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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    interesting, looking more and more like a balloon boy event.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    The evidence should have been in the EDR (black box). What info did it contain? I posted what is kept in there from the EDR in my Sequoia. It should show if he hit the gas peddle then the brake. C'mon folks are you drinking the Toyota Koolaid. Of course it works after the fact. That is always the case. Reset the computers and all is well with no trace of a problem. The EDR should convict or absolve Sikes. Of course it could convict Toyota as well. Give us the EDR data in the raw form.

    image

    image

    If I have an incident and live through it, I will get a court order to read the data in my EDR before I allow a Toyota tech to lay a finger on my vehicle. I figured the test would be another big joke.
  • newdavidqnewdavidq Member Posts: 146
    Please clarify;

    As I understand it, the EDR only records data if a crash or near crash event occurs. Since the Sikes trip appears to have been an above the speed limit cruise down the freeway with not so much as a skid, panic stop or scratch to the vehicle, would the EDR have been activated?

    I believe that since the EDR only records and stores for a short time before and after an "event" what could it tell us about the many minutes long Sikes journey?

    Regards, DQ
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    Supposedly there is a second EDR when you have VSC as the Prius does. It should store data any time that system is activated. If the information in my Sequoia manual is correct, it looks to me like it should give data for any kind of abnormal Driving condition. For Toyota to come out of this clean they will have to prove how Sikes pulled off this scam. If their techs are not smart enough to do that, I don't see where they have a case. We know that shutting the car off resets a lot of things. Most people that have experienced UA, claim after they restart the vehicle it is fine. If the brakes were smoking there would have to be glazing of the rotors.

    I was just reading further reports. Are there people actually that much in love with Toyota they would threaten someone's life over this incident? Or is that a separate division of Exponent?

    By ELLIOT SPAGAT and KEN THOMAS, AP
    2 hours ago


    The report says that, according to Toyota's "residential Hybrid expert," the Prius is designed to shut down if the brakes are applied while the gas pedal is pressed to the floor. If it doesn't, the engine would "completely seize."

    The memo continued that in this case "it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time."

    The findings raise questions about "the credibility of Mr. Sikes' reporting of events," said Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for California Rep. Darrell Issa, the top Republican on the committee, which is looking into the incident.

    Sikes could not be reached to comment. However, his wife, Patty Sikes, said he stands by his story.

    "Everyone can just leave us alone," she said. "Jim didn't get hurt. There's no intent at all to sue Toyota. If any good can come out of this, maybe they can find out what happened so other people don't get killed."

    Mrs. Sikes said the couple's lives have been turned upside down since Monday and they are getting death threats.

    The brakes on the Prius also did not show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently.

    Toyota Corp. spokesman Mike Michels declined to confirm the Journal's report. He said the investigation was continuing and the company planned to release technical findings soon.

    Michels said the hybrid braking system in the Prius would make the engine lose power if the brakes and accelerator were pressed at the same time.

    The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent.

    "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.

    The rear brake pads had 1/2 mm left, or 3 1/2 mm less than new pads, the memo said.

    Jill Zuckman, spokeswoman for the U.S. Transportation Department that oversees the highway safety agency, said investigators "are still reviewing data and have not reached any conclusions."


    Since when did the Wall Street Journal merge with the National Enquirer? Are they losing readers and need to spice up the news a bit?

    PS
    Remember Issa was taking the side of Toyota in the hearings. He is trying to keep NUMMI open and figures he can do more by taking their side in this mess.
  • newdavidqnewdavidq Member Posts: 146
    It would seem that if the system resets itself if the vehicle is turned off, it would be useless as generally after an event, the vehicle would be turned off.

    It appears that the more we learn about this, the more elusive the truth becomes.

    Now, I'm even beginning to feel a twinge of sympathy for the Sikes family, but only a twinge.

    What is most troubling is the visceral condemnation of Toyota by many, a company which has a pretty good record in the US over many years. And yet these same people instantly accept a story from someone like Sikes.

    Regards, DQ
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Yes I did take in the video and it left everything hanging as to how it could fail. I would like to see a 5 sample repeatability study done with the Engineers responsible ,present .With the data from this sample size it could validate the true findings. The fact the two who designed this pedal and Toyota bought into it says it is good .(the Failure is some where if not this pedal. Compound parts are subject to fail if the plastic or compounds are not injected at the correct temp and mixture.The failure is subject to Manufacturing .) This is another subject the USA is failing in (Manufacturing)
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    My guess as a teen you acted like one too and the car did everything you asked of it. until the crap was beat out of it and you wanted another ? Then dear old dad says NO. I just bet you lit a fire under that pile of crap every time you drove it, the car did not fail it was the teen test it could not pass. ? The teen test is the best test because after the car is done if it passes it becomes a winner. Toyota's were great testers most teens could pick one up a dime a dozen used with 100,000 miles ,This was the car. This mind set carried over to now because GM Ford and Chrysler were never a Teen car.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Member Posts: 335
    edited March 2010
    Sounds like an EDR needs to store about 50x-100x as much data as is currently planned for! There are just so many variables that need do be accounted for!! (Not including those we can think of (The list will also have to include all those P codes (from sensor positions PRIOR AND AFTER....THE INCIDENT .

    Now for the real challenge(OBDII).....what about the "P" codes that may have been stored and probably are dependent upon each other (and it goes on and on and on!....Then we get down to the variables :sick: !!! THOSE NASTY OLE "HUMAN STORED ERRORS!!!" :sick:

    Actually this gets me to the real reason for this long post! I really like the VSC and Trac Control that some of our vehicles. IF YOU HAVE IT, CONSIDER YOURSELVES LUCKY!!!!! Those 2 systems alone have saved my butt more than a few times
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    All the teens I knew in my time drove Fords,Chevys,Pontiacs,Nashes,Mercs,Hudsons,Studebakers,......you get my point.Teens often drive American brands even today,although I'm not sure what that has to do with the Prius issue.I bet no teen would drive a Prius.
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    Supposedly there is a second EDR when you have VSC as the Prius does. It should store data any time that system is activated.

    The video of the Colorado Pruis crash shows that there is a separate computer unit for the airbags. This only records the instant when the airbags are deployed. It would tell when the airbag was deployed and other info like if the brake was engaged. In this case no airbag deployed.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    The Teen test works,dad gets smarter and the kids find their wheels , It would be nice to know what he drives to day? I have 6 kids over 40 the choices are from top down Chev Chev Chev Chrysler Pontiac Saturn and dad Buick Enclave.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Are you kidding Toyota just sent the Canadian Government a reader for the Black box that is experimental (never been used,has no manual,will take time to understand the data.) so what are you finding that can read a black box on Toyota?
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    No the Engineers put their design to Toyota for approval it is then up to Toyota to find a builder and The spec.are reached when composit and Die is cut (injection or press dies)
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Corvair was his hate not GM unsafe at any speed was the Quote!
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    edited March 2010
    Not to correct you but it was the Teen test of any car. The question I put to you is what are your friends driving today. Not that your friends are Smarter than the average teen by driving American built because depending how old you are the others were not here back then.In my case I drove and owned a Oldsmobile Super 88 at 18. This would make your point mute.(you think) so if you would please put it in context. Prius is still out investigating a ghost, The guy that had the problem,will soon be pregnant with horns and own some island in Europe (who cares?).
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    You ever compair the Geo Prism in CR and find how much crappier the Prism was to Toyota Corolla? whats with that? GM was the problem CR refused to Give GM anything good all around because it would not advertise with them. This ment give us millions to advertise we will give you good ratings? Look how Toyota caught them OUCH.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Mickeyrom, thanks for the info. I thought I read that the CHP told the guy in the Prius to put his parking brake on. Since it only activates the rear wheels, I wonder why Toyo would recommend against that. I guess if it goes in neutral, you're in good shape after that anyway, since there is an rpm limiter that will prevent over-revving the motor.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited March 2010
    Any intermittent software or electronics problem is hard to duplicate. Let's say the chance of this happening is one out of 10,000. That does not mean if you test one product for 10,000 times, you will get one failure. It's random. You probably need to test it 1 million times before drawing an conclusion.

    This is the game Toyota is playing. Since the odd to duplicate the problem is vastly smaller than not, they just deny any problem with software or electronics and let us to prove them wrong which is very very difficult.

    There have been 3 recent incidents involves Toyota this week. One in San Diego, one in New York and one in San Clemente.

    In the San Diego incidents, Toyota first released the financial trouble of the driver; then its executive made the comment that he's "mystified" by the incident because the Prius supposes to have the brake override system. Now today Toyota casted doubt on the incident further by saying they could not duplicated problem after 2 hours of test drive.

    The driver did not intend to sue Toyota, what would be his motive to fake it? Toyota executive's comment showed incredible ignorance or denial. Of course when everything is working fine, there would be no such incident. The brake override system SUPPOSES to work and it did not, this means there's a problem! CHP testified that he saw the brake lights on and smelled the burning brake. So aside from if the accelerator has problem or not, if the driver was faking the incident or not, the brake override did not work! A 2 hour test drive can not duplicate an intermittent problem which only happens once in several years.

    There are also many posts accusing the drivers not put the car in neutral or to turn off the car. Again, when the car is malfunction, it would not let the driver to do so. I suspect these arguments are also originated from Toyota PR personnels.

    Now the New York and San Clemente incidents. We did not hear any attacks from Toyota to the drivers because both drivers were injured. No one would risk their life to fake such incidents for financial gains because they may not survive.

    The San Clemente case clearly indicated the car was to blame. The car made a 90 degree turn into a parking lot behind Ralphs then accelerated in high rate and struck the parked truck without leaving any brake marks on the ground. The fact that the care successfully made the slow and sharp 90 degree turn into the parking lot proves the driver was alert and not under any influence. Then there's no reason for him to fly on without braking. This means that both the car's accelerator and brake failed.

    Toyota calculated the risk; they thought that it's virtually impossible for us to positively prove the cause of the accident so they just flat out deny everything on electronics. The so called mechanical fixes were just the cheapest way to get away.

    Testing a few cars for a few hours like Toyota and Exponent is doing now does not prove there's no problem of their cars! The black box would; that's why Toyota is guarding the black box data with their life. I also suspect that they designed the black box to record and retain as little data as possible so a 2 hour drive after the accident would push all the error data out of the memory thus erased all troubled history.

    Toyota is not dummy; they treat us like dummies; and many of us are dummies to believe in they lies.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Sharon, thanks for all your info and great posts!
    My hope is Sikes is legit and they figure out what happened. My fear is that with all the complicated electronics interactions they never will. It still doesn't smell right to me that he calls on his cell phone and has this conversation, just like the CHP officer who had the unfortunate accident with his family in CA. Seems a little too convenient, yet it's not fair to condemn him without hard evidence.
    And congrulations on your son's achievements. All us parents are thrilled when our kids get out into the world and make a success of themselves!
    Dennis
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Not on Toyota I read, so the RPM would shake you too at that time.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Thanks, xlu. I agree with almost all of your post. The part I don't agree with now is the San Clemente case. "The San Clemente case clearly indicated the car was to blame. The car made a 90 degree turn into a parking lot behind Ralphs then accelerated in high rate and struck the parked truck without leaving any brake marks on the ground. The fact that the care successfully made the slow and sharp 90 degree turn into the parking lot proves the driver was alert and not under any influence. Then there's no reason for him to fly on without braking. This means that both the car's accelerator and brake failed."
    I'm not saying you are wrong, but my theory right now is these kind of low speed incidents in town in close quarters may involve hitting the accelerator instead of the brake, since it was a situation that required braking and there was not enough time to recover. This happened to me with my Avalon a couple of months ago. Luckily, I didn't hit anything, just ran over a bush.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Yes, PMO, you can't trust dealers on used cars. I learned long ago to try to buy my used cars from the original owner. Check it out myself, and since I'm not that experienced, take it to a body shop. They will tell you for free if it's ever been wrecked. I usually slip the guy 10 bucks for his time. They are amazing, can spot body repairs in a few seconds. Then I take it to a mechanic and have engine and running gear checked, check how old the fluids are, etc. This can cost up to $100, but worth it if I want the car. Will only buy a cream puff. I try to buy a used car for half price or less, with two-thirds of the life still left in it. Older Ford Tauruses are great bargains, IMHO, because they depreciate so fast. I try to avoid rentals. My last one, a 2003, was a rental, but it's fine except for windows that "groan" when closing. Probably would have been fixed by a private owner, but the rental company probably didn't even know about it. I ignore it because I saved about 4k on it, paid cash, no payments. What's not to like?
    By paying cash, I wind up spending a lot less, buying what I need, not what I want.
    My Avalon was my first splurge. Bought it from the original owner. Barely a scratch on it, has a platinum warranty that lasts until 2012 or 100 k miles. Then Toyo hit their tipping point and have dug a deep hole for themselves to get out of. Hope they make it, but not sticking up for them, just trying to study this problem and keep my perspective. Can't forget their great reliability record.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Yes, Explorerx4, you are right. We can go overboard. Lots of products are so good now that an average product is still very good. Back in the sixties there was a great deal of difference. I only use it as a starting point, not as a bible, but wanted to point out Toyo's great long-term reliability record.
    Regards,
    Dennis
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    This San Diego runaway Prius investigation this week may be getting quite interesting reviewing the involved players. And the many players positions may be/could be all highly questionsable???? Sikes, Exponent, Issa, Toyota, NHTSA. At the end I list only one news report from today, as it was more detailed. Do google and you can find more today. Each will vary slightly on what they have reported. But investigation is still not completed - just this preliminary finding. Does appear all may not be as it seems. If you don't have all the dots to connect together with the final decision you may never never know the truth.
    .
    (1)Seems we have the driver of the Runaway Prius may have alleged dicey background. .James Sikes.
    Here are news report of incident.
    http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=12110134

    http://www.10news.com/news/22777208/detail.html

    This report mentions Sikes alleged dicey background mostly
    http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-jamessikesinvestigated0311,0,46776- 51.story

    (2)Toyota's hired gun firm - Exponent with their engineers is quite good but has their own history of ethical problems. Exponent is an excellent defensive litigation firm corporations use where firm is hired by corporation's lawyers so legal protection exists regarding their reports/studies. Firms hire when they are in big trouble. Exponent's work/studies/reports well known to only/almost always support their clients. UCSF medical center cardiologist that does research on tobacco use knows them well. Exponent has done reports/studies tobacco does not cause lung cancer - hired by tobacco firms to defend their business. Also PGE with their cancer causing chromium pollution problem Hinckley, California hired Exponent along with their former Vice President Dennis Paustenbach(Now of Chem Risk - San Francisco) -proven fraud scientific research study chromium does not cause cancer. Chromium does cause high incidents of cancer.illnesses. California famous blue ribbon panel findings thrown out here in California due to the fraud found. Remember movie Erin Brockovich. Two law suits won against PGE due chromium pollution. Huge, huge coverup exposed. Exponent hired by auto manufcturers and another study asbestos does not cause lung cancer/mesothelioma. Etc. Have lots more bookmarked other cases. As a medical professional, attending meetings, discussing and analyzing medical research studies, was already aware of Exponent long before SUA/UA situation started this past year. We discussed who they were at length.
    Here are some links to help. .
    http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/IJOEH_1202_Egilman.pdf

    http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/students/envs_5720/michaels_2008_CH5.pdf

    http://www.defendingscience.org/public_health_regulations/upload/NRDC_SAB_Asbest- os-2.pdf

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-06-pge-settlement-brocko- vich_x.htm

    http://www.ewg.org/featured/219

    (3)Representative Issa (here in California in southern California area)who is on congressional committee that is investigating Toyota.. Issa is the richest congressman. His company here southern California developed antitheft and sold anti theft to Toyota - sold company but still serves on board. Wrote letter defending Toyota in rebuttal letter to Congressional Representative Towns, chairman of Committee sent to Toyota claiming Toyota with held information from the courts. This was regarding the former Toyota's attorney documents supeonaed by committee. Issa demanded to be present during Toyota engineers inspections, NHTSA engineers inspections of runaway Toyota Prius. Made it public news headlines to make sure news was published & out. So then question seems to be - who is Issa protecting the public or Toyota??

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-biller28-2010feb28,0,5134884.story

    http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2010-02/52461172.pdf

    Note Issa's connections to Toyota. His company sold the alrm to Toyota
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/business/23donate.html

    Battle - Issa writes letter rebutting Chairman Towns letter - Issa's letter to Towns within article. Link provided.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/bitter-battle-breaks-congressmen-secret-toyota-doc- s/story?id=9993046

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/10/issa-butts-heads-with-nhtsa-over-- prius-probe/

    (3)Then you have Toyota that is in trouble - not even linking all the numerous links.

    (4)NHTSA - govenment safety agency that is also being investigated by oversight committee. Not listing links involving their problems

    Then today out comes articles of preliminary findings from investigation of Prius. Seem to claim Sikes story doesn't make sense. But brakes front were down to nothing.

    "The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent.
    "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.

    "Regarding the brake wear, Gomez cited a CHP officer's comment that brakes smelled as he chased Sikes on the freeway."

    "The brake wear was not consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently."

    Here is just one link of story out today. More news reports all over with slight variation..Just google for more.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=10095393&page=2

    Good luck sorting through all these links.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0db60b/250

    Sharon,

    Have you read the post 251 in the above link..?

    It explains EVERYTHING in the Sikes UA incident.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Andres3, thanks for the great quote:
    "I could of bought a Rolls Royce cheaper than keeping a Neon that long."
    I had a roommate for awhile in college back in the sixties who came from a very rich family. He said his grandma told him the reason she had a Rolls Royce was because she couldn't afford to buy a new Ford or Chevvy every two years! Loved that story! Sorry about your Neon, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here is the bottom line, if the Prius is accelerating (gaining speed) and the brake lights are on and visibly smoking. The Prius is NOT working as designed. End of story. Unless Sikes is some kind of electronics genius and was able to override the systems to create a fraud, it is an electronic problem in the Prius.

    The other cases where people speed up in a parking lot and ram something. Well I would be skeptical. It just seems strange that Toyota has more of those type UA than ALL other makes combined. I don't buy the theory that Toyota buyers are stupid and or incompetent.

    At least not you and me. :)
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    You are welcome. As you willl note I just sent a post today with more information regarding all the players involved in the Prius investigation. Maybe the public should have insisted on having their owned totally unbiased auto engineer present during the investigation??
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    That's right, gagrice, the rest of the Toyo owners may be stupid and incompetent, but surely not you and me!!!
    LOL!!
    Dennis :)
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am not an expert on auto mechanics, but runaway Prius this past week has many questions about players involved and questions about their positions. My post today reveals the questions about the players.

    When it was just the reports of finding and what CHP reported - brakes smelled, officer states he saw brake material on wheels and ground after the incident - should have indicated brakes were applied during the UA/UA incident. CHP was witness. Sikes may have dicey history, but facts of case initially have nothing to do with his dicey background. CHP did not know. But they always look for problems in the story too. CHP found none initially to question story.

    What can be sad is Sikes may have had real SUA/UA happen. The brakes It appeared by all reports given was real SUA/UA incident. But Sikes does not have money to fight Exponent defense engineers findings(know they were there), Toyota, Issa positions. Sikes alleged shady history may have made it easier to question/cause doubts/refute his claims. Just not sure what CHP new claims about incident are now/at present???
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    You always have all the expert knowledge we need. This helps to add to all the questionable positions of the players involved in the runaway Prius investigation that I posted here today.

    Questions -
    (1)Effect on braking since front brake pads gone???
    (2)Report by Gagrice back were down to 3mm & forget other number ???
    (3)CHP officer states smelled brakes, brake material visible on wheels and ground afer the incident??? Wouldn't this inidcate brakes applied??


    Since Prius is such an electronically computerized braking system if "bug" in system - brakes are gone.

    Thanks so much for info. Helps me alot. Look forard to hearing from you regrding my questions.



    How can this preliminary report come out saying
  • newdavidqnewdavidq Member Posts: 146
    Do I understand one of the reports to say that the brakes on Sikes car were "gone"?

    Does that mean that it is possible to wear off all of the brake pad material in the time this event lasted unless the pads were almost completely gone to start with?

    How many applications of how many pounds pressure does it take to remove x number 32nds on Prius brake pads?

    Hope this issue gets resolved soon so we can move on to other important issues. I'm going to pop over the ethanol forum and see whats happening.

    Regards, DQ
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...Wouldn't this indicate brakes were applied..."

    Yes, but the question remains "how hard".

    Suppose, as someone mentioned, regenerative braking can only accomplish up to 80% of the braking. So, due to the runaway condition the HSD control ECU didn't actually provide the 80% and the skid control made up the remaining 20%. Clearly not enough to stop the Prius but after 20-30 minutes of constant braking certainly enough to provide a brake burning odor and brake pad debris.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/13/pattern-wear-runaway-prius-brakes-raises-ques- tions/?test=latestnews

    "FOXNews.com

    Investigation of runaway Prius vehicle found a particular pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's version of the event. Investigators were also unable to make the Prius speed out of control as California man detailed."

    "But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota engineers, didn't find signs the brakes had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time, the three people familiar with the investigation said.
    The brakes were discolored and showed wear, but the pattern of friction suggested the driver had intermittently applied moderate pressure on the brakes, these people said, adding the investigation didn't find indicators of the heavy pressure described by Sikes."
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    As my link indicated, heavy or even EXTREME pressure on the brake pedal must go through the skid control ECU and HSD control ECU "handshake" "gateway" before ANY level of hydraulic brake fluid pressure is applied to the brakes.

    It's pretty clear that the HSD control ECU was in some way, somehow "out to lunch" so if it was properly, improperly, or not at all participating in the required handshake sequence is unknown, unknowable.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    "It's pretty clear that the HSD control ECU was in some way, somehow "out to lunch" "

    More than likely it was Mr. Sikes who was out to lunch.

    Meanwhile, Mr. Sikes did not wear out the brakes on the car as the early reports assumed. Early reports, middle reports, later reports, etc. So much that was reported is turning out to be not quite the whole truth.

    Feel free to argue with the experts, I'm just posting what is in the news.

    John
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, that's what reports say. Refer back to my post regarding the players making reports. Issa has his own questionable history- defended Toyota & sold antitheft to Toyota and still serves on board.. Hired Exponent engineeers there for Toyota have huge "dicey" past and that's what they do is twist anything to support their clients. And then must see who NHTSA sent?? Was he actually an auto engineer with strong background or just a tech?? Don't take reports at face value until players involved known and how they may be connected to Toyota or what their expertise is. .

    I connected enough dots this morning from my huge bookmarked list. I was disappointed and shocked at what I found, and then eventually realized what we may be seeing. That is why I said story is interesting and players positions are highly questionable.

    What is sad for Sikes - he could have very well gone through SUA/UA incident, but his shady background could have/have created major issues making much easier to discredit his story. Maybe his story is false/may very well not be. He has attorney representing him now. Sikes has always said he loves Toyota and had no plans to sue. Started saying this befroe he even hired attorney. Sikes has no damage claim to even sue, no money to fight Toyota corporation. If his backgrtound is true, then gentleman is not someone I would respect at all.

    CHP reports and news reports in the beginning when it happened, did not feel story was hoax per reports. Findings at time of incident/post incident, and CHP interviews support this. Have not seen any report from them today.

    Put my links from prior post together. Then consider known questionable facts of players and what facts about incident exist. Manufacturer in charge of own tests. Issa representative not expert per reports.

    I would guess a full out attack to come forward against Sikes. Toyota appears to be in attack mode now.

    Story to be continued it seems.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..did not wear out the brakes..."

    Maybe because the poorly coded skid control firmware wouldn't allow him to use FULL braking..??
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My guess is Issa, NHTSA and CHP all had observers while some local Toyota Hybrid tech did the testing. I would be surprised if there was an engineer in the bunch. Just a bunch of lookie loos. Then you notice the report was all anonymous. Very fishy indeed. We have to face reality. Toyota has kept all this stuff pretty much to themselves. So finding an outside trained engineer that knows the inner workings of the Prius is not going to be easy to find. And when you do find him or her would they be willing to be a target for the Toyota smear squad?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You understand the Prius ultimately better than I do. My understanding is when you lightly touch the brake peddle the regen braking system takes over. That shuts down the forward motion through the HSD system. The hydraulic brakes do not come into play unless you stomp hard and only for emergency stops. I don't see how Toyota can build a case for this being a hoax without admitting their electronics are faulty.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Yes, when the brake light switch is tripped the skid control ECU "looks" at several sensors to determine the level of braking the driver is "requesting". Once it determines the total braking level required at this very instant it sends a message to the HSD control ECU. Basically the skid control ECU is telling the HSD control ECU how much total braking force is required and at the same time "asking" how much of this can it supply using regenerative braking.

    In the normal case the HSD control ECU might come back with the ability of 0 to 100%, but let's use 50%. In which case now the skid control ECU can open the ABS/TC manifolds enough to supply the other 50%.

    And if the HSD control ECU isn't communicating....WHAT...??
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Well I did provide enough links with known facts I had saved since this all began today. Hope it helps everyone.

    As to your reference of an outside independent engineer - not sure they would want the liabilty or the big fight, and the professional damage attacks they could experience.

    I was shocked. Story will continue. All has been quite an education for me.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, they have had a great reliability rating and record. That was why I got my RAV4. It was rated well.

    I started out thinking I needed to investigate, learn, etc when this started. I had vested interest. I had found myself with the time to do this. Just retired. Started this rooting strong for Toyota. Paper trail grew, and then disappoinment.

    Despite all I have found out about everything - I do know and realize Toyota will come back. Markets already indicate they are. Memories are short, and most people not aware of all the detailed facts.
    Etc.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    So from what you said few questions may still remain. Even though CHP saw brake material and smelled brakes. Now throw in Issa and his trail & the questions, Toyota hired Exponent engineers & possibly one of their own inhouse engineers, and who NHTSA sent.

    But brakes could/may not have been able to stop vehicle. Got it. Guess we wait for the next chaper to unfold.

    Many thanks.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    "Brian Pennings, a spokesman for the California Highway Patrol, said his agency's view that there is no evidence of a hoax is unchanged. The CHP does not plan to investigate the incident because there were no injuries or property damage.

    "Unless they can completely disprove Mr. Sikes, we're done," Pennings said. "It doesn't sound like they can do that."
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Sorry there were two posts. My computer froze and then did auto post without me hitting post my message. Sorry. Wierd. Guess a "bug" hit my poor computer too.

    "The memo said both the front and rear brakes were worn and damaged by heat, consistent with Sikes saying that he stood on the brake pedal with both feet and was unable to stop the car. But if the fail-safe system worked properly, the brakes wouldn't have been damaged because power would have been cut to the wheels.

    The Wall Street Journal reported Saturday that the wear was not consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently."

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gc_pIFqke7WxQovY3MnhcyIYiLgwD9- EEO8H01
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    The skid control ECU is the SOLE manager of the HYDRAULIC braking. If the HSD control ECU "told" the skid control ECU that it could provide ~70% of the braking force via regenerative braking (but didn't) then the skid control ECU would only allow 30% Hydraulic braking force. And that 30% might well have been heavily biased toward the rear brakes.

    There is STRONG evidence that the HSD control ECU firmware had gone awry so anything is possible.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    You are the perfect used car shopper,I too bought this way when younger but not now. This Enclave cost me $1800.00 it is a 2009 my 2008 traded with 6000 miles. I looked at the extra 8 Hp and the options tow pak.trans.cooler. and leather could not let it go . This is trade up one year too.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    [quote]If all else fails there is direct hydraulic pressure from the brake pedal.[/quote]



    The documentation clearly implies that the skid control ECU will NOT open the ABS/TC manifold ports to allow hydraulic braking to the wheels if the HSD control ECU "says" it will provide 100% of the braking. So it might not matter how hard your depress the brake pedal the resulting hydraulic pressure may not be ported to the wheels or maybe only a portion provided what the HSD control ECU "reports".



    Yes, clearly there should be, SHOULD BE, a "time out" period if the HSD control ECU doesn't report back within a very short time limit, say <10 milliseconds.



    But if you look at the 2010 Prius TSB regarding the fix for delayed hydraulic braking in the event ABS disables regenerative braking then it becomes quite clear that NipponDenso has overlooked, until now, the need for this type of time out.



    It appears, from reading the TSB, that the early HSD control ECU was sometimes LATE (to busy, too many other more important tasks..??) in responding to the skid control ECU's query and the skid control ECU simply stood by and waited.



    Meanwhile......NO braking.
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