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Jeep Wrangler

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Comments

  • pigfarmerpigfarmer Member Posts: 4
    I thought of buying some premium gas or an octance booster,however,the owners manual specifically warns AGAINST using higher octane for fear of "possible engine damage" (go figure???). Since this may become a warranty claim mess I want to adhere explictly to the manual. Thanks for the idea though.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I haven't had a problem like that yet, but then I've only got about 6,000 miles on my '04 Unlimited (time for a second oil change). For some reason the miles are going on faster with this one - could be that most of my weekend miles are going on her, instead of the Sport.

    Now that they've re-opened the national forests around here, perhaps I'll take the Sport out for a run this weekend.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    How long have you had this problem? How many miles on the Jeep?

    I doubt very seriously if using 89 Octane vs 87 Octane for one tank of gas would void your warranty, and it CERTAINLY would not harm the engine. I don't blame you for being very careful about maintaining the warranty, though.

    Mac24?????? Please jump in here!

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    It's very hard to diagnose a noise problem over the internet. There are several causes of uncontrolled pre-ignition, all of which should be covered by your warranty. However, instead of accelerating in a high gear, which will lug the engine and cause this problem even in a perfectly set up engine, why not drop down a gear, accelerate to the required speed the change up. Also, don't forget that fifth is an overdrive gear, meant for maintaining speed on a flat road, not for accelerating or ascending an incline. It's often people that are used to driving an automatic who get lazy about changing down a gear.

    However, I'm not saying that's the situation in your case. If you truly have a mechanical or electrical problem that's causing this, then your warranty will take care of it. If necessary go to another dealer.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Before I put much effort into a post, I want to be sure we are up and runnin' again.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Did I miss an announcement? Or was the site down because of some unexpected events?

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I had a real nice day at Turkey Bay yesterday, and I met some super nice folks.

    A group from the Firewalker Jeep Club was down from northern IL and southern WI to wheel at Turkey Bay. They only make it to Turkey Bay once a year, due to the long drive. (It was eight hours for those from WI.) There's no way they could know the fun spots by only coming once a year, so I volunteered to trail guide for those folks.

    I had three of my regular buds with me, and there were ten Firewalker rigs, so we had a group of 14.

    I showed them Dogleg Hollow and Buttpucker Gulch. They absolutely loved both of those spots, especially BP Gulch. We spent most of the afternoon at just those two spots, since almost all of those guys wanted to run BP Gulch.

    My bud, Mike, who does such a great job of spotting me through BP Gulch did the honors for those Firewalker guys. He did his usual good job, but one Jeep dropped the left side tires down into the gully, and it took a LONG time and three winches to get him out without damaging his Jeep. The guy got a little "ahead" of the spotter, and he guessed wrong.

    Those folks were so grateful for the trail guiding and the spotting that they gave Mike and I each a Firewalker T-shirt, and they bought our evening meal at a local restaurant. Now those people were CLASSY! Thanks, Firewalkers! I thoroughly enjoyed wheelin' with you guys.

    Here's a pic of our lunchbreak on the trail. There are some folks that were outside the field of view of the camera, but this is most of the group. These folks know how to have fun!

    image

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm afraid to reply about the outage, not knowing if the server really has reindexed now or not....

    Steve, Host
  • gretagreta Member Posts: 23
    Greetings; I haven't checked in for a while, but as as I did, the first thing I read is that someone is concerned with "Pinging." I've had that Pinging Sound with my 2004 Sahara for 13000 miles already, and it really makes me Crazy! I've been driving manual transmissions for 40 years and certainly know when to upshift & downshift. I typically love to just listen to a well tuned engine "just purring along", when being driven well. I've read in the manual that a little pinging is not doing the engine any damage, but it really pisses me off when I know it shouldn't be happening. The mechanics have suggested using the mid-grade gas, (which it should not need, so says the manual,) and even though I have been reluctantly using it lately, IT STILL PINGS; though less so. I only wish I didn't hear it, because it really has taken the pleasure out of the driving experience, as it jars on my nerves. I'd love to know how to take this matter up with the Higher Authorities, in the Chrysler Chain of Command. As this is still a warranty issue, I'd like to get some satisfaction, other than just being told to use a Higher Octane fuel. Thanks for letting me "vent my frustrations." Fondly, Greta
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Simple really. The answer you've been given is not acceptable, so politely but firmly tell your Service Manager that you need to escalate the issue. This will involve dealing with the DC area rep. If they refuse, go to another dealer.

    There will always be dealers that lack the skill or inclination to solve anything but the most simple of problems. However, there will also be dealers that will bend over backwards to help you. Make sure you reward both types with as much publicity as possible about their quality of service!
  • pigfarmerpigfarmer Member Posts: 4
    In reply to MAC and Greta-thanks for your input on the pinging issue. This is not a lugging issue-although you can induce pinging (as with any std. trans. vehicle) if you intentionally cause it to lug. This is also happening in the 2000-2300 RPM range on flat roads and hills in 4th. and 5th. gear. It has subsided somewhat on the latest load of Texaco gas. (we usually use Mobil). I am far from convinced,however, that this problem is related to a specific brand of gas as I've owned 6 vehicles in the past 10 years and all have run fine on Mobil. As with Greta I cannot tolerate a vehicle which is pinging at 13000 miles-especially with the long term implications it has. I have an appointment in one hour with the dealer again. I'll suggest that they pull the plugs and regap them or,if allowed by the factory,install a cooler running plug.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Pinging is pre-ignition, is it not? Instead of getting one nice big explosion in the combustion chamber, you get a small explosion first, right?

    This is why the octane rating is important, isn't it? The higher octane rating means the gas is a little harder to ignite, so when it goes, it goes all at once.

    If the gas is OK, then the timing is too far advanced, and you are getting ignition too long before the piston reaches TDC (top dead center). There is some ideal time for ignition before the piston ever reaches the top of its travel, right? If you get the spark too soon, you don't have all the compression yet.

    The ignition timing is computer controlled nowadays, and has been for a long time, right?

    Mac, please, please give us some details on the stuff I was just talking about, and straighten me out if I have some of this wrong.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • dave__dave__ Member Posts: 80
    This weekend I started working on my roof rack project. As a first step, I tried to loosen each of the windshield bracket bolts that need to come off in order to install the front supports. I thought this was the most likely thing that could go wrong. Well, it did.

    Most of them loosened just fine but two of them stripped before loosening. Both the stripped bolts are the painted flush kind but I bet you guessed that.

    What should I do to get them off? I know Sears makes some kind of stripped bolt removal kit. Is it worth the money? I've heard the phrase "drill it out" but I've never done that before and don't want to just figure it out on my Jeep's exterior. How do you drill it out without damaging the threads into which the bolt is screwed?

    Thanks again for your help with the basic stuff.

    Yours in Jeep Coolness,

    Dave
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    I had the same problem when installing mirror relocators. I tried to drill it out, but the drill bits broke (twice!). I had a friend of mine drill a regular hole through the wider part of the bolt, then use a hole punch and a hammer to get it to move. It was not pretty, but he did no damage to the surrounding area. I'd take a pic of the offending bolt, but it got tossed. :)

    Good luck!

    -Paul
  • dave__dave__ Member Posts: 80
    Thanks Paul. I didn't think I'd be the only one this happened to. Someone's got a nice page on the internet describing his install of the same roof rack I have. He had a similar problem but I thought he stripped the Torx bit rather than the bolt. That's what led me to try and loosen all the bolts before starting anything else.

    I guess this is the kind of thing you have to deal with when you buy something as tough as a Jeep!

    Yours in Jeep Coolness,

    Dave
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I'm wondering if the sound is really a true pinging (what Tom was describing).

    The reason I wonder is that with my '98 Sport, I first thought it sounded like a soft valve-lifter tick or something like that, since I heard it at higher speeds/harder acceleration (at first). As time went on (and I didn't do anything about it) it became obvious what it really was - the exhaust manifold.

    One interesting thing I notice on these 2 vehicles is that they are both 5 speeds.

    I hope both of you elevate this issue to the area rep level, and let us know what the final outcome is. There is nothing worse than listening to tapping, tinging, rattling etc. in a new vehicle.

    Hope I don't have the same problem when I get 10,000 miles on my Unlimited.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    By the way, while the Unlimited is much more stable in wind, it isn't any more frugal. It's been very windy the last couple of days and our gas consumption went from 17-18 plus mpg to 15! OUCH!
  • jeff62301jeff62301 Member Posts: 310
    i stripped one trying to install a CB mount on the windshield hinge. i went to a body shop, he knew exactly what i was talking about as soon as i started to describe what i was doing, his answer was to find a new place to mount the antenna, they see that problem all the time. they said its very difficult to get the old bolt out, and wind up doing body damage that needs repaired in the process.

    the one i did get out appeared to have locktite on it. if they are going to make them so they won't ever come apart, why not weld them? (I'm joking, don't want welds all over my jeep)

    jeff
  • dave__dave__ Member Posts: 80
    Thanks Jeff. Unfortunately, I have no option but to get them all out in order to install the roof rack. I re-read the page I found about installing this rack (www.jaboobie.com/congo.html). In that case he went through 2 Torx bits and then mangled three bolts. He drilled them out and went through 2 bits and some skin on his thumb in the process.

    Should be fun!

    Yours in Jeep Coolness,

    Dave
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Yes they do use Locktite on them! Torx heads make for easy production line assembly but difficult removal at any time. Heat will release the Locktite, but be careful not to damage the surrounding paint. Using a high quality Torx bit together with a hand held impact driver (hammer type), gives you the best chance of not stripping the recess in the bolt head.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    All pretty much correct. Other things that can cause it are increased compression, usually caused by carbon build up, variable gas quality, and sometimes a glowing piece of carbon in the head or on the plug.

    On some engines (not Jeep), there is a knock sensor that signals the computer to retard the ignition timing if pre-ignition is occurring. Fuel injection timing can have a small effect and can be altered by rotating the Camshaft Position Sensor. This shouldn't be done without the appropriate diagnostic equipment though.

    Bottom line is that it's a warranty problem, that needs to be taken care of by DC through one of their dealers.
  • pigfarmerpigfarmer Member Posts: 4
    Took Wrangler to dealer today for second visit concening pinging. It had subsided quite a bit since running it on Texaco (which may only be coincidental). In any event,there is still some very slight pinging between 2000-2300 RPM in 4th. and 5th. gear during very slight acceleration. Since it APPEARS to be subsiding the service writer and I agreed to continue with another few loads of Texaco and see if the problem continued to clear up-they rejected my suggestion that maybe we pull the plugs and clean and check their gaps-saying it was done on the first visit-I replied that it was not noted on the repair order. (recall that on the first visit they found the fuel to be fine but the "SYNC SIGNAL"was out of range and subsequently adjusted it-no codes stored). To reiterate,I am far from convinced that this is related to a specific brand of fuel because when it first occured,we tried various types of fuel-to no avail. Regardless,the problem has greatly subsided on the current load of Texaco and we will keep a close eye on it.
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    that this is the time of year fuel vendors change blends due to seasonal varieties. That may have something to do with it too.

    -Paul
  • yanksfanyanksfan Member Posts: 7
    I know the mechanical differences between the two. But I am wondering if anyone can tell me the difference in the overall feel of the two, how they handle with everyday driving. Is there a major difference in handling, acceleration, cornering, etc. Also, has anyone out there seen or test driven the Rubi Unlimited yet? Curious to see how it is. Thanks guys!
    -Brian
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Think the Rubi has a little more weight with all its goodies compared to the Sport. It is geared at 4.11, but it has 31" tires, so that kind of offsets the gearing. ( A Sport could be ordered with the 30" tires and 3.73 gearing, so you can see that your gearing changes 10% on a Rubi, even though the tire diameter only changes by 3.33%. This should mean that the Rubi would be a little peppier than a Sport with the 30" tires. This, however, may be offset partially or completely by the extra weight of the Rubi.)

    My Thelma Jane had the factory 30" tire package and the 3.73 gearing, so I know how that feels, but I have never driven a Rubi.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Between the two, the ride is VERY close. I think the Rubi may be just a TINY bit stiffer due to the heavier duty shocks.

    You will definitely notice a difference in capabilities offroad. :)

    If you are wanting a capable offroad rig, then start with the Rubi. You'd just end up modding your Jeep to have that kind of capability anyway. Any difference in ride quality will be very small.

    Keep in mind, the Rubi does start with 31's I believe. The sport has the 30's as an option package. The Rubi comes with Goodyear MTR's - a good offroad tire and one that has good onroad handling - but with perhaps a bit more noise.

    -Paul
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I have only test driven a Rubi once, so I don't have much time behind the wheel in one. My '98 Sport has the upgraded shocks, so feels stiffer than some other Sports. I did not notice much difference at all between the two. The Rubi handled and felt just like my Sport on the road, whereas I did notice a difference when I test drove an X model that day (seemed softer).

    As was said before, if you are going to be spending money to modify a Sport, just go ahead and get the Rubi - it will work out cheaper. If money is no object, get the Rubi. If you are planning on doing lighter type of off-roading and don't need lockers, then save your money and get the Sport, which is quite capable right out of the box (mine is still stock after all these years).
  • eaglesfaneaglesfan Member Posts: 1
    Clay--
    Good luck and be safe over there brother. I was with RCT-5 (5th Marines) for the opening gambit of the war. I left Iraq in June 2003. I am not a big fan of the Unlimited. I have a 2004 Sahara (just like you I bought it as soon as I returned to Camp Pendleton from Iraq). Either way you decide, you'll love it......

    Semper Fi
    Jay
  • dave__dave__ Member Posts: 80
    I'm amazed by how many people have pages and posts all over the internet about stripping Torx bolts. Each has their own way of dealing with it. The idea that I like best is using a Dremel tool to cut a notch in the head of the bolt and then removing it with a flat head screw driver. Of course, I could strip that slot out too and then be left with a stud and no other option but to drill it out.

    I expect to learn a lot from this project.

    Yours in Jeep Coolness,

    Dave
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    It didn't work. :) But good luck if you try it!

    -Paul
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    The springs are definitely stiffer on the Rubi and they are heavier. The Rubi sits a bit over an inch higher than other Wranglers. Mine just rolled over 4K today (6 months old). What I've noticed is that with the gearing you get a lot more pull-you-back-in-your-seat feeling. The disc brakes stop a bit quicker, though I think they're now an option on Sports. I have never owned a vehicle I love more!

    As an aside, for my next mod I'm thinking about installing seat risers. Starting in '03 they dropped the seat height an inch to facilitate entry/egress, but I think I would enjoy being taller in the saddle.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    There's a reason that straight slotted screws are relegated to low torque applications, such as woodwork.

    ;--)
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    What were you thinking about doing for seat risers? I'm short and that dropped seat height is bothering me. I've thought about just getting some type of pad, but haven't been overly enthusiastic about that as an option. I really do like to see a bit of the hood so I can judge where the front of the car is. The way it is now, I don't see anything but dash and windshield wipers.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    You can get a kit of machined aluminum spacers with longer bolts and hardware from here:

    Randy Buchanan
    Buchanan Precision Machine
    buchananprec@earthlink.net
    (805) 642 - 1376

    When the '03 models came out they lowered the seats by 1.5". I've no personal experience with this product, but I've read good things from people who have.

    There's a similar product using plastic blocks here:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1- &item=7930959967&category=33701
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    Very interesting - I'll have to check them both out. Then decide if I really want to do something about it.
  • keatskeats Member Posts: 412
    Yeah, Buchanan is the one I think I'm going with. He's been praised a lot on the other boards. I believe he sells 1 inch spacers and 1.5 inch spacers. From what I understand the install is very easy.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I want our good old Mac24 Buddy to jump in here, if he would be so kind, and clarify, correct, or expand on some of this, but the pinging could be due to the programming of the ECM.

    I read a post elsewhere that was saying that DC has different versions of the ECM program that they can reflash the ECM with.

    It is my understanding that ignition timing and fuel/air mixture is controlled through the ECM, and the programming is written in such a way as to minimize emissions.

    I also understand that some of the versions of the software lead to pinging by going too far in the direction of lowering emissions.

    Mac????? We REALLY need you on this one. What can you tell us?

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    To be precise, it should be called the PCM (Powertrain Control Module). One component of the PCM is an EPROM (Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory) chip. There have always been updates that can be downloaded to correct various problems, not just timing.

    The PCM does a variety of jobs, and all at the same time. Amongst other things, it controls the charging rate of the alternator, the readings that the gauges display, the maximum the engine can rev to, the lockup of the torque converter, the idle speed, etc., etc. It receives inputs from sensors that tell it what position the crankshaft is in, what position the camshaft is in, what the oxygen content of the exhaust gas is both before and after the catalytic converter, what position the throttle is in etc., etc.

    The PCM has to constantly evaluate all this information (and more) to keep everything running within pre-determined parameters. As time has passed and the pressure to meet CAFE regs increased, those parameters have got tighter and tighter. If things are getting close to the limits the PCM would now rather err on the side of running lean, which can cause pre-ignition, than leave the mixture as it is and retard the ignition, which would make the engine run better but would increase emissions.

    Unfortunately, it's not just a case of reprogramming the PCM to advance the timing. The timing is altered constantly while the engine is running, depending on load, temp, speed, etc,. etc. DC will not allow reprogramming that lets the engine run outside the parameters that keep it within the current CAFE regs. It's all to do with emissions. Whether that means a dollar cost or saving the planet depends on your point of view.

    The easiest thing to accomplish with a reflash is something like raising the idle speed when the a/c kicks in. Something very linear and two dimensional.

    Finally, I think this is a problem that will become worse with '04 models, and even worse with '05 models. Programming of the '04.5 and '05 PCM has been changed quite radically.
    However, a new or properly maintained used engine should not suffer pre-ignition. It's for DC to fix, not for us to live with. One fix is to lower the compression ratio. Unfortunately this decreases the power output and can increase emissions. Makes for a vicious circle.

    Is it any wonder I roll my eyes when someone posts that their new air filter/throttle body spacer/exhaust has added 20hp and 5mpg!
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Mac, so what really does a throttle body spacer or boring out the throttle body really do for you?

    Is it snake oil or is there a minor change?

    Besides regearing, what can I do to get better onroad performance from the 2.5l 4cyl besides get a 4.0 inline 6? :)

    -Paul
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    On a fuel injected engine it will make a small difference, but only to extent of moving the power band up or down a little. It won't add anything.

    As well as regearing (which is a good option), you can stroke and/or bore the block, add a turbo or supercharger, add nitrous injection............ all of which will have a marked effect.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Wow! Thanks! I found your post fascinating.

    You truly are DA MAN!

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Me too (I linked it in a Lexus board thirty minutes ago). Thanks Mac!

    heh, I bet we're talking about two different posts too, Tom :-)

    Steve, Host
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    I have a hard time swallowing the idea of nitrous or a turbo on 4cyl jeep. :)

    What would be the optional gearing for a 31" tire on the 4cyl for highway use (w/o sacrificing offroad creeping)?

    -Paul
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    People do it!

    Is yours an auto or a manual, and what's your present gearing?
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    manual with stock gearing on the SE (4.10 I think).

    -Paul
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Actually your present gearing isn't at all bad, it just depends on whether you can pull reasonable revs in fifth. Personally, I'd step it down to 4.56, which will be quite perky on the highway and absolutely fine in low range.

    I'd recommend you get the tires first, or even borrow a set if you know someone willing, and see how it feels on your present setup. I think 4.56 would ultimately be the way to go, but don't go any lower unless you're thinking of going with a much larger tire size in the future.
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    I didn't see much need or desire to go any bigger than 32's, but most likely 31's will be it. HOPEfully, I'll be able to trailer it or tow it to wherever I'm going to wheel, but there will be times it is on the highway.

    Once I have my Jeep here where I live now, I'll see how it does (much lower elevation than the 2000+ feet in California).

    My thought was the OME 2-2.5" lift with 31's. Would you recommend the steering stabilizer or torsion bars for this setup?

    -Paul
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    I like the OME lift enough to use it myself (and I run 31's as well). If your original steering stabilizer is in good shape there's no benefit in changing it. I'm a little puzzled by your reference to torsion bars........ could you elaborate?
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    If I ever need to replace the long block in my Sahara(unlikely), this is what I'm going to get:
    http://www.golenengineservice.com/displayEngine2.cfm?EngineID=99 . I especially like the wide torque curve-over 200 lb/ft is on tap from 1500 to 5400 rpm.
  • twylietwylie Member Posts: 619
    Did you mean adjustable track bars? If so, it's a preference thing. I went with adjustable bars with my OME lift because I wanted the better joints and movement along with the ability to dial the axles in just right. I was hesitant to redrill the rear mount in case a) I got it in the wrong place, b) screwed it up in moving it, c) ever wanted to take it back completely stock in the rear, or d) ever decided to go with some spacers, etc, that would change my lift height and axle centering. I used the RE bar in the rear and the JKS/Currie bar in the front. Joints are still tight and quiet on both ends after about 9 months. I just hit them with a shot or two of grease every oil change.

    -twylie
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