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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2010
    Well, that's a big part of Sean Kane's business - support services for trial lawyers. (He runs the outfit that Dr. Gilbert took his accelerator part to when Toyota wouldn't talk to him).

    SRS
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It will probably be a while before the police report comes out. It does not sound like someone speeding on purpose. Can't blame it on old age. Doesn't sound like a death wish or a scam artist. Wonder what the explanation by Toyota will be.

    Dawna Gillis Casey, 33, had carefully strapped her two young children into car seats in the back of her new 2010 Toyota Highlander sport utility vehicle

    It was 8 a.m. and she was driving to her job at a local church where she teaches two-year-olds, but witnesses said Casey was driving fast erratically, and passing other cars in the eastbound lanes of North Tarrant Parkway when and she lost control.

    She swerved into the median and then back across to the right shoulder at a speed estimated between 50 and 60 mph.

    "Kind of corrected itself, and I thought maybe she'd be okay," said Kellie Mayhew. All of a sudden, it just started going fast again."

    The vehicle struck a concrete culvert and rocketed into the air.

    "Kinda looked like something out of a movie," said Mayhew, who manages a nearby apartment complex. "Flipped about five times and landed on its side."

    The mangled SUV ended up about 60 yards from the roadway. Dawna Casey was killed.

    "Everybody was rocking the vehicle and trying to get ... the mother out of the vehicle. They were pulling the babies out of the back when I got up there," Mayhew said.

    http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/High-speed-Toyota-crash-in-Fort-Worth-leaves- -mom-dead-92510704.html
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited July 2010
    hate ta say it Toyota fans but here we go again. Another Toyota vehicle out of control and another person killed as a result of a sped up vehicle rocketing all over the freeway.

    And this is normal to you guys, eh? We are to shut our eyes and go follow Mel Gibson and his latest tirade instead, huh? Or, root for Lindsay Lohan's welfare in her faux-rehab luxo-retreat just before she starts serving jail time. Nah, those stories are too pedestrian. Actors are notorious screwups at real life issues. Everyone knows that.

    But Toyota was the "safe" car manufacturer. They're not used to being the ones under the microscope. For years on the net we've all endured the put-downs of Hyundai and Kia and name your underdog car manufacturer. Toyota is the "safe" car to buy. It will be a safe and reliable transaction for you, because if you don't like it you can always trade your Toyota in for pert-near what you bought it for originally!

    See why this is a story of automotive interest...still? Course it is. :shades:

    Oops. Should've popped one of these in...I suppose. :sick:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Y'all need to just chill a sec.

    Not EVERY Toyota crash can automagically be blamed on SUA.

    Good Lordy..... :mad:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Did I say anything about SUA? I think you assumed the accident was caused by SUA. Which makes sense with the unsolved cases pending.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    One of my wife's friends backed into the neighbor's garage last Saturday. It was not a Toyota and it was not UA.She put her foot on the gas pedal,instead of the brake.I'm sure you get my point.
    My Prius has not experienced any issue at all, after almost 50,000 miles,most by a previous owner,but the car has never been in an accident.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    Okay, I googled and read some news stories on the mom and her 2 children and read some of the comments from people who knew her.

    They said that her epilepsy was the mild kind and that she wasn't the kind of person to text while driving.

    I was initially thinking stroke or heart attack or severe allergic reaction, but it could be something else.

    John
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "Did I say anything about SUA?"

    Ahem: Gary, this is posted in the "Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall" forum.

    If you did not intend to bring SUA into the discussion, why post it here?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    If you know of, have read, the witness reports for the earlier actions of the Saylor vehicle then this one sounds ALL too familiar.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    "then this one sounds ALL too familiar"

    Saylor had a seizure disorder too? I didn't know.

    John
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Where would you suggest I post a Toyota accident that looks mighty suspicious? Most of the posters here are in denial concerning any kind of electronic failures with Toyota. Even though most will admit their Toyota electronics are less than up to standard. Surging at a stop is not a good selling point. I don't recall the Toyota salesman saying be sure and keep your foot on the brake when at a stoplight or you may ram the person in front of you. It may be common sense to do that and I do. It is still a defective design by Toyota. So now we have another possible Saylor situation and you don't want to hear about it. Hmmmmm
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Pretty far fetched I would say. Don't you think the brother-in-law would have mentioned that when talking to the 911 operator. Having been married to an epileptic it is not something hard to detect. A seizure takes over all muscle control and incapacitates the victim. Sounds like the Toyota spin folks are out in force on this one.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Seizures are nasty beasts. I had two of them back several years back. You are completely unconscious and wake up slowly with someone else telling you what happened.

    Not saying that is what happened here but it's a piece of the story.

    in NJ one seizure immediately suspends your drivers license and a neurologist has to sign off on letting you back on the road. If you have a second within a year it's suspended a year and continues until you go a whole year without one. In Pennsylvania the first one gets you that year off. They're nothing to dismiss lightly,
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited July 2010
    It is very possible that the lady in TX had a seizure. Not the CHP Saylor in CA. And you having suffered know it takes a while to regain any of your faculties. It was scary the first time my wife had one. She was able to control it with medication. You can lose your license and as a teacher my ex-wife could have lost her teaching job. She is now on full disability as a result.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Oh, yeah. The Saylor case is something completely different.

    I was fortunate in that they figured out what caused mine. Actually the second was from a side effect from - of all things - the anti-seizure drug I was on. The root problem was a clotting factor disorder. I'm on coumadin for that.

    Amazingly despite this, a bone marrow problem, a blind eye, arthritis since I was a kid and a host of other issues they haven't seen fit to disable me.

    Waking from a seizure is a pretty surreal experience. For the first one I was in my living room one moment and the next thing I knew I'm looking up at the lights in the ER. For the second one I was in the ER when I had it. Because of tests they'd already done they were going to admit me and at one point I ask my wife what's taking so long and she say because of the seizure they needed to get a space on the neurology floor. I say it's been 13 months since the seizure and she says - no, the one you had tonight. News to me!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    edited July 2010
    By all means, if you are worried enough to find the Edmund's forums, join up, find this particular forum, then make your first, and so far, only post then you are definitely too worried to buy a Toyota.

    Actually you probably should not be driving at all if you are that easily frightened, as I think all the brands have been involved in fatal accidents over the years.

    Oh, and I guess you forgot to mention the epilepsy thing.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • karie23karie23 Member Posts: 2
    WOW...excuse me for not being so emotionally attached to an automotive company so much that I would put my child's life or my own in a vehicle that has been reported to take off like a drunken rocket with us in it on any given day of the week. After coming upon this incident, I personally called Toyota's customer service departmant (got the # from toyota.com) and talked with a man that was brutally honest to my surprise. While he couldn't give me details about any one specific accident, he could legally tell me that YES, in fact they are strill receiving reports of SUA in the 2010 Highlanders from consumers. This was enough for me to get over the suv of my dreams whether it saddens me or not!!! Maybe the chances are slim of it happening to the one that I drive off the lot, but I'm just not willing to take that risk. Maybe these folks will have their act together by the time I buy my next suv.
    Plain and simple...I prayed about buying the most safe and relaible car to transport my family...The next day, this story about the mom in Fort Worth fell in my lap.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    "Most of the posters here are in denial concerning any kind of electronic failures with Toyota. Even though most will admit their Toyota electronics are less than up to standard. Surging at a stop is not a good selling point. "

    - Most are not in denial, you are paranoid or a conspiracy theorist or something..
    - What electronic failures?
    - The electronics in my '06 Avalon are fine as are the ones in my '10 Highlander.
    - None of my Toyotas, going back as far as a new '86 Camry LE and a '94 LE, have surged at a stop.

    In other words, what are you talking about?

    John

    P.S. - Somebody compared the Saylor wreck with the woman dying and said the wrecks were similar. That's why I mentioned her epilepsy - because the poster said they were similar. Jeez, nevermind. Am I typing in English????
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As early as 2002, Toyota warned its dealers through a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) that certain models of its cars could experience engine surging and that an electronic recalibration was necessary to fix the problem. The document appears to fly in the face of recent testimony from Toyota that the company has never found a defect in its electronic throttle control system that has caused unintended acceleration.

    The TSB, issued on August 30, 2002, entitled "ECM Calibration Update: 1 MZ-FE Engine Surging" stated that "Some 2002 model year Camry vehicles equipped with the 1MZ-FE engine may exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38-42 MPH with lock-up (l/U) 'ON.' The engine control module (ECM) calibration has been revised to correct this condition."

    While the report was brought to light by Congressman Bart Stupak, D-Mich., prior to the U.S. House Energy Subcommittee on Oversight in late February and first reported on by Automotive News, the actual document had not circulated until this week. CNN began circulating the TSB on its website and through a new report which aired on the channel last night.

    http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-throttle-warning-2002/

    For those in denial about Toyota surging try this google search, it has 4.46 Million links.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+surging+problem&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&cli- ent=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGIC_en___US345

    PS
    My 2007 Sequoia surges forward when stopped, it I don't keep a firm foot on the brakes.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary's link says, "The document appears to fly in the face of recent testimony from Toyota that the company has never found a defect in its electronic throttle control system that has caused unintended acceleration."

    "surge" and "unintended acceleration" are completely different animals.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Apparently not to Gary. I have owned numerous vehicles that would ease forward when idling if the ac compressor cycled. I certainly don't remember having to jam on the brakes to prevent any of them from rocketing forward as Gary claims. He has been known to exaggerate just a tad from time to time. You can google most anything and get quite a few hits.

    Looking more and more like driver error and/or outright attempted scams. Sorry folks, looks like you will have to get an honest job because that big payday courtesy of Toyota just is not going to happen. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited July 2010
    Sorry folks, looks like you will have to get an honest job because that big payday courtesy of Toyota just is not going to happen.

    Aw C'mon, that is the new American way. Take from the Haves and give to the Have Nots.

    I did not make much of the way my Sequoia EASES forward as the AC cycles until I bought this 2008 Nissan Frontier. The AC kicks in seamlessly with no rise in RPM. Toyota needs to go back to the drawing board. It may not be a big thing, they all add up to a less sophisticated driving experience. I love that Nissan V6 PU. I have only driven the Sequoia once since April when I bought the PU truck. I hated my Ford Ranger V6 PU truck. It was gutless. This V6 PU will run circles around the V8 in my Sequoia. Without surging when sitting at idle.

    PS
    I was responding to a Toyota is perfect in every way post. Which does get me going.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I have two Lexus vehicles that also don't have any surging issues. I love those Frontier pick ups and would get one if I could possibly justify it. Glad you like yours.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I bought a new Datsun PU in 1970 and loved it as well. Then bought a 1976 Datsun PU that was a POC. So this is the first shot I have given Nissan since 1976. They have done a fine job on that drive train. This truck is head and shoulders above my buddies 2007 Tacoma.

    Our 1990 LS400 does not surge either. It still runs like a Swiss watch. I wish it would break so I could justify another vehicle to take its place in the garage. It would not be a Lexus or Toyota. Nor a Honda. Not sure what I would replace it with.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2010
    One in a series:

    "In response to recent quality issues/recalls, Toyota has dispatched its Swift Market Analysis Response Team (SMARTs) to follow up on approximately 3,600 complaints. What was once a five-minute phone call is now two technicians sent, within 72 hours -- and often in 24 hours or less -- to investigate a report. No mysterious unintended acceleration issues have been found as a result of SMART investigations, though the well-publicized floor-mat and pedal issues have been confirmed, Toyota said. Many of the alleged unintended acceleration incidents are different issues altogether, such as an idle-up when the air conditioning is running, Toyota said. Toyota adamantly said SMART investigators found no defects in its Electronic Throttle Control System with Intelligence (ETCS-i)."

    Toyota Safety and Quality Seminar. (Edmunds Daily)

    More:

    Toyota Safety and Quality Seminar: Day Two

    Toyota Safety and Quality Seminar: Day Three

    Toyota Safety and Quality Seminar: Q&A with Akio Toyoda
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Many of the alleged unintended acceleration incidents are different issues altogether, such as an idle-up when the air conditioning is running, Toyota said.

    Does Toyota plan to fix that in its vehicles or just continue to tell their customers " that is the way it was poorly engineered"?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They could shut down the AC at idle. That'll help sell a lot of cars in Boise and Phoenix. :)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited July 2010
    Surging at a stop is not a good selling point. I don't recall the Toyota salesman saying be sure and keep your foot on the brake when at a stoplight or you may ram the person in front of you. It may be common sense to do that and I do. It is still a defective design by Toyota.

    And I respect that a lot more than these Toyota churchboys who still, after all the engine sludge, SUA and idle-surge slop and cover-up, won't admit that their Toyota's were and are poorly designed.

    It recalls Captain Smith's attitude about the Titanic, the poor Schlumpf was a respected large ship captain from Europe. Lots and lots of experience he had gained and in fact he was going to retire upon docking at NYC harbor. Incredible.

    "Captain, what do you make of all the reports of icebergs all over the North Atlantic, well in our path?"

    "No problem, no problem at all. In fact, I've ordered the last two boilers be lit. We're speeding up!"

    He said it with complete and utter glee in his voice. That man could've thrown one hell of a party in NYC upon arriving. Instead he sadly had ta go down with the once glorious ocean liner Titanic, sunk on her first voyage!

    It's the poster child for being cautious and opening your ears up ta even possible reports of danger. If you were warned of a tornado in the mid-Missouri Ozarks, would you laugh at The Weather Channel? I wouldn't. Not for a second.

    Similarly, there's something awry going on with Toyota automobile nerve-center electronics.

    You Toyota Captain Smith's are drinking way too much Toyota Kool-Aide. Is it blue raspberry? Or tantalizing lemon? :lemon:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    edited July 2010
    And many others are drinking too much of that Chicken Little Kool-Aide. All this panic stricken "sky is falling" rhetoric and hysteria is very tiresome. Continuing to yell electronic issues in the face of all evidence to the contrary only hurts their credibility and brings into question their real motives.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Titanic? Ah my favorite movie, but a terrible analogy.All cars will roll forward if they are in D when you stop.Of course you keep your foot on the brake.With a manual,it's different,as long as your clutch is in.I have a 2007 Prius, and have never experienced any of the problems everyone is panicking about.I see no ice in the road ahead,none at all,and the weather channel does not predict any SUA.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    Sticking with facts and not personalities...

    >Continuing to yell electronic issues in the face of all evidence to the contrary

    Is that the "no evidence therefore it doesn't exist" theory? Remember the chemicals that can kill a person and be virtually undectable (at least on CSI type shows)? That means a person dies at the hands of another (car dies at the hands of its computer failure) and we call it suicide because "there's no evidence of a murder."

    LOL.

    >only hurts their credibility and brings into question their real motives.

    Yes indeed it does. They need to realize there is potentially something wrong in their electronics that DOES NOT leave a record on their apparently mimimal data recording system (which only one computer can read in the USA). All the blasting at anyone daring be scientific and analytical about what's being said is really reminiscent of the oil sludge era, and I'm not talking about the fiasco in the Gulf.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    edited July 2010
    Is that the "no evidence therefore it doesn't exist" theory?

    No, not at all. It is the computer evidence, as reported in the Wall Street Journal, that shows that in every alleged SUA incident, the computer shows that the driver had his foot on the gas pedal and not the brake pedal. Not one person who is involved in the investigation has denied the report. End of story.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..every alleged..."

    NOT...!!

    "...the computer shows..."

    COMPUTERS LIE...!!

    Ask me how I know.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    edited July 2010
    >shows that the driver had his foot on the gas pedal and not the brake pedal.

    There's the break in logic. The computer may show but that doesn't mean the foot was actually on the pedal and it may not mean the foot was NOT on the brake pedal. REmember we're dealing with a flaky, minimal computer system here.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    There's the break in logic. The computer may show but that doesn't mean the foot was actually on the pedal and it may not mean the foot was NOT on the brake pedal. REmember we're dealing with a flaking, minimal computer system here.

    I think that reply pretty much typifies the hysterical irrationality that Toyota is forced to try and deal with. Amazing.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    edited July 2010
    >I think that reply pretty much typifies the hysterical irrationality that Toyota is forced to try and deal with. Amazing.

    That's a nonresponse from the toyotaphiles worthy of being ignored. Now which part is wrong? Does their box have superpowers that it cannot mistake and think the foot is on the accelerator? That's the whole point of the errors in the electronics.

    Remember the Audi's cruise control thought it was supposed to be accelerating.

    And the computer system was able to only store a short period of time's record, right or wrong, and then there was only one reader, toyota only could use it, that was in this country. With all the cars they were trying to peddle here, wouldn't they at least have analysis capability for their flakey computer systems?

    >I think that reply pretty much typifies the hysterical irrationality that Toyota is forced to try and deal with. Amazing.

    It's absolutely appalling the deficient analysis on the part of some. If toyoda says it, it must be true.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You should admit that Toyota has brought this on themselves with their secretive handling of the EDR information in the Saylor accident. First they could not read more than 3 seconds prior to an accident when the EDR saved the data. The next thing we know Toyota is saying according to the EDR Sikes hit the brakes 250 times. Then it was while the Prius was at WOT. At the same time they are telling us that a Prius will go to idle if the brake is hit when the car is at WOT. So how can you believe anything that company tells US? And how would we be able to tell if there is an electronic fault when the car does not record in the diagnostics when there is a WOT? Somebodies lying and I say it is Toyota.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, have you considered that MAYBE they are "not lying" but just "do not KNOW" and are giving themselves the deserved benefit of the doubt until something is actually discovered that indicates the cause of the problem?

    Why do they have to be "lying?" Can't they just be "hedging" until the facts are really known?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We know for a fact that Toyota was caught lying during the Congressional hearings. So why should I give them the benefit of the doubt? I am not saying they know there is a problem in the electronics that causes SUA. I am saying they keep changing their story and trying to discredit anyone with an idea or a problem relating to SUA. If there is not a cover-up it sure looks bad for Toyota. They have been caught too many times here and in their own country trying to cover problems they should have been fixing. That makes people that are skeptical by nature, question everything Toyota does.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited July 2010
    and it even makes people that are not even at all really sceptical by nature question Toyota and their honesty and motives, too. They're definitely backpedaling and they know it. You Toyota Kool-Aide inbibers are blindly drunk on them but they know they're in for a dogfight they've not yet seen in Japan.

    Look at it this way, if they all of a sudden discovered a "flash" they could pop in to the ECU software and it could be proven that it will stop this 4-1 industry-leading SUA problem for sure, wouldn't we all pop open a bottle of vintage champagne and know that those who insist on driving Toyota products could go get the flashware done at their dealer and be safe once again?

    And we could go back to worrying about Lindsay Lohan and her addictions...I...I mean her problems at attempting to live a "normal" life, free from paparazzi and all those pesty people who pretend to love her but only want to see her struggle. Does it remind you of Britney Spears' life at all? Or, was Mel Gibson's ex-GF trying to extort (big hush fills the electronic airwaves) money from him. But why? He's such a nice Australian! See what other stories we're stuck with?

    Toyota's is a real story. Only they and their Kool-Aide snorters don't want you to follow it. I wonder-wonder why.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Toyota is not in charge of the investigation so how could they be lying about the results?
    The WSJ article stated that the investigation showed that every edr checked so far showed that the gas was floored and the brakes were not engaged. There may be some question as to who gave the results to the WSJ but no one has has denied the results.

    All the strident cries of Toyota is lying is just a weak attempt to deflect the facts.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here is my take on the EDR question. During the Saylor investigation Toyota claimed the EDR only stored the last 2-3 seconds prior to a crash. Don't ask me how. So how do they know all these NON accident reports are people hitting the gas instead of the brakes. Such as Sikes and him supposedly hitting his brakes 250 times. Something is fishy and I suspect Toyota PR people to be at the bottom of it. Toyota obviously think we are highly Stupid in the USA. And some of that is understandable. I just don't think they realize how their deception can be rooted out and used against them.

    You may be right that it is a deflection. UA may only be floor mats and throttle pedals. And of course the Avalon brought into the dealer with WOT. Do you think Toyota was honest about what was replaced in that Avalon? I have not heard another peep out of that fellow. Did he get handsomely paid off to shut up? Same goes for the supposed person that drove the Lexus and had a stuck floor mat prior to Saylor getting it.

    It really is no skin off my nose one way or the other. My Sequoia will do what it is going to do and I don't have one of those flaky push button ignition switches thankfully. I am confident I can overcome any problem with UA. The vehicle is not that fast at accelerating. It is actually somewhat of a pig 0-60 mph.
  • biebie Member Posts: 1
    Really? Which one is that? Can you post photos of your cars?
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    I would like to see all folks on this forum post pictures of their cars. We could quickly see that the most avid "Toyota bashers" are not (surprise) Toyota owners.

    I'm not sure why the GM, Ford, and Mitsibushi owners find it necessary to rant at length on this forum...........maybe their forums are too crowded?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, " So why should I give them the benefit of the doubt?"

    We've gone over this BEFORE, Gary.

    Just because someone lies once, does not make them a "forever liar" and make everything they EVER say again a Lie.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    So how do they know all these NON accident reports are people hitting the gas instead of the brakes.

    I will give it one more try. It is not Toyota or Toyota's PR people who are doing the investigation. It is NHTSA and NASA, so if anyone is lying about the results it is these folks, not Toyota. NHTSA and NASA have secret ways to figure this out, and besides, they are so smart that they know everything anyway !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Sorry, my cars are so expensive I would have to charge you for a photograph. Plus I would not want their pics floating around on the internet.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That was a strange request for sure.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..not Toyota or Toyota's PR people..."

    But you can bet good money that the PR people are earning their money, doing everything they can to "muddy the water".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2010
    I have pics of my cars posted. Even my '82 Toyota that I drove for 17 years. :)

    CarSpace will host them for you for free.
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