Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Do agree - need some new laws - auto safety requirements and more legal authority for NHTSA so they can act more like a watchdog than a lapdog. NHTSA does have a promise for more staff, but budget has been stagnant/possibly decreased over the years. Many aspects are good - but problems do exist and need to be corrected. My hope is public pressure with this issue will be win/win for all involved.
I know. Couldn't let it pass.
NHTSA: will get lots of attention for a while and then become a political patronage job again. Also follow the money trail as to what happens to NHTSA and other related automotive agencies.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Would be nice if Toyota explained this system analysis more. Explain when, over what period of times, etc. If system only stores the number, and no other info - problems.
Not doing just creates/leads to confusion and more suspicion among all of us. Pieces of puzzle still missing it seems.
http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/05-0271-W.pdf
Driver did not hit the brakes at all
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is leaving a cryptic message with reporters that points to driver error, not unintended acceleration, in a key case involving the Prius. Specifically, this is regarding the housekeeper who ran a 2005 Toyota Prius down a driveway and crashed into a wall across the street from the house, saying she was the victim of unintended acceleration last week. The e-mail reads:
Attributable to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regarding the recent Harrison, NY crash involving a Toyota Prius:
"Information retrieved from the vehicle's onboard computer systems indicated there was no application of the brakes and the throttle was fully open."
No further explanation. Sounds like the implication is this is another case of driver error, a case in which the accelerator pedal was mistaken for the brake pedal. Toyota's John Hanson says the investigation is officially being handled by the Harrison Police Department and he won't comment until then.
On Monday, Toyota held a San Diego press conference to dispute the claims of James Sikes, driver of the runaway Prius that sped up to 90 miles an hour on a San Diego freeway. Toyota attempted to show how his claims didn't match the capabilities of the car.
Does that mean the brake pedal was never depressed or does it mean the skid control computer never allowed the frictional brakes to come "on line".
Care, extra care, must now be taken about anything that comes out of the "mouths" of Toyota.
In the Sikes San Diego runaway case we were first informed that both the brake pedal and gas pedal had been "cycled" more than 250 times. The latest correction says that while the brake pedal was cycled 250 times the throttle remained fully open the entire time.
"..the throttle remained fully open the entire time.."
Note: No report as to the status/state of the gas pedal.
Was Toyota forced to tell the RAW thruth due to the more detailed report of the CHP officer..??
At this juncture, it's ridiculous and preposterous to think that Toyota would STILL be trying to hide things.
They have no face to save. The hiding days are OVER.
How does Toyota know that for sure? Just based on the black box data? What if the brake sensor circuit or software was malfunction and ignored the braking request by the driver? In this case, of course the black box would not record a brake event. That's part of the problem.
Also, is there a time stamp with each event? When was the last brake event recorded? If no brake event recorded what so ever, something is seriously wrong with that car.
They have no face to save. The hiding days are OVER.
Oh yeah, Toyota has every reason to hide the fact, even more so now then ever. It's not about saving face; it's about saving Toyota's life in many lawsuits against them; and fundamental consumer trust. If they admit their electronics is at fault, they would almost automatically lose all the lawsuits and have to pay huge penalties; and no one would buy their cars in the future except a few fanatics.
And as I posted the other day that view is ridiculous and prosperous. Toyota has a lot to lose by admitting there are problems beyond wht they have slowly divulged.
They have no face to save.
Sure they do. Toyota has to save face in order to keep a customer base. Toyota also can lose a lot more $$ for a) recalls for any new problems not previously fixed, and b) by admitting guilt or negligence they are likely to lose a lot more $$ in a lot more lawsuits.
The hiding days are OVER
So if someone is known to be hiding things as a pattern for a few years, people should just naively believe that it is over, because they said it's over. Toyota still has a lot to lose - that is their motive. Like any good detective, you should question if there is a MOTIVE. Toyota certainly has a motive to hide any further damaging information. That is why the NHTSA and local law enforcement are now checking each accident and making sure Toyota isn't easily hiding, destroying or altering data.
But lies are not part of the plan, you can also bet that bottom dollar.
Military recruiters = car salesman = Toyota at the beginning of this issue
Toyota has now realized that lying is not getting them anywhere.
Grand Cherokee, Car Washes Don't Mix (AutoObserver)
It wasn't until the CHP got in front of this guy where he may have to collide with the CHP vehicle did this Sikes individual decide that he didn't want to try and pull off that car stunt. Then miraculously the brakes started to work. As for his demeanor? The Oscar goes to:......[/QUOTE]
Actually it appears from reading the CHP officers report that the Prius began to stop once the e-brake was applied on an uphill roadway section.
Even if you assume the frictional brakes were fully functional you still have to take ABS activity into consideration. With the drive system applying a strong forward force to the front wheels simultaneous with frictional braking the braking at the front would have undoubtedly been less than expected.
The braking at the rear may have been compromised by the Anti-lock braking systems efforts to keep the rear wheels rolling, rotating, at some speed very close to that of the front wheel.
Then the e-brake tipped the balance of the equation toward stopping the Prius.
I really think the NHTSA needs to look long an hard at all the DBW systems we are being forced to have in our vehicles.
Going uphill is a chore for the Prius and that is a fact. Then when the Prius finally slowed to under 55 MPH Sikes did hold down the OFF button and it killed the UA & forward motion. I am not sure what is so hard for the Hoaxers to understand. Toyota has some issues they would rather deny than dig out and fix. That and the overwhelming number of faulty hybrids they have sold would cost $billions to retro-fit with safe electronics. Not to mention many other models in their fleet with poorly designed DBW systems.
that is a big step toward creating a solution.
Kevin Haggerty, Pittstown, NJ
"Kevin Haggerty, owner of a 2007 Avalon, experienced SUA multiple times; he did not have accessory floor mats, and the OE mats were secured in place. Haggerty reported five SUA events. Several times, the vehicle accelerated without his foot on the gas pedal. The engine would return to idle after driving a few miles or after the Avalon shut down and restarted or was stopped and put into park. Haggerty’s vehicle was checked at the dealership, but they could find nothing wrong. According to his NHTSA complaint:
“Then on 12/28/09 I was driving to work on a major highway. The car began to accelerate without my foot on the gas pedal. As I pushed on the brake, the car continued to accelerate. At that time I was not able to stop my vehicle by pressing hard on the brake. The only way I was able to slow the car down was to put the car into neutral. I took the next exit, which was the exit for the Toyota dealership. I called the dealership and told the service manager to meet me outside because I was experiencing acceleration problems. I drove approximately 5 miles by alternating from neutral to drive and pressing very firmly on the brakes. As I pulled into the front of the dealership I put the car into neutral and exited the car. With the brakes smoking from the excessive braking and the car’s rpm’s racing the manager entered my car. He confirmed that the mats were properly in place and confirmed the rpm’s were very high.”
Toyota Response: The Toyota dealer contacted Toyota’s regional representative in Caldwell, NJ who later inspected the vehicle, but did not provide details of this inspection to Haggerty. However, Toyota Motor Sales authorized replacement of the throttle body and accelerator pedal assemblies and sensors and paid for the $1700 repairs and rental car costs. The Toyota dealer told Haggerty that the vehicle’s computer had stored no error codes and they were unsure whether the repairs would fix the vehicle."
http://www.safetyresearch.net/wp-
Toyota repair work
content/uploads/Haggerty_Invoice.jpg
Haggerty testified at hearing. You can watch his testimony
at hearing on website. Link at bottom of article
________________
Brian Blackman and Rosemary Moran, Powell River, British Columbia, Canada
"Blackman and Moran owned a low-mileage, five-week-old 2010 RAV4. On Nov. 11th, Brian Blackman phoned his wife, Rosemary and reported: “Something terrible just happened.” Blackman was driving into the driveway, and was almost stopped and ready to put the car into park, when the RAV4 took off. Blackman put his foot on the brake, but the vehicle continued to accelerate. Blackman slammed the vehicle into Park and the vehicle stopped, but the engine continued to race. He pressed the stop/ start button and finally, the engine quit. The incident occurred in a matter of 4-5 seconds, but the experience really shook him up. He realized that had he not reacted, he would have crashed into the deck of their home. After the incident, the couple turned to the dealer, Rice Toyota of Vancouver Island, for a refund.
Toyota Response: Three engineers came to inspect the vehicle, and after two days, the couple got a call from Toyota Canada would buy back the vehicle. On Nov. 22, Blackman said that he signed the vehicle over to Toyota and was told that the vehicle was going to Japan or California for further analysis.
Rosemary Moran said via e-mail : “Toyota gave us all our money back, (over $40,000 Canadian). They have never said why we were given our money back. They said they couldn’t find anything wrong with our car, but took it away to examine it and they said that they would get back to us when they found out what the problem was. We have not heard one word.”
________________________
Michael Teston, Maaumelle, AR
"Michael Teston was driving into a small town in his 2006 4Runner with the cruise control on. He reports tapping the brakes to disengage the cruise, the cruise control then disengaged and the vehicle began to slow. Teston coasted with his foot on the brake as he approached a parking lot for a convenience store. He turned into parking lot at approximately 15 mph, still coasting with his foot on brake. As his speed reduced to approximately 3 to 5 mph, Mr. Teston reports that he heard the ABS brakes activating followed by clicking sound when the engine raced to full-throttle. The vehicle surged forward and hit a pole approximately three feet in front of him. Once the vehicle impacted the pole, the rear of the vehicle began hopping as the rear tires continued to spin. Mr. Teston placed the vehicle into Park and the engine maintained wide-open-throttle until the ignition was turned off. There were two witnesses to the event. Mr. Teston’s vehicle was fitted with OE carpeted floor mats that were in place and secured."
"North Point Toyota in North Little Rock inspected Michael Teston’s vehicle, holding it for three weeks. The dealer determined that there was nothing wrong with the vehicle. A Toyota Technical Specialist examined the vehicle on January 4, 2010. In a letter to Mr. Teston dated February 3, 2010, from Gulf States Toyota, Inc., the company noted that during the inspection, the driver’s floor mat was in place and properly secured and there were “no codes stored in the computer to indicate any product concern or failure.” However, the letter went on to state: “Our Technical Specialist noted that aftermarket pedal covers were installed on the brake and accelerator pedals that increased the length of the pedals, which could have contributed to the accident described.”
Mr. Teston purchased the “aftermarket pedal covers” from a Toyota dealer as a Toyota accessory and these parts were installed by the Toyota dealer."
Click below to see Toyota’s response letter and an enlarged photo of the pedals.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/wp-content/uploads/Teston_ltr.jpg
http://www.safetyresearch.net/wp-content/uploads/Teston_photo.jpg
Here is website w articles
http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudden-unintended-acceleration/toyota-sua-r- eal-stories/
http://www.safetyresearch.net/wp-content/uploads/Haggerty_Invoice.jpg
http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.338d64bcebefdfd24ec86e10dba046a0- /;jsessionid=TJRMLkfJV2R3pLrCcpVpY0VTb40F8QBpMyXhBJvGmmdSv9TxTZSy!-1223537485
This is the NHTSA Working group 2001 - evaluating EDR
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Articles/EDR/PDF/Research/EDR- S-Summary_of_findings.pdf
I just posted some people relating their SUA/UA incidents with links provided. Seems like the only way anyone can get answers maybe with a SUA/UA incident is if witnesses, proving by actually presenting auto while in SUA/UA state at dealship, etc. This may be all auto manufacturers.
I saw another one where a 77 yo 120+lb lady had SUA/UA - Was parking & vehicle took off - crashed into building. EMT ambulance crew found her pinned with both feet on brakes. Toyota claimed she had forcefully bended accelerator pedal? Question - does 77 yo 120+ old lady have that much forceful strength? Attorney and her son were present during Toyota tech investigation and they did not see any bending of pedal. Toyota never spoke with ambulance EMT's or witnesses. Toyota tech had no computer or readouts. Lady dies few days later. No law suit.
Some are dirver eror, etc., but does seem real SUA/UA does exist. If anyone has one - hope you have a witness/es.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Haggerty presented auto to manager of dealership in full blown SUA/UA . Had been in complaining of in the past. Repair document is in following post to see what was replaced.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1133527&icid=autos_135- 4>1=22017
You have to wonder at what point will they finally let out all of the information and research they've done (not just the information they deem "appropriate")?
It has to happen eventually. I've always felt the sooner the better...for at least their customers. They deserve that.
These cases keep piling up. I want to see another inquiry as to the progress Toyota has made in indentifying (if they haven't already) ALL the issues. And, what the possible fixes are (instead of the pedal shim/pedal shave/floormat stuff).
That last incident on your post really gave me the chills.Toyota is refusing to back their product,that is clear.
In those vehicles described in their posts,they all shifted into neutral which is easy on a mechanical gear shift.Not so easy on a Prius if there is an electronic problem.Should I get rid of my 2007 Prius at any cost,or just take my chances on the odds being in my favor.
He got the car to the nearest Toyota dealer by shifting between "Drive" and "Neutral". Dealership replaced the throttle body, but still couldn't rule out that it could happen again, as they didn't think that was the cause (even though that's all Toyota authorized them to fix).
The replacement parts for Haggerty's auto are key factors for everyone to consider carefully. This is where electronics exist and how engine is told to respond by the computer sensors in these parts.
This is area Dr. Dave Gilbert did his study and presented his findings and gave testimoney at hearings. Since then Toyota has refuted his findings in their highly televised/publicized webcast.
James Sikes and His Toyota Prius Acceleration Problem: Too Much Hollywood Script?
Article Submitted by: JRodgers
A couple of weeks ago, I wrote an article on BestCashCow that Toyota is entering a death spiral. I continue to think that Toyota's problems are real and are just beginning. Their refusal to address the sudden acceleration issue as an electronics problem - instead opting to satiate customers by moving the pedals around - is doing dramatic damage to the brand from which the company will never recover. To boot, Toyota was, as I predicted, poorly prepared in front of Congress two weeks ago. I drive a Lexus. My next car will be an Infiniti.
Putting the marketing damage aside, I am amazed by the parallels between this case and the Ford Pinto cases in the 1970s which led to the development of product liability tort law in the US. We give large product liability awards in the US in order to stop manufucturers from putting low values on human lives and producing products that may kill people. That gets manufacturers to fix problems rather than than treat them as inconsequential. A couple of large awards will take down Toyota. I am short Toyota stock and long very long-dated Toyota puts.
But this situation two nights ago with James Sikes and his Prius is really bugging me. It seems like the guy is piling on to a news story. He was too prepared to go straight to the media. He called 911 before trying to pull the emergency brake. Sikes, according to published reports, is a 61-year old real estate executive and longtime lottery player who won $55,000 and was selected in 2006 to appear on a California Lottery TV game show. This smells to me like a washed up Californian angling to be a plaintiff in a lawsuit or to be on the Amazing Race 18.
If it happened in Iowa or Kansas maybe I'd believe it, but these days anything coming out of California just seems scripted for Hollywood.
Nevermind that Toyota's own factory documentation indicates that their firmware is specifically designed to detect this "rarely occuring" failure and therefore should have detected Dr. Gilbert's "flaw" and sat an MIL accordingly.
"...improper programming.." gets the blame once again.
And you may just find that this SUA flaw is incorporated in each and every vehicle wherein NipponDenso, Denso US, is the primary firmware resource.
I do have an idea that the NHTSA is hesitant to get too aggressive with the automakers on DBW, as it is the heart of many of their mandates on stability, braking and traction control.
My '92 LS400 has has dual throttle plates to facilate traction control. My '01 F/awd RX300 uses fuel cut via EFI control for VSC/TC.
Not that DBW overall isn't a good thing, no idle air bypass valve, no separate cruise control actuator, etc. Just needs a few finishing touches, like say an independent foolproof/failsafe BTO.
http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/05-0271-W.pdf
I am a bit surprised that I see no real interest in this fact from either yours or my post. How could Toyota possibly infer that 150ms worth of data could indicate that Sikes alternated between gas/brake presses 250 times? If the EDR recorded 250 such actions in that short amount of time, it was not performed by a human regardless of questions about his character.
To me it seems highly improbable that the computer memory could have somehow been accessed in a way that you could define that the brake was applied 250 times during the actual 22-30 minutes of the event. That would imply a time/date code attached to each and every recorded event.
22-30 minutes of recording, exact time of day specific recording...?
No way...!!