Postwar Studebakers

uplanderguy · January 2013

As a long-time admirer of Young as a rocker, I thought this was cool to read:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?68095-Neil-Young-amp-Stude- bakers&p=707785

uplanderguy · January 2013

This was posted on a Studebaker forum, about today's "Click and Clack" column. Interesting reading I think, whether you like those guys or not:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?68117-1962-Hawk-Road-Trip-- - Click-amp-Clack

I don't even change my own oil, but I've taken two different Studebakers as far as 250 miles away at one time, and I never broke down. So I'd say it's not an absolute 'given' as Tom and Ray say! Of course, the thing is to be prepared, as they say.

jljac · January 2013

The guys in the article worry too much about the reliability of Studebakers. I made many trips of 200-300 miles (each way) in my 1955 Commander after it was 40 years old and found out about this site because Andys120 posted an image of it at this forum. link title Note how Mr. Shiftright says, "It was a pretty fast car for its day."

That image was taken in 2005 on the 50th anniversary of the James Dean crash at Cholame, California on September 30, 1955. The car was 50 years old when I made that trip and it was 103 degrees when we passed through Bakersfiled, CA on the same route that James Dean took. I made that trip in the Commander five times, while James Dean only made it once in a Porsche, and that was a one-way trip.

I do carry some tools and extra parts (fuel pump, breaker points, water pump, duct tape) only had to use the breaker points on a trip. I also carry a Studebaker Driver's Club roster so I can call someone for help if I break down. It is like having an Auto Club membership.

I also recently posted a picture of the Commander in Las Vegas around 1995. I made at least 5 trips there over the past 15 years, which is 290 miles from my home.. This is an article about my friends from Brea CA, who drove their '55 Commander to the Studebaker meet in South Bend in 2007.link title The only thing the broke down was an electric fuel pump that he added before the trip to stay on the safe side.

uplanderguy · January 2013

A friend in the Studebaker Drivers' Club passed a couple days ago, about 90 miles from here. While finding something to post about him on the club forum, I came across this link from the 2009 old car show in my little hometown of Greenville, PA (the one which I saw the largest industry in town just move away when NAFTA was signed). The fellow had a beautiful '64 Daytona convertible, but also had a handsome, bone-stock low-line Lark Wagonaire, '63, red, which he drove the couple hours up to this show for on that day. He was a great guy.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?23768-Greenville-PA-trip-o- - - - n-Drive-Your-Studebaker-Day&highlight=greenville+car+show

Post no. 22 has a picture of my old Skytop Lark that I really like and had forgotten about...one can see the optional 'tinted glass, all windows' (like old Coke bottles!) in the pic, as well as the brushed-metal air cleaner that was part of the Avanti R1 engine option.

Here's what the front-fender badge looks like--script mimics that on the Avanti--this badge not seen on many Larks or Hawks in '63:

http://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/store/s/agora.cgi?product=misc3c&- - next=60&xm=on

Also in the first link is a pic of the old Studebaker dealer in my hometown. They also sold M-B and in front of me now is a 1958 color 8 by 10 of the building with a new dark green Stude pickup out front, and a neon M-B 'tristar' neon light in the one showroom window.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I've often joked with other Stude guys that the OCPG lists a four-door sedan Cruiser as worth more than a Daytona Hardtop, which is not 'real world' at all. I saw the other day that they also list a "solid roof" Wagonaire as a premium. What a joke! The first thing somebody says when they want a Studebaker wagon of that era is, "it has to be a 'slider'"!

uplanderguy · January 2013

jl, I remember seeing that very yellow '55 Commander outside the Studebaker National Museum in '07. Even then I heard the buzz that an older fellow from CA had driven it the whole way out.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Beautiful restored-as-factory specimen, serial no. 1004 (fourth production car)--sold for $74.8K:

http://www.goodingco.com/car/1963-studebaker-avanti

fintail · January 2013

I wonder how much more than that it cost to restore.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Good point. There's a lot more NOS and reproduction stuff available for Studebakers than a lot of folks think, though, but still...that looks to me to be a top-notch restoration.

The photographer must have had the camera about laying on the ground, but on a white car, the lack of grille from that angle is unattractive I think. Just walking around the car, you wouldn't notice. Still, later '63's had a grille installed there.

For a long time, I didn't like the square glass headlight covers of the '64 model or the woodgrain wheel and trim inside, but then a friend got one last year and from the photos, I'm thinking maybe I like the '64 better. But I'll see a clean '63 like this and my mind changes again. I don't know.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Man, I just 'bit' to register for free to see the rest of that Avanti's pics, and I am in love! I don't believe I've seen one as completely authentic as that, other than one shown by a fellow named Richard Vaux--a turquoise '64 that he had at South Bend this year--and he is an authenticity expert supposedly.

That interior is not red under a light, it's the factory orange interior!

That got discontinued somewhere in the '63 run. I know a gold car with that interior not real far from here!

uplanderguy · January 2013

Found a pic of Richard Vaux and his very authentic '64 Avanti in Turquoise, image no. 32:

http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2011/10/01/hmn_feature6.html#PhotoSwipe13586- 84666982

I know they're not practical, but I love seeing bias-plys on old cars!

jljac · January 2013

Here is an excellent slide show of the white Studebaker Avanti owned by Dick Van [non-permissible content removed]. http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/dick-van-[non-permissible content removed]-s-studebaker-avanti-at-los-angel- es-county-art-museum . It seems to have his original California license plates on it. It has the burgundy red interior. The one I owned looked just like it.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I knew that Dick Van [non-permissible content removed] had owned an Avanti, and a clip I've seen of him at Stan Laurel's funeral ('65 I believe) shows him climbing into a Jaguar XK-E.

I've said this before, but I wish they would've put the smallest emblem on the front fender of the R1 Avanti. My eyes are always drawn right there. I like the small 'Supercharged' emblems the R2's have there.

fintail · January 2013

At least 50K into a restoration anyway, plus price of original car. It's not common for relatively affordable cars (five figures anyway) to make money in restoration.

The round lights remind me of owl's eyes, but the square lights remind me of 70s era cars.

jljac · January 2013

"For a long time, I didn't like the square glass headlight covers of the '64 model or the woodgrain wheel and trim inside. . ."

I have changed my mind back and forth on whether I like round or square head light covers better. On one hand, the Avanti-X and reproductions seem to favor the round headlights, on the other hand, the square headlights had more influence on cars that came later, as shown by the example below:

omarman · January 2013

That Merkur is more Ford of Europe influence and not so much domestic inspiration. Although the 1939 Mopars may have been the first big Detroit nameplates to do square headlights.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Richard Carpenter has a black '63 R2 Avanti. I like the Avanti in black but they are rarely seen. They made them for a while, then discontinued it and replaced the color with Avanti Grey (charcoal), and later reintroduced black as a $35 option (supposedly more work involved in getting a decent fiberglass finish in black). Mr. Carpenter's car is a fairly early specimen without the grille below the front bumper (but being black, hides it better than the lighter color cars IMHO):

http://www.richardandkarencarpenter.com/Auto-14%201963%20Studebaker%20Avanti.htm-

jljac · January 2013

I selected an image of a Ford-Mercury Merkur because it looks so much like an Avanti with the square headlights and no chrome grille in front. If the Merkur looks like some other car from the early 1960s, I would like to know what that car is. Maybe I should have chosen an image of a 1986 Buick Skyhawk (I wonder what might have inspired that name?).

If you go back far enough, you can find an early example of any type of design that somebody did, but few took notice and it did not catch on at the time. For example, the overhead camshaft engine was first used in an 1898 Wilkinson, so I guess we should all thank Mr. Wilkinson for that idea or we would now all be driving around in vehicles that have flathead, and/or OHV engines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_superlatives

fintail · January 2013

I am not a big fan of black cars, as it is such a PITA to keep clean, and shows every flaw. Was there a nice light-medium blue for older Avantis?

jljac · January 2013

Was there a nice light-medium blue for older Avantis?

I agree that black and dark blue cars are hard to keep clean. Ian Flemming ordered a black one and it took a lot of time to finish the paint and body. Dealers were discouraged from ordering them in that color.

The only blue for Avantis was the light aqua blue one shown in the earlier post for Avantis, but I like that color, and it was popular

After seeing that picture again, I am back to favoring the round headlights over the square ones.

fintail · January 2013

Oh, that's perfect, that's what I would pick. Nice wide whites, too.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Actually, that car's probably a pre-production model, as Avantis weren't built with wide whites, but with narrow-white Firestone 500's. My Daytona R1 was built with optional Firestone 500's too per the build sheet.

"Avanti Turquoise" is probably my overall favorite Avanti color, with black being second.

jljac · January 2013

The Motor Trend Magazine is dated July 1962, which means is was probably published in June based on information available in May. The rear view mirrior is not the one used in production either. Before production began Studebaker decided to glue a small one to the windshield, and others followed that idea. The magazine cover marks the point in time when wide white walls were becoming obsolete.

It seemed that Studebaker was getting the early jump on the competiton with the early release of the Avanti, but with the early production problems, that advantage turned into a liability. It was a case of bad timing with the first Sting Ray and Buick Riveria being introduced the same model year. Avanti production did not reach its highest point until January-February 1963, and it was downhill after that.

The Chrysler Airflow and Cord 810 had similar stories. Early introduction of a radically different car at a New York auto show, big publicity followed by few cars to sell. Ford did not make that mistake with the first Mustang introduced two years after the Avanti.

fintail · January 2013

I was thinking maybe Stude used wide whites late, as MB did - through model year 1964. But for something new and fresh like an Avanti, they had plenty of reason to adapt the new style.

jljac · January 2013

I was thinking maybe Stude used wide whites late, as MB did - through model year 1964

Sorry, but I don't think that happened. If it happened at all, it happened very early because I do not believe Studebaker delivered cars with wide white wall tires in 1963. I collected plenty of literature and factory photos of Avantis during my 45 years in the Studebaker Drivers Club, (I joined when I was 15 years old) but the only time I saw a wide white wall tires from the era when they were built was on the cover of Motor Trend Magazine. I have seen a few being shipped with black wall tires, but that was rare. Just Google "Factory images of 1963 Studebaker Avanti" and you will see Avantis almost always looking like this.

I believe that if you took an Avanti to a Studebaker meet with wide whitewall tires, the judges would take off points. What do you say Uplanderguy? I really like the look of those Avantis and am back to lovin' the round headlight covers.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Stude's '62 Larks and Hawks and Champ pickups were the last to use the wider whitewalls. In '63 they went to a narrow band. Most of the U.S. industry went to narrow whites in the '62 model year.

JL, I have a book with that very pic in it. I'd love to just saunter through that room with today's money and pick one out to bring back with me! I heard that when South Bend shut down (Dec. '63), there were new Studes of all models, body styles, and engines and options in storage lots around the city. How'd I love to pick an Avanti, Daytona convertible, Gran Turismo Hawk, Champ 1/2 ton long-bed pickup, and one-ton Diesel Transtar to bring back with me. Ah, it's sweet to dream! I was only 5 1/2 when that shutdown occurred, and my Dad never looked at Studebakers, that I know!

I'm convinced that at a Studebaker Drivers' Club meet, one would lose points in judging with an Avanti with wide whites.

jljac · January 2013

This image of the Avanti was one of the earliest that was issued in Aptil 1962 to introduce the Avanti to the public. It is so early that the car has no rear view mirriors and the Avanti script on the front has been added to the image. Motor Trend got it wrong when they put the wide white walls on the Avantis on the cover of the magazine. It's just that simple.

I am adding this to my post. An expert can tell within a three or four month period of time when an Avanti was built by the location and size of the rear view mirrior stuck on the windshield. It started out too small and located too low, then the size increased, then they moved it higher, then they increased the size again and seemed to move it down a bit. I have seen so many variations. Mine was built in February 1963 and it had the larger mirrior but located too low to see out the back window very well. My friend had one that had a smaller mirrior and located even lower on the windshield.

fintail · January 2013

Oh yeah, I am not doubting the actual production car never wore wide whites - I was just saying if it did, it might be linked to the MB connection, as Stude and MB had their little connection back then. The car looks too modern for wide whites anyway, kind of like early E-types I have seen wearing them, it looks odd.

imidazol97 · January 2013

>within a three or four month period of time when an Avanti was built by the location and size of the rear view mirrior stuck on the windshield.

That's interesting. I enjoy all the info about these cars.

jljac · January 2013

JL, I have a book with that very pic in it.

What is the name of that book? I must have missed that one. I just found that image today looking for factory photos with tires to show they were never wide whitewalls. I would like a book with more of those photos. I looked at that image quite a few times today still amazed at the beautiful lines of that car.

uplanderguy · January 2013

It's called "Avanti--Studebaker and Beyond" by John Hull, and can be bought reasonably on Amazon.com. There are a lot of production line and factory photos of Studebaker Avantis in there.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I think maybe we've talked about this before, but when you bought a '63 Stude with whitewalls that weren't Firestone 500's, you got a narrow whitewall that went right up to the wheel, and I think M-B used a similar whitewall:

http://www.ritzsite.nl/63Stude/1963_Studebaker_Lark_Cruiser.JPG

BTW, that's my favorite four-door Studebaker. If you got the optional broadcloth interior, the seat trim was right up there with Cadillac, although the exterior size and character were decidedly European.

BTW, that dealer postcard was photographed out at the Studebaker Proving Ground, about 15 miles west of South Bend on Rt. 2. I can tell by the brick fenceposts, which are still there when you drive by.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Bosch now operates the track and buildings at the old Studebaker Proving Ground, and when I was last there in '07 they were testing some type of VW I had never seen before. They allowed us on the track with a Studebaker which was great fun.

Amazingly, there are still Studebaker prototypes abandoned on the grounds there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luOtiRTDf_g

fintail · January 2013

I don't know if I have seen a MB whitewall just like that, but they did use a wider whitewall that went up to the wheel, which I guess is kind of unique. MB changed directly, no medium width either - in 1964 they were still using 50s looking tires, then in 1965, jumped right to the modern thin whitewalls.

I think there is a definite MB influence in that Stude, too.

Here's a company that sells correct tires for old MB - I might treat my car to a set of these this year, as the tires on it date to when Clinton was still in office.

omarman · January 2013

European influence with aero body styling and glass covered headlights doesn't get more obvious than the Citroen DS. Aside from that I was pointing out that the U.S. market Merkur/Scorpio were variants of Ford's Sierra platform. The old square headlight Avanti had no more trendsetting influence in auto design than the 1939 Mopars I linked to.

uplanderguy · January 2013

It's a matter of opinion of course, but I do think most would agree that the Avanti is more critically respected, and always has been, than a '39 Mopar...shown in art museums, owned by creator of James Bond and other celebs alike when it was a pretty low-production car built by an old, old U.S. company, and it did absolutely throw the USAC record book away when it was at Bonneville. This isn't just me, it's all documented stuff. The fact that Studebaker built demand when it couldn't produce nearly enough finished cars, plus the constant news reports that Studebaker was on its last leg, doomed it.

No other U.S. car at the time had disc brakes, and I'm scratching my head trying to think of how many others at the time had a quadrant P-R-N-D-2-1 that permitted manual shifting of an automatic, too.

I think the only U.S. car that might have beat it to curved side glass was the Lincoln Continental.

uplanderguy · January 2013

There's definitely M-B influence in the '62 and '63 Larks and Cruisers, for sure I think. I clicked the link for the tire site and I see in '63, anyway, Stude even cribbed the white trim on the wheelcovers from M-B.

Those tires are expensive, but not as bad as I thought. Sure gives you the authentic look.

If your current tires are that old, I hope you're not doing too much highway driving! My '64 came to me with '94-dated tires, and they were hard as rocks even though they showed a lot of tread and no sidewall cracking. I've been scared enough by stories over the years, and advice from folks supposedly in the know, that I won't go over ten years on a set of tires on an old car anymore. My Skytop's tires were bought in '03 (back when I could find 195-75-15's locally; they looked great IMHO and were very, very close to original size) and for the last couple years (before I sold it), I was getting a side-to-side 'waddle' from the rears at low speeds.

bhill2 · January 2013

I'm scratching my head trying to think of how many others at the time had a quadrant P-R-N-D-2-1 that permitted manual shifting of an automatic, too.

That brought back a question that I wanted to ask. Did the '2' position lock the transmission in second gear or did it just lock out third gear? That is, if you came to a stop with the transmission in the '2' position would it remain in second when you started up again or would it start in first and shift into second but not into third? The reason I ask is during that period the Ford cruise-o-matic had two 'Drive' positions with one of them providing a start in second gear. It was advertised as being for starting on slippery surfaces. My dad's '64 Rambler he same thing.

fintail · January 2013

The grille and the greenhouse, while far from identical, are similar enough to not be pure coincidence. Makes sense with the partnership. Did Stude ever used body color coded hubcaps?

I rarely take the old car on the highway much - a couple times a year, under an hour's drive - and it still concerns me. I'd like to take a small trip in it this summer, but not on the current tires. The car lives in a dry place and the tires are maintained, but age has to take its toll - and the fronts wear a little funny, likely due to some suspension component wear. I will have it inspected this spring, and hope to have new tires this summer. Radial wide whites are never cheap.

fintail · January 2013

My fintail, and MB for decades (maybe even your W126) have second gear start - I can select first with the kickdown button under the gas pedal, but it is not a smooth shift. The car can also be started up from the off position in second.

bhill2 · January 2013

Mine starts in first. But that brings up a point relevant to my last post. The positions D-3-2-1 all start in first but lock out the gears above the selection.

berri · January 2013

Citroen DS

Still a very attractive looking car IMHO

berri · January 2013

'39 Mopar.

Were they still making the Airflow models then? If so, maybe they get some attention because of the historical significance of those cars for their time? Personally, I look at cars like music, don't car about history, just what I like! Then again I like some weird ones like the 59 Impala or 62 downsized Mopars

. Maybe just because they were a little different, or maybe because they remind me of something, someone or sometime. I think enjoyment should drive these kind of decisions.

fintail · January 2013

Is your car able to be switched into second gear start? I had a 300SE that was second gear start only, as well. Euro models had a switchable unit.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I'm relatively certain that the automatic floor-shift trans in the Avanti and optional on Larks and Hawks, could be held in whatever gear the selector was in (1 or 2) if desired. If put in "D", it started from a stop in second gear.

My Lark had a bench seat and had the Flightomatic auto trans (P-N-D-L-R). It was also a three-speed automatic that started from a stop in second, although there was a way to get a 1-2-3 shift that involved shifting from L to D then back, which I was always somewhat scared to try.

Studebaker six-cylinder automatics had first-gear start in "D".

uplanderguy · January 2013

Did Stude ever used body color coded hubcaps?

No, but the '63 Lark and Cruiser full wheelcovers had a broad band of white on them, no matter what exterior color the rest of the car was.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Received via email from Hagerty Insurance yesterday--since we were discussing the Avanti at Barrett-Jackson here:

http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/Features/News/All-Articles- /2013/01/17/Studebaker-Avanti-Turns-50?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&u- tm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Hagerty%20Weekly%20News%2001-21-2013

lemko · January 2013

Did Checker taxicabs use the old Studebaker wheelcovers?

They look a lot like the ones used on the Lark.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Sharp eye, lemko! They did indeed use former Studebaker wheel covers.

International also used Stude's '64 and '65 full wheelcovers (a favorite of mine) into the '70's:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-International-Pickup-Truck-Brochure-/350138831699

Checkers are so goofy, I enjoy them too although they are rarely seen. They were made in Kalamazoo, MI.

fintail · January 2013

There are a few Checkers hanging around my area, even a couple wagons. One of the wagons is pretty mint looking, and has to be restored.

Postwar Studebakers

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