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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I hope Toyota will handle brake overrride system installation well. Sadly, my vehicle is not in the recall. I will be investigating if a possible brake override system flash will be available though.

    Guess we must all wait a little while longer for any news of what Toyota will be doing.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, by all appearances from articles CTS pedal does look to be the superior product. Denso product appears cheaply made. But then my personal opinion is just a nonprofessional opinion/observation.

    Yeah - I do like this brake override. Safety should always be top priority here. With these particular complaints - more dangerous risks exist when unexplained increased acceleration situation develops. My feelings are human error exists/will always exist and should always be factored in when reviewing need to install auto safety systems.

    And I know Toyota has some fail safe systems already, but still needs this final last brake overrride when these present systems might develop a slight bug/glitz. It does appear these systems are rebooting back into normal mode once incidents over, and with no trace left bug/glitz occurred apparently.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    an possible ongoing problem evident with regard to brake override is that the older models are not capable of implementing the brake-override-reflash due to hardware limitations. Possibly the missing h/w is 'brake-booster'? Not sure - since other manufacturers accomplish brake-override without necessariyl having 'brake booster' available.

    IMHO Toyota has not tried to cover up anything since last fall at least. To the contrary - they have released very detailed info allowing objective auto geeks to come to correct conclusions by reading all the press releases.

    In the semantic dept, both the pedal change and floormat change strike me as what software people call HACKS. But sometimes that's exactly what is called for. Unfortunately, time will tell, and we must wait for more disasters to occur or not occur.

    In the analogy department, this brings to mind Schrodinger's Cat paradox which may actually apply precisely here.
    With each Toyota customer being the Schrodinger-Cat each time they drive an unfixed-model?
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Good reading, if it's one thing I've learned in almost 30 years in the computer field, you can never have enough fail safe redundant systems. I'm really surprised that all drive by wire systems don't have the brake over ride. Heck, it's almost there with the cruise control being shut off when hitting the brakes.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Does Toyota's Problem Go Beyond Pedals?

    But some industry analysts and safety advocates say the problem is bigger than a pedal. They note that the federal government has done eight investigations of sudden, unexplained acceleration in Toyotas over the last seven years and none identified a stuck gas pedal as a potential cause.

    They point to Toyota's onboard electronics - the sensors and microprocessors that control the car's throttle - which they say could be sending the wrong and potentially lethal signals.

    "It is a multi-faceted problem that has multiple root causes, which is why we anticipate that this problem is going to continue even after these accelerator pedals have been replaced," said Sean Kane of the company Safety Research and Strategies.
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    Question why are Lexus and Scion cars not effected is it because the peddles on those automobiles come from a differant supplier. Maybe just maybe CTS is scared I dont want to think outside the box or cast doubt in anyone that has made up there mind.

    MNF
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    Not all recalled Toyota cars have CTS peddles.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Local paper today has an article about how an area dealer is going to do the fix for the pedals. It has two pictures showing where the shim is going to be placed, but I can't find the graphics on the web to add to the post. The article was an ad for the local dealer essentially--a wonderful PR piece. It even claimed toyota voluntarily stopped selling.

    I believe most owners would prefer to have a whole new, properly-manufactured gas pedal assembly instead of having a shim added to their old defective one. :sick:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855
    Interesting read here (especially first post);

    Oparr, thanks for the link to BMW forums. link title

    I'm in and on my way to hearing all about the 5 Series.

    Can't wait to get out of this Avalon so I can safely drive again.

    Dave

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is about time for the NHTSA to be proactive on this issue. From the article I would say they spend more time worried about people grabbing a hot tail pipe on a Mini Cooper S, than people dying from SUA. An easier target to hit for that bunch of tax wasting bureaucrats.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    "Each and every one of those 737 hydraulic servo valves, rudder control valves, was of flawed design. It was only after the third incident/crash, out of how many flights, that Boeing had enough evidence to know where to begin looking."

    Which sort of supports my conclusion that there isn't one simple flaw with Toyotas or they would have found it after the 3rd crash or so as in your example. They do have some really good engineers at Toyota you know. Since they aren't finding one single source of the problem I keep returning to driver error in addition to a stuck mat here, a stuck pedal there and even one or more electronics glitches. Next we'll have people (me?) using UA as an excuse to have a speeding ticket dismissed. ":Your Honor, Toyota did it, not me." :)

    A driver must be prepared for the unexpected because motor vehicles have always had malfunctions/breakages, etc.

    I don't want a brake override, I know where the shifter is. There are places I need to hold the vehicle on a steep hill while reving the engine a little before moving the boat trailer.

    And I don't think I want Toyota messing with my '06 Avalon. The pedal clears the mat and the gas pedal has worked just fine for 46,000 miles.

    John
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    people have been driving vehicles without brake override, SAFELY, for decades.

    I don't know what the root cause is but I have to imagine that incompetent drivers is one of them. Installing zillions of gizmos in a car without focusing also on driver education will only result more problems for the driving public down the road.
  • hoyafanhoyafan Member Posts: 48
    I'm not close enough to understand the various arguments and timetable, but Jalopnik outlines that Jim Lentz "lied" in his interview.

    http://jalopnik.com/5461734/how-toyotas-president-lied-to-matt-lauer
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >NHTSA to be proactive on this issue

    Remember that in one of the news articles earlier in the forum, toyota had employed someone who, conveniently, was a part muckity-muck at NHSTA, so he knew how to dribble information, how to arrange the grouping for reporting, etc., to avoid raising big flags at NHSTA. He also served as a good lobbyist. Name was Sacutti or something similar.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    millwood0, who has been driving which cars without brake-override, other than the recent toyotas?
    in my experience, 100% of non-toyota cars from 1970s until today all have "brake override" functionality in that the brakes were always stronger than the engine/drivetrain even with accelerator floored.
  • hoyafanhoyafan Member Posts: 48
    Can someone tell me? I understand Germany premium cars have it and Toyota, GM, Ford, etc. do not.

    What is it? Software, mechanical?
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    The news that Toyota Motor Corp. is recalling eight models on top of an earlier recall it expanded last week to more than 5 million vehicles over concerns about sudden acceleration has some people putting the brakes on plans to sell or trade their used Toyotas.

    Even James Bell, an executive market analyst with Kelley Blue Book, the outfit that sets prices for new and used cars, is having trouble moving his used Prius hybrid, normally a very popular model. "It just has the floor mat issue, but I'm not getting a lot of bites on it," Bell said.

    If you're trying to move out of one of the troubled Toyotas, you may not have any choice: Some dealers just flat won't take the cars in trade until the problems are cleared up. For those trying to trade or sell, the best bet may be just to wait as little as another week or two to see how quickly the recall issues can be fixed.

    Planning to buy or sell a Toyota? Be prepared
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    As I understand it, when I take my 2007 Avalon in for the "shim fix",it will involve pedal disassembly and adding a shim somewhere.
    Then the pedal will be put in a VISE, and the corners of the pedal will be GROUND OFF for the "floor mat fix" (Which doesn't exist in my vehicle with properly secured factory carpet mats).
    Then the carpet will be PULLED UP and some piece of insulation will be removed to make the carpet lower in the area of the accelerator.

    I have no floor mat or accelerator pedal issues with my vehicle, and I'm not sure I want to subject it to exploratory surgery at the dealership!.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    (AP) — c ()-2010, The Washington Post
    The brake override systems allow a driver to stop a car with the footbrake even if the accelerator is depressed and the vehicle is running at full throttle. The systems are an outgrowth of new electronics in cars, specifically in engine control.

    "If the brake and the accelerator are in an argument, the brake wins," a spokesman at Chrysler said in describing the systems, which it began installing in 2003.

    Volkswagen, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz also install such systems in at least some of their cars, the companies and industry experts said, some as far back as 10 years ago. General Motors installs brake override in all of its cars in which it is possible for the engine at full throttle to overwhelm the brakes.

    "Most other automakers have adopted this technology," said Sean Kane, a former researcher at the Center for Auto Safety who now works at Safety Research and Strategies. Not adding the systems "is one of the mistakes that created this perfect storm for Toyota."


    My understanding is Nissan also has brake over-ride. It looks like Toyota and Ford are the late adopters. And they got the worst press from CR as a result.
  • greennovicegreennovice Member Posts: 3
    We ordered a 2010 Prius and the day before we were to pick it up the recall announcement was made. We were so relieved that the Prius was not on the list. But the morning we were to pick it up we saw a report of a Prius owner experiencing the unintended acceleration problem in 2006 and of course that caused us serious concern. We began researching right away.

    We learned that there have been 21 vehicle acceleration complaints about the 2010 Prius that have been reported to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. We think most may have to do with the dual brake systems and the weird felling that occurs when you hit a pothole or man hole cover and the brake shifts to the ABS system. But other reports are not that easily explained. We read the FAQ page on Toyota's website and called the Toyota Customer Service number to ask a specific question -- Why did Toyota conclude that the Prius does not have an acceleration problem and should not be included on the recall or sales/manufacturing freeze? We did not get a direct answer, but rather the person just reiterated what was on the FAQ page, i.e. that Toyota is confident that all affected models have been identified and other models are not affected. I also spoke with someone at the NHTSA, but the person could not answer my question directly either. That really didn't reassure us.

    From our research it appears there have been three separate possible causes identified concerning the unwanted acceleration problem -- 1) pedal entrapment caused by floor mats; a sticking pedal caused by mechanical problems with the pedal itself; and 3) electronic or computer program malfunctions. We are not concerned about the floor mat issue. With respect to the pedal, it is our understanding that the Prius does not have the same pedal as the models Toyota has identified as having the problem. We think this is probably why Toyota decided not to include the Prius among the affected models.

    This would have alleviated our concerns, except for the fact that the problem has been reported by Prius owners. When I asked the Toyota person about the possibility of an electronic or computer problem, she offered no response. When I asked the person at NHTSA, he said both the pedal and the electronic/computer systems are being investigated. When I asked him when they might have an answer, his response was that they would know when they got a report from Toyota. However, from my call with Toyota it appears that Toyota has concluded that the problem is caused by the pedal and is not investigating the electronic/computer issue.

    In a nutshell, our concern is that there may, in fact, be a problem with the electronic or computer system that affects the Prius. From what we've read/seen, it sounds like the fix for such a problem is an override whereby applying the brake cuts off the accelerator. We have been told by the dealer that the 2010 Prius has such an override, but it is not referenced in any written materials the dealer can show us. But assuming it has the brake override, is that sufficient to make the car safe from unwanted acceleration problems? We're not engineers, so we can only rely on Toyota or others to help us evaluate this.

    The bottom line is that we really want to buy the car. When we picked the Prius after a month of research and shopping we really didn't have a second choice. And we got 3.65% financing that won't last indefinitely. The question is -- should we buy the Prius or would we be stupid to do so in light of the uncertainty about the electronic/computer system? We need to make our decision and every time we decide to go ahead with our purchase, another anecdotal report comes out. This morning it was that the owner of a Sienna, another model not included, was killed in an unintended acceleration crash.

    Help -- any thoughts are appreciated.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "millwood0, who has been driving which cars without brake-override, other than the recent toyotas?"

    the driving public? hundreds of millions of them?

    "in my experience, 100% of non-toyota cars from 1970s until today all have "brake override" functionality in that the brakes were always stronger than the engine/drivetrain even with accelerator floored. "

    yeah, if you define brake override that way (aka a brake strong enough to stop a car even if the accelerator is floored), any car will have it.

    if you define brake override as a mechanism that will deactivate the accelerator if the brake is tap, I can tell you from my personal experience that many of the cars I have had, including a BMW 330, a MB C55 AMG as well, do NOT have it. I routinely braked and accelerated in that BMW and I know that to be a fact.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    a brake override would be a terrible thing to have in a rwd performance sedan (not that the BMW is one). one of the advantages of a rwd car is that you can steer with your accelerator and applying the brake during a turn helps that process. a brake override would instantly kill that ability.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We have some good friends that just traded their 2008 RAV4 on a 2007 Tacoma double cab. They never felt safe in the little RAV4. I thought it was ok the couple times I rode in it. They did not know about the Tacoma recall from last year. I made sure they did not have double mats to interfere with the accelerator. Nice truck and they love it. I think they could have played hard ball if they had known about the recall. They are happy and that is the main thing.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When I asked the Toyota person about the possibility of an electronic or computer problem, she offered no response. When I asked the person at NHTSA, he said both the pedal and the electronic/computer systems are being investigated.

    My advice until you get answers, not the run around, just keep looking. One of the posters claims the 2010 Prius has over-ride installed at the factory. If Toyota reps cannot confirm this, I would be skeptical. Or you could ask the salesman to take you out in a demo model and hold the throttle wide open, then hit the brakes with the throttle held open. If the over ride works, I would feel safe buying the Prius.
  • flxmomflxmom Member Posts: 24
    What model do you have? I have a Sienna and have read about quite a few of the acceleration issues , with crashes, involved in this van..there are also complaints on the Nhtsa site ! So even tho it hasnt been on the recall list it should be and we should be able to get the " override fix" as well !
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So even tho it hasnt been on the recall list it should be and we should be able to get the " override fix" as well !

    Keep pushing your dealer in that direction. Remember it took a tragic accident for Toyota to do anything. You don't want to be the victim.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Help -- any thoughts are appreciated.

    It depends on what your major concerns are. If it is that you're concerned with the safety of the vehicle, then I would say go ahead with your purchase. Even if I had one of the affected vehicles, and even if it did its full blown throttle acceleration, it is still easy to stop the car. As articles have already mentioned, apply firm brake pressure, using 2 feet if needed, put the shifter in neutral, and pull over. I know that your 2010 Prius is not one of the vehicles mentioned, but that doesn't matter, still easy to stop.

    But if you have concerns about resale in general, then you may want to hold off, as that chapter is just starting. Obviously, one of the affected vehicles will take a hit, especially in the short term. But we still don't know about other Toyota vehicles. I have 3 Toyotas in my family in model years 2004-2006, and am concerned if their resale value will be affected by all this.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    I've owned 5 or 6 rear wheel drive performance cars, all GM, from 1985 to 2005.
    (Z28s / GTO). With all of their furious power and torque, the brakes remained stronger than the engine, thus there is no need for an electronic brake-override - because the mechanical override works fine.
    People commonly "brake torque" these cars, sometimes for faster launch, sometimes to intentionally churn the rear tires while remaining stopped, to heat the tires or to impress bystanders :|

    seems like it is only in these modern vehicles where the mechanical-override is not as 'guaranteed' as before, that brake-override electronics would be helpful?
    fwiw, in any car *without* "electronic brake override" , the old-school "mechanical brake override" could fail if the brakes overheated.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The fix is actually coming from a local company here in Grand Rapids, MI ;)

    http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/02/grand_rapids_sprin- g_stamping_s.html

    -Rocky
  • flxmomflxmom Member Posts: 24
    where was this crash with the Sienna? I own an 09! thanks
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "the brakes remained stronger than the engine,"

    my point exactly. Not a single report on those accidents mentioned what the drivers were doing with their brakes.

    "seems like it is only in these modern vehicles where the mechanical-override is not as 'guaranteed' as before, that brake-override electronics would be helpful? "

    if you read Toyota's response, they clearly stated that with the accelerator fully pressed, you CAN stop the car using the brakes alone.

    There is NO engine that I am aware of that can overcome the torque from a functioning brake, those Toyota's included.

    If anyone can find a contrary example, I am all ears.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    One or two pumps and your brakes are done. You have essential zero vacuum at WOT.

    dieselone, "Toyota on the mend for 2010?" #3873, 9 Dec 2009 4:26 pm
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >If anyone can find a contrary example, I am all ears

    Take your car. Find a long uphill slope or wide open area. Apply nearly full throttle in higher gear. Push brake pedal down. Then let up. Then push brake pedal down. Then let up. By the 3rd application you'll notice a big difference due to lack of low air pressure from the intake manifold of the motor when motor is wide open throttle. Each successive application of the pedal will have less assist from the low air pressure. Continue to hold throttle nearly wide open and continue to stop the car.

    Please report back about how it worked.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    millwood0, plenty of the media/nhtsa/etc include reports of the driver pushing the brake pedal as hard as possible. Also I believe post-mortem indicated/surmised that the brakes were either overheated or that brake vacuum was absent, or both.

    your point is well taken about how properly-functioning-brakes can stop any car, essentially. it is in the improper-brake-function-case where the electronic override can apparently be a life-saver.
  • flxmomflxmom Member Posts: 24
    So what does Toyota say to do if the acceleration happens? Most people say they had no brakes , that they just didnt work...I have bee told to go into neutral then apply the brakes by non Toyota folk..
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    yes, flxmom, i understand that your statements are accurate.

    also be ready to turn off the ignition, in case switching to neutral does not disengage the gears. if you do turn off the ignition, be ready to turn it back
    to "on" (without restarting) so that your steering doesn't lock.

    "trust but verify" .
  • oparroparr Member Posts: 74
    Having nothing better to do on my way to work this morning, I decide to count 2002 - 2010 Camrys I saw on a 26 mile south side stretch of the Garden State Parkway in NJ. I counted less than 10.

    Reached work at 9:30 AM (late) and parked on the 8th floor of the parking garage as usual. This is a fairly packed garage, however, I only counted 5 Camrys between 2002-2010 on the "up - side" of the garage.

    Guys, this is scary since I estimate this to be about a fifth of what is normally encountered.
  • flxmomflxmom Member Posts: 24
    I find myself looking for Toyotas as well, dont see too many...I have a Sienna.. :(
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Will the gears disengage with so much rotation TORQUE applied..?? WOT engine DRIVING your front wheels simultaneous with FULL braking.
  • dturrdturr Member Posts: 70
    Is this fix for CTS pedals to be installed on;
    1.Existing customer vehicles.
    2.New cars in stock at dealers.
    3.Cars at the factory that are complete.

    What about vehicles that have not yet been built will they have Desmo, CTS, or piece of metal fix or maybe a new design.

    If I was a potential buyer I would want to know.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    This morning it was that the owner of a Sienna, another model not included, was killed in an unintended acceleration crash.

    Details? Link?
  • oparroparr Member Posts: 74
    I see no reason to park mine. The odds of being wiped out by a drunk or someone texting on a mobile or some other freak accident are much greater IMO.

    Frankly, if it wasn't due to the tragic Lexus incident, most of us probably wouldn't even know there was an issue. If there is any semblance of a silver lining from that then it's probably knowing what to do in the unlikely event it does happen to you.

    Will I be first in line for the recall....Probably not either (he said with crossed fingers and legs while knocking on three types of wood).
  • flxmomflxmom Member Posts: 24
    What does WOT mean?
  • oparroparr Member Posts: 74
    WOT = Wide Open Throttle
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Looks like Toyota tried to explain it, but consumers are having the last word:

    Ford said today car sales rose 43 percent in January
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "Also I believe post-mortem indicated/surmised that the brakes were either overheated or that brake vacuum was absent, or both. "

    If I had a penny for every "belief" others have tried to sell me on, I would be richer than Bill Gates, :)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "A Toyota Sienna driven by a 36-year-old Lucia Camacho from the Buellton area was struck a Chevy Cobalt driven by a Paso Robles resident with three other occupants onboard."

    Paso men injured in Highway 101 car accident (Paso Robles Press)

    Er, the Sienna had SUA. And the Cobalt's steering went wacko.

    Federal safety agency investigates complaints of steering problems with Chevy Cobalt (LA Times)
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