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Comments
Then he drove safely back to the Lexus store. That's the smoking gun in that tragedy.
It should be involved in the recall but that info off the pedal may indicate a Denso part. As I understand it tho the parts are not easily interchangable, if at all.
How many of us would not notice, pay attention to, the fact that the accelerator pedal is sticking from time to time, occassionally... where are those complaints...ignored by the dealers..??
IMO, speculation, this is indicative of the real world situation.
Toyota has found that the condition becomes more serious and then accute after the CTS assembly is used and becomes worn. Then the assembly could begin to be 'sticky' which then might result in a completely 'stuck' condition. But this is only after wear has occured. I don't know how long CTS has been making these parts for the various models. Apparently only after 2005.
It may take 3 to 5 yrs before that assembly begins to become worn enough such that it begins to be 'sticky' or fully 'stuck'. More data is needed.
Thus new and newer vehicles may not be 'worn' enough to exhibit such conditions.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/01/toyota-recall-update-1-why-lexu- s-and-scion-vehicles-arent-affected.html#comments
Those built in Japan use the Denso pedal assembly and are not subject to the recall; those built in North America use the CTS pedal and are included in the recall. Japan-built models will have a VIN number starting with "JT," North American-built cars will start with a numeral instead of the letter "J."
I will NEVER, EVER purchase another Toyota in my life. Toyota has gotten too big, too fast and they're quality has gone down hill. I notice that the only Rav4's on the recall list is 2009-2010. This problem with the Rav4 has been happening since 2006-a redesigned model year. This accelerator problem has been reported on Rav4 forums since at least 2007 when I bought my 2006 Rav4 4 cyl.
I guarantee that Toyota knew about this problem and decided to weigh the cost of recall vs. the cost of lives and decided that it would cost more to recall. This was until word got out that acceleration sticking was happening more often and the press decided to do a story on the people who died.
I just wonder how many more people who were like me and never reported the problem?
This may be the reason:
"Scion and Lexus vehicles are not on the recall list simply because these cars are imported from Japanese plants where Denso pedals are exclusively used. The one exception is the Lexus RX: It is built in Canada, but the pedals used there reportedly come from Denso."
Toyota Pedal Recall Update #3 (Inside Line)
Then they showed a New York showroom and the manager told them all he could do was tell them to leave and he got up to escort them out of the showroom.
ABC News played up that Toyota acted like they quit selling voluntarily while they had been told by Ray Hood's Transportation department that continuing was illegal.
ABC News also made a serious criticism of Toyota's telling people to continue driving their vehicles with the sticking pedal defect. ABC News indicated that would be dangerous to drive the cars.
I didn't get a good feeling from their piece tonight about Toyota's willingness to lay it all out. ABC News seemed to have something that they weren't telling.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
link title
Here's one of them.
ABC is pushing the story hard but maybe they need the ratings.
Toyota Hits the Brakes
And I heard that several years of the Vibe and the Venza have been added to the recall, although it wasn't clear if that was the recall for the mats or for the sticky accelerator. Either way, Toyota added 1.1 million cars to the recall late yesterday.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The starting letter 'J' is the country code for Japan and 'T' is the manufacturer.
North American built Toyotas will have the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 and then the letter 'T' for Toyota.
Hondas built in Japan would be 'JH' for the first two letters of the VIN and Hondas built in North America will be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 and then 'H.'
Like I'm going to listen to a thing ABC has to say about cars. Or anything else. Do you go to ABC News for medical advice or plumbing repairs?
John
Think you need to watch the video again and this time try to focus on the Toyota rep they interviewed, or the owners they interviewed, or the response they got at the Toyota headquarters, or the Edmunds rep they interviewed, or the Toyota commercial they showed which represents what they stand or shall I say stood for, etc.
Geeez! ABC News just carried the story, surprised you even come to the edmunds forum then if you are not going to even listen to what the Edmunds rep has to say about the situation. :confuse:
With the radar cruise control set in the mid 70's (speed limit was 70 mph on I-95), the radar detected a vehicle in front of me and began to slow down -- as is normal with the radar cruise control. The cruse control is very conservative and, even on the distance setting at the minimum, leaves a long distance between the car in front. I was feathering the gas pedal to get a little closer to the car in front of us, and was looking to change lanes to pass the slower moving vehicle. Suddenly, the car took off and accelerated as if I floored it. My father-in-law, who owns the car, and was with me at the time and asked "what the F###!!!" I was doing. I told him it was not me, but the car. At the time, I thought that the radar lost track of the vehicle we were behind, and accelerated to get back to the speed that I had set. I commented on how surprised I was that that cruse control would accelerate that aggressively -- it downshifted accelerated as if it had been floored.
It is relevant to note that the gas pedal was NOT stuck on anything, and I do not believe that it was depressed in any manner. The car did slow down after I pressed on the break -- hard, and I resumed normal driving after that.
Until this recall, I chalked it up to a shortcoming of the cruse control, but am now convinced that it was something other than that. Looking back, I believe that this happened more than once (we round-trip the car from NJ to FL every year) and we have garaged the car until the issue is resolved.
YES.
In exactly the same context, Ecoli outbreak, for instance.
http://abcnews.go.com/video/video?id=9685438&tab=9482931§ion=1206825&playlis- t=&page=1
There were several parts, all reflecting bad on Toyota, and this was one where the salesman told the shopper that the recall was only for "older" Toyotas!!! :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I called Toyota customer service myself. Why would I bother with the mass media? I called the dealer myself. I read the Toyota releases.
The Edmunds rep? What's an Edmunds rep? Does Edmunds build or fix cars? It's a web site. I've never bought a car from Edmunds, had them change my oil, sell a car for me or anything. It's a nice web site though, isn't it?
Some of us have been tracking/following these reported problems for a long time on line in other discussion forums. Reminds me of the Audi hoopla decades ago. There was a problem, but it was blown all out of proportion.
John
"Dateline NBC aired an investigative report on Tuesday, November 17th, 1992, titled “Waiting to Explode.” The 60 minute program was about General Motors pickup trucks allegedly exploding upon impact during accidents due to the poor design of fuel tanks. Dateline's film showed a sample of a low speed accident with the fuel tank exploding. In reality, Dateline NBC producers had rigged the truck’s fuel tank with remotely controlled explosives. The program did not disclose the fact that the accident was staged. GM investigators studied the film, and discovered that smoke actually came out of the fuel tank 6 frames before impact. GM subsequently filed an anti-defamation/libel lawsuit against NBC after conducting an extensive investigation. On Monday, February 8, 1993 GM conducted a highly publicized point-by-point rebuttal in the Product Exhibit Hall of the General Motors Building in Detroit that lasted nearly two hours after announcing the lawsuit. [2] The lawsuit was settled the same week by NBC, and Jane Pauley read a 3 minute 30 second on-air apology to viewers."
Yeah but that really wasn't Audi's fault. Nothing was wrong with the cars. The pedals were just a tiny bit closer together then on other cars but that was it. There were no problems with a part and if you held the brake and the gas pedal down at the same time the brakes would over power the engine. Audi never had to recall anything.
Jeep had a similar problem with XJ and ZJ cherokees in the 90s. People said there was SA but it was just people not noticing the pedals are a little closer together on those vehicles.
AND Edmunds has had interviews as car experts placing Edmunds in an industry position. In the past they might have gone to CR for talking head reports.
I was very impressed with Michelle Krebs and the information she gave. Unbiased.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This is the perfect example of this problem with Toyota from the beginning; nothing but excuses. Though I can honestly say I do not see what the example with NBC has ANY relevance here. ABC didn't narrate or make up anything; they tried contacting Toyota Headquarters, interviewed owners, etc. That is more important than anything.
Just like Toyota, too many people continue to live in denial, thinking that is a way to come to terms with something.
Toyota is wrong here; come forth and admit and stop making excuses while they are putting peoples lives in danger. Based on how Toyota has handled this, I do not see how anyone would want to purchase from them again. The competition is now as good or even better and their quality shows it, which leads the consumer to the question..."Why would anyone now a days buy a Toyota"? It is not for the quality or reliability as we have all now seen that demonstrated.
Just like back in the 80's when there were those that had an "H" embedded on their forward and all they could drive was a Honda, some of these die hard Toyota drivers will do anything to look the other way and make excuses for what Toyota has done.
I am holding on to mine to just a while longer to see if Toyota issues a buyback which I expect to happen. For now, it is parked in my driveway and not moving. I was thinking of selling it or trading it, but it seems the resale value has already been impacted negatively.
For everyone's safety, if you are on the road and see a Toyota coming up behind you, I would do everything possible to stay clear of it or it might not stop and you just might get rear ended. Never thought I would see the day when Toyotas are just unsafe to drive.
For everyone's safety, if you are on the road and see a Toyota coming up behind you, I would do everything possible to stay clear of it or it might not stop and you just might get rear ended. Never thought I would see the day when Toyotas are just unsafe to drive.
roflmao, bit irrational isn't it? What did you just see a screening of 2012 or something? "Oh no, there is a Toyota in my rear view, my life is over!"
1 in every 5 vehicles I see everyday are Toyotas, it's not like their crashing all over the place... Sheesh. :sick:
So by logic everyone who lives next door to somebody who has a Ford product, the first thing you need to do is panic and abandon your house before your neighbors car catches fire and then catches your house on fire and kills your entire family.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Steer clear!!!
Paranoia OK?
This problem with Toyota keeps changing everyday so hard to really know the heart of the problem until it all comes out and I blame Toyota for dragging this one.
First the was the Rustundra...now this bring new meaning to "Oh What a Feeling".
My point is this is serious, but let's not get carried away.
LOL at "Rustundra". Hadn't heard that one before. Good thing I put the soda down before reading that. :P
Like I have said before, tidester even made a thread about it, name a brand I can name a widespread problem they tried to sweep under the rug.
This Toyota thing seems to be on a whole other level though it just keeps snowballing and getting worse.
Drive by Wire.
Seriously, floor mats and other issues like that are just Toyota looking for an excuse when they know full well that the issue is something that can't be fixed without a major redesign next year. Ie - "It might be that if you place the mats just this way"(bunched up like only a moron would let happen) or "This servo might stick under the right conditions and enough wear"(despite the part being nowhere near its normal end of life)
The issue is drive by wire. Something's gone pear-shaped with their electronics and/or software that controls it and they're trying to find any excuse that might be the cause other than their design is unsafe. Blaming a servo or floor mats is just total BS and anyone with an ounce of technical skill would realize that servos and relays last for the better part of a decade.
The big give-away is the reports of the automatic cruise control malfunctioning. That's 100% software, folks.
Watch the next year models switch back to a throttle cable. Then try to sell your drive-by-wire ones used. To anyone.
***this is from Wikipedia on Electronic Throttle Control***
There are two primary types of throttle position sensors: a potentiometer or a Hall Effect sensor (magnetic device). The potentiometer is a satisfactory way for non-critical applications such as volume control on a radio, but as it has a wiper contact rubbing against a resistance element, dirt and wear between the wiper and the resistor can cause erratic readings. The more reliable solution is the magnetic coupling that makes no physical contact, so will never be subject to failing by wear.
This is an insidious failure as it may not provide any symptoms until there is total failure. (edit by me - they're talking about the second type of sensor here- usually the potentiometer desgins give plenty of warning)
*****
There also is a note at the bottom of the article stating that ETC is currently suspected in the recent Toyota recalls but that Toyota is fiercely denying it.
Guess what type of sensors the Toyotas use? Guess what happens when they get confused and start to fail? The U.S. made parts may be defective or fail in 2-3 years instead of 8-10 like the Japanese parts, but the problem still remains. When(not if) the part breaks and needs replacement, expect it to cause the throttle to jam wide open.
Bad, bad idea. Never trust your throttle or steering to a bunch of sensors and software, especially as your car ages.
Seriously, floor mats and other issues like that are just Toyota looking for an excuse when they know full well that the issue is something that can't be fixed without a major redesign next year. Ie - "It might be that if you place the mats just this way"(bunched up like only a moron would let happen) or "This servo might stick under the right conditions and enough wear"(despite the part being nowhere near its normal end of life)
It was NHTSA that forced the 4.2 ( + 1.1 ) million mat recall. Toyota was against doing it because it's stupid. The gas pedal and OEM mats were NOT the problem, they were NEVER the problem. This is NHTSA's horse that it's whipping.
The problem that NHTSA wants addressed is when stupid people do stupid things like put multiple floor mats on top of one another, don't secure them and even put the wrong All Weather mats in the wrong vehicle. Neither NHTSA nor Toyota can stop stupid people from doing stupid things, they can only minimize the risks of those stupid actions in the future. Be accurate, this one is NHTSA's baby.
Brand problems swept under the rug
The Detroit News reports that Toyota officials already met with members of the committee on Wednesday. They were asked to provide the committee with information and documents and will be expected to answer questions at the hearing about when they first learned of cases involving unintended acceleration in their vehicles and what steps were taken to safeguard customers who might be at risk. They'll probably also be asked about the connection between NHTSA and Toyota through one Mr. Christopher Santucci, a former NHTSA employee who took a job with Toyota around the same time these issues were first being investigated.
It's also fair to point out that this isn't the first time a recall has gained the attention of Capitol Hill. The recall involving Firestone tires on Ford Explorers in 2000 sparked Congressional hearings, for instance.
However, with the 2000-2001 Rustundra and the 1995-2000 Tacomas, they offered to replace or buy-back the bad trucks without having to issue a recall...very sneaky Toyota. :lemon:
We need congress to do something to safeguard taxpayers from congress.
However if they want to investigate improprieties on the part of Toyota and Santucci using inside connections to avoid proper noting of the acceleration events, from 2004 till now, I do encourage that.
If they're just investigating for a show, they've got other work to do in DC that isn't getting done while they're busy with politics as usual.
There already are agencies and laws in place to handle the recalls--such as the one requiring Toyo to stop selling the vehicles until they have a fix in hand.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Glad you like it, here is another one for you: TOyoTA(L) RECALL!
The throttle plate position sensor is actually TWO sensors, as is the accelerator pedal position sensor(s). The monitoring software compares the signal output from the primary sensor to that of the secondary sensor and if they do not compare within a certain range the software FAULTS (sorry, now you're not going nowhere in a hurry).
Potentiometer as position sensors. You have described a potentiometer design that is literally ancient history insofar as modern automotive feedback controls are concerned. Take one apart and have a looksee.
"Guess what type of sensors the Toyotas use?.."
Sorry, I don't have to guess, I KNOW. A simple, inexpensive, subscription to techinfo.toyota.com and you would also know. Most, if not all, sensors that we might consider critical are of the hall-effect type, DUAL hall-effect sensor type.
"Guess what happens when they get confused and start to fail..?"
Asked and ANSWERED..!!
"..The big give-a-way is the reports of the automatic cruise control malfunctioning.."
"..Thats 100% software, folks..."
NOT.
1.) Mechanical roadspeed sensor for input, "gear-tooth" magnetic sensor. Can be checked against, validated by, any one of the 4 ABS wheel sensors.
2.) Solid state power amplifier to drive the throttle plate servomotor.
3.) Throttle plate and servomotor itself.
4.) Throttle plate position sensor(s).
5.) Brake pedal light switch input.
6.) Accelerator pedal position sensor(s) so driver can over-right CC.
But yes the CC firmware might be at fault but IMMHO that is a lot less likely than the base engine/transaxle ECU control firmware being at fault. Maybe, just maybe, those driver's never thought to slip the transaxle into neutral but Toyota will need to prove that to me. So I'm of the mind that the engine/transaxle ECU firmware "crawled into a hold" (deadly embrace) with the engine already operating at WOT as the driver wished, momentarily wished. Now the engine/transaxle firmware will not close the throttle as the accelerator pedal is released, nor will it pay any attention to the shifter position switches. And maybe not even to the fact that the ignition has been switched off.
It is hard to imagine any company building worse electronics than Denso. People will not relate the problem to either CTS or any other supplier. It will be TOYOTA that knew about the SUA and let it slide. Meanwhile their are thousands of Toyota owners wondering how safe they are driving their cars. Where is Fox in all this? It seems to be the Obama networks, ABC & MSNBC doing all the dirty work.
One word...REFLASH..!!
Even if the firmware is at fault and it takes awhile to locate the "bug" a simple FAILSAFE modification could still be made that forces the throttle plate closed when the brake light switch closes.
"..back to a throttle cable.."
Then we had better ground one whole hell of a lot of AirBusses, 777's and just forget about the FAA ever certifying the DreamLiner.
It might take awhile, but "this" can be fixed.
Land Rover switching to mostly Denso electronics is what nearly single handedly cured the majority of their electronic problems.
It's taken them almost 20 years now even to get a climate control design half way right. I strongly suspect they might even be responsible for the U140E transaxle design flaw since that screw-up is in their nature.
Don't know where/when Denso treated you badly, but you may be falsely extrapolating your experience to Denso's overall performance.
It has been clear to me for many years now (most recently affirmed for me by this whole debacle) that Toyota has a major issue with transplanting their production to North America - the quality of Toyotas built here sucks, but doesn't in Japanese-built ones. The parts (mostly locally supplied) in North America are inferior, the build quality is inferior.
What is UNCLEAR to me is what Honda does differently that gains it such a high level of quality from its North American cars, indeed one that matches its Japanese-produced cars. I mean, Honda has been here a few more years than Toyota has, but they both have 20 years under their belts in this country .
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)