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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    For about 5 years of my early adult working life I was involved in machine tool, mostly NC machines, maintainance at Boeing. Every one of those machines had at least one big red E-STOP button. Two, mostly, one on the main operator console and a second one on the traveling pendant.

    My next job was designing computer control systems for the lumber industry. All of the operator control panels had an E-STOP button with control circuitry independent of the computer controls.

    "..can be rather cheap.."

    And pretty DAMN intrusive...!!

    Lean over slightly to turn and check the rear attached rototiller and the engine shuts off. Bump the cutting blade drive engagement lever with your right knee and the engine shuts off.....

    Find me a lawn mower or garden tractor with these "safties" still intact and I'll award you $10 but you pay me $100 for every one that isn't.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >And pretty DAMN intrusive...!! Lean over slightly to turn and check the rear attached rototiller and the engine shuts off. Bump the cutting blade drive engagement lever with your right knee and the engine shuts off.....

    I understand completely about what you mean about the sensitivity of some safety features like the dead man shutoffs. Can that be adjusted to be less sensitive to your moving weight on it?

    However, I was reared in farm country and live in an area where we're surrounded by real farms. The number of farmers who were maimed or died when they fell off their tractor as the equipment behind them ran over them was unnecessarily high. I realize that most of them did something that I would never have done in the way of being safe. But sometimes the auto shutoffs would have helped.

    And almost yearly we have someone using their minitractor to mow their "estate" and they fall off and the thing maims or kills them.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..reared in farm country..."

    For me, cotton farming in the Mississippi river low lands in NE AR. My dad farmed with mules, never transitioned to tractors. In the early 50's a run-a-way mule team spooked by thunder put an end to his farming days.
  • dturrdturr Member Posts: 70
    See the Toyota advert running today, all the soft calming music pictures of the lines at a stop. Too little to late. Why no factual information on the message.

    The local SW Florida Toyota dealer beat them to it with messages on Tv that they have 300 new vehicles certified fixed. WOW. What happened to customers first.

    Plenty of information to come out of Europe early this week as the tabloid press are far more willing to get into Toyota and pushe for the truth.No one over in Europe is happy with Toyotas piece of metal fix.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    big....you lost me after "as I seeing"........

    Punctuation, spelling and grammar are your friends. Rely on them.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Forget the recalls, Toyota will have bigger problems...


    2011 Hyundai Sonata
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    And pretty DAMN intrusive...!!

    It depends where you put them. I've never put a parking brake on, unless I meant to put a parking brake on. I don't know anyone who ever has accidentally applied one while driving. Put a mechanical E-Stop down on the floor where the parking brakes used to be.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    NE AR?

    I think they farm a lot of catfish up that way, now... :)

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  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Here is Los Angeles Times report today. Refer to bottom of article. Reporter states Toyota cannot install Brake override into recall models as Toyota did officially confirm on their website November 25, 2009. Computer memory appears to be too limited to do. Also reported Toyota may have not install brake over now in future models as well.

    Unable to confirm validity of these statements. Can't find any other information on this so far. Hope these statement are incorrect.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fi-toyota-congress7-2010feb07,0,- 2932068.story?page=2
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    I wouldn't take too serious anything the media says today about this problem. They are in full hype mode.

    As to inadequate memory preventing a brake override install on some vehicles, could be. But how many cars? Which models? Why write about such stuff without providing relevant information? Maybe it applies only to vehicles 10 years old. Shame on the LA Times.

    Missing from all of these articles is specific information identifying the cause of UA, its frequency, or any effort to separate incidents of human error from defective parts.

    And still missing is any evidence that the gas pedal assembly has caused a single accident. European authorities had reports of 26 sluggish or sticking pedals (out of how many cars?) but not one accident resulted.

    This problem appears to be less dangerous, probably far less dangerous, than driving while talking on a cell phone. We need to get a little perspective.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Wow. :sick:
    Sorry to hear that.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I definitely would not rely upon LA Times or any news media report. I continue to rely upon Toyota Announcement they released Nov 25, 2009 on their website. But will continue observing if any news develops re: this news release report today

    Yes, agree news report too vague. No actual facts mentioned.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    sharonki....therein lies the problem. There's not much confidence that Toyota does indeed have the correct fix. Nor, do they seem willing to address the entire scope of the problems, either.

    I don't think there's a lot of confidence in Toyota's supposed fix actually addresses the true cause of the UA and brake issues that have been widely reported.

    It's going to take more than just a simple apology. I think something more tangible is needed here...perhaps substantially extending their warranties. But, that's something they don't seem to be willing to do, at least not yet. I don't see anyway around that, though.

    In every newspaper I've looked at, Toyota's woes are on the front page, almost daily. Every news broadcast I've seen has at least one blurb on Toyota's issues. Not only do they have a safety and quality problem (probably the worst possible problem to have for any car manufacturer....that their cars aren't safe), they also have a perception problem.

    It's going to take a good long while, much longer than it takes to fix their cars to overcome the perception problem.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i'm sure if the manufacturer had provided the answers to the questions you asked, they would have been happy to include it in the story.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Inquiries have halted, says Corolla seller
    Resale values of recalled vehicles drop amid worries

    Many Toyota owners who are trying to sell their cars may have to drop their asking prices.

    Resale values for Toyotas that have been recalled fell by as much as 3% this week, or about $450 on a car valued at $15,000, according to Kelley Blue Book. They could fall further next week if Toyota's quality issues stay in the news.

    And they likely will.

    Next week, Toyota is slated to testify before a congressional committee about the automaker's massive recalls. The federal government also continues to investigate brake issues in the 2010 Toyota Prius hybrid.

    Meanwhile, owners of models that Toyota has told its dealers to stop selling, such as the popular Camry, are finding it tough to attract buyers.

    Todd Oakley, 46, of Jackson, who is trying to sell a 2007 Camry, said he is waiting for the controversy to blow over.

    "We'll still try to sell it," he said. "I'm sure it will take a little extra time."
    Selling a recalled Toyota

    Tony Schepis sees a challenging task in his future: selling a recalled Toyota.

    "I think it's going to be impossible," said Schepis, who owns Schep's Garage in Lansing, where he often sells vehicles for his customers.

    A few inquirers of the green 2009 Toyota Corolla stopped calling after Toyota stopped selling and making eight recalled models last week, including the Corolla.

    "It's been absolutely quiet," said Schepis. "People have backed right off. I think they're waiting to see what's going to come of this."
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    >>>i'm sure if the manufacturer had provided the answers to the questions you asked, they would have been happy to include it in the story.

    I'm considerably less sure about that than you. Unfortunately, Toyota doesn't have the answers either. The media and public demand that they fix a problem that, so far, remains unidentified, or even accurately quantified. So, they're now going about fixing anything that looks even possibly defective, hoping they get lucky.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    >>I think something more tangible is needed here...perhaps substantially extending their warranties.

    I doubt the gesture would accomplish much. People are easily frightened. Nothing short of an end to the reported incidents will likely calm the waters. Publicity alone, though, will generate more reports of problems, whether from jumpy people or real defects we won't know for a long time.

    Yes, it is going to take more than an apology. But absent knowing the cause of the problem, they're in a tough bind.
  • jofallonjofallon Member Posts: 29
    If they'd not been blowing off customer reports of problems like mine, they'd have more to go on. They only started paying attention when they got bad press. On the other hand, if the Prius brake issue is typical, they may well suspect or know exactly where the problems are and just not want to admit it.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    The answer is so simple. Buggy code? Rewrite the code. Yep all of it. Not enough memory? When rewriting the code manufacture a new ECU with enough memory. What's the problem. So what if you have to do it for 10 million cars.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    10 million cars, do you realize what that would cost Toyota? Billions and Billions. There is no way they will spend that kind of money. Whatever it costs you can bet it won't cost over a couple bucks per vehicle plus labor which could cost them hundreds of millions.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Is there an "ignore feature" on these forums so I can automatically ignore posts by certain members?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just scroll on down.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Just scroll on down.

    What? Did someone else post that, too? :blush:

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Better recall that stuck post. :P
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    Unfortunately, Toyota has lost control of the situation and it has turned into a perceived public safety issue.
    They really need to retrofit the 'smart throttle' technology to all their 'DBW' vehicles.
    That's just my own opinion, of course.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    They should give it some serious thought since the Japanese government has been known to subsidize the auto industry regardless if they are profitable or not.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    You may be right. But, as I understand it, DBW makes possible improved mileage and emissions. Going back to "the good old days" may not be practical or even possible. I'm assuming the performance difference between the two systems isn't trivial, since DBW must cost more.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    >>They only started paying attention when they got bad press.

    Since Ford's 2008 NHTSA complaint ratio was roughly double their market share, what are they doing different than Toyota? Are they ignoring, or "blowing off" in your words, the complaints or are they simply stumped, like Toyota?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i guess you misunderstood my post.
    They need to add the 'fail safe' to their 'DBW' vehicles.
    'DBW' is here to stay, has a lot of benefits, and costs less (fewer actual parts).
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    Yes, I'm guilty to reading too quickly. Sorry.

    Some new stories indicate Toyota is moving in that direction. Good, imo.

    I was initially annoyed when confronted with a brake interlock system on a new car I bought, but I understood why it was there.
  • jeffb1124jeffb1124 Member Posts: 13
    Revit, a suggestion.Rather than posting the same stories over and over again do your own investigating. Since you own a Camry, take a video camera out with you and actually show unattended acceleration is not a pedal problem or human error. Prove to the world that Toyota is the evil corporation wanting to kill its customers (and potential repeat customers).

    I do image you'll be on the road for a while so make sure you stock up on food/drinks for your drive (though healthy food/drinks, you don't want a heart attack or stroke while you drive). Also make sure you aren't following too closely to the car in front of you, as when your Camry gets a case of "UA" you won't be able to shift into neutral (why, that's what all the "experts" are saying, and by experts I mean the internet folk) so you'll need the room to shut off your car and get on the brakes. Maybe though the car won't allow you to turn off the ignition, darn electronics!!!! NOW WHAT?????

    Jeez, after thinking about this maybe it isn't such a good idea to do this. Best to stay indoors, make sure though you stay away from the part of your house by a road, don't want a Toyota with "UA" flying through the home hitting you. If you do go out doors make sure you have a cell phone in case you see a case of "UA". Well, maybe not, as cell phone's may cause brain cancer, just stay inside, in a basement if possible. Though make sure you have a radon detector, as radon can cause lung cancer. Also make sure you don't use the computer too much, you don't want to develop carpal tunnel syndrome. Avoid porn sites, you don't want to end up like Tiger W do you?

    If your going to be in your basement until Toyota corrects the "UA" problem make sure you have good lightning, you want to avoid eye strain. If you use those newer Cfl bulbs bulbs be sure to be careful with them. They have a small amount of mercury, if you break one you may become exposed to the mercury, which isn't good for your health. Stay safe Revit, dangerous world with Toyota out there!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    here's a question.
    if i am getting ready to drive a toyota that fell under the recall, or whatever you want to call it, wouldn't it be great to know the fix was applied?
    if they are going to reprogram the computers, how about including something that lets you know it has been applied?
    in reality, i don't think that will work, since after a while it will just remind you that you are about to drive one of 'those' cars.
    i apologize, i am making this up as i go along.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    GM marks the cars with a sticker in a location under the hood. The sticker has the number for the recall/fix performed.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Brilliant man. Brilliant!

    Stay safe revit. We are all awaiting your rerturn. Hope you made it thru the weekend, it's a dangerous world out there with all the runaway Toyotas out there. Be safe! Toyota is out to get you!
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    I'm less worried than you. How many people think Toyota's business model includes dismissing safety as a serious matter? Maybe more than I think, but hopefully less than populate this msg board.

    In the words of the director of automotive testing for Consumer Reports (to paraphrase) the incident of this problem is quite small relative to the number of cars Toyota makes.

    When the NY Times reports 26 incidents of sluggish or sticky accelerator pedals in Europe (but no accidents) they provide only the numerator. We need the denominator to know what's going on. 26 out of what . . . . 10 thousand, 2 million? It makes a difference . . . . . to me anyway.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...great to know..."

    If you have an automatic transmission you MUST use the brakes to release the shifter from the park position. With a DBW failsafe the gas pedal will be inoperative if the brake is even lightly applied.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...Computer memory appears to be too limited.."

    IMMHO it would be patently FOOLISH to use an already suspect engine/transaxle control ECU module and its embedded, even more "suspect" firmware, for implementing a throttle/brake failsafe.

    An alternative implementation MUST be used to implement a truly relaible failsafe.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i thought were were going to work with me on this.
    how can the next buyer of one of 'those' cars feel confident that the car they want to buy has had been 'fixed' with the ECU update?
    there is no physical way to check.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >IMMHO it would be patently FOOLISH to use an already suspect engine/transaxle control ECU module and its embedded, even more "suspect" firmware, for implementing a throttle/brake failsafe.
    >An alternative implementation MUST be used to implement a truly relaible failsafe.

    I agree completely.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    "fixed"

    I figure if the driver's side mat is popriveted to the floor and the bottom third of the gas pedal is missing then the other thing was probably fixed too. :)

    Go Saints

    John
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    >>>how can the next buyer of one of 'those' cars feel confident that the car they want to buy has had been 'fixed' with the ECU update?

    Will not the dealer provide paperwork when the fix is done? If it becomes an issue for buyers, sellers may find they have trouble selling if they haven't saved the receipt.

    Bottom line, a dealer can access repair/warranty history with a VIN number.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i dunno. i'm just putting the question out for consideration.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    February 8, 2010
    Toyota set to recall Prius hybrid over brake failure
    In a further humiliation for the company, the owners of 300,000 cars will be told that their brakes may fail on icy surfaces

    Toyota is to order a humiliating global recall of the Prius — the hybrid electric car which has become the leader of the green motoring revolution.

    In a deepening of the crisis at the world’s largest car manufacturer, Toyota will this week warn 300,000 Prius owners — 3,500 of them in the UK — that the brakes on their car may fail in icy conditions or on bumpy surfaces.

    The news follows hard on last month’s recall of 8 million Toyotas over fears of accelerator pedal defects in several models. In Britain, the owners of 180,000 Toyotas have been told that their cars may have problems which lawyers in the US claim have led to 19 deaths.

    Sources close to the company told The Times that the recall of the third generation Prius, launched last year, will happen within the next 72 hours.


    I don't think this is the kind of Biggest Toyota had in mind. :sick:
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    I love your "fixed" statement. That is about the level of confidence that Toyota is projecting right now. I am reading posts now that the brake override will not be installed on existing vehicles because of lack of computer memory.............or something. Maybe a new black box could be pop riveted on the dash.

    I love my 2007 Avalon, but a reality check started with Toyota's lack of response to the VVTI oil line ruptures, and is continuing. Toyota has not, and will never, put their customer issues first.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Is it over yet?

    Or is this just the beginning of Toyota's fall.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    this was just
    La Times report - remember I said I had not verified the acuracy of report.

    As far as modifiying earlier models - development/engineering. This is what my son does for Porsche, BMW, Audi, Bentley, VW, etc. I am not the expert here, so you may be right if other changes must be made also.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Here is new link to Consumer Reports demonstation - two vehicles with brake override and Toyota and Chey that do not have. Seems like good info for all of us to review and evaluate.

    http://www.lexusreports.com/blog/1037059_toyota-lexus-floor-mat-recall-update-co- nsumer-reports-tests-stuck-accelerators
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cost should not be a factor in Toyota adding a fail safe braking system on ALL their DBW vehicles in a timely fashion. If it costs them a few Billion. They got it in the bank. They been hauling cargo ship loads of US$$$ to Japan for 50 years. Time to give a little back in the name of safety.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Perosn who owns should be able to provide the service center report done at Toyoita. This would state the work wqas done. If they can't provide proof, then would have to logically conclude not done. Smile - unless you want to play detective.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Whoops I just noticed my wireless mouse needs new batteries. Lots of misspelled words in my prior post. This is wierd. Sorry.
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