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REALLY?
Ford's lawyers said it was cheaper to let a few people burn up that fix the Pinto. Much worse, unless you have evidence that you have not presented.
Boeing had 737's with rudder problems that killed 100's of people. Airbus may have a pitot problem that crashed a plane over the Atlantic. I'm not apologizing for Toyota, and they have made mistakes -- I'm saying your posts are all out of proportion to the problem, attempting to whip everybody into a frenzy.
How did that slogan go? Quality is Job 1?
No, wrong outfit, it was the one with the tagline..."Suddenly Moving Forward"
Now, the question to that is: was that their slogan when they had exploding Pintos?
True, Ford has issues with the Explorer and then there was the Pinto. The difference is Toyota, not Ford, built the supremacy on quality claiming to be 2nd to none; the arrogant attitude is what this involves. Every other automaker has had their ups and down and no one has ever disputed that, but when it comes to Toyota, many of always viewed it as the god child.
Then it was considered acceptable even when Toyota tried to cover-up these issue for the past 5 years and continued even when all of this broke; it was the driver, it was the supplier, etc.
So what is being missed is the pedestal that Toyota put itself on and too many consumer falling into the same trap. Sure, there will also view that this is not Toyota's fault, they have no responsibility, and it will be the same ones who will only own a Toyota for rest of their life.
For the rest of American, Toyota perceived image quality has finally spoken for itself and indicated it is no better than GM, Ford, etc. Those die-hards always defended their actions by, "Oh, but it is a Toyota", the best quality in the industry, and flawless and worth paying the extra thousands of dollars over the competition.
Just like Ford who managed to get over the Explorer issue, Toyota WILL NEVER be the same and WILL NEVER be able to be viewed the same. The die-hards? Sure they will always be there, but much like Ford, Toyota has finally become just another automaker with nothing unique to make them stand out in the competition.
Now, the question to that is: was that their slogan when they had exploding Pintos?
Cannot recall, as that was 32 year ago...talk about living in the past. In addition, I guess there are just some who cannot even see what Toyota has done and prefer denial. Even better is making the quality comparison of a Toyota Camry to a Pinto. Now how sad is that? LMAO :shades:
For those in denial, maybe you need to listen to this a couple of times:
How Sad...Toyota Should Be Ashamed Of Their Actions
Maybe "stirring the pot" is a form of recreation for some.
Let's agree to disagree. You wanted to know which auto companies had done worse than Toyota, so you invited the comparison. How sad is THAT? Beware what you ask for, or you might get it.
More realistic would had been a comparison in the past couple of years, you had to go back 32 years? Again, living in the past is the easy thing to do. Oh, just in case for some recent and relative information:
2009 Chevy Malibu - N. American Car of the Year
2010 Ford Hybrid Fusion - N. American Car of the Year
Buick - top or near top of JD Powers' customer satisfaction survey past few years
If that was your understanding also. I do apologize.
Would you mind going to some GM discussions and reminding people "most of the car companies have had "issues" and they've been resolved...case closed. This nonsense in here is useless...let's all just let Toyota fix the problem and let's move on shall we!". And make that include needing some financial help to tide the company over.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
NHTSA mulling Toyota fines for delayed recall
$16.4 million. That's the maximum amount the Department of Transportation (DOT) can fine an automaker for failing to recall a defective vehicle in a timely manner. And according to a recent report, the Feds could be pursuing a multimillion-dollar fine – the sum, yet to be disclosed – due to the Toyota recall.
The largest civil penalty ever imposed was handed down to General Motors when a windshield wiper on 581,344 SUVs wasn't dealt with in accordance to the DOT's regulations. Although no automaker has ever incurred the maximum penalty, judging by Secretary Ray LaHood's recent comments about Toyota's handling of the matter ("While Toyota is taking responsible action now, it unfortunately took an enormous effort to get to this point."), it's not so much a matter of when as it is how much.
Interesting comment about Ford, given that sales data and consumer opinion suggest otherwise. If you look at % change for YTD sales over 2009, Ford is killing the domestic market (and most imports too), and they happen to have the top-selling pickup. They must be doing something that attracts consumers versus the competition.
If Ford can do it, why not Toyota?
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I'm not one, so I didn't read it.
I had responded to you earlier and now see you reponded my message attempting to explain.
Glad someone understood me.
Thanks. Best to you.
Then when this problem started to unravel with Toyota, they had the nerve initially to blame the customer, then it was the floor mats, then it was the pedals, now its the electronics, whats next?
Nissan, Honda, or any of the others in my opinion operate in that same manner of nearly being above the law. Something that once again Toyota attempted by resisting the recall...maybe now we are being to learn why.
Ford is coming back it seems. Saw the statistics in news.
I am hoping a brake override system update might be avaliable for me to purchase and have flashed into my 2006 RAV4.
run a '73 pinto into a pole @ 5 mph and do the same with a new Camry (or just about any other currently produced car) and see which one ends up with more damage. :surprise:
Here you go.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/srp-view.aspx?id=93656
MNF
MNF
"Yes, I definitely agree that be the case when anyone gets into a Toyota now a days. They went from be above all other automakers to one of the most unsafe cars on the road today."
You take a risk when you get out of bed every morning.
Go out and drive that Camry. You'll enjoy it. The risk will give you a rush!!!
Or give it to me. I'll even come and pick it up!!!!
In all cases we setup the equipment such that a single button will trigger things to close. Basically think of an E-Stop as the props holding a sliding door up in a hallway. The E-Stop "kicks the props out" and the door slams shut. Now picture if that door is in the fuel-line heading into the engine. Let the door shut and the fuel system losses any pressure, and the engine immediately coughs and shutsdown.
In most of the valves we use, a power source holds the valve open, while springs in the valve are constantly trying to close it. The E-Stop kills the power, and the springs close the valve. Simple and fool-proof.
Machine vs. fool-proof designs. An equipment supplier once provided my company with a machine that has sensors that look at a container with some optical sensors and then rotates the container to be right-side up. Works fine most of the time, until a sensor gets a little dust on it, or gets misaligned, or the CPU locks-up, and the mechanism sometimes can get jammed. A lot of relays, sensors and some moving parts. I didn't like these occassional problems and instead developed a peg system. The container is dropped in a chute that centers the container on a piece of clothes-hanger. The closed end of the container is heavier. The container always tips to the heavier side (Until a quantum-theory failure of gravity occurs :P ). Heavier side down = right-side-up! Much simpler and reliable then this over-engineered machine that was built.
I think in general we're going beyond "reasonable" with making our appliances too complex in hardware and software.
Toyota recalls 180,000 British vehicles as safety fears accelerate
For six weeks Catherine Block struggled to control her Toyota Aygo. Without warning, the silver car would accelerate even though her foot was not on the pedal. Sometimes the burst of speed would last seconds, on other occasions several minutes, taking her over the speed limit and posing a potential danger to others.
“It would start accelerating by itself for no reason. It gradually got worse and worse,” said Ms Block, 28, an MA student in international relations.
“It felt like holding on to a horse that was trying to bolt. When the problem happened it felt like I was trying to hold it back. It was frightening.”
Mechanics were unable to solve the phantom acceleration although she made several visits to her Toyota dealer.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/article7014247.ece
I find it interesting that after NHTSA was asleep at the wheel and suddenly had to wake up and dig into this stuff they are starting to get concerned about possible sensor issues on newer cars, and not just Toyota. I wonder if they are finding something, or some possibility, that is driving this new found interest? Frankly, all car manufacturers may be wise to get into brake override in a hurry. Technology may be accelerating at a pace that exceeds manufacturer's capabilty of assessing risk.
Toyota denies problems often--I know someone who had
many problems and Toyota DENIED them all !!!
--
He sued and won in arbitration under the LEMON LAW
and I read they deny many problems on these TOYOTA Forums.
-------------- :lemon: -----------
Is a safe brake activated stop for an auto one that uses the same computer that may be problematic itself to active to the failure setting (idle)?
Or does it require an additional computer and sensor(s) that are sovereign to the car's powertrain control module?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You have to think they're taking market share away from GM and Chrysler. And now, with the Toyota fiasco, I'd have to think they're benefiting by that, too.
This Toyota deal just keeps getting bigger and bigger, more widespread. First it was the floor mats. I really never thought that was remotely the cause of the UA issues. Then, they tried to place blame on CTS, which via dissection videos and 3rd party inspections, isn't the issue either. Now, it's entirely possible it's a firmware/software issue....maybe even electro-mechanical.
First it was just a certain segment of their vehicles. According to Toyota the likes of Lexus and the Prius weren't involved. Yet, here comes evidence that Lexus and Prius should probably be recalled, too.
Forget about repairing their reputation right now. In the public eye, that's already shot. Focus on finding the real root cause, get a true fix for it, and go about implementing the fix as quickly, and as widespread, as possible. Then, and only then should they worry about their tarnished image. That's going to take way longer (if ever) to repair.....years.
Yes, they'll lose market share....a lot of it. Yes, they'll probably money, a lot of it. Yes, they've lost their reputation.....just about all of it at this juncture.
But, do what's right, not fiddle faddle around, trying to save face (when there's none to be saved), and move to be honest with their customers, they'll come back. Probably not quickly, and at great cost to Toyota, but they will come back.
But consider this. If you have some bad software or hardware on that engine control computer-board, what's another fool-proof way to stop it? Physically pull/cut the power-cord to it right? I know I've used the OBDII analyzer on my carwhich is easily accessible under the dashboard. So now you extend the 1 powercord somewhere easily reached, and voila, you now have an easily way to deactivate the Toyota HAL. That would work, but the PR / Product Managers at Toyota could never allow that since other cars don't have that. That would be a major blow to image.
So there are certainly things Toyota could easily do to put a kill-switch in their vehicles. BUT they will reject those that are "visible" and will hurt their image. So good luck to Toyota owners who need to wait for their electronic/software fix that may find the problem or cause a new set.
MNF
Pull the plug on the car, and what happens to your power steering and vacuum assisted brakes?
I'd be fumbling for my Slurpee and accidentally hit the kill switch. :shades:
You could fix that with a 3 second kill switch, so you'd only travel the length of a football field while you were trying to regain control of the car.
Talk about a little presssure on the job. :P And the NHTSA is gonna be feeling a tad bit a heat, too, if they aren't overheating already.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
NEWSWEEK's Matthew Philips spoke with Gene Grabowski, chair of crisis and litigation practice at Levick Strategic Communications, the same firm that represented pet-food makers and toy manufacturers during 2007 recalls. Excerpts:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/232962
I was very impressed with your logical approach to E-Stop.
My nonprofessional opinion is I agree. Computer technology is great. But bugs do occur. Your emergency shut down system must be fail proof.
I worked for Kaiser and we had computerized medical system. Most likely would be considered one of better systems within US medical system. And bugs occured. My own computer has occasional bugs. Of course they revert back to normal most times.
How this announcement fits in with whole sequence of events, and statements - guess will see as all unravels.
Bottom line - any possible intermittant computer bugs which might cause UA will be overcome. Will be a win-win for Toyota and owners/consumers too.
UA in and of itself is a high human safety risk exposure.
The battery is still there. One wouldn't need to cutoff all electrical power to systems. Do you shutdown the electricity in your whole house, if you're just renovating the kitchen?
Even at work if we hit a master room E-Stop to shutoff "everything" in the area, there may still be a critical system running like ventilation, which was determined to be critical at ALL times.
That's what engineers get paid to do - work thru scenarios and determine what happens and how to make it function. Toyota's engineers have many "E-Stop solutions" to safely let you stop a runaway car.
wait until you have a sensor malfunctioning in that brake override system.
Imagine you are traveling 65mph on the interstate during rush hours and suddenly your brake sensor incorrectly tells your computer that you wanted to brake when you don't. the computer cuts off the fuel to your engine and puts it in idle.
Bam! you got vehicles coming up left and right of you and your vehicles is losing speed fast. and that semi is approaching your rear end fast....
will you sign a rider that indemnify Toyota for ensuring liabilities?
probably not, because you want to have your cake and eat it at the same time.
just how do YOU know that they know that?
are you guys so used to producing baseless allegations that it is impossible to stop?
And bugs occured. My own computer has occasional bugs. Of course they revert back to normal most times.
Yes, and I'm sure some mathematician out there could tell us that as you make systems more intricate, with more devices and more software you increase the probability of bugs, and things that can fail. There's probably not one of us here, who hasn't had something inexplicably lockup on them, and the only solution was to unplug it, wait a minute, restart it and hope that the device started up right. But then you're not sure what the bug was, and if it is going to come back again.
Well guess what? Electrical engineers love to automate the functions of your car similarly because they are "Better". And I agree they are better in many ways of efficiency and convenience. But when they have a problem, which they will have, the operator needs to have a foolproof method to shut it down, and that is not a switch tied to a computer-board, "talking" to the computer-board that is malfunctioning.
If you're sitting in your seat in the car, and you have UA, there needs to be a fool-proof method to kill the power to the engine. Shutoff the gasoline, kill the power to the engine computer, kill the current to the spark-plugs, are some methods. All should be as full-proof as pulling the electrical cord from the wall in your house.
I don't think there is a person here who knows that. That ignition switch is electronic. It is tied to a computer somewhere. I would assume that an igniton switch is tied into the engine computer board and thus it's software. You have an "Escape" key on your computer-keyboard. Does that necessarily work if you're computer freezes up? Does Alt-Ctl-Dlt always work? Or do you finally need to pull the plug?