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28 Audis later - Last Audi 2009 A4 2.0T Prestige Sport with every option except automatic cruise control.
Shopped for new A5 P+ and new A4 Prestige, several other contenders including, most notably an Infiniti G37X and an '12 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD with a couple of must have accessories, parktronic and splash guards.
Used carwoo.com to get quotes from four different makes and models.
In September of 2011, got an offer of 13% below MSRP for a new Acura. I should note that I test drove, in one day, back to back to back an Audi S4 P+ (DSG), an all optioned Cadillac CTS/4 w/sport package and 19" wheels, etc and an Acura TL Advance SH-AWD.
I thought the Acura and the Audi were of similar feel -- and with the UMBER leather, I thought the Acura had a fine interior (not up to the other two, but attractive.)
The 13% off sticker offer was too good to pass up, ended up with a black leather interior, my least favorite of the Honda, er, Acura leather color pallet.
The Acura is not hideous for 2012 -- there's the compliment. It drives great, performs well, is very efficient, has a better sound system than the B&O on my last Audi and feels bigger than an A4 even though the A4 has a longer wheelbase.
Getting behind the wheel of the Advance version of the TL SH-AWD, I quickly forget about the looks of the car and focus on the power, the smoothness and the overall soundness (very tight) of the chassis.
Why, dear lord, can't it just be purty(er)?!?
Then I reflect upon my typical daily use of the vehicle. There's a song by James Taylor, "Damn, this Traffic Jam" -- well it took me an hour an 6 minutes to make the 19 mile trip from my office to my house the other day. You figure out how the 305HP helped, how the SH-AWD ever got even a little activated and how I was lucky to use more than 5 of the 6 gears of the auto transmission (I still wish it had 8 speeds, however.)
At MSRP, this thing is north of $47K, the similarly equipped Audi A4 2.0T Prestige is north of $48K. The Cadillac was north of $51K. These cars -- all -- are overkill for bumper-to-bumper traffic or secondary roads limited to 45MPH and heavily patrolled.
The Acura's secret weapons: SH-AWD and the sound system. I feel confident that our mild winters have met their match in the Acura, even in bone stock trim (and tires). I know if I ever need it, too, that the SH-AWD will damn near banish understeer and make my TL a "high value" S4 clone.
I bet I would be really pissed if I had an S4 (having had an S6, which was my favorite car of ALL time) these days -- I mean, c'mon, most cars, even much less expensive cars are more than very competent to suffer -- in comfort -- their drivers and passengers to travel from home to work and back.
I keep telling myself, I'll go for something "more" next time. Then, I get behind the wheel of my wife's 2011 FX35 (Infiniti) -- and that thing is comfortable, powerful, fun to drive and more luxurious than any Acura I know of. I then tell myself, I don't need an S4 or Bimmer or even a Volvo S60 T6 -- I need a CUV (like the Infiniti) -- if I'm going to move along at an average clip of 20-30MPH, I might as well be comfy (and know there's still plenty of capability if this damn traffic jam ever ends!)
If you haven't test driven a TL Advance SH-AWD (not the FWD version, the AWD version), go for it -- you will be at least pleasantly surprised and possibly impressed.
Now, if they'd just make the TL even less hideous looking, I think they'd have a winner! :surprise:
28 Audis later - Last Audi 2009 A4 2.0T Prestige Sport with every option except automatic cruise control.
Shopped for new A5 P+ and new A4 Prestige, several other contenders including, most notably an Infiniti G37X and an '12 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD with a couple of must have accessories, parktronic and splash guards.
Used carwoo.com to get quotes from four different makes and models.
In September of 2011, got an offer of 13% below MSRP for a new Acura. I should note that I test drove, in one day, back to back to back an Audi S4 P+ (DSG), an all optioned Cadillac CTS/4 w/sport package and 19" wheels, etc and an Acura TL Advance SH-AWD.
I thought the Acura and the Audi were of similar feel -- and with the UMBER leather, I thought the Acura had a fine interior (not up to the other two, but attractive.)
The 13% off sticker offer was too good to pass up, ended up with a black leather interior, my least favorite of the Honda, er, Acura leather color pallet.
The Acura is not hideous for 2012 -- there's the compliment. It drives great, performs well, is very efficient, has a better sound system than the B&O on my last Audi and feels bigger than an A4 even though the A4 has a longer wheelbase.
Getting behind the wheel of the Advance version of the TL SH-AWD, I quickly forget about the looks of the car and focus on the power, the smoothness and the overall soundness (very tight) of the chassis.
Why, dear lord, can't it just be purty(er)?!?
Then I reflect upon my typical daily use of the vehicle. There's a song by James Taylor, "Damn, this Traffic Jam" -- well it took me an hour an 6 minutes to make the 19 mile trip from my office to my house the other day. You figure out how the 305HP helped, how the SH-AWD ever got even a little activated and how I was lucky to use more than 5 of the 6 gears of the auto transmission (I still wish it had 8 speeds, however.)
At MSRP, this thing is north of $47K, the similarly equipped Audi A4 2.0T Prestige is north of $48K. The Cadillac was north of $51K. These cars -- all -- are overkill for bumper-to-bumper traffic or secondary roads limited to 45MPH and heavily patrolled.
The Acura's secret weapons: SH-AWD and the sound system. I feel confident that our mild winters have met their match in the Acura, even in bone stock trim (and tires). I know if I ever need it, too, that the SH-AWD will damn near banish understeer and make my TL a "high value" S4 clone.
I bet I would be really pissed if I had an S4 (having had an S6, which was my favorite car of ALL time) these days -- I mean, c'mon, most cars, even much less expensive cars are more than very competent to suffer -- in comfort -- their drivers and passengers to travel from home to work and back.
I keep telling myself, I'll go for something "more" next time. Then, I get behind the wheel of my wife's 2011 FX35 (Infiniti) -- and that thing is comfortable, powerful, fun to drive and more luxurious than any Acura I know of. I then tell myself, I don't need an S4 or Bimmer or even a Volvo S60 T6 -- I need a CUV (like the Infiniti) -- if I'm going to move along at an average clip of 20-30MPH, I might as well be comfy (and know there's still plenty of capability if this damn traffic jam ever ends!)
If you haven't test driven a TL Advance SH-AWD (not the FWD version, the AWD version), go for it -- you will be at least pleasantly surprised and possibly impressed.
Now, if they'd just make the TL even less hideous looking, I think they'd have a winner! :surprise:
Still, to get what the S4 offers, you pay a price....about $6K over a TL SH AWD Tech-Advance!
Is it worth it? To me and the GF, yes! To you, no! Then again, I love my BMW, too.
I've tried to like the G (and M). It's quick. But, that's all I can say about it. After that it falls behind all these other cars.
So, the TL was, oddly, actually cross shopped with an Audi A4 2.0T prestige sport. An S4, comparably equipped -- comparable to a TL SH-AWD Advance, is about $11,000 more than the TL.
Now, "worth" and "value" are subjective, and I for one think the Audi is worth more but that the TL provides more value. Objectively, well $11,000 is cause for pause -- frankly, I would spend S4 money and get an A6 (and I believe for S4 Prestige money, I could get an A6 Prestige.)
Were I doing the comparing, I would say the A6 is a better value than the S4, since I would value the increased size of the A6 -- the A6 is "worth" more (to me) than the S4 equipped with the Acura SH-AWD Advance features, which can be replicated, mostly, on an S4 (for the above mentioned $11,000.)
Objectively, the S4 is the best performer -- it is provable, no opinion need apply. The A6 is probably the most comfortable (of the three - TL, S4 and A6) and the TL costs the least (pre discount, at least).
If I could have leased either the A4, S4 or A6 equipped as close as possible the TL, for similar money, wow, well I might have strongly considered the S4, but probably would have gone with the A6. The Acura's worth, from my perspective, is fine at 13% off MSRP -- it is also a high value. Without the discount, though, I would probably have re-upped for a '12 A4 2.0T Prestige with the sport package, all other stand alone options, and, this time, without the $3,000 Audi Drive Select option.
The A4 2.0T all decked out (and chipped) is "close enough" to an S4, that I would have re-enlisted with Audi. As it stands, I have a decent A6, C6 generation (internally designated) clone (perhaps as of the last year before the A6 got the supercharger.)
Even though the TL be puny in the engine dept, when compared to an S4, I continue to lament not being able to "open it up" from time to time, due to traffic, pedestrians, deer and geese.
Enjoy your S4 -- my guess is, it will become (over time) the car you remember most fondly. Like I said, my S6 remains my fave, the best car I ever had.
I loved my TL while I had it. Got great trade value for it, too.
I have a 335i. My SO was in the market. She was considering an A4. We drove an S4 and both loved it (me more than her). Never really considered an A6. As you say, it's bigger, which is something we really didn't need.
Figured a TL Advance SH AWD would be about $46K.
Couldn't swing a deal at either of the Cincinnati Audi dealers. Ended up in Chicago and saved $4K off the best deal at either of the Cincinnati dealers (with a trade involved).
TL is a great car. Glad you enjoy yours.
From an information standpoint, some Acura brochures tout their use of magnetorheological shock absorbers, but nowehere at the dealer or my brochure can I find anything on this (there is an allusion to a special shock valve system in the SH-AWD. Anyone know about that?
So honest, you other Audi-philes out there (and I am one). Does a A4 with Stasis mods and manual tranny (which does not offer torque vectoring) even stay with the TL as a performance car? Putting aside the seating room.
Yes, an S4 with the $4000 handling package/Torque vectoring system would out-handle the TL, and would be a smidge faster (1/2 sec 0-60), but try to find one. And then it is over $60k. I won't tell you what I paid for my TL, MT, Tech Package in an August deal environment, with rear sensors for parking added, but it was a LONG way from $60k. My other car is a 993 Porsche cab and I drive each one maybe 3k per year. Couldn't go for the S4, even if I could find one. Thought the A4 was too little and too slow.
TL blew me away. It is like a fast, solid grand touring sport coupe with lots of legroom for two rear passengers. (Yes, I hate the trunk and middle rear seat...)
Thanks.
Can you email me at chassoc@verizon.net with asnwer? Not sure I get replies on this forum yet. (Just bought my SH-AWD TL/Tech package, manual Tran to replace Audi A6 2.7T MT. If not, hopefully I get reply here.
Charlie
But, as you point out, you pay a premium for those upgrades, too.
Ours was way under $60k.
I am not sure the Audi is "substantially" more of anything, other than price, according to what you will see that follows.
And, I don't know about keeping up with the S4 being silly -- check it out:
Acura TL SH-AWD 18" wheels and tires:
Price: $43,245/$44,245 (base/as tested)
Engine: 24-valve SOHC V-6
Displacement: 3.7 liters (224 cu in)
Horsepower: 305 hp @ 6300 rpm
Torque: 273 lb-ft @ 5000 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Acceleration
0-60 mph: 5.4 sec
0-100 mph: 13.5 sec
0-110 mph: 16.3 sec
0-120 mph: 20.5 sec
0-130 mph: 24.9 sec
0-140 mph: *
0-150 mph: *
1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 14.1 @ 102
30-70 mph passing: 6.8 sec
peak g: 0.66 g
==========
Audi S4 w/18" wheels and tires, too:
Price: $46,725/$54,075 (base/as tested)
Engine: 24-valve DOHC supercharged V-6
Displacement: 3.0 liters (183 cu in)
Horsepower: 333 hp @ 5500 rpm
Torque: 325 lb-ft @ 2900 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Acceleration
0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
0-100 mph: 11.5 sec
0-110 mph: 13.5 sec
0-120 mph: 16.4 sec
0-130 mph: 19.7 sec
0-140 mph: 23.4 sec
0-150 mph: 28.6 sec
1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 13.5 @ 110
30-70 mph passing: 5.7 sec
Peak g: 0.69 g
"The Audi's extra thrust should have been a huge advantage at Pittsburgh's BeaveRun racetrack, which rewards straight-line speed with two long straightaways -- especially since, on paper, the Acura carries no advantage in cornering or braking: the two cars have similar weight, tire section width, and suspension designs. The Audi's slightly better weight distribution would, we thought, be nixed by the Acura's wider track. And we were right -- as expected, the cars posted similar braking and cornering numbers in standardized testing.
But on a racetrack, the TL showed us exactly why Acura used the word "super" to describe its Super-Handling All-Wheel-Drive system. Despite its significant power advantage, the Audi S4's fastest lap beat the TL's by only 0.4 second."
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1008_2010_acura_tl_sh_awd_vs_2010_au- - di_s4/viewall.html#ixzz27W19sjZI
I'm just sayin' . . . :surprise:
Probably brand loyalty?
Now, the S6 and the S8 are cars that I would describe as sublime -- virtually regardless of price. Virtually. I had a new S6 in 1995 and it remains my favorite car, despite the fact that I actually felt my 1997 A8 and 2005 A6 and 2009 A4 2.0T sport were "better." The S cars, not S-Line, mind you, are IMHO among the most desirable cars on the planet. I have never driven one of the newer generations of RS Audis, but I am confident they too are at the pinnacle of the automaker's art.
However, I/we live in a world where (for example), home theater, European trips, fine dining, plays and "theater", regional US travel and our Shelties are very important. My wife collects high buck pens and we both collect watches and support charities and what we think are good causes. Our ages dictate that 401ks and other investments are also near the top of our minds.
Hopefully you get the picture -- I did cross shop the Acura with a comparably priced (south of $50,000) Audi. The Acura, which was able to "remind" or perhaps fool me into thinking it was "sporty" and not a HUGE step down from the Audi in terms of creature comforts, seemed (in the time frame of the Great Recession) to be an optimal purchase. A few years back, I probably would have talked myself into about $200 per month more and for a longer term (36 mo vs 42 months lease).
Yea, I know, TMI, but I assume many folks go through a similar thought process and some justify it by getting a 50" HDTV instead of a much larger HDTV or they eat at chain restaurants to save a few bucks or they don't fly business class to Munich, etc etc etc.
I will shop Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Genesis, Infiniti, Volkswagen and Volvo, next time around (22 months or so.) I can only assume that there will be no S4 or S6 that is worth giving up the other "luxuries" we enjoy.
Of course, we could always win the lottery -- but then again, that would mean we would have to start playing it.
Drive it like you live. :shades:
I have said this before that I almost traded my TL for either the S4 or the A6 Premium Plus- the A4 was not even on my long list- way underpowered to even be mentioned. I sat in the S4 and knew right away this would not suffice a family of four. The A6 would but value stopped me in putting my signature on the paper. I just could not justify giving up $20K more for what seems like- a little power, slightly better handling and a few other stuff that are irrelevant. Just MHO
:surprise:
Drive it like you live.
I don't want to pull the trigger on 2012, only to be kicking myself because 2013 and/or the RLX is such a superior car (I know the RLX would be more expensive)
If you are planning to lease, the '13's will probably be less per month and you can get one of them any way you want by ordering it.
The rumor, of course, is that the replacement TL, thus far called the TLX, will be based off the new '13' Accord which uses more high strength steel (for an overall stiffer car, which improves, uh, "everything") and has a lot newer and better technology. Take the '13'Accord and "Acura-ize" it, and you will have an entirely new and improved '14' "TLX" (or whatever.)
Acura will certainly want to get the new TL replacement to market as soon as possible to distance itself from the current TL "design statement" (er, some just call it ugly), but I wouldn't expect the '14's until at least Q2 or perhaps Q3 of 2013.
In any case the current ('13) TL SH-AWD (I have a '12 TL SH-AWD Advance) is an exceptionally nice car (as long as you are inside of it and don't have to look at the exterior) and it drives great and performs great.
You may get the best deal on the current gen rather than the upcoming '14. If you are looking for value, the '12 or '13 TL SH-AWD is very hard to beat. :shades:
Other than a failure of the air-conditioner last summer and a rattle in the sunroof, the car has been reliable. It took the dealer two tries to repair the air conditioner and one try to fix the sunroof. The car was in the shop for two days the second try.
The car's performance is excellent. It's quick and smooth. The roadholding and handling are up to high standards, especially if the mediocre OEM tires are exchanged for very high performance summer tires, as I did. The engine and transmission are smooth. Heavily laden, car has achieved 31 mpg with the cruise control set to 70 mph in flat terrain. Driven as most enthusiasts would, the car gets 26-27 mpg on the highway and 20 mpg in suburban driving.
The sound system is first class. The navigation system is good, but not great. Bugs that should have been fixed years ago persist, such as using voice control to get time without the engagement of the tutorial.
The instrument controls are a victim of style over legibility. The binnacles surrounding the tach and speedometer are so large and obtrusive that at times, the driver focuses on the light gray rims of the binnacles rather than to the instruments themselves.
The clock is a tiny, hidden in the display in the LCD panel above the many pushbuttons. Generally I find the layout and logic of the buttons useful and friendly.
The front seats are very comfortable and supportive.
The all wheel drive works well, but doesn't engage as quickly as the full-time all-wheel systems in my 2001 and 2004 Audi A6 cars or in my 2007 Subaru Outback H6 or in my former 2006 and 2007 Subaru Legacy spec.B sedans, which had manual transmissions. I can easily sense that brief moment of slippage until the Acura's SH-AWD sends power to the rear wheels.
The TL's body has three major disadvantages. First, the driver's outward view is severely compromised by the wide, sharply slanted A-pillars, high belt line, and small windows. Second, access to the back seat is hard because of small doors and a sloping roof. Third, the undersized trunk has a high lift over, a small opening, contours that make it very difficult to accept large suitcases. For a 194-inch long car, a trunk of 12.5 cubic feet is too small. Furthermore the trunk lid has a pointed center which too often whacks foreheads.
For the driver, the TL SH-AWD's roadholding and handling are satisfying, especially for a long, heavy sedan. The ride is generally pleasing, but compromised by excessive road noise.
So, the 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD is a mixed bag. It scores well for performance and poorly for practicality.
Having just finished a long trip of 2,400 miles in two weeks with my wife and lots of baggage, I have concluded, "never again in the TL," because it's a large car outside and a small car inside.
My lease for the 2012 TL will expire next Spring. I will consider the forthcoming 2014 Acura TL, a variant of the 2014 Honda Accord, with a new hybrid AWD system. I will not consider any car with a trunk and outward view as bad as the 2012 TL's. Style doesn't trump utility.
The rear-view camera works well enough, but is primitive in contrast to rear-view cameras in cars in the same price range because the Acura view doesn't display guidelines to aid in reversing. That's a simple software solution that Acura could have provided at low cost.
The blind spot indicator is welcome, but it only works when an approaching vehicle is a car length or so alongside the TL. This device is a useful accessory, but no substitute for checking the rearview mirrors; don't rely on it alone.
The tungsten-halogen high-beams have good reach, but are so inferior in brightness to the xenon HID low-beams that one's eyes are presented with a disparity in brightness and in color. The xenon lamps are blueish-white; the tungsten-halogen lamps are yellowish-white. Clearly Acura did not fit xenon high-beams in order to keep costs down and for the same reason did not fit articulating headlights which turn with body motion and steering. Acura cheaped out.
So it seems to me that the TL SH-AWD is more luxurious, AWD version of the Honda Accord. Unless you want AWD, buy the Honda. If you want the features commonly offered in an upscale AWD sedan of this size, consider an Infiniti M, BMW 5-series, Audi A6, all of which are costlier and have their pluses and minuses. The TL SH-AWD hits a sweet spot for good value, along with prominent shortcomings and quirks. The TL SH-AWD is a fine car, but I wouldn't get the same model again. Maybe the 2014 will lure me.
My 2005 Audi A6 and my 2009 A4 Prestige Sport both had features that I find almost impossible to imagine why aren't on a nearly $48K (MSRP with a couple of Acura accessories) 2012 model car.
No bi-xenons -- why?
Dim bulb high beams -- same question.
Why not direct injection?
Why only a 6-speed auto whereas the Bimmer and Audi offer 8 (at the same price points.)
My Audis blind spot warning system was far more useful, the one in the Advance package is good, but it only comes on when the car coming up on you in your blind spot is almost literally already even with your rear bumper -- the Audi, as I recall, gave you warning of at least 3 car lengths, which prevented "stupid attacks."
etc
etc
As I have said before, the TL is ONLY really competitive if it is an SH-AWD version with the Advance trim. I was loaned a Tech version and it simply was a major disappointment.
I did find the "value" proposition compelling for the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance, though -- I got mine in September of 2011 at 13% off of MSRP with a 36 month term and 45K miles in the lease. This, compared to the 2012 Audi A4 Presitge that I could have ordered meant the Acura was almost $200 per month less and 6 months term less. I couldn't pass it up.
Now, the 2013 Accord, assuming it is the basis for the new TL(X) and assuming SH-AWD is still offered, is said to be coming with more gears in the transmission and direct injection (which should, one would think, improve mileage and power.) Moreover, the 2013 Accord has some nice new (contemporary) tech and is made with high-strength steel.
Hopefully the dash of the Acura will no longer look like a thinly disguised Accord. The lack of articulating and bi-xenon headlights should be corrected as should the inclusion of led's as a light source for drl's etc. I think, too, the TLX should offer up an "S" version with more than 19" wheels as the indicator of sportiness -- especially with those dreadful OEM tires.
For many Americans, a great compromise would be to include technology's best UHP all-seasons -- not grand touring and not H rated, not even V rated rubber. There are tires from several suppliers that Honda, er, Acura could choose for their "upscale" car company.
Now, having complained, I must also say, other than the brake rotors -- which is kind of a big deal, now that I say it -- the car seems bullet proof. The engine at full-cry sounds sweet, not course. The Acura V6 and my 2005 Audi 3.2 V6 sing (sang) the same tune.
The only thing the Acura does better than any other car I have had is the sound system -- this is a sound system that seems as if it ought to be one of those high buck after market systems, it is that good.
I find the 2012 TL to be acceptably quiet and I do believe aftermarket tires will cure a lot of the road noise issues some complain about.
Care should be taken to "get the sound" of solidity down pat -- close the back doors and there is no satisfying "whumppp" -- it rather has the sound of hitting a 55 gallon metal drum with a rubber mallet. Very Honda like.
I will consider a '14 or '15 MY TL(X) because I think it should be a price leader (again) and will likely be updated to about 2009 German-car standards.
I must say, uncharacteristic of a Honda product, both our BMW 335i and the S4 get better MPG than the TL SH AWD did. Not by a lot, but probably at least 10% better in the German makes. Then again, I drive like a rabid banshee most of the time.
While I buy instead of lease, the financial part of the equation is different than yours. However, the German iron (thinking BMW 3 series and Audi A/S4) is going to be more expensive. To me, the price premium was worth it.
However, if Acura comes out with the kind of car we know they're capable of in 2014, and they keep the price about the same, that would be a tough choice.
Honda/Acura got hit with a double whammy. While I liked the current styling, I understand many did not. Then, the auto industry recovery is just now starting to take hold. And, the big hit was the tsunami that hit Japan, which probably hurt Honda more than any of the others.
It's taken Honda/Acura a bit to right the ship because of all the above. But, I've always liked their products, their engineering and their bulletproof reliability. Add in the high value part and they should have a winner in 2014.
Let's say I'm cautiously optimistic.