Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

mnf · February 2010

Oh so true WINNERS do something and come with a solution LOSERS complain and do nothing. No Risk no Gain

MNF

mnf · February 2010

Already posted>>>Your slowing down on the copy and paste buttons

#695 of 780 More unwanted publicity for Toyota by gagrice Feb 04, 2010 (11:14 am)

MNF

graphicguy · February 2010

While this is only one person, who happens to be a Camry owner, I think it may be indicative of what many are feeling.

This person happens to live 3 houses down from me. He bought a totally loaded '09 Camry SE. When he brought it home shiny and brand new last Sept, he knocked on my door to come take a look.

I'm not a big Camry person as I've test driven them in the past and they just weren't my cup of tea. That didn't make them bad cars....just not the kind of drive I like.

He took me for a spin, and he let me drive for a bit. While his is a 4 cyl, I thought it was pleasant enough. Didn't handle badly, but not great, either. It was quiet, without a doubt.

Looked a little close, and you could see some "gaps" in the trim that were very "un-Toyota-like". There were even some slight rattles that I didn't expect, either. But, all-in-all, nice car with all the options.

Fast forward to this past weekend. My neighbor was in a bother. He said that he had incurred UA and braking problems. I kind of dismissed his complaints as a response to the headlines of the day. He's got ~6,000 miles on the car, now.

We went for another ride. While I didn't think he was experiencing UA, the accelerator did seem quite sluggish in its response. You let off the peddle, and it slowly would respond with lower RPMs.....much slower than what I was used to (I have both an '07 Tahoe and an '08 Accord). Further, the brake peddle went nearly to the floor before actually slowing the car. Yes, the brakes did work, just not in a way any other car I've ever driven has. The peddle went almost to the floor before they actually took hold. And, they felt very, very "spongy".

His belief is that these traits are what everyone is talking about. Maybe yes. Maybe no.

As I told him, I'd definitely check the recall vins. And, I'd for sure have his dealership check the brake fluid and master cylinder as I didn't remember those braking traits when he first bought the car.

Bottom line, whether he has a problem or not, every owner is probably wondering "am I affected? Is my car going to exhibit 'run away' status that I'm reading about? will my brakes actually stop the car, if I do experience UA?"

He's wanting his dealership to tow his Camry to their service dept as he won't drive it. Knee jerk reaction? Dunno!

I went on a business trip this week to Atlanta and Orlando. Picked up the morning paper in each city. Every day, every paper, Toyota's bad news was on the front page.

So, in addition to yet to be decided successful safety fixes they may have, now they have a perception problem. Like my neighbor, whether there are, or aren't issues with their vehicles, the perception, real or imagined, is that they do have serious issues.

Was listening to the news of the day while traveling, too. The program focused on the state of trade-ins and used recalled Toyotas affected that might be for sale. How do you value them? And, if you can put a value on them, what is the price that would entice someone to take a chance on buying a used one, not only now, but in the future?

millwood0 · February 2010

"Their cars are fly-by-wire, too, and thus equally at the mercy of information-age technology"

this points to an issue I raised earlier: as long as you have a piece of software in a machine, you cannot be sure that it is bugfree until and unless you test it to the point where it is useless, in terms of costs or technology.

Maybe people were surprised that many hi-tech military gears run on really old hardware/software, or simple avionics is so expensive.

if the driving public absolutely demands bug free software / hardware and is absolutely not willing to take risks in automobiles, well, we simply cannot drive around.

this whole hysteria is a perfect demonstration of that.

all we are doing is to push up the cost of developing a good and we as consumers eventually bear that cost.

None of the recalls will cost Toyota or its shareholdres a penny, because every penny Toyota spends on fixing the cars, defending themselves in court or paying government fines comes from its future customers. a higher priced Toyota means a higher priced Honda, Nissan, BMW, or MB.

millwood0 · February 2010

I actually thought it is refreshing that he actually went out and apologized for his company's poor product, to the customers and shareholders.

I wonder when our politicians, bankers and UAW members / leaders, automotive company executives will apologize to wasting trillions of taxpayer money and causing wide spread harms to everyone and anyone but themselves.

millwood0 · February 2010

" would assume he checked."

"[non-permissible content removed]-u-me" is definitely what got lots of people into trouble.

jofallon · February 2010

I have a 2007 Camry, but I don't think those reactions to gas and brake are typical of any of the reported problems. The brakes certainly don't work like mine do; or like the brakes worked on the 2009 hybrid Camry I rented in California last year. I'd think there was a problem. On the other hand, the comments on the acceleration match my experience. Entirely apart from any UA issues, my Camry responds relatively slowly to the gas pedal, speeding up or slowing down. In addition, there's often a brief feeling when letting up on the gas that the car speeds up for a half second or so before responding. The mechanic who took it for a test drive with me next to him noted the same thing, and said that was expected behavior from a Camry with drive-by-wire. They upgraded the firmware and things improved a bit. I did not notice this sort of a problem when they lent me a 2007 Highlander for a week - that responded more like "normal".

revit · February 2010

I really liked the opening lines...

A friend of mine once had a Toyota that wouldn't die.

The odometer had only a dim recollection of passing 100,000 miles, the body was dinged, the paint was faded and the interior was worn, but the thing just kept running. He finally parked it at the airport, removed the plates and walked away.

But that was more than 20 years ago, long before Toyota became the world's biggest car manufacturer. Now the gas pedal doesn't work right on some of the company's models and the brakes don't work right on others. A brand name that once meant "indestructible" has become a punch line for late-night jokes.

The obvious lesson for Toyota: Be careful what you wish for. Toyota set out to conquer the world. In succeeding, it grew so fast that its vaunted mastery of quality control -- the craftsmanship and care that made people want to buy a Toyota in the first place -- couldn't keep up.

dturr · February 2010

Akio Toyoda came out of the woodwork today, You would think this guy would be in the US 'making it right' in the biggest ever crisis for Toyota.
Perhaps he thinks very little of his customers.

Kirstie_H · February 2010

A reporter is hoping to talk with Toyota owners/shoppers who are now thinking about Ford vehicles in light of Toyota headlines. Please email pr@edmunds.com by Monday, February 8, 2010 with your comments and daytime contact information.

sharonkl · February 2010

Sadly none of us may ever fully know as those poor people were killed. But fact remains he was veteran CHP officer and he was trained and CHP QA would have supported his competency level for emergency driving situations. Since vehicle was dealership loaner while his family car was being repaired & this being a loaner may have played a part in the why's. Experts/possibly courts will/have decide/d.

revit · February 2010

After NHTSA investigator hired by Toyota, serious unintended acceleration cases ignored

The more we learn about Toyota's rumored relationship with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the less we like it. Remember the claim that the government agency may have known about unintended acceleration issues as early as 2004? ABC News does, and the news network has been doing its best Sherlock Holmes work in an effort to learn more about the potentially damaging claims.

The ABC News investigation revealed that NHTSA wrote a memorandum limiting unintended acceleration claims to episodes lasting two seconds or less when the brake was never applied. The report states that the memorandum came down after agency representative Scott Yon met with two former colleagues (including Chris Santucci) who left the government to work for Toyota. Santucci testified back in December that the limited scope of investigations "worked out well for both the agency and Toyota."

Also in question is whether federal safety investigators are included in a federal law that states that "an employee in the executive branch is barred for two years after leaving government service from representing any matter under the employee's previous official responsibility." Santucci left his job at NHTSA six months before he reportedly negotiated the terms of the investigation with his ex-colleagues.

According to ABC News, the limited scope of the investigations ruled out 26 of the original 37 claims of unintended acceleration. A reported 25 of those 26 incidents led to an accident or crash, and since those incidents were outside of the scope of the investigations, NHTSA never looked into the incidents. Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies told ABC News that the narrow scope of the investigation meant "NHTSA almost ensured they wouldn't have enough complaint data to take action."

The extremely limited and nonsensical scope of the investigations between 2004 and 2007 continually failed to show any failures, and Toyota routinely pointed that out when the subject was brought up even in the weeks that led to the original recall of 3.8 million floor mats in the fall of 2009. In fact, ABC News claims that a document provided by Toyota to NHTSA stated that the Japanese automaker would not even submit a report to the government "in which the customer alleged that they could not control a vehicle by applying the brake."

kernick · February 2010

I agree with a lot of what you say, but this is a little bit off:

if the driving public absolutely demands bug free software / hardware and is absolutely not willing to take risks in automobiles, well, we simply cannot drive around.

The driving public understands any item no matter how well put together and checked is made by humans. Humans will always make errors and mistakes. The driving public have now started saying "wow there's people here having accidents, or near accidents at deadly speeds, and it's not clear how to shut this car off." It's shown that people will take all the risks of normal driving, they probably would accept the risk to keep driving the effected vehicles, BUT they want to be assured that they have a fool-proof OFF switch.

Toyota is either doing a poor job of convincing and communicating that they have a fool-proof way to shut their vehicle down, if there is a way built-in, if you experience UA.

If Toyota doesn't know what the problem(s) are, then they don't make a very good case to me that throwing a switch or lever that is connected electronically, is going to work. And I bet in the irrational-exuberance to make every system electronic, they now have nothing in their design, that the driver can use to stop the engine that isn't just a signal.

all we are doing is to push up the cost of developing a good and we as consumers eventually bear that cost.

Not necessarily, maybe it will have the opposite effect, and result in vehicles becoming simpler and less computerized.

I always wanted a dune-buggy, not a car that has computers to-the-ying-yang that park themselves. Same goes for watching racing these days with their homogenization rules, and the high-tech of F1. Reminds me I want to see if I can find some videos of the Can Am series of the 60's (run what you brung fun)!

jdm9 · February 2010

British Rover and Sharon esp. Just tried it (2010 Tundra 5.7 V8) from 60, 70 , 80 and approx 85mph, , the truck was predictable and handled the test very well. Under safer conditions ON A TRACK I would have had no hesitation going up higher in speed. What I did was exactly this. 1. Up to 60 , leave in drive , turn key back ONE NOTCH, apply brakes, was surprised at how well they worked, actually locked them up. brought truck to quick stop , steering harder but totally managable. 2.Up to 70 , left in drive turned back key ONE NOTCH, same result except this time I applied brakes harder, worked well again, brought back almost to stop, (10 mph), let off brakes and reapplied and once again instant stopping power remained. 3. Much more confident now, up to 80 , turn key back ONE NOTCH, still in drive, stomp on brakes hard, lock them up , slight fishtale, let off brakes , reapply, lots of brakes left , no noticable fade. lock them up again at about 40, let them off reaaply STILL no noticable fade, steering, harder but manageable, down to 15 mph , still no noticable fade, although thought I detected a bit of hardness in the brakes, could easily have left them applied and come to sceeching halt but instead shifted to neutral , started the truck, shifted back to drive and drove away at 10 mph. 4. Did same test as number 3 above from 85mph and had the same result. The braking distance of the truck (TO ME, I did not measure) did not appear noticably affected. One question I had in my mind when the wheels locked up was whether the ABS was disabled by turning off the ignition, however once again I was surprised at how well the truck stopped and to be honest I havent had the truck long enough to even know whether there is ABS but I think so. Road Conditions were dry and flat pavement, Temp 33 degrees. For my truck , (i cant speak for other models and DO NOT TRY OR PRACTICE THIS UNLESS UNDER EXPERT SUPERVISION) but I definetly know what i will try if UA ever happens to me. I also realize that my test in no way duplicated UA, as we dont know what will happen when the computer is malfunctioning and I will definetly be ready to try shifting to nuetral, but with very little practice everything that I did was accomplished very quickly , with no fumbling, as simple as shutting off and aplying brakes. With little or no leadership from Toyota I think it is encumbent on all owners to familiarize themseves totally with emergency stopping of their Toyotas. One final note was that I did also apply the emercency brake at the end of the 85mph test at about 10 mph. It appeared to be totaly ineffective and provided virtually no stopping power. Im not a mechanic and I am sure that there are mechanics out there that will have comments, such as "yea but if youd gone 5 more seconds youd have lost all brakes and steering" To which I will reply "thank you for that info I will make sure after I turn off the truck that I dont dilly dally applying the brakes." DO NOT TRY THIS UNLESS YOU ARE AN EXPERT DRIVER UNDER SAFE CONDITIONS.

jdm9 · February 2010

Although I dont know the complexities of the braking system, what you are saying appears plausible , I however only know that there was good braking power available during my tests in my Tundra.

wwest · February 2010

"..the driving public understands.."

I don't think so, I think the driving public thinks, in a way, that software is in the venue of "black magic", an intangible to remain hidden behind the "curtain". For years and years software was marketed as a hardware "accessary", provided for free if you purchased the supporting hardware.

But now, suddenly, the whole issue has been OUTED, forced into the public eye.

When "firmware" is to be incorporated in aircraft flight control systems the FAA has oversight capability. Not by any means saying that the FAA has people with the knowledge to intelligently and properly excersized that oversight.

The Toyota/etc DBW firmware, indeed the entire engine/transaxle driveline control firmware, is probably specified, written, and compiled "behind the curtain". Most likely by NipponDenso/Denso US, without even Toyota having, or excersizing, direct oversight at the source code level.

It would be my guess that with NipponDenso being the primary supplier of these firmware based systems throughout the asian market, and to a great extend within the US, we're about to see a lot more news of/on this issue.

dturr · February 2010

Some comments I read in the UK where the Avensis has the same issue;

"looks like the repair part has also been value engineered by Toyota"

Top engineer "fix looks like panic move "

graphicguy · February 2010

That's the impression I got, too...the alleged "fix" by Toyota was more of a panic move than really digging for the true culprit of the problem.

Someone mentioned that all recent cars are vulnerable to "drive by wire" issues. Fact is, Toyota is the only car company who has a worldwide, widespread issue with theirs.

That tells me that all the other manufacturers have my thoroughly thought out, proven their drive by wire systems.

wwest · February 2010

"..that tells me.."

Toyota has, by far, the largest installed base of DBW systems worldwide.

Tip of the iceberg, maybe...?

How many vendors, worldwide, for the firmware for controlling all these automotive DBW systems, Denso, Bosch, Siemens...??

Others..

lzc · February 2010

All manufacturers have received NHTSA complaints of UA. Ford's 2008 complaint rate was double their market share, for example.

Unknown is whether a higher complaint rate reflects defects or publicity.

I agree, though, that Toyota has been desperate to find a part to fix. How else do they stem the bad press? Whether they have the right part remains in doubt, especially since the pedal assembly hasn't been connected to a single auto accident.

We can assume the hunt for gremlins in the software continues.

debasis · February 2010

For many years I drove Ford and then got sick of their quality issues. Well, then I bought a new Honda van 2004 model. Excellent quality product so far. So, the next trial was a 2005 Toyota Corolla. Pretty poor build quality and many warranty services. However, fortunately, no significant repairs after the warranty was over. However, the recent incident proves that they are missing on quality consistently and at the same time being deceptive about their problems putting the drivers at risk. These used to be the traits of US car makers before. But now Toyota is worse. Never again a Toyota for me. They don't deserve my loyalty anyway.

yanker · February 2010

I recall the Audi having a similar problem in the 1990"s The car ran into buildings because of a stuck accelerator ??? Does anyone remember the cause Obviously they fixed it

juswheels · February 2010

I hope everyone can believe that I'm not intentionally bashing Toyota but neither am I happy with their actions. The more I read about their problems it's beginning to look like they were aware of the problems for at least a couple of years and tried everything they could think of to avoid the problems, until caught. Almost like they got caught up in some sort of weird "We're Never Wrong" fantasy.

I am in the market for a new car and will purchase when the winter breaks. Until recently, Toyota was at the top on my list but now, not even on it.

It's not that they won't find an effective fix, I'm positive they will. If there's a problem and they step up and fix it and that's all there was, it would be a simple matter to move on. However after reading extensively about the problems, it's my belief that until forced to take action, they had no intention of protecting their customers. In a few of the articles I've read, it was just a few shorts months ago that Toyota was painting their complaining customers as fools. That alone will send my dollars else ware.

Granted they had a great reputation, but somehow they lost sight of what they were doing and that's truly sad.

larsb · February 2010

More history and current Audi issues.

"Audi Investigated for Unintended Acceleration

Ford, GM and Toyota Also Suffer from UA Reports, But Audi Gets Top Headline

Recent complaints of unintended acceleration have been bad news for Ford and General Motors, but it could be much more traumatic for Audi.

The luxury brand has come a long way since similar accusations nearly drove it out of business in the 1980s, helped along by fabricated TV coverage courtesy of the CBS news show 60 Minutes.

It looks likely that the nightmare is recurring, but this time its not a corrupt TV series making up stories for ratings, but the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) heading up the investigation.

Monday the NHTSA stated it is investigating the 1998 and 1999 Audi A6 for a possible defect that could cause the sedan to accelerate out of the control of the driver.

Why the need to investigate? The government organization states that 16 complaints have been lodged with the agency regarding stuck throttles in cold weather, normally sub-freezing temperatures. One of the 16 complaints states that the vehicle was fully accelerating on its own, while another says the vehicle suddenly began to race, which resulted in the car running past stop signs and through intersections before the engine was shut off.

But the Audi cases arent isolated. Over the last two years complaints of unintended or sudden acceleration incidents have been growing. As previously mentioned both Ford and GM have been the subject of lawsuits.

Even the Japanese have been targeted, with the best selling Toyota Camry being investigated by the NHTSA for the same problem.

Looking to the past to make sense of the present, unintentional acceleration cases became more prevalent after 60 Minutes presented their one-sided coverage (actually 17 minutes of coverage) against the 5000, the A6 predecessor.

If youre not familiar with the 60 Minutes feature, it featured a variety of victims including one distressed mother, Kristi Bradosky, who had unintentionally killed her six year old son Joshua when her foot slipped off the brake pedal onto the gas pedal accelerating the auto, according to a statement taken by Canton, Ohio police officer Steven Zerby. Of course, the 60 Minutes episode that initially ran on November 23, 1986, titled Out of Control, and then ran again on September 13, 1987, declined to mention the police report, but rather took an excerpt that featured Mrs. Bradosky stating she had only pressed the brake.

Furthermore, the show went to great lengths in showing a doctored Audi 5000, set up to lunge forward on its own. Set up? To be clear, William Rosenbluth, an automotive consultant retained by plaintiffs in a suit against Audi, stated he drilled a hole in an Audi transmission and funneled fluid into it. The resulting filmed sequence, which featured the accelerator pedal moving downward on its own, provided 60 Minutes with critical visual evidence needed to cite the Audi 5000 with dangerous vehicle status. Rosenbluth said that 60 Minutes requested to film one of his tests, and that the show was fully aware of what he was doing. My objective was to demonstrate that you could get an [unintended] acceleration, commented Rosenbluth. Through manipulating the transmission, he managed to get the Audi 5000 to move on its own, but the 60 Minutes feature never brought to light that the car in question had been manipulated. We were appalled that 60 Minutes put this thing on the air, stated John Pollard, a principal investigator hired by NHTSA for its study. It was a stunt. It does not represent a real-life situation.

While the 60 Minutes debacle is interesting history, it represented a crushing reality to the Audi brand, nearly driving it into bankruptcy. Even after the brand was vindicated by the NHTSA, and Audi told the world the truth via full-page ads in newspapers and magazines throughout North America, it took over a decade for a return to the sales levels it enjoyed pre-60 Minutes.

It looks likely that the nightmare is recurring, but this time its not a corrupt TV series making up stories for ratings, but the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) heading up the investigation.

Just like in the 5000 incidents, automakers are stating that driver error is the culprit in the majority of cases. But current plaintiff lawyers allege that the high level of electronic devices and sensors are the reasons behind the recent resurgence of sudden acceleration cases. Either way, incidents involving Ford, GM and Toyota cars will be soon forgotten while those surrounding the Audi brand will long be remembered."

lzc · February 2010

Miraculously, the Audi problem disappeared when they installed a brake interlock system. This prevented someone from switching from park to another gear without their foot being on the brake, suggesting the problem was a human one.

But even early on the evidence suggested human error was the likely culprit. No matter, Audi's business was practically destroyed in the U.S.

kernick · February 2010

JDM9 - it sounds like you're making a real effort to help. What your saying may be proof of how the systems work when there is no UA.

However what you are doing does NOT prove that the ignition or shifting to N will work when UA is occurring. Example - my mouse and keyboard will bring me to any web-page I want right now. If the CPU however starts doing a certain series of tasks and locks-up, then my mouse and keyboard are not so useful. I may have to pull the plug out of the wall to try and recover.
If the ignition switch is electronic and the transmission is electronic, the sensors from that keyswitch or lever may be as useless as jiggling the mouse when the CPU locks-up and the cursor doesn't move.

kernick · February 2010

My statement was: "The driving public understands any item no matter how well put together and checked is made by humans." It wasn't specific to software.

But I agree with you, and you seem to understand software and firmware at a deeper level then most of us.

But now, suddenly, the whole issue has been OUTED, forced into the public eye.

I thought that happened in Space Oddity 2001? or the robot in Lost in Space? or the Terminator movies? I thought the message in those movies was "You better be damn sure you have a way to turn the machine off".

graphicguy · February 2010

larsb....don't know where that article came from, but I think it's factually in substantial error.

I've never heard of GM or Ford having any sort of widespread UA issues. Audi? Yes, but that was back in the 1980s. Those reports stemmed from one model....the 5000 (spiritual prelude to the A6). And of course, even more widespread is Toyota's problems.

In Audi's 1980s 5000 incidents, it was determined that the brake and accelerator pedals were closer together than and on a similar plane to foster "heel and toe" driving.

If you aren't familiar, "heel and toe" operation is something done mostly by testers and "racers" where the heel rests on the brake, while the toes are positioned over the accelerator. That allows someone to "blip" the accelerator with their toes, while holding the car at a standstill simultaneously. Thus, from a standstill, the engine could be reved to its optimum RPM range for power, and needing only to drop their "heel" from the brake to get faster launches.

In normal driving, operators accidentally hit the accelerator instead of the brake. Thus "unintended acceleration". The 5000 issues were mainly confined to the U.S. not worldwide, like Toyota is suffering.

True, Audi almost went out of business because sales of Audi 5000s dried up overnight after that bad publicity. Toyota is quite a bit larger, and is better positioned to weather this storm.

However, it took Audi over 5 years to win back the confidence of customers....maybe even closer to a decade. In addition, the Audi 5000, which was priced like any typical premium luxury brand, was absolutely killed in the resale department, for quite some time. And, even after Audi replaced the pedals with ones that had more differentiation between the accelerator and the brake.

The downside for Toyota, their recalls span many models, and more investigations persist, seemingly by the day, over electronically controlled accelerators AND BRAKING systems, in many countries.

I remember vividly how my older sister had bought a new Audi 5000 a few months before the UA story hit on 60 minutes (who did indeed admit they staged the incident on their broadcast), much to my late Father's dismay (who was "buy U.S.A. through and through).. There was no end to the "I told you sos" in our household over the issue.

My sister had her car retrofitted with the new pedals and drove it for 4 more years or so. But, the damage was done. She got a pittance for the car when she resold it because of the incident.

sharonkl · February 2010

Yes, brake override systems/equivalent installed did help correct Audi's issue. Most European autos seem to have presently, and stats appear good. GM had higher complaints too, and installed - incidents almost now down to low area with others. I just have not investigated which others do.

This research site appears to have some good information. Go to bottom box and can click on - one of selections will have a graph comparing all autos. Shows where info came from.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/07/20/sudden-acceleration/

This is same site - appears new info added today as reports were not there last time into site - & I have not read, but must read.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudden-unintended-acceleration/

I have not checked if any of my other bookmarked sites have any new updates.

anythngbutgm · February 2010

Not downing anyones opinion or inputs in this whole matter but to compare what happened with Audi and what's happening with Toyota is sort of misleading IMO. The thing about Audi was that beyond the accelerator issues, the brand has never been the pinnacle of reliability. Style? sure. AWD prowess? definitely. performance? Yep.

Quality, mechanical-wise? :sick: Even today Audi ranks in the basement as far as reliability goes. Fantastic driving cars but they are not known for reliability by any means.

Toyota on the other hand has had a long standing reputation and a well regarded history of being dead nuts reliable. Being dull but getting you from point A to point B for 200 thousand miles easily. People knew they could rely on their trusty Toyota.

Now, step away from the media hype for a second:

Think about this in a different way. Just because there is a spew of recalls going on here, does it mean that Toyota products still won't last as long as they always have? I mean, as far as I'm concerned (and I'm just looking at this from an outsiders POV) if I had a Toyota product that was affected, I would probably be peeved yes, but I would take it to the dealer, get it fixed and drive on. I'm sure the engine and drivetrain will still last forever, the quality of the vehicle in general (build, mechanical, interior, whatever) will still be at least to Toyota standards of the past few years, and the amount of unscheduled repairs will still be low. Toyota has always scored well in having the lowest ownership costs.

link title

My gosh, the way posters on here sound it's like every Toyota on the road is Christine or something. :confuse:

Anyways my point is that Toyota is catching a ton of flack because they were on top for so long and up until recently it was rightly deserved. Now people are treating the situation like their cars are all of a sudden Russian Ladas or Yugos never mind Audis. It's just so over the top.

My .02 :shades:

larsb · February 2010

anythingbutgm says, "Think about this in a different way. Just because there is a spew of recalls going on here, does it mean that Toyota products still won't last as long as they always have? I mean, as far as I'm concerned (and I'm just looking at this from an outsiders POV) if I had a Toyota product that was affected, I would probably be peeved yes, but I would take it to the dealer, get it fixed and drive on. I'm sure the engine and drivetrain will still last forever, the quality of the vehicle in general (build, mechanical, interior, whatever) will still be at least to Toyota standards of the past few years, and the amount of unscheduled repairs will still be low. Toyota has always scored well in having the lowest ownership costs. My gosh, the way posters on here sound it's like every Toyota on the road is Christine or something. Anyways my point is that Toyota is catching a ton of flack because they were on top for so long and up until recently it was rightly deserved. Now people are treating the situation like their cars are all of a sudden Russian Ladas or Yugos never mind Audis. It's just so over the top."

VERY well said. ( insert sound of hands clapping )

revit · February 2010

Has Toyota's brand perception eroded below that of Hummer? At least one survey thinks so

larsb · February 2010

Um, Yes, Hummer's problems are not BLASTED across the news every five minutes. Duh.

Take that survey in a year and get back to us....

sharonkl · February 2010

Many thanks! This is great to hear. Guess my issue regarding brake vacuum left when engine turned off to ACC resolved. I have not tried test turning off to ACC, I just placed in neutral at 60. Will have to try turning off, see what happens. You know me - safety first. Will be safe place.

Yes, I too really encourage all to try. My son said I had to get out and try - see what my vehicle would do. Seeing, then actually doing best.

larsb · February 2010

Also known as,

"bitter fired whistleblower getting his 15 minutes"

These cases are usually not as bad as a short news blurb can make them out to be.

beachfish2 · February 2010

"How many vendors, worldwide, for the firmware for controlling all these automotive DBW systems, Denso, Bosch, Siemens...??"

Is Toyota buying some from Lucas? :confuse:

stever · February 2010

The cause of Audi's sudden acceleration problem depends on what country you live in.

steve_, "Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall" #579, 3 Feb 2010 12:24 pm

gagrice · February 2010

the quality of the vehicle in general (build, mechanical, interior, whatever) will still be at least to Toyota standards of the past few years

That may be the problem. In visiting with friends last night the subject came up. They currently drive a 2005 Camry which they like and are not concerned about. What they did say I have heard more than once. The 1995 Camry traded in on their 2005 Camry was a better riding, handling car. And it was quieter out on the highway. My cousin told me the same thing about her late 1990s Camry. She kept the older Camry for driving to work and bought a 2007 Camry for trips. She does NOT like the 2007 as well as the 98 model.

So you are right about the cars being up to the standards of the last few years. Just not up to the standards in the 1990s that Toyota built their stellar reputation on.

wwest · February 2010

"..standards in the 1990's..."

It's really hard to sell Lexus ES300/350, etc, if the Toyota Camry's are just as quiet and comfortably riding, etc, and thereby really viable competition.

dmathews3 · February 2010

Toyota is catching a ton of flack because they lied to their customers and denyed anything was wrong with their cars placing ALL the blame on their customers. Now the 2010 Prius and what does Toyota say. Oh, its no big deal, just under certain circumstances you may or may not lose braking for about a second. At 60mph what is a second? 90 feet or so? Could be the difference between life and death.

gagrice · February 2010

Funny you should mention that. My cousin who could easily afford the ES350 opted for another Camry. The reason was the big bucks difference. She could not understand how they could get that much more for a glorified Camry. I wonder if your well made point ever occurred to her. She drove a Cressida until she bought the Camry and gave my aunt the Cressida. She always missed the Cressida. That was probably the pinnacle for Toyota. They cheapened the whole Toyota line to make the Lexus line look good.

gagrice · February 2010

At 60 MPH you are traveling about 90 ft per second. If you have one car length for every 10 MPH between you and the person in front of you that is 120 ft. The average reaction time for a driver is 215 milliseconds. You are driving your 2010 geek mobile down the freeway and the guy in his Golf TDI slams on the brakes. You react 215 milliseconds later and your brakes do not react for another 1000 milliseconds. The Golf is stopped in 110 ft from when you saw the brake light. Your brakes have not even started to take hold as you have traveled more than 110 feet. So you slam into him at the full 60 MPH. At normal 70 MPH it would be even worse.

PS
If you have 120 ft between you and the guy in front of you in CA two people will slide in there. Very lucky to keep 3 car lengths distance at 70+ MPH around here.

jdm9 · February 2010

Yes your absolutely 100% correct, as I stated in post 702 and previuos posts, this all might not help one little bit if the malfunctioning computer wont allow you to shift into nuetral or turn off the ignition. That remains unknown, but in a mechanical event this will work, so the way I figure it you have near 100% % certainty in a mechanical event and unknown (does that mean 50/50 probabilility) response in an electronic occurance but as I said in previous posts the lack of Toyota leadership on this issue has left us all pretty much on our own so you might as well have the knowledge and expertise and hopefully never be in the position that you have to use it, but if you ever unfortunately are in the position of facing UA at least you can go down fighting.

explorerx4 · February 2010

i posted 2 pictures, but you only saw one? ok.

revit · February 2010

So you are saying to don't believe it to be true?

Toyota Willfully Deceptive

The beleaguered automaker is facing renewed allegations that it systematically withheld information and ignored safety issues that could have prevented fatal accidents.

Dmitrios Biller, a former Toyota lawyer who handled product liability lawsuits, said in multiple media interviews that the automaker willfully tried to suppress evidence of defects.

"Toyota is a very secretive corporation," Biller told the Los Angeles Times. "It doesn't believe anybody outside the corporation deserves to know what is going on inside, even if it kills somebody."

"You have to understand that Toyota in Japan does not have any respect for our legal system. They did not have any respect for our laws," he also told ABC News.

The claims add yet another layer to Toyota's safety controversy: the company has recalled nearly 4.5 million vehicles worldwide to repair faulty accelerator pedals; the U.S. government announced a broad investigation - extending beyond Toyota - into suspected problems with electronic systems that could affect engines; and the automaker admitted its popular Prius hybrids had a design flaw in the brake system, which the government will also probe.

poncho167 · February 2010

I love it. Isn't this great.

tomjava · February 2010

You have to understand that Toyota in Japan does not have any respect for our legal system. They did not have any respect for our laws," he also told ABC News.

Really :confuse:

lzc · February 2010

Interesting. Thanks for the links. While I didn't read fully the 2d report, it begins fairly strongly anti-Toyota and NHTSA in tone, suggesting gremlins in the software are to blame.

Software gremlins work for me. But Toyota, NHTSA, and other car makers with complaints of UA have all had a difficult time identifying those gremlins. In the meantime, the powers that be demand action.

Another troubling difficulty is separating product defect from human error. Both exist. NHTSA, in its investigation of 2007 ES350 cars in Ohio, recognized the difficulty. So they conducted a random survey of model owners, who reported unexpectedly high incidents of problems. Still, NHTSA couldn't connect any incident to anything other than floor mats. While they didn't conclude anything, nor rule out anything, this and other preliminary reports probably helped Toyota reach the (premature) conclusion it did.

The same problem exists with the current recall of gas pedal assemblies. They haven't been connected to single accident. Toyota appears to be in a frantic search for something to fix, anything will do.

dturr · February 2010

More reports of Toyota cover up in the UK and some sites are questioning why a whole new pedal assembly has not been made available.
Many are questioning the fix or repair,
Seems that they are not prepared to accept a cover up by the Japanese.

revit · February 2010

Did Toyota Hide Life-Saving Information?

The secretary announced a new probe of the Toyota electronics system that links the gas pedal, through a tiny computer, to the throttle.

Some experts believe there is a software glitch or that the computer is susceptible to electromagnetic waves.

"It's the electronics, it's not the pedal," said Keith Armstrong, an an electromagnetic interference expert who was interviewed just this week as part of the new federal safety probe of Toyota.

Toyota's top executives have repeatedly denied there is any electronic problem that could cause their cars to speed out of control.

Toyota's U.S. president, Jim Lentz, told ABC News on Monday that he was "confident" there is no electronic problem.

But a former top Toyota lawyer who left the company in 2007 says the company cannot be believed, that officials in Tokyo give orders to hide evidence of defects that could be damaging to the company.

Four people were killed on December 26th last year when a 2008 Toyota Avalon crashed through a fence and landed upside down in a pond in Southlake, TX.

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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