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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Auto companies have done worse

    REALLY?


    Ford's lawyers said it was cheaper to let a few people burn up that fix the Pinto. Much worse, unless you have evidence that you have not presented.

    Boeing had 737's with rudder problems that killed 100's of people. Airbus may have a pitot problem that crashed a plane over the Atlantic. I'm not apologizing for Toyota, and they have made mistakes -- I'm saying your posts are all out of proportion to the problem, attempting to whip everybody into a frenzy.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Folks,dont feed the cable pigs !! :P Mass hysteria,baseless allegations,senseless paronoia-- ultimately things willsettle down ! ;)
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    From the one who has built their reputation on quality and by doing so

    How did that slogan go? Quality is Job 1?


    No, wrong outfit, it was the one with the tagline..."Suddenly Moving Forward"
  • westashleycrmwestashleycrm Member Posts: 3
    Ford had the slogan: Quality is Job 1

    Now, the question to that is: was that their slogan when they had exploding Pintos? ;)
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Ford's lawyers said it was cheaper to let a few people burn up that fix the Pinto.

    True, Ford has issues with the Explorer and then there was the Pinto. The difference is Toyota, not Ford, built the supremacy on quality claiming to be 2nd to none; the arrogant attitude is what this involves. Every other automaker has had their ups and down and no one has ever disputed that, but when it comes to Toyota, many of always viewed it as the god child.

    Then it was considered acceptable even when Toyota tried to cover-up these issue for the past 5 years and continued even when all of this broke; it was the driver, it was the supplier, etc.

    So what is being missed is the pedestal that Toyota put itself on and too many consumer falling into the same trap. Sure, there will also view that this is not Toyota's fault, they have no responsibility, and it will be the same ones who will only own a Toyota for rest of their life.

    For the rest of American, Toyota perceived image quality has finally spoken for itself and indicated it is no better than GM, Ford, etc. Those die-hards always defended their actions by, "Oh, but it is a Toyota", the best quality in the industry, and flawless and worth paying the extra thousands of dollars over the competition.

    Just like Ford who managed to get over the Explorer issue, Toyota WILL NEVER be the same and WILL NEVER be able to be viewed the same. The die-hards? Sure they will always be there, but much like Ford, Toyota has finally become just another automaker with nothing unique to make them stand out in the competition.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I sure didn't. I talked with my son when this all started, and that was first thing he asked me. Did I have brake override system? Then I was off researching the next day. Have learned alot. Have3 spoken with my son multiple times. Since he does the actual developemnt/engineering auto computer software professionally - got lots of help undertanding. Happy to hear I was not the only one.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476

    Now, the question to that is: was that their slogan when they had exploding Pintos?

    Cannot recall, as that was 32 year ago...talk about living in the past. In addition, I guess there are just some who cannot even see what Toyota has done and prefer denial. Even better is making the quality comparison of a Toyota Camry to a Pinto. Now how sad is that? LMAO :shades:

    For those in denial, maybe you need to listen to this a couple of times:
    How Sad...Toyota Should Be Ashamed Of Their Actions
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    Somehow I knew that was the case.

    Maybe "stirring the pot" is a form of recreation for some.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Cannot recall, as that was 32 year ago...talk about living in the past. In addition, I guess there are just some who cannot even see what Toyota has done and prefer denial. Even better is making the quality comparison of a Toyota Camry to a Pinto. Now how sad is that?

    Let's agree to disagree. You wanted to know which auto companies had done worse than Toyota, so you invited the comparison. How sad is THAT? Beware what you ask for, or you might get it. ;)
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    You wanted to know which auto companies had done worse than Toyota, so you invited the comparison.

    More realistic would had been a comparison in the past couple of years, you had to go back 32 years? Again, living in the past is the easy thing to do. ;) Oh, just in case for some recent and relative information:

    2009 Chevy Malibu - N. American Car of the Year
    2010 Ford Hybrid Fusion - N. American Car of the Year
    Buick - top or near top of JD Powers' customer satisfaction survey past few years
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Gosh - I was sticking up for Toyota. You must have read only Milwood's comment which may have made it appear I wasn't.

    If that was your understanding also. I do apologize.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >most of the car companies have had "issues" and they've been resolved...case closed. This nonsense in here is useless...let's all just let Toyota fix the problem and let's move on shall we!

    Would you mind going to some GM discussions and reminding people "most of the car companies have had "issues" and they've been resolved...case closed. This nonsense in here is useless...let's all just let Toyota fix the problem and let's move on shall we!". And make that include needing some financial help to tide the company over.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    image

    NHTSA mulling Toyota fines for delayed recall

    $16.4 million. That's the maximum amount the Department of Transportation (DOT) can fine an automaker for failing to recall a defective vehicle in a timely manner. And according to a recent report, the Feds could be pursuing a multimillion-dollar fine – the sum, yet to be disclosed – due to the Toyota recall.

    The largest civil penalty ever imposed was handed down to General Motors when a windshield wiper on 581,344 SUVs wasn't dealt with in accordance to the DOT's regulations. Although no automaker has ever incurred the maximum penalty, judging by Secretary Ray LaHood's recent comments about Toyota's handling of the matter ("While Toyota is taking responsible action now, it unfortunately took an enormous effort to get to this point."), it's not so much a matter of when as it is how much.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Sure they will always be there, but much like Ford, Toyota has finally become just another automaker with nothing unique to make them stand out in the competition.

    Interesting comment about Ford, given that sales data and consumer opinion suggest otherwise. If you look at % change for YTD sales over 2009, Ford is killing the domestic market (and most imports too), and they happen to have the top-selling pickup. They must be doing something that attracts consumers versus the competition.

    If Ford can do it, why not Toyota?

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    there is an 'open letter' from Toyota to their customers.
    I'm not one, so I didn't read it. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Oh, oh somehow these reply clicks on this site seem to maybe have slight glitz too. Your click was also available elsewhere.

    I had responded to you earlier and now see you reponded my message attempting to explain.

    Glad someone understood me.

    Thanks. Best to you.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Ford has had some impressive sales lately and their upcoming models ought to continue the same. The difference with Toyota is the attitude they try to project of being superior to all other automakers. Granted Ford excels, but it is a totally different mentality to it.

    Then when this problem started to unravel with Toyota, they had the nerve initially to blame the customer, then it was the floor mats, then it was the pedals, now its the electronics, whats next?

    Nissan, Honda, or any of the others in my opinion operate in that same manner of nearly being above the law. Something that once again Toyota attempted by resisting the recall...maybe now we are being to learn why.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Toyota is going no where. I am tickled they implemented brake override system for all models starting 2011, maybe even earlier. Their stats for UA will go way down. The end result should be a win- win for Toyota and owners/consumers, but guess to be honest and objective - still ways to go- pending investigation. This has been a bumpy road. Lots of negative publicity.

    Ford is coming back it seems. Saw the statistics in news.

    I am hoping a brake override system update might be avaliable for me to purchase and have flashed into my 2006 RAV4.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    back in the 70's the government was more worried about 5 mph crashes than 70 mph crashes.
    run a '73 pinto into a pole @ 5 mph and do the same with a new Camry (or just about any other currently produced car) and see which one ends up with more damage. :surprise:
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Where is the open letter???
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, we have dealt with these very same issues in our medical clinic setting. Statistics seem to support concept. Human reactions in emergency situations must be takien into consideration.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
  • westashleycrmwestashleycrm Member Posts: 3
    The winky should have showed you that the question was rhetorical and that it was tongue-in-cheek. AND it was not directed at you, but in response to the mod's use of that particular tag line. I'm wasn't trying to make a quality comparison between the Pinto and the Camry - I didn't mention Toyota at all.
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    Whats new just the last two weeks Senators, Cabinet members spoke out of place or but there foot in there mouth. Why should he be any differant but thats not some people want to hear.

    MNF
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    Careful...... JD Powers also praised Daewoo at one time

    MNF
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    that's exactly why we take risks.

    "Yes, I definitely agree that be the case when anyone gets into a Toyota now a days. They went from be above all other automakers to one of the most unsafe cars on the road today."

    You take a risk when you get out of bed every morning.

    Go out and drive that Camry. You'll enjoy it. The risk will give you a rush!!!

    Or give it to me. I'll even come and pick it up!!!!
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    I design processes in factories that incorporate mxers that turn at more than 2,000 rpm, use 480V service, use air to move materials. We have had instances where someone has gotten clothing caught in a machine, or a spill of flammable liquid was occurring, and we may have workers who are just being trained.

    In all cases we setup the equipment such that a single button will trigger things to close. Basically think of an E-Stop as the props holding a sliding door up in a hallway. The E-Stop "kicks the props out" and the door slams shut. Now picture if that door is in the fuel-line heading into the engine. Let the door shut and the fuel system losses any pressure, and the engine immediately coughs and shutsdown.

    In most of the valves we use, a power source holds the valve open, while springs in the valve are constantly trying to close it. The E-Stop kills the power, and the springs close the valve. Simple and fool-proof.

    Machine vs. fool-proof designs. An equipment supplier once provided my company with a machine that has sensors that look at a container with some optical sensors and then rotates the container to be right-side up. Works fine most of the time, until a sensor gets a little dust on it, or gets misaligned, or the CPU locks-up, and the mechanism sometimes can get jammed. A lot of relays, sensors and some moving parts. I didn't like these occassional problems and instead developed a peg system. The container is dropped in a chute that centers the container on a piece of clothes-hanger. The closed end of the container is heavier. The container always tips to the heavier side (Until a quantum-theory failure of gravity occurs :P ). Heavier side down = right-side-up! Much simpler and reliable then this over-engineered machine that was built.

    I think in general we're going beyond "reasonable" with making our appliances too complex in hardware and software.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The letter is meaningless. They have not addressed the real problems. They know they have some bugs in their control firmware. They are buying time hoping people will believe that it is the throttle control and the mats at fault. The Feds need to keep their feet to the fire until they resolve the problems with the cars on the road. Then they can go back to building and selling cars people feel safe in. They better hurry as it is spreading around the World like a cancer.

    Toyota recalls 180,000 British vehicles as safety fears accelerate

    For six weeks Catherine Block struggled to control her Toyota Aygo. Without warning, the silver car would accelerate even though her foot was not on the pedal. Sometimes the burst of speed would last seconds, on other occasions several minutes, taking her over the speed limit and posing a potential danger to others.

    “It would start accelerating by itself for no reason. It gradually got worse and worse,” said Ms Block, 28, an MA student in international relations.

    “It felt like holding on to a horse that was trying to bolt. When the problem happened it felt like I was trying to hold it back. It was frightening.”

    Mechanics were unable to solve the phantom acceleration although she made several visits to her Toyota dealer.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/article7014247.ece
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think you have to keep it in perspective. IIRC Toyota has a 1/50,000 report incidence of UA which is a very small fraction of a percentage point. Ford was next with 1/65,000. I think its something we need to be aware of and despite the hysteria the media has given us a good refresher course on what to do if it occurs, just like we got a refresher on how to handle a blowout after the Explorer fiasco. BUT, Toyota better be very sure the shim is the solution because if it keeps occuring more frequently than its competitors it has the potential to do some longer term damage to the company and its vehicle resale value. I still believe Toyota would be smart to program a brake override as a precaution on these vehicles and think that would make its customers more confidant at a relatively small cost to the company.

    I find it interesting that after NHTSA was asleep at the wheel and suddenly had to wake up and dig into this stuff they are starting to get concerned about possible sensor issues on newer cars, and not just Toyota. I wonder if they are finding something, or some possibility, that is driving this new found interest? Frankly, all car manufacturers may be wise to get into brake override in a hurry. Technology may be accelerating at a pace that exceeds manufacturer's capabilty of assessing risk.
  • raytoy44raytoy44 Member Posts: 10
    - :confuse: ---------------------
    Toyota denies problems often--I know someone who had
    many problems and Toyota DENIED them all !!!
    --
    He sued and won in arbitration under the LEMON LAW
    and I read they deny many problems on these TOYOTA Forums.
    -------------- :lemon: -----------
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Machine vs. fool-proof designs.

    Is a safe brake activated stop for an auto one that uses the same computer that may be problematic itself to active to the failure setting (idle)?

    Or does it require an additional computer and sensor(s) that are sovereign to the car's powertrain control module?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    kirstie....interesting post about Ford and Toyota. Ford really hunkered down, got their quality up, and put out some cars that people wanted to buy....some are very interesting (Mustang, SHO, Fusion (and its hybrid)...upcoming Focus....many others.

    You have to think they're taking market share away from GM and Chrysler. And now, with the Toyota fiasco, I'd have to think they're benefiting by that, too.

    This Toyota deal just keeps getting bigger and bigger, more widespread. First it was the floor mats. I really never thought that was remotely the cause of the UA issues. Then, they tried to place blame on CTS, which via dissection videos and 3rd party inspections, isn't the issue either. Now, it's entirely possible it's a firmware/software issue....maybe even electro-mechanical.

    First it was just a certain segment of their vehicles. According to Toyota the likes of Lexus and the Prius weren't involved. Yet, here comes evidence that Lexus and Prius should probably be recalled, too.

    Forget about repairing their reputation right now. In the public eye, that's already shot. Focus on finding the real root cause, get a true fix for it, and go about implementing the fix as quickly, and as widespread, as possible. Then, and only then should they worry about their tarnished image. That's going to take way longer (if ever) to repair.....years.

    Yes, they'll lose market share....a lot of it. Yes, they'll probably money, a lot of it. Yes, they've lost their reputation.....just about all of it at this juncture.

    But, do what's right, not fiddle faddle around, trying to save face (when there's none to be saved), and move to be honest with their customers, they'll come back. Probably not quickly, and at great cost to Toyota, but they will come back.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Toyota has an issue here, but it may be a bit overblown. The reported incidence of SUA is 1/50,000 and most Toyota's still have pretty good reliability stats. In fact, I just looked at CR and didn't see black dots in areas like engine or brakes, etc. which seems to be in line with the relatively low number above of reported actual UA. What Toyota needs to do quickly IMO is implement a brake override like VW has which would resolve these types of matters. Speaking of Ford, they were next I believe with a 1/65,000 UA reported incidents which leads me to believe even more that all manufacturers need to start installing brake override as a fail safe precaution over any potential electronic gremlin that might surface while driving.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Good questions on the brake and engine CPU's, that I myself hinted at earlier. I'm not sure.

    But consider this. If you have some bad software or hardware on that engine control computer-board, what's another fool-proof way to stop it? Physically pull/cut the power-cord to it right? I know I've used the OBDII analyzer on my carwhich is easily accessible under the dashboard. So now you extend the 1 powercord somewhere easily reached, and voila, you now have an easily way to deactivate the Toyota HAL. That would work, but the PR / Product Managers at Toyota could never allow that since other cars don't have that. That would be a major blow to image.

    So there are certainly things Toyota could easily do to put a kill-switch in their vehicles. BUT they will reject those that are "visible" and will hurt their image. So good luck to Toyota owners who need to wait for their electronic/software fix that may find the problem or cause a new set.
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    With all the knowkage and history that has been copied and pasted and in heart you hate Toyota. Why on earth would even consider or purchase one in the first place. If he wants to get rid of it that bad maybe start at $0.0 lets get a bid going I wonder what color it is.

    MNF
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    When you pull the plug at your factory, the machine stops.

    Pull the plug on the car, and what happens to your power steering and vacuum assisted brakes?

    I'd be fumbling for my Slurpee and accidentally hit the kill switch. :shades:

    You could fix that with a 3 second kill switch, so you'd only travel the length of a football field while you were trying to regain control of the car.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    nothing would happen to you in a football field's length of travel as your car goes out-of-control, right? A entire world of trouble can happen in that distance. I must admit this Toyota news is really an eye-opening squabble of huge and wide proportions.

    Talk about a little presssure on the job. :P And the NHTSA is gonna be feeling a tad bit a heat, too, if they aren't overheating already.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Thought was good. Poor Toyota has their hands full. Crisis Management today.

    NEWSWEEK's Matthew Philips spoke with Gene Grabowski, chair of crisis and litigation practice at Levick Strategic Communications, the same firm that represented pet-food makers and toy manufacturers during 2007 recalls. Excerpts:

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/232962
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Many thanks for providing the link for Toyota letter. Appears to just be a general letter. But is good. Personally feel they have been a little slow for US modern day technology. Too bad they did not position themselves in/on popular large Toyota chat rooms, etc.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Are you an engineer? Your knowledge and expertise is noted.

    I was very impressed with your logical approach to E-Stop.

    My nonprofessional opinion is I agree. Computer technology is great. But bugs do occur. Your emergency shut down system must be fail proof.

    I worked for Kaiser and we had computerized medical system. Most likely would be considered one of better systems within US medical system. And bugs occured. My own computer has occasional bugs. Of course they revert back to normal most times.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Toyota announced Nov, 2009 they will be installing brake override system all models 2011. This is great. Statistics will decrease from 40% of all manufacturers to much less. Yes, I too hope Ford takes notice -they are in second place. And no brake override. GM had bad stats, but then installed many modeld - now stats down.

    How this announcement fits in with whole sequence of events, and statements - guess will see as all unravels.

    Bottom line - any possible intermittant computer bugs which might cause UA will be overcome. Will be a win-win for Toyota and owners/consumers too.

    UA in and of itself is a high human safety risk exposure.
  • canadiantoyotacanadiantoyota Member Posts: 148
    Here is a recent comparison.... how about the Ford F-150 trucks that burst into flames even if they are parked and not operating? The cruise control is to blame and some customers have lost their homes when their truck started a fire in their attached garage. Before you go all "googly eyed", I own a 2008 F150 and I love it. I also own Toyotas and I love them too. They may have stumbled here, but they will come back. Remember, they come from the only country on earth that has been nuked and come back with a vengeance. I will continue to drive my vehicles and not worry.
  • mr_automdmr_automd Member Posts: 2
    Toyota should do something about this as soon as possible. If not, consumers will have the second thought of buying a Toyota after this large recall on their top car models.
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    Sharon , kernick there is already a kill switch, Im almost getting tired of saying this, but turning back the key one notch. You still then have enough steering and brakes in a potentially catatroshic event. Yes no.
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    Millwood I think you finally got it, but it should concern anyone that rides with you that you would have to fumble to turn a vehicle off.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Pull the plug on the car, and what happens to your power steering and vacuum assisted brakes?

    The battery is still there. One wouldn't need to cutoff all electrical power to systems. Do you shutdown the electricity in your whole house, if you're just renovating the kitchen?

    Even at work if we hit a master room E-Stop to shutoff "everything" in the area, there may still be a critical system running like ventilation, which was determined to be critical at ALL times.

    That's what engineers get paid to do - work thru scenarios and determine what happens and how to make it function. Toyota's engineers have many "E-Stop solutions" to safely let you stop a runaway car.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "This is great. "

    wait until you have a sensor malfunctioning in that brake override system.

    Imagine you are traveling 65mph on the interstate during rush hours and suddenly your brake sensor incorrectly tells your computer that you wanted to brake when you don't. the computer cuts off the fuel to your engine and puts it in idle.

    Bam! you got vehicles coming up left and right of you and your vehicles is losing speed fast. and that semi is approaching your rear end fast....

    will you sign a rider that indemnify Toyota for ensuring liabilities?

    probably not, because you want to have your cake and eat it at the same time.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "They know they have some bugs in their control firmware. "

    just how do YOU know that they know that?

    are you guys so used to producing baseless allegations that it is impossible to stop?
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Yes I am an engineer, for the last 25 years. I also have an MS in Project Management. I design relatively small chemical manufacturing processes. I've also briefly worked on nuclear submarine systems, and understand the need for reliable, backup systems.

    And bugs occured. My own computer has occasional bugs. Of course they revert back to normal most times.

    Yes, and I'm sure some mathematician out there could tell us that as you make systems more intricate, with more devices and more software you increase the probability of bugs, and things that can fail. There's probably not one of us here, who hasn't had something inexplicably lockup on them, and the only solution was to unplug it, wait a minute, restart it and hope that the device started up right. But then you're not sure what the bug was, and if it is going to come back again.

    Well guess what? Electrical engineers love to automate the functions of your car similarly because they are "Better". And I agree they are better in many ways of efficiency and convenience. But when they have a problem, which they will have, the operator needs to have a foolproof method to shut it down, and that is not a switch tied to a computer-board, "talking" to the computer-board that is malfunctioning.

    If you're sitting in your seat in the car, and you have UA, there needs to be a fool-proof method to kill the power to the engine. Shutoff the gasoline, kill the power to the engine computer, kill the current to the spark-plugs, are some methods. All should be as full-proof as pulling the electrical cord from the wall in your house.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Sharon , kernick there is already a kill switch, Im almost getting tired of saying this, but turning back the key one notch. You still then have enough steering and brakes in a potentially catatroshic event. Yes no.

    I don't think there is a person here who knows that. That ignition switch is electronic. It is tied to a computer somewhere. I would assume that an igniton switch is tied into the engine computer board and thus it's software. You have an "Escape" key on your computer-keyboard. Does that necessarily work if you're computer freezes up? Does Alt-Ctl-Dlt always work? Or do you finally need to pull the plug?
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