect since Toyota was in the process of making their own video version to deny any throttle problem. I'm anxious to see what the Toyota execs talked about. They testified they would have a nationwide SWAT team to investigate SUA.
  • carstrykecarstryke Member Posts: 168
    "I wonder what I'd get if I'd slow down?"

    you will never find out driving a toyota :P
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I thought they all seemed to be staying pretty "mum' through this investigation. GM did come out and make stupid statement, but haven't heard any other negative commets from oter manufactuers Maybe they just hope they are not the next one. News seemed to be making more an issue it could be a conspiracy, but I evaluated and that didn't seem logical conclusion that there was big push against Toyota. Too much to lose if Toyota fails on many points. All still seemed to point back to the horrible San Diego accident of CHP officer & family & their 911 call that was publicly released by CHP & became viral. The public outcry and the problems since. then. And this time it was a Toyota auto.

    Now today a Prius on freeway same city had out of control car- CHP stopped Prius. Can refer to my earlier post for link.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 25,770
    edited March 2010

    "The Highway Patrol responded. To get the runaway car to stop, they actually had to put their patrol car in front of the Prius and step on the brakes. The car eventually stopped near La Posta Bridge, but the whole even lasted for about 20 minutes."

    Toyota can't buy better advertising than this!!!!

    CBS report video on Prius runaway. toyota can't blame ABC for unbalanced, unfair reporting, now, can they?
    The Highway Patrols will have to give lessons on how to stop runaway toyotas.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTMember Posts: 15,976
    there seem to be 2 camps in this discussion, one says i'm ok, so there is no problem.
    the other side says there seem to be a lot of complaints and there is something wrong.
    hiring a legal firm to be the front line, doesn't seem to be the right move, from a 'person on the street' view.
    2020 Ford Explorer XLT, 2019 Lincoln MKZ Reserve 1
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    We may have to put on more cops with big rear bumpers to stop all the Toyotas with UA traveling the highways. Will be interesting to see how the T Cult spins this one.

    It was a pretty frightening Monday afternoon for a driver in San Diego. The California Highway Patrol said the driver of a Toyota Prius called 911 around 1:30 p.m. to say the car's accelerator was stuck and he couldn't slow it down.

    The caller was driving eastbound on Interstate 8 near San Diego as this was happening, reports CBS News correspondent Ben Tracy. At one point the car was traveling at 90 mph.

    The Highway Patrol responded. To get the runaway car to stop, they actually had to put their patrol car in front of the Prius and step on the brakes. The car eventually stopped near La Posta Bridge, but the whole even lasted for about 20 minutes.

    California Highway Patrol is planning a news conference to provide more details.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I do have news on now and reports are coming in out here about the Prius out of control today in San Diego. Seem to be showing Toyota's webcast today. Then show what happened couple hours later- Prius. I believe Toyota webcast was done in Torrence California. May be wrong. But if correct, these executives were only few hours away from Prius incident.

    CHP does say their car got in front of Prius and then applied his brakes - in most of news releases I bookmarked. But then when it came across TV on this one station - newsreporter stated driver stopped after CHP gave directions for him to pull emergency brake and keep applying pressure to brakes. News reporter said that stopped vehicle. But that explanation didn't sound quite correct???
    One report to at least 5 others saying CHP stopped.

    NOTE-one TV station San Diego claimed Toyota had dispatched tech to area to help.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think if I was gagrice I'd move out of San Diego.

    Worst part is they are everywhere. You just don't know when a Toyota will go berzerk and try and kill you. That incident was right past are little town and ended where we go to breakfast. La Posta Casino.
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