Postwar Studebakers

uplanderguy · January 2013

In late '80 or early '81, with my first 'real' job, I had to travel to Kalamazoo to surprise-audit some of our stores. Back then, in that town, you saw Checkers with vinyl tops, whitewalls and wire wheelcovers driving around.

Sadly, I've never ridden in one. I'd like to fix that someday.

Speaking of Checker, I recall reading an article about Nate Altman, the Studebaker dealer who revived Avanti in South Bend. Before he decided to get financing himself, he approached the President of Checker, Morris Markin, about Checker building the Avanti on their line. Markin said, "How can you expect us to build a car as ugly as the Avanti?".

Altman was incensed...in the article he said, "Can you believe that? They build the Checker Marathon!".

And the rest is history, for both companies.

jljac · January 2013

I remember riding in Checker cabs when I was a little kid visiting my grandmother in Chicago. (She was the only one in the family who would call a cab because she was the only adult who did not drive.) They had small fold able "jump" seats on the floor as seen below. I liked riding in my own seat. That would probably be illegal today as so many things are.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Cool; I've always heard they had jump seats but I've never seen one.

I remember a bit of an oddball guy in our town having a big-bumper, russet-colored Checker Marathon. I spoke to him at Lloyd Lee's Arco station about it, and he said he picked it up at the factory in Kalamazoo. I saw him driving it around town a few times more, then maybe five years later saw it on the "make me an offer" used-car lot of the Pontiac dealer. I don't know what happened to it afterwards.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I wonder how much more than that it cost to restore.

In re-reading the description, it was about a ten-year-old restoration, although was freshened up, so to speak, to 'present well' for the auction, whatever precisely that means.

I just love that particular car.

I wouldn't say you couldn't give me a Mustang or Camaro, but you could...upon which I'd promptly sell it and buy something a little more unique.

fintail · January 2013

I have nothing against Mustangs or Camaros either, but I too prefer something uncommon. I don't like pulling up beside myself at a light or a show.

uplanderguy · January 2013

You've probably experienced this too, but I loved at a local cruise-in a couple years ago, two guys just kept coming back and back to my white sunroof Lark Daytona. Just kept saying, "I've never seen one". That's neat. Generalizing is bad, I know, but I've met more than one '57 Chevy or GTO owner who've either said, or stopped just short of saying, "why would you want one of those?". Dolts!

fintail · January 2013

At the local MBCA show last year, an old lady was really taken by my car, probably because of the color and its relative oddity. I usually get old timers talking to me about it, those who remember the cars from back in the day, and haven't seen one in a long time. I've been the only fintail at every local annual MB show I've attended.

I've had curious questions about my car, most of those in normal cars haven't seen something like mine, I think the fins catch their eye. They are usually shocked about the fuel injection.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I didn't know fintails were fuel-injected, that is indeed neat.

What exactly is the official model number of a fintail? I'll have to ask my old dealer friend if he sold any at his place.

He said they'd get Benz owners from 15 or 25 miles away as they had a good reputation for Benz service--their head mechanic went to South Bend to take Benz classes and was an excellent mechanic (I still see this guy once or twice a year, too--the mechanic). It was a small little dealer in a small, non-suburb town, but the family owned the place for forty-two years--'26 to '68.

fintail · January 2013

I guess it is on topic, as Stude dealers also sold fintails for a few years :shades:

Most fintails don't have FI, but those with an "SE" badge do, those being the higher models. Fintails are on platforms W110 (190/190D/200/200D/230), W111 (220, 220S, 220SE, 230S), and W112 (300SE). W110 cars are the ones with 2 big round headlights, W111-112 cars will have quad lights or flush Euro units, W112 cars were top of the line models with air suspension. The W111 cars were introduced in 1959, with W110 and W112 cars in 1961. In 1965, the W112 was phased out, the 190 became the 200, 220 series carb cars became 230 cars, and the higher models were moved to the new W108 platform. The coupes starting in 1961 are also W111/112 cars and are considered part of the fintail family - even though they have only little bumps for fins, MB realizing by 1961 that the fin fad had passed. But they kept them on sedans until the very end. Highline fintail sedan production ended in the summer of 1965, lowline cars were made until January 1968, coupes until 1971.

I suspect these cars sold more in small towns than MB does today - as the target market was different. These were mostly not luxurious or flashy cars, tending to attract engineers, doctors, professors, tech buffs, etc - and they weren't terribly expensive.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Thanks for the details; I think best thing is to send him a pic!

I'll find one online.

He kids me that I know more about Studes than he does, yet he'll correct me on something once in a while and he's right!

He told me once he and his wife brought 'an expensive' (?) M-B back for a customer, from the docks at NYC and it had a column-mounted 4-speed automatic that ended up being troublesome. He also told me he either drove or rode in a gullwing at a dealer show at Seven Springs, PA, and his Dad had a 180 (black with red interior) that he very much enjoyed. I have a pic of it here.

When I was at the archives of the Studebaker National Museum a couple years back, they had very detailed records of retail sale information from Sept. '63 'til the end. I was surprised to see two or three cards showing M-B's traded on new Studes at his dealership in that time period. Back then, I think folks bought the dealership as much as the car.

My friend told me eventually M-B pulled their franchise for low volume, which is understandable in a town that size that had every single other domestic franchise.

I do remember a 190 convertible driven by our high school nurse who was an older lady but quite a character. He did sell her and her husband that car and serviced it. It was a grayish-blue, not unlike your fintail now that I think about it.

Sorry for the lack of detail in my descriptions of the cars...years passing and relaying info others told me might not make them very accurate!

fintail · January 2013

I wonder how many old Stude fans have some MB knowledge simply via the old partnership.

An expensive MB with a troublesome automatic would probably be an "Adenauer" car, the large 300 series sedan with kind of baroque/prewar styling, that was made through 1963 but sold in any numbers mostly through 1960 or so. Before MB had its own automatic, it used Borg-Warner units, and I think these weren't the best. I think in 1962, MB introduced their first in-house automatic, the weird fluid coupling unit that my car has. It is not the smoothest and it has weird shift points, but it is very durable - I can't say I have seen a dead one.

There was also a clutchless automatic called a "Hydrak" (hydraulic clutch). These were troublesome, but mostly via user error - you had to lift off while shifting, and not doing so would eventually break the system. Hydrak survivor cars are quite rare today.

I can see period MBs not lasting well in rust belt kind of areas - the cars were poorly rustproofed, and probably would have dissolved on upper midwest/new england roads if not really maintained well (the Germans just sand everything rather than use a lot of salt). Probably some trade ins when the first bubbles appeared.

190SLs are a funny thing - all show and no go. The 4cyl engine is not fast nor smooth, but they are pretty, and for some, a budget 300SL. In the past decade, prices have gone through the roof, the best of the best easily going into 6 figure territory now.

Some pics -

Here's an first series Adenauer:

And a second series (1957+) car, a hardtop that was somewhat striking with the windows down:

There was also a cabrio/phaeton style model:

Very much a prewar style car with its functional landau bars:

And here's a 180 like that guy's dad had:

fintail · January 2013

Re-reading my old post, I meant "clutchless manual", of course :shades:

On the tire topic, I found a pic of this obviously restored beautiful later (63-65) fintail with correct tires. These are what my car will get. The "automatic" badge is funny - I think it might have been an extra cost option (everything is/was on a MB), as I have seen many automatic cars without it, including my own. Maybe something for Europe of the period, where an automatic was something of a status symbol:

uplanderguy · January 2013

Thanks for the pics. The pic I have of my dealer friend's Dad's 180 had wide whites and I think a full wheelcover but I'm out-of-town with work this week so don't have it near me.

I remember seeing at swap meets a New York Times insert from '58 that had all the Studebaker, Packard, and M-B cars in it. Here's one that was on eBay and an "Adenauer" is on the front page:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Packard-Mercedes-Benz-Studebaker-NY-Times-Insert-/1- 60896874917?nma=true&si=wnVJRBL%252F9u9PQuHIkrSQQhSO8ts%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=n- c&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

fintail · January 2013

A 180 would have came standard with just hubcaps and blackwalls, but the dealer could have upgraded the appearance. The "S" models had the full wheelcovers (actually a 2 piece ring and hubcap until the late 60s).

That's a cool ad, funny to think a lower line Stude and something worth a healthy 6 figures today like a 300SL would have been sold at the same place. I suspect the Adenauer sold to people who liked the baroque-ness of a Rolls, but not the price tag.

jljac · January 2013

Before MB had its own automatic, it used Borg-Warner units, and I think these weren't the best. I think in 1962, MB introduced their first in-house automatic, the weird fluid coupling unit that my car has.

Studebaker dealers would not have had any problem servicing the "Borg Warner" automatic transmission because it was the same transmission sold as "Studebaker Automatic Drive" between 1950 and 1956 when Studebaker switched to the Ford automatic transmission and Borg Warner set up production of the same transmission in England where it was also used in Jaguars. Servicing the MB fuel injection system was a bigger problem because that was completely new to the dealers and quite complex to service.

Just think, in 1958 if you wanted to buy a car with painted wheel covers you could go to the Studebaker-Packard-Mercedes Benz dealer where you could buy a Mercedes Benz or a Studebaker Scotsman. I am not knocking the MB painted wheel covers, I think they look good.

fintail · January 2013

I wonder if MB chose B-W for the automatic because of the Studebaker link? Were the Stude wheel covers body color?

I have to imagine a mechanic seeing a FI engine for the first time would be taken aback by it a bit - the mechanical FI systems have a lot of plumbing, and the direct injection (300SL, first production car with it) must have seemed like something from the future.

bhill2 · January 2013

I wonder if MB chose B-W for the automatic because of the Studebaker link?

A lot of european cars (Japanese too, I think) used the Borg-Warner automatic for us lazy shiftless (pun intended) Americans, as well as similarly shiftless domestic buyers. I think that Volvo used them at least into the mid-70s and probably even later.

uplanderguy · January 2013

A Studebaker of that era that has brought large cash in the past few years at the auctions (proving to me that it's not an anomaly) is the Golden Hawk. One brought over $100K a year or two ago at auction, and there have been at least a couple that have crept towards six-figures. I really don't even like them, other than they are so very different than anything else built in the 'States then.

Until these Golden Hawk auction figures, Packard Hawks (love 'em or hate 'em) usually brought the most money, condition-for-condition, of all the Hawks. I'd prefer a '64 Gran Turismo Hawk with blower and 4-speed myself..but it has to have all the gauges, factory FM, and the half-vinyl top too.

BTW, the photo I have of my dealer friend's Dad's 180 has whitewalls like the pics of the fintails you've shown...wide, but not 'gansta' wide, and touching the wheel.

fintail · January 2013

I suppose that's good money for something so odd. I could see it in a Packard Hawk, just for the oddity and rarity. Style wise, I would agree with your later GT car. Those late cars were kind of European in a way. Nowadays, the 300SL roadster in that ad can hit 500K+++, and gullwings getting into 7 figures.

I don't know if MB ever officially used the super wide wheel-to-ground whitewalls of the late 40s-early 50s. Seeing these pics has me itching to get new tires for my car - gotta do it this year.

fintail · January 2013

Were they troublesome in other applications?

bhill2 · January 2013

It is my memory that they were pretty reliable. However, they were often not well suited to the engines they were connected to, so the performance was greatly compromised relative to the stick shift model. I had a chance to directly evaluate this in one application. My father had a '68 Volvo 144 with the BW automatic and my sister had the same car with a stick. There was no comparison. My sister's car wasn't a rocket, but my father's car would have struggled to pull a champagne cork out the bottle. I actually bent the accelerator pedal on that car trying to make it get out of its own way.

fintail · January 2013

Was it kind of a universal model mated to many varied cars? Maybe suited better to higher torque/domestic style applications.

jljac · January 2013

"I wonder if MB chose B-W for the automatic because of the Studebaker link? "

My 1955 Commander has the Borg Warner/Studebaker transmission and I used to get it serviced at a shop that specialized in rebuilding old Jaguar transmissions. The last time I got a new torque converter the mechanic who rebuilt them for many years said that the transmission was also used in US postal vehicles and he got parts from that source. My car used the same torque converter but he had to change the ring gear.

I like the transmission because it has 3 speeds and is easy to get it to start in first gear, although the early ones started in second gear unless you shifted to low. Since I only have 259 cu. inches, with 15 inch over size tires, I need the low gear to get the engine revs up before I get any power.

It is easy to control the shifting points by letting up on the gas pedal briefly and there is a throttle control rod under the car that connects to the gas pedal I can adjust to choose what speeds I would like the shifts to take place. When others drive the car, they usually feather foot the gas pedal, and it shifts too early, because you have to tell it what to do and keep the pedal down until you want it to shift. If you know what you are doing it works very well. To quote an Englishman who wrote a review at the time, "If one drives like a clot, the transmission behaves like a double-clot."

It has direct drive in third gear and gets very good gas mileage It is air cooled by fins on the torque converter, so overheating the engine does not affect the transmission.

The one thing I do not like about it is that on steep hills with a speed limit of 40 mph or less, it shifts from second to third gear when I would like to hold it in second gear. Long uphill drives (like Whitney Portal Road in Long Pine, California) result in shifting back and forth between second and third gear although I would rather hold it in second gear. Then too, maybe I should not be driving a 50+year old car to the highest point in the continental United States.

One of the biggest mistakes Studebaker made was not permitting Ford to also build it in 1950 when Ford asked to share it. It the Studebaker automatic became too expense to build for Studebaker alone, so they adopted the Ford transmission in 1957.

texases · January 2013

The Wagonaire in Automobile

uplanderguy · January 2013

Thanks for posting. I've seen Malcolm Berry's white R2 Wagonaire several times over the years. He put whitewalls and the stock wheels and wheelcovers on for this article, apparently. The seats are reupholstered, and production of '66 Studebakers was nearly twice what the article mentioned, but still a great article for folks like me who appreciate the final Studebakers.

bhill2 · January 2013

Was it kind of a universal model mated to many varied cars? Maybe suited better to higher torque/domestic style applications.

It was indeed a universal model (Type 35). I think the primary problem was that it was not adapted to engines that needed to rev to create torque. Most domestic engines produced significant torque at low revs. The big problem in my dad's car was that it took forever for the torque converter to transmit any to the gear set.

fintail · January 2013

That would explain it. Old I6 MBs have to be revved a bit to get going, too.

uplanderguy · January 2013

I'm home looking at the one pic I have of my dealer friend's Dad's old 180, and it is much-more trimmed than the black 180 you showed in the earlier posting. His car had two horizontal strips of chrome near the rocker panels, a strip running along the crease on the front fender and onto the door, and a strip that outlines (mostly) the bulge of the rear fender. It has two round spotllights low on the front and two bumper guards. It has the black hubcaps with tri-star emblem, and a trim ring. Either his was an upgraded model or he added those accessories himself.

fintail · January 2013

Oh, that would be a 6 cylinder car, with all the chrome, probably a 220S or 220SE ponton. While they resemble the 4 cylinder cars, they are on different platforms, and are larger. While possible to add all the trim to a 4 cylinder car, I doubt it would have been done.

Here's a lovely 220SE ponton sunroof model next to a nice sunroof fintail

uplanderguy · January 2013

Except for no Skytop...er.., sunroof!...that pic looks exactly like Mr. Filer's car. For some reason I thought it was a 180 but I'm sure his son told me at some point it was a 220. Thanks for clarifying. As my daughter would say, sorry for being such a 'noob' about the cars! LOL

fintail · January 2013

They look similar, pontons are easy to confuse. There was the smaller 4cyl car, the larger 6cyl car, and a weird mix car, the 219, which was a 6cyl nose and engine on a 4cyl body. Kind of like the 230 fintail, which had the base 6cyl engine in a 4cyl W110 body.

bhill2 · January 2013

I'll be darned. I always thought that the 219 was a decontented 220. You learn something new every day. You are a veritable fount of Mercedes information, Fin.

fintail · February 2013

I know a little, but don't consider myself a real expert :shades:

It was an unloved model, too.

uplanderguy · February 2013

...of my favorite Studebaker model of all (not necessarily this color, but equipment-wise, yes):

http://www.autominded.net/brochure/studebaker/64%20Stude%2020.jpg

There was one that looked, and was equipped, just like this at the Hershey show several years back, and his paperwork from the Studebaker National Museum showed it was built for the Auto Show circuit and was an early serial number. Beautiful supercharged, Powershift, disc brake example.

The hood was tricky--inside release, pull it before lifting up, and the big chrome grille and surround was attached to the hood and went up with it, looking like Jerry Lewis in "The Nutty Professor" when open!

uplanderguy · February 2013

my favorite model year of all, for Studebaker, and the last built in the U.S.:

http://www.autominded.net/brochure/studebaker/64%20Stude%2019.jpg

uplanderguy · February 2013

http://www.autominded.net/brochure/studebaker/64%20Stude%2003.jpg

uplanderguy · February 2013

http://www.autominded.net/brochure/studebaker/64%20Stude%2021.jpg

The other pages are all mechanical drawings, not as dramatic as photos I think.

uplanderguy · February 2013

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?68805-62-Lark-in-My-Three-- - Sons-Episode

I don't like how the Lark owner seems like such a phony, but the car is interesting and I'm surprised with Pontiac sponsoring the show, a Lark is featured so prominently. Guess by '67 Studebaker couldn't complain much.

The Lark must be a four-speed by the way the father reaches to the floor to shift.

jljac · February 2013

I'm surprised with Pontiac sponsoring the show, a Lark is featured so prominently.

I do not know who sponsored that show in 1967 because it had a run of more than ten years, but in the early years it was sponsored by Chevrolet. I remember that because at the end of the show the credits would run with different Chevrolets driving down the road as seen below.

uplanderguy · February 2013

I remember always seeing light blue metallic Pontiac Catalina Safari wagons from '65 through at least '68 as the Douglas' family car. In the early '70's, I seem to remember seeing Mercury wagons so the sponsorship must have changed. I'm thinking the show changed networks in the last couple years of programming (it went off the air in '72).

fintail · February 2013

Some of these might be past the project car stage:

50 Studebakers lost in fire

uplanderguy · February 2013

I heard about that. Sad. I haven't read much about it; I'll have to do that.

jljac · February 2013

A sad situation. It reminds me of the tornado that ripped through Jon Myers garage and storage reported here earlier.

uplanderguy · February 2013

I'm loving this, because I've never seen a '64 Stude commercial before...'63's, yes, but not '64's.

I know the base Studebaker line was the one extensively restyled for '64, but not a mention of the Hawk, Avanti, or full truck line in this commercial though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_S0RMN6NWM

I'm assuming that's the Proving Ground track about 15 miles west of South Bend on U.S. 2. I've driven my old white '63 Lark Daytona Skytop R1 on that three-mile track once....at a meet there. It was great fun. The Proving Ground is operated by Bosch now.

uplanderguy · February 2013

Here's one that includes the Avanti, but not Hawk nor trucks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kww0lKx-xjE

I know this was probably filmed in August '63, but I'm astounded at the mismatch of the shade of color on the LF fender of that four-door sedan!

jljac · February 2013

I suspect that there are very few 1964 commercials because Studebaker may have decided to stop its sponsorship of the Mr. ED TV show, which lasted until 1966. The television season and the model year both begin in September, so Studebaker would have committed to a 9 month TV season if it intended to sponsor the show for the 1964 season there should be more commercials. I do not find it unusual that they have a commercial that is only about Larks. I have seen many of those.

uplanderguy · February 2013

You're probably right about the connection to Mr. Ed for the '64 model year.

Even the second commercial I posted shows the Avanti, but nothing about the Hawk or trucks.

The second one seems to be very intent on showing the new square headlight enclosures on the Avanti.

I think Studebaker did a great job on the '64's...modern styling, disc brakes available, dual master cylinder on the drum brakes, P-R-N-D-2-1 automatics available, superchargers, very nice interiors, full instrumentation, etc. IMHO only, park a Falcon or Valiant or Chevy II next to a '64 Studebaker and the Studebaker seems more contemporary by today's standards. I know that Automotive News overlayed a '77 Caprice when new, with a '64 Studebaker and interior-to-exterior proportions were pretty similar, although the four-door Stude's wheelbase was three inches shorter (the two-door, seven inches shorter).

uplanderguy · February 2013

7 1/2 min. silent film, showing the current Studebaker and M-B products on display, plus President Sherwood H. Egbert, puffing a cigar in places in the film, Chairman of the Board Clarence Francis, and even Andy Granatelli at about 3:12.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6LpuZEPzx4

uplanderguy · February 2013

I'm loving this, as I'd not seen this film before....obviously a promotional piece for Ashland Oil and Valvoline ("Studebaker Record Test Runs, Powered by Ashland Gasoline and Protected by Valvoline"). Not-very-subtle product placement at around 1:20, 2:02, and 2:14 (although I love the Studebaker Champ with whitewalls and "Hot Rod" magazine on the door at 2:14).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAYrKW1vxjc

That Avanti in the video, number 9, was on prominent display at the Studebaker National Museum during the International Meet last summer, still wearing its Halibrand mag wheels and looking remarkably unchanged from this video.

texases · March 2013

What's the relationship between Studebaker and the BW automatic? Another board has a question, one poster indicating that Studebaker pretty much came up with their own AT after some discussions with BW. I though it was a BW transmission. :confuse:

Postwar Studebakers

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