Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

carbuff1171 · March 2010

I see what you mean. Based on this event today, it's amazing just what lengths the US Automakers will go to:

Another Runaway Prius, March 8 in California

Maybe Toyota should start staging such events to occur to Chevys and Fords. We know that this can't happen to a Prius and that Rhonda Smith's Lexus testimony had to be a put-up-job since Toyota never recalled Prius or Lexus. In congress' relentless pursuit to put Toyota out of business, I just don't understand why they never asked Toyota why they weren't recalled.

imidazol97 · March 2010

>NOTE-one TV station San Diego claimed Toyota had dispatched tech to area to help.

Are these the techs we never heard from in the hearings in DC? So toyota found some?

sharonkl · March 2010

Gagrice - so you saw too. I don't think San Diego CHP were very happy to see this!! I am certain they are thinking back to the 911 call last August from one of their own CHP officers that resulted in his death and his family in a Toyota racing out of control too.

Since CHP is witness Toyota will have difficulty explaining this.

Do you know if Toyota got vehicle to repair??? This vehicle would be one NHTSA should get immediately prior to anyone attempting any work on car. I do wonder if this driver allowed Toyota to take his car??

Toyota webcast executives only INFER today electronics not the problem. Wouldn't make outright declaration no problem. Then this happens couple of hours later. Same town where all this started last August - San Diego.

sharonkl · March 2010

I think they are responding immediately because this Prius came right after their big Webcast with multiple reporters today to attempt to discredit Dr. Gilbert's study.

wwest · March 2010

"..I happen to agree with Toyota.."

Well I do not, adamantly so.

The MIL system monitor should have IMMEDIATELY detected that the two systems were shorted together. What's the purpose of have two sensors for redundancy if you cannot detect that one of them has FAILED...??

mnf · March 2010

Come on get a clue you have more of a chance of getting hit by a drunk driver or a crack head driving around high looking for a fix.

smarty666 · March 2010

not sure if anyone posted this but I was on motortrend today and saw this and thought I'd post it and get all your thoughts!!

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2010/112_1003_toyotas_intended_rebu- ttal/index.html

nippononly · March 2010

Same town where all this started last August - San Diego.

Heck, maybe it's a San Diego problem! :-P

carbuff1171 · March 2010

I agree that the detection failure is a problem and that is why I said that the Gilbert report was "valid". At the same time I am agreeing with Toyota when they say this is not what is occurring in the reported UA events.

For the driver reported incidents to be sensor-caused, the pedal would have to fail and that at the same time the shifter position sensor fail and that at the same time the ignition on/off button sensor fail (and in the Prius, the brake-depressed sensor fail) since during these UA events, none of these driver inputs respond. It's not just the gas pedal. I believe all these sensors are working fine and that the ECM is in a state where it fails to respond to them. I have tried to explain this before, and with the expertise I have seen in your posts, I would have expected you to reach this conclusion before I did.

gagrice · March 2010

you have more of a chance of getting hit by a drunk driver or a crack head driving around

You are right. So we don't need a bunch of Toyotas with UA adding to the mayhem on the highways. Toyota needs to spend their $billions looking for the anomalies in their DBW instead of more attorneys and damage control. Every day of denial by Toyota brings more damaging evidence to the surface. Unless the Auto gods are against them. Even I find the Prius incident today somewhat coincidental. Almost made for TV.

"Who has the most hair raising Toyota UA story to tell?"

sharonkl · March 2010

I just spoke with my son, and he thinks an issue exists too. He is too busy to even get into all the details. Since he has auto engineering experience, think I can trust him.

Since you seem to have great knowledge, will try to learn from you here too.

I too, agree system should have picked up the error. According to Gilbert he seemed to start with small increments as he tested. And noticed even at smaller voltages system was not picking up errors.

I haven't fully analyzed full video of Toyota Webcast today and the actul words used by Toyota spokespeople/representatives. Must go back and compare to Gilbert's study.

sharonkl · March 2010

Thanks for this link of the run away Prius. This time CHP is a witness. No denying the facts or placing blame elsewhere. Saw other reports driver was pretty shaken up after the incident too.

That is funny because CBS is news outlet Toyota released Webcast to while filming. One of first to have report up. And then one of first to have out of control Prius report too.

popsavalon · March 2010

Film clip on my local news had Prius owner stating he had taken vehicle to his dealer a couple of weeks ago and dealer told him it was not on the recall list. He also stated "I will never drive this vehicle again". It will be interesting to see what his options really are with Toyota.

sharonkl · March 2010

Actually Dr. Gilbert tested different levels of voltage and stated some system responded, and some system did not. Gilbert always said "if this could happen" system just does not always pick up abnormalities. And felt further testing needed to be done.

I vaguely remember your comments. You may be right aobut Toyot claims about how Gilbert did and reality - maybe. But I too did notice Toyota representative did leave some points totally out.

According to one report heard on news tonight, driver could not shift car into neutral or stop the vehicle, even following CHP directions. Haven't verified if further reports verify this or not. If this is true - could that affect your theory?? I recall that Mrs. Smith stated she could not shift car either, and went into all gears to no avail. If this is true aobut shifting - it could explain the many questions why an experienced CHP office who goes through frequent QA test in his line of work couldn't stop vehicle. Push button ignition could have been an issue since vehicle was a loaner, but he would have still be trained to resort to neutral.

Will be interesting if/when fruther f/u reports come out. Hope to see a CHP report, as know will see Toyota f/u..

windy025 · March 2010

Is it true the driver tried to shift to neutral to no effect? Even if it wasn't recalled shouldnt this disengage the engine? Maybe the engine computer was too busy calculating peak efficiency to notice anything amiss :confuse: .

sharonkl · March 2010

Just very wierd coincidence. And CHP both times. I am very sure San Diego area CHP are pretty upset today.

sharonkl · March 2010

As I just posted I saw one news report he could not shift to neutral or turn vehicle off. Even under direction of CHP. Haven't verified with other reports though.

elias · March 2010

beachfisherman ,

I'm very glad for you safely skating away skating away on the thin ice of a new day after your UA incidents .

Same for that dude in the runaway Prius in San Diego yesterday.
(The CHP saved his life by doing new maneuver which may be named "the Toyota maneuver" or "the Prius Reverse-Pitt Maneuver".)

revit · March 2010

Runaway Toyota Prius driver forced to call police

A terrified Toyota driver was forced to use a police vehicle to help stop his own runaway car after the accelerator pedal in his Prius became stuck at speeds of more than 90mph on a California highway.

James Sikes, 61, was overtaking another vehicle on a highway in San Diego yesterday when he suddenly realized that he could not control his car.

I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny ... it jumped and it just stuck there, Mr Skies said, adding that he could smell the brakes burning because he was pressing the pedal so hard as the car sped out of control.

As it was going, I was trying the brakes ... it wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything and it just kept speeding up.

roho1 · March 2010

"Leftlane" spoke with CHP officer Brian Pennings who confirmed the early report. Early reports incorrectly suggested the CHP used a Crown Victoria patrol car to pull in front of the Prius and brake to a stop  but new details suggest the contact was only made once the Prius was at a halt.

The vehicles did not touch until after they came to a stop, Pennings said.

Stay tuned for more corrections

carbuff1171 · March 2010

Actually my theory is consistent with such a report. It is based on the mounting evidence that once in the UA state, the car's ECM will not respond to a change in the shifter position. Remember that just like the gas pedal is not directly connected to the throttle, the shifter is not directly connected to the transmission. It has a sensor that provides input to the ECM and the ECM controls the electronic transmission.

When in the UA state, the ECM does not respond to the fact that the perfectly good pedal sensors are in the idle position. It does not respond to driver attempts to shut the engine down by pressing the Off button for any length of time. And in the Prius (that comes from the factory programmed with Brake Override), the ECM does not respond to the brake being applied. If it did, the ECM brake override logic would bring the engine to idle, and it obviously does not. Dr.Gilbert should be investigating how the ECM can get into a state where it ignores all subsequent sensor inputs and simultaneously commands the ETC to go to full throttle. Most likely that condition cannot be recreated by shorting a couple of circuits. I suspect it is a program bug in software and the real question is what triggers the logic path that encounters the bug. Once the ECM is reset at a dealer, these cars return to running fine (for an indeterminate amount of time). If the problem was caused by shorted wires, reseting the ECM would not help.

mikefm58 · March 2010

The Today show had a good clip on the incident, didn't say anything about shifting to neutral, did say he tried to turn off the engine by pressing and holding the ignition button, didn't say how long he held it, but 3-5 seconds would be an awful long time when your vehicle is speeding out of control. He was finally able to stop it by applying the emergency brake, as well as "standing" on the brakes. Hitting the brakes alone didn't slow down the vehicle. Burn brake smell was all over.

As bad as things are for Toyota, this makes things even worse.

lemko · March 2010

"...and Kyle Busch is doing a victory lap! And another, and another, and...another? Geeze, when is he going to stop?"

lemko · March 2010

A runaway Prius? Talk about hyperbole! Maybe a walkaway Prius. A beat cop had to sprint alongside the Prius at a brisk pace for 20 minutes until he could get in front of it and place his hands on the hood to stop it. :P

imidazol97 · March 2010

>they are responding immediately because this Prius came right after their big Webcast with multiple reporters today

I hope NHTSA gets the car before toyota is able to mess with it.

I saw the driver interviewed this morning on ABC and he said he would not drive that car again. He was clearly shaken. I'm waiting for someone to try to blame the driver on this one. toyota has a plethora of problems and events and it's busy putting on another horse and pony show about "look over here, these other cars will do something odd too," instead of fixing their own cars publicly.

lemko · March 2010

Well, Californians are in love with their Japanese cars and have favored Toyota up until now. My sister-in-law lives in Orange County and drives a Camry. I think it's an older one, maybe a 2004, that's not affected by this UA anomaly.

imidazol97 · March 2010

On NBC morning show today (Tuesday), Lauer and another NBC crack talking-head were commenting about the clip run and they were asking if the driver had tried to turn off the ignition. The driver and CHP said he had done everything trying to turn off the motor and stop the car. I believe Lauer had said he had tried to turn off the electronic ignition. The other crack reporter then seemed to try to mitigate the damage that statement (again) does where the car won't respond to the electronic OFF control. That other reporter was mumbling something about maybe the driver didn't know how to turn off the car.

But all the damage was already done. Prius runs away. Driver can't stop it. CHP was able to get nearby and help with emergency brake application which seemed to help slow the car and then it was able to be slowed more and more.

But there's a common thread through many of these. The car won't go into neutral. The car won't turn off the electronic pushbutton ON OFF switch. The brakes aren't effective in slowing the car despite this driver's standing on the brake pedal.

Scary.

imidazol97 · March 2010

> I think it's an older one, maybe a 2004, that's not affected by this UA anomaly.

Can we be _sure_ it's not affected? The plague of toyota acceleration seems to be spreading.

lemko · March 2010

Eeeek! I rode in this car three years ago! :surprise:

gagrice · March 2010

There have been complaints here at Edmunds and the NHTSA website with the Prius since 2003 when the new generation hybrid was spawned. Most of the people that experienced UA with their Prius came here as first time posters. No sooner had they posted their complaints, the Prius Cult would pounce on them.Calling them every kind of idiot for their lack of driving skills. Much like we have people here blaming all Toyota UA on the drivers.

Gladly for this fellow the section of Interstate 8 he was traveling becomes very lightly traveled when you get past the Tavern exit. It was about 20 miles past there that the CHP caught up with him and used a loudspeaker to give him instructions to use his emergency brake. I would also suspect the BIG Battery was down to a very low level by then as there are steep hills he had to go up. He drove from close to sea level and was finally able to stop at about the 4000 ft mark on I8. If it had been a high powered ES350 the CHP would not have caught him before the downhill section into the desert.

It looks to me like a buyer of a Toyota should have to go through an 8 hour course in tragedy prevention before given the keys to their potential death traps. It should include UA, faulty braking and wandering steering control.

imidazol97 · March 2010

toyota needs to install a fuel disable switch and give instructions on how to stop the motor by hitting the panic button. Maybe they can get help from Staples on supplying big red buttons and mount them on top of the dash in front of the driver: instead of "Easy" they could say "Help me!"

But wait. The Prius would need another switch to disable battery power as well. Maybe that button could say, "Just electrocute me instead!"

winter2 · March 2010

I think Toyota should rename the Prius. It should now be called the "Kamikaze Hybrid" or the "Hi ri Kiri Special". The car is getting the reputation of being a death trap.

The report which I saw and I heard was frightening. My biggest fear is that one of the affect Toyota products will take off and hit my wife or me.

On a related note which I heard yesterday, Toyota factory workers had sent a two page memo to management with concerns about vehicle quality and the fact that Toyota was cutting corners in building their vehicles. The news article, which I heard on the radio, went on to say that Toyota management ignored the concerns in that memo. Who better to see potential issues than the people who assemble the vehicles. As I recall, any worker on the Saturn assembly line could stop that assembly line if he/she picked up a problem.

popsavalon · March 2010

OK, here is the big question. What is the best method to install an ignition "kill switch" in a late model Toyota vehicle? There has to be a reasonally accessible hot wire (with the engine running) that can be controlled from the dash with a simple off/on toggle switch.

I am becoming convinced that turning off the ignition key may not stop the engine in a true UA situatuion.

sharonkl · March 2010

Videos show Prius is at CHP for now. Saw one report NHTSA and Toyota both will be responding. So now we wait to see if CHP and owner and NHTSA will release auto to Toyota.

Multiple different reports are coming out it seems. Similiar, but still some details left out. Report CHP released that officers car actually stopped auto with his own car was retracted. Video iterview - Officer was along side and over PA ws attempting to give suggestions. Officer had mentioned putting car into neutral. Did not say whether owner did or not. Saw one report owner did try.

Last advice - officer feels it was a combination of things finally got auto stopped. (1)steeper grade of freeway (2)emergency brake application (3)continue braking(officer could smell brakes of Prius). Officer did put his car in front of Prius at the end just in case auto took off again. Seems autos never touched though.

CHP and driver/owner make statement was not floor mat. Owner had checked. Owner makes claim acclerator pedal stuck and even despite trying to move pedal it stayed right where it was. Not sure what he actually means in his statement?

Two weeks ago had taken to his dealer with recall, and was told car not on list. Turned away. 2008 Prius

Owner states will not drive car again! Naturally owner is now quite upset at Toyota.

mickeyrom · March 2010

I own a 2007 Prius which is identical to the 2008 involved in this incident.First of all,there is no "off" switch.There is only a start button which acts as an off switch after you park the car.Same as turning a key off in a conventional car.
I have tried putting the car into neutral,and at slow speeds it does work,however I have never attempted that while at highway speeds,let alone at 90 MPH.
It is rather scary driving a Prius not knowing when or if it will take off out of control.People,don't buy into that floor-mat story.The floor-mats are on hooks and are not going anywhere.It's a red herring.

elias · March 2010

pops, some of the toyota vehicles do not have an ignition switch/key. they have a pushbutton that supposedly turns off the engine if held down for 3 seconds.
I think your ignition kill-switch idea is a good one, but I continue to recommend the "trade in your Toyota for a non-Toyota" solution.

mickeyrom · March 2010

Not gonna happen with the Prius.They have problems of their own.Google "Prius incident in California."

sharonkl · March 2010

Your theory is interesting. Also refer to the James family Prius run away incident. This was in Colorado.

mickeyrom · March 2010

Maybe this fails only under certain conditions,but traveling at 25MPH the shifter goes into N mode quite easily.Of course,maybe an electronic failure would affect that too.

mickeyrom · March 2010

What does UA mean?

gagrice · March 2010

UA= Unintended acceleration
SUA= Sudden Unintended Acceleration

sharonkl · March 2010

This is very interesting article from Seattle Washington reported way back April, 2009. Relates problems Prius and SUA/UA. People iterviewed and what they were told. Note one example where customer was test driving Prius for a possible purchase. And vehicle took off with salesman in auto as well. I got a kick out of the alleged statement where auto tech said if owners wouldn't put floor mats in cars the way they do there would be no problem. Prospective buyer said it's not my car, it's yours and he didn't do anything. Article is even before all took off last August.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-04-22/news/the-flip-side-of-the-perfect-prius

windy025 · March 2010

"I hope NHTSA gets the car before toyota is able to mess with it. "

NHTSA should assemble a team of engineers from bmw ford and suburu as well as the southern illinois prof and whoever else toyota is slinging mud at, and then we'll see how long before the source of the problem is found!

wwest · March 2010

In my opinion it is entirely possible that the source of the problem will NEVER be found, can NEVER be found. Unrepeatable combination of RANDOM external & internal (to the car) RFI/EMI voltage surge/drop events.

Long term solution: Install a totally independently operating BTO, Brake/Throttle Override.

graphicguy · March 2010

wwest....well, there is a solution. Redesign the Toyota/Lexus internal computer systems and do a recall do install them.

Now, understand that it would take billions more to do that (on top of the billions this has already cost Toyota). But, if it saves one life, it's worth it.

The issue here is, Toyota doesn't put the same emphasis on "loss of life" as apparently we do.

While the accidents, issues and deaths pile up, Toyota is trying to defend their stance against getting to the real problem. That's way misguided.

As was mentioned, hire Dr Gilbert. Get Ford, or Subaru, or any other company that's not suffering from the maladies Toyota and Lexus are suffering. Get it fixed.

Yeah, it will make Toyota look bad. But, what's more important? Saving lives, or looking good?

I pick saving lives.

goldsuv · March 2010

This MIT engineering professor says essentially the same thing.

http://www.designnews.com/article/446480-Toyota_s_Problem_Was_Unforeseeable.php

sharonkl · March 2010

Is it correct that Prius has brake override already???

dlploh · March 2010

Stuck accelerator sends Toyota Prius into a wall in Harrison
LESLIE KORNGOLD   MARCH 9, 2010

http://www.lohud.com/article/20100309/NEWS02/3090378/-1/newsfront/Stuck-accelera- tor-sends-Toyota-Prius-into-a-wall-in-Harrison

The 56-year-old driver suffered non-life threatening injuries, acting Chief Anthony Marraccini said.

The woman was pulling out of the driveway at 3700 Purchase St. facing forward when the accelerator stuck, police said.

The car "shot" across the street smashing into a stone wall, Marraccini said.

The collision sent "some pretty big boulders" fairly far, Marraccini said.

Marraccini said the floor mat has been pretty much ruled out as a cause. The 2005 car appears to have had corrective action taken, Marraccini said. The floor mat was tied to the seat base with plastic ties.

The car has been taken to police headquarters for further analysis.

The driver was being evaluated at White Plains Hospital Center.

On Monday, a 2008 Toyota Prius was finally stopped after attaining 94mph on a California interstate due to a stuck accelerator pedal.

According to media reports, California Highway Patrol figured the car had traveled over 20 miles with the stuck pedal.

That car was stopped by throwing it into reverse, standing on the brakes and turning it off, according to media reports.

wwest · March 2010

"..Redesign.."

Without knowing the current causative factor(s) how would you go about "designing it out" in a new design...??

sparkland · March 2010

Why can't people who have unintended acceleration problems just turn off the key or shift the car into neutral? Is that too hard? Learn some defensive driving people.

No excuse for Toyota, but any car can accelerate without warning--learn what to do!

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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