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Comments
If I have an incident and live through it, I will get a court order to read the data in my EDR before I allow a Toyota tech to lay a finger on my vehicle. I figured the test would be another big joke.
As I understand it, the EDR only records data if a crash or near crash event occurs. Since the Sikes trip appears to have been an above the speed limit cruise down the freeway with not so much as a skid, panic stop or scratch to the vehicle, would the EDR have been activated?
I believe that since the EDR only records and stores for a short time before and after an "event" what could it tell us about the many minutes long Sikes journey?
Regards, DQ
I was just reading further reports. Are there people actually that much in love with Toyota they would threaten someone's life over this incident? Or is that a separate division of Exponent?
By ELLIOT SPAGAT and KEN THOMAS, AP
2 hours ago
The report says that, according to Toyota's "residential Hybrid expert," the Prius is designed to shut down if the brakes are applied while the gas pedal is pressed to the floor. If it doesn't, the engine would "completely seize."
The memo continued that in this case "it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time."
The findings raise questions about "the credibility of Mr. Sikes' reporting of events," said Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for California Rep. Darrell Issa, the top Republican on the committee, which is looking into the incident.
Sikes could not be reached to comment. However, his wife, Patty Sikes, said he stands by his story.
"Everyone can just leave us alone," she said. "Jim didn't get hurt. There's no intent at all to sue Toyota. If any good can come out of this, maybe they can find out what happened so other people don't get killed."
Mrs. Sikes said the couple's lives have been turned upside down since Monday and they are getting death threats.
The brakes on the Prius also did not show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently.
Toyota Corp. spokesman Mike Michels declined to confirm the Journal's report. He said the investigation was continuing and the company planned to release technical findings soon.
Michels said the hybrid braking system in the Prius would make the engine lose power if the brakes and accelerator were pressed at the same time.
The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent.
"Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.
The rear brake pads had 1/2 mm left, or 3 1/2 mm less than new pads, the memo said.
Jill Zuckman, spokeswoman for the U.S. Transportation Department that oversees the highway safety agency, said investigators "are still reviewing data and have not reached any conclusions."
Since when did the Wall Street Journal merge with the National Enquirer? Are they losing readers and need to spice up the news a bit?
PS
Remember Issa was taking the side of Toyota in the hearings. He is trying to keep NUMMI open and figures he can do more by taking their side in this mess.
It appears that the more we learn about this, the more elusive the truth becomes.
Now, I'm even beginning to feel a twinge of sympathy for the Sikes family, but only a twinge.
What is most troubling is the visceral condemnation of Toyota by many, a company which has a pretty good record in the US over many years. And yet these same people instantly accept a story from someone like Sikes.
Regards, DQ
Now for the real challenge(OBDII).....what about the "P" codes that may have been stored and probably are dependent upon each other (and it goes on and on and on!....Then we get down to the variables :sick: !!! THOSE NASTY OLE "HUMAN STORED ERRORS!!!" :sick:
Actually this gets me to the real reason for this long post! I really like the VSC and Trac Control that some of our vehicles. IF YOU HAVE IT, CONSIDER YOURSELVES LUCKY!!!!! Those 2 systems alone have saved my butt more than a few times
The video of the Colorado Pruis crash shows that there is a separate computer unit for the airbags. This only records the instant when the airbags are deployed. It would tell when the airbag was deployed and other info like if the brake was engaged. In this case no airbag deployed.
This is the game Toyota is playing. Since the odd to duplicate the problem is vastly smaller than not, they just deny any problem with software or electronics and let us to prove them wrong which is very very difficult.
There have been 3 recent incidents involves Toyota this week. One in San Diego, one in New York and one in San Clemente.
In the San Diego incidents, Toyota first released the financial trouble of the driver; then its executive made the comment that he's "mystified" by the incident because the Prius supposes to have the brake override system. Now today Toyota casted doubt on the incident further by saying they could not duplicated problem after 2 hours of test drive.
The driver did not intend to sue Toyota, what would be his motive to fake it? Toyota executive's comment showed incredible ignorance or denial. Of course when everything is working fine, there would be no such incident. The brake override system SUPPOSES to work and it did not, this means there's a problem! CHP testified that he saw the brake lights on and smelled the burning brake. So aside from if the accelerator has problem or not, if the driver was faking the incident or not, the brake override did not work! A 2 hour test drive can not duplicate an intermittent problem which only happens once in several years.
There are also many posts accusing the drivers not put the car in neutral or to turn off the car. Again, when the car is malfunction, it would not let the driver to do so. I suspect these arguments are also originated from Toyota PR personnels.
Now the New York and San Clemente incidents. We did not hear any attacks from Toyota to the drivers because both drivers were injured. No one would risk their life to fake such incidents for financial gains because they may not survive.
The San Clemente case clearly indicated the car was to blame. The car made a 90 degree turn into a parking lot behind Ralphs then accelerated in high rate and struck the parked truck without leaving any brake marks on the ground. The fact that the care successfully made the slow and sharp 90 degree turn into the parking lot proves the driver was alert and not under any influence. Then there's no reason for him to fly on without braking. This means that both the car's accelerator and brake failed.
Toyota calculated the risk; they thought that it's virtually impossible for us to positively prove the cause of the accident so they just flat out deny everything on electronics. The so called mechanical fixes were just the cheapest way to get away.
Testing a few cars for a few hours like Toyota and Exponent is doing now does not prove there's no problem of their cars! The black box would; that's why Toyota is guarding the black box data with their life. I also suspect that they designed the black box to record and retain as little data as possible so a 2 hour drive after the accident would push all the error data out of the memory thus erased all troubled history.
Toyota is not dummy; they treat us like dummies; and many of us are dummies to believe in they lies.
My hope is Sikes is legit and they figure out what happened. My fear is that with all the complicated electronics interactions they never will. It still doesn't smell right to me that he calls on his cell phone and has this conversation, just like the CHP officer who had the unfortunate accident with his family in CA. Seems a little too convenient, yet it's not fair to condemn him without hard evidence.
And congrulations on your son's achievements. All us parents are thrilled when our kids get out into the world and make a success of themselves!
Dennis
I'm not saying you are wrong, but my theory right now is these kind of low speed incidents in town in close quarters may involve hitting the accelerator instead of the brake, since it was a situation that required braking and there was not enough time to recover. This happened to me with my Avalon a couple of months ago. Luckily, I didn't hit anything, just ran over a bush.
By paying cash, I wind up spending a lot less, buying what I need, not what I want.
My Avalon was my first splurge. Bought it from the original owner. Barely a scratch on it, has a platinum warranty that lasts until 2012 or 100 k miles. Then Toyo hit their tipping point and have dug a deep hole for themselves to get out of. Hope they make it, but not sticking up for them, just trying to study this problem and keep my perspective. Can't forget their great reliability record.
Regards,
Dennis
.
(1)Seems we have the driver of the Runaway Prius may have alleged dicey background. .James Sikes.
Here are news report of incident.
http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=12110134
http://www.10news.com/news/22777208/detail.html
This report mentions Sikes alleged dicey background mostly
http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-jamessikesinvestigated0311,0,46776- 51.story
(2)Toyota's hired gun firm - Exponent with their engineers is quite good but has their own history of ethical problems. Exponent is an excellent defensive litigation firm corporations use where firm is hired by corporation's lawyers so legal protection exists regarding their reports/studies. Firms hire when they are in big trouble. Exponent's work/studies/reports well known to only/almost always support their clients. UCSF medical center cardiologist that does research on tobacco use knows them well. Exponent has done reports/studies tobacco does not cause lung cancer - hired by tobacco firms to defend their business. Also PGE with their cancer causing chromium pollution problem Hinckley, California hired Exponent along with their former Vice President Dennis Paustenbach(Now of Chem Risk - San Francisco) -proven fraud scientific research study chromium does not cause cancer. Chromium does cause high incidents of cancer.illnesses. California famous blue ribbon panel findings thrown out here in California due to the fraud found. Remember movie Erin Brockovich. Two law suits won against PGE due chromium pollution. Huge, huge coverup exposed. Exponent hired by auto manufcturers and another study asbestos does not cause lung cancer/mesothelioma. Etc. Have lots more bookmarked other cases. As a medical professional, attending meetings, discussing and analyzing medical research studies, was already aware of Exponent long before SUA/UA situation started this past year. We discussed who they were at length.
Here are some links to help. .
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/IJOEH_1202_Egilman.pdf
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/students/envs_5720/michaels_2008_CH5.pdf
http://www.defendingscience.org/public_health_regulations/upload/NRDC_SAB_Asbest- os-2.pdf
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-06-pge-settlement-brocko- vich_x.htm
http://www.ewg.org/featured/219
(3)Representative Issa (here in California in southern California area)who is on congressional committee that is investigating Toyota.. Issa is the richest congressman. His company here southern California developed antitheft and sold anti theft to Toyota - sold company but still serves on board. Wrote letter defending Toyota in rebuttal letter to Congressional Representative Towns, chairman of Committee sent to Toyota claiming Toyota with held information from the courts. This was regarding the former Toyota's attorney documents supeonaed by committee. Issa demanded to be present during Toyota engineers inspections, NHTSA engineers inspections of runaway Toyota Prius. Made it public news headlines to make sure news was published & out. So then question seems to be - who is Issa protecting the public or Toyota??
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-biller28-2010feb28,0,5134884.story
http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2010-02/52461172.pdf
Note Issa's connections to Toyota. His company sold the alrm to Toyota
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/business/23donate.html
Battle - Issa writes letter rebutting Chairman Towns letter - Issa's letter to Towns within article. Link provided.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/bitter-battle-breaks-congressmen-secret-toyota-doc- s/story?id=9993046
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/10/issa-butts-heads-with-nhtsa-over-- prius-probe/
(3)Then you have Toyota that is in trouble - not even linking all the numerous links.
(4)NHTSA - govenment safety agency that is also being investigated by oversight committee. Not listing links involving their problems
Then today out comes articles of preliminary findings from investigation of Prius. Seem to claim Sikes story doesn't make sense. But brakes front were down to nothing.
"The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent.
"Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.
"Regarding the brake wear, Gomez cited a CHP officer's comment that brakes smelled as he chased Sikes on the freeway."
"The brake wear was not consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently."
Here is just one link of story out today. More news reports all over with slight variation..Just google for more.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=10095393&page=2
Good luck sorting through all these links.
Sharon,
Have you read the post 251 in the above link..?
It explains EVERYTHING in the Sikes UA incident.
"I could of bought a Rolls Royce cheaper than keeping a Neon that long."
I had a roommate for awhile in college back in the sixties who came from a very rich family. He said his grandma told him the reason she had a Rolls Royce was because she couldn't afford to buy a new Ford or Chevvy every two years! Loved that story! Sorry about your Neon, though.
The other cases where people speed up in a parking lot and ram something. Well I would be skeptical. It just seems strange that Toyota has more of those type UA than ALL other makes combined. I don't buy the theory that Toyota buyers are stupid and or incompetent.
At least not you and me.
LOL!!
Dennis
When it was just the reports of finding and what CHP reported - brakes smelled, officer states he saw brake material on wheels and ground after the incident - should have indicated brakes were applied during the UA/UA incident. CHP was witness. Sikes may have dicey history, but facts of case initially have nothing to do with his dicey background. CHP did not know. But they always look for problems in the story too. CHP found none initially to question story.
What can be sad is Sikes may have had real SUA/UA happen. The brakes It appeared by all reports given was real SUA/UA incident. But Sikes does not have money to fight Exponent defense engineers findings(know they were there), Toyota, Issa positions. Sikes alleged shady history may have made it easier to question/cause doubts/refute his claims. Just not sure what CHP new claims about incident are now/at present???
Questions -
(1)Effect on braking since front brake pads gone???
(2)Report by Gagrice back were down to 3mm & forget other number ???
(3)CHP officer states smelled brakes, brake material visible on wheels and ground afer the incident??? Wouldn't this inidcate brakes applied??
Since Prius is such an electronically computerized braking system if "bug" in system - brakes are gone.
Thanks so much for info. Helps me alot. Look forard to hearing from you regrding my questions.
How can this preliminary report come out saying
Does that mean that it is possible to wear off all of the brake pad material in the time this event lasted unless the pads were almost completely gone to start with?
How many applications of how many pounds pressure does it take to remove x number 32nds on Prius brake pads?
Hope this issue gets resolved soon so we can move on to other important issues. I'm going to pop over the ethanol forum and see whats happening.
Regards, DQ
Yes, but the question remains "how hard".
Suppose, as someone mentioned, regenerative braking can only accomplish up to 80% of the braking. So, due to the runaway condition the HSD control ECU didn't actually provide the 80% and the skid control made up the remaining 20%. Clearly not enough to stop the Prius but after 20-30 minutes of constant braking certainly enough to provide a brake burning odor and brake pad debris.
"FOXNews.com
Investigation of runaway Prius vehicle found a particular pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's version of the event. Investigators were also unable to make the Prius speed out of control as California man detailed."
"But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota engineers, didn't find signs the brakes had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time, the three people familiar with the investigation said.
The brakes were discolored and showed wear, but the pattern of friction suggested the driver had intermittently applied moderate pressure on the brakes, these people said, adding the investigation didn't find indicators of the heavy pressure described by Sikes."
It's pretty clear that the HSD control ECU was in some way, somehow "out to lunch" so if it was properly, improperly, or not at all participating in the required handshake sequence is unknown, unknowable.
More than likely it was Mr. Sikes who was out to lunch.
Meanwhile, Mr. Sikes did not wear out the brakes on the car as the early reports assumed. Early reports, middle reports, later reports, etc. So much that was reported is turning out to be not quite the whole truth.
Feel free to argue with the experts, I'm just posting what is in the news.
John
I connected enough dots this morning from my huge bookmarked list. I was disappointed and shocked at what I found, and then eventually realized what we may be seeing. That is why I said story is interesting and players positions are highly questionable.
What is sad for Sikes - he could have very well gone through SUA/UA incident, but his shady background could have/have created major issues making much easier to discredit his story. Maybe his story is false/may very well not be. He has attorney representing him now. Sikes has always said he loves Toyota and had no plans to sue. Started saying this befroe he even hired attorney. Sikes has no damage claim to even sue, no money to fight Toyota corporation. If his backgrtound is true, then gentleman is not someone I would respect at all.
CHP reports and news reports in the beginning when it happened, did not feel story was hoax per reports. Findings at time of incident/post incident, and CHP interviews support this. Have not seen any report from them today.
Put my links from prior post together. Then consider known questionable facts of players and what facts about incident exist. Manufacturer in charge of own tests. Issa representative not expert per reports.
I would guess a full out attack to come forward against Sikes. Toyota appears to be in attack mode now.
Story to be continued it seems.
Maybe because the poorly coded skid control firmware wouldn't allow him to use FULL braking..??
In the normal case the HSD control ECU might come back with the ability of 0 to 100%, but let's use 50%. In which case now the skid control ECU can open the ABS/TC manifolds enough to supply the other 50%.
And if the HSD control ECU isn't communicating....WHAT...??
As to your reference of an outside independent engineer - not sure they would want the liabilty or the big fight, and the professional damage attacks they could experience.
I was shocked. Story will continue. All has been quite an education for me.
I started out thinking I needed to investigate, learn, etc when this started. I had vested interest. I had found myself with the time to do this. Just retired. Started this rooting strong for Toyota. Paper trail grew, and then disappoinment.
Despite all I have found out about everything - I do know and realize Toyota will come back. Markets already indicate they are. Memories are short, and most people not aware of all the detailed facts.
Etc.
But brakes could/may not have been able to stop vehicle. Got it. Guess we wait for the next chaper to unfold.
Many thanks.
"Unless they can completely disprove Mr. Sikes, we're done," Pennings said. "It doesn't sound like they can do that."
"The memo said both the front and rear brakes were worn and damaged by heat, consistent with Sikes saying that he stood on the brake pedal with both feet and was unable to stop the car. But if the fail-safe system worked properly, the brakes wouldn't have been damaged because power would have been cut to the wheels.
The Wall Street Journal reported Saturday that the wear was not consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gc_pIFqke7WxQovY3MnhcyIYiLgwD9- EEO8H01
There is STRONG evidence that the HSD control ECU firmware had gone awry so anything is possible.
The documentation clearly implies that the skid control ECU will NOT open the ABS/TC manifold ports to allow hydraulic braking to the wheels if the HSD control ECU "says" it will provide 100% of the braking. So it might not matter how hard your depress the brake pedal the resulting hydraulic pressure may not be ported to the wheels or maybe only a portion provided what the HSD control ECU "reports".
Yes, clearly there should be, SHOULD BE, a "time out" period if the HSD control ECU doesn't report back within a very short time limit, say <10 milliseconds.
But if you look at the 2010 Prius TSB regarding the fix for delayed hydraulic braking in the event ABS disables regenerative braking then it becomes quite clear that NipponDenso has overlooked, until now, the need for this type of time out.
It appears, from reading the TSB, that the early HSD control ECU was sometimes LATE (to busy, too many other more important tasks..??) in responding to the skid control ECU's query and the skid control ECU simply stood by and waited.
Meanwhile......NO braking.