Jeep Wrangler

tsjay · January 2005

Schafudd:

Hey, I'm not the world's best car trader, but I sure used to get a LOT of practice!

You can read about my buying experience here...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~tsjay51/thelma.html

You will see how there was $3400 difference from the worst deal to the best deal among the three closest Jeep dealers to me! I was going to factory order exactly the same Jeep at each place, and, of course, my trade-in vehicle was exactly the same one at each place. We have apples to apples to apples here!

Arm yourself with knowledge before you even begin shopping! Don't let the dealer talk "sticker," just make him talk price in relation to INVOICE. Find out how close other people's deals have been to invoice. Know what is a reasonable amount to expect to pay in relation to invoice.

You can get the invoice price for a Jeep equipped exactly as you want it right here in Edmunds, but be warned that the true invoice cost to the dealer will be higher than Edmunds will list. There are advertising fees that Edmunds does NOT include when they give invoice price. These are legitimate fees that the dealer has to pay, and they are line item costs listed on the real invoice. There is a national ad fee and a regional ad fee, and they totalled somewhere close to $300 on my Thelma Jane, if I remember correctly. The regional ad fee is higher in highly populated areas, since air time on TV and radio is higher there.

Don't let them start trying to deal with you on your trade-in until you have first gotten their best price on the new vehicle. They will confuse you by claiming to be allowing you so much on the trade-in that they cannot come down on the new vehicle, or they will tell you that they have cut so much off the new one that they cannot come up any more on your trade-in allowance.

Get the best deal on a no trade-in basis first. IT's OK to tell them that you don't want to discuss trade-in until you have gotten their best deal on the new vehicle. That's just part of YOU BEING IN CONTROL instead of THEM!

Be realistic about your trade-in when the time comes for working on trade-in allowance. If you have done a good job negotiating the price of the new vehicle, then the dealer is only making a few hundred bucks on it. He needs to get your trade-in vehicle at a price that allows him to make a profit on it. Remember, if he wanted a vehicle like yours on his lot, he could go to an auction and get one for wholesale price.

Find out what average trade-in value is for your vehicle, and be fair in what you give it for a rating on its condition, since this makes a big difference in its value. If you have held the dealer's feet to the fire on the new vehicle, then don't be ridiculous on what you expect him to give you for trade-in. You always have the option of selling it yourself, and you will always get more for it that way, but it can be a REAL hassle trying to sell one!

Good luck, and keep us posted!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

99tj · January 2005

If you haven't seen this video of the Gladiator at the Detroit Auto Show, click it now!

http://autoshow.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/103626/page012- .html?tid=edmunds.e.autoshow..leftnav.13.*

I copied this from a post in the Gladiator forum.

Pretty cool stuff. The "backseat/bench folds down to create a longer truck bed.

I'd love to see this truck built.

-Dan

koolbreeze2 · January 2005

I owned a '49 Jeep in the 70's. No top. It was a very interesting ride to work. I had to wear tankers goggles and a surplus Army parka and wool sweaters on bad days. Always got strange looks at stoplights, especially in the winter. Very slow,dependable, no radio (only a transistor radio taped to the dash) and I had to cut holes in the floor for water to run out. Drove it 12 months of the year in Connecticut. My dog , Huckleberry, used to ride in the back. No easy task-he was half black Lab and half Great Dane. Bought it for $1100.00 and sold it for $1300.00. Where did you get the '49 Jeep truck grill? Nice addition to the garage! Autoart is alot of fun. John

stever · January 2005

It cost me $10 at an estate sale, and I cherry-picked the best of the three that were for sale that day. I'm sure the neighbors have given it a few strange looks too.

Steve, Host

jeepercreepers · January 2005

If your last date, or the wife, :-) complained about wet dog smell, well, wet dog smell can penetrate most anything. And the non-dog lovers all seem to have ultra sensitive noses when it comes to dog smell. I wouldn't bet that rhino liner would solve your stinky problem.

I thought about just removing the carpet. However I went to Home Depot and got a moving blanket and try to keep the dogs on that. Some of that carpet powder made for removing smells helps from time to time. And finally I made a manly potpourri of sagebrush wrapped in cheesecloth and stuck it by the heater vent to overwhelm the dog smell.

jbone · January 2005

Began looking at the Unlimited today but won't be buying for awhile till the finances are right...

Anyway, I am looking for a little info:

My wife asked me if the height of the windshield would be a problem for me seeing out as 1. this would be my daily driver and weekend player (yea!!!), 2. I am 6'3", and 3. have never owned a Jeep only ridden in two CJ-5's a few times.

Today we stopped at our local dealer who was closed, and looked at their only TJ-L, an '04, and my wife thought the top of the windshield where the visors fold up would be my primary field of view...any thoughts?

I plan on getting the stick, and was wondering what people thought of the new 6 spd...

Also the 2005 brochure shows and mentions only medium grey or body color fender flares - what happened to black? Is it truly not an option?

Finally, I have researched a few buying options but was looking for feedback on what online sites people might recommend - specifically has anyone used the site that starts with jeep and ends with warehouse? If so does anyone know delivery charges to the east coast?

Anyway, I will keep you posted as I continue my journey towards my first Jeep (I can hardly wait)!

Thanks!

mtngal · January 2005

I don't think you'll have any problems with the seat height and/or line of sight. There is lots of headroom - my 6' husband won't mind if I put in 2" lifts on the seats (I'm short, and the Unlimited's seating is just too low for me. I can't see enough when off-roading). In fact, the sun visors are pretty useless for me - I now keep a hat with a brim in the vehicle to compensate.

I understand that the grey was so disliked that they have gone back to offering the black.

I can't really help you with on-line sights. When I bought my Unlimited, I used Edmund's email to dealers option and then bought from the first one that offered me what I wanted to pay. It worked really well.

tsjay · January 2005

I seriously doubt if you would have any trouble with the windshield header blocking your view. As a matter of fact, lots of folks are not exactly happy that the last couple model years have lower seats than did previous years.

Praise GAWD! The BLACK IS BACK! I believe that starting December 1, 2004, they went back to black tops and flares. I'm not sure of that date, but I AM sure that Jeeps are being built with black flares and tops again. I DID NOT care for the grey AT ALL.

Good luck, Jbone, and ask all the questions you want to. Keep us posted on your progress. We're all rootin' for you to get a great Jeep and a great deal on it!

You might want to take advantage of the time before your actual purchase to have any dental work that you might need taken care of. At least get your teeth cleaned, BECAUSE EVERY TIME YOU GET BEHIND THE WHEEL OF THAT JEEP, YOU ARE GONNA SMILE FROM EAR TO EAR!!!!!!!!! Of course that smile returns during your day at work, when your mind drifts back to that Jeep. Your co-workers will think you are awfully happy in your work all of a sudden.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

99tj · January 2005

....more Gladiator pics.

http://www.jeep.com/autoshow/gladiator/gallery.html

-Dan

mac24 · January 2005

Excellent!!! Although there are a lot details that are kind of funky and 'concept car-ish' (like the interior), the overall design, lines and proportions are so 'right'. I especially like the large canvas sunroof cover..........very WW2!

tsjay · January 2005

Jeff:

Last I heard, today is the big day, right?

POST PICS! And, tell us all about your first impressions of that Rubicon Unlimited!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

99tj · January 2005

yeah...designers like to go nuts with the interior on concepts. I agree, I love the overall design. The option to extend the bed and the canvas roof are REALLY cool. Unlike most concept designs, this looks like it could roll off the assembly line tomorrow. I'd be right there waiting for it too!

-Dan

jeep-luvrct · January 2005

I got a brand new jeep wrangler columbia edition, (essentialy sport w/ a few upgrades)

in what order should I upgrade things?

p.s. noticed a lot of cb's on rigs, should i buy one? where should i install it?

tsjay · January 2005

Hi jeep-luvrct! Welcome!

What you do to your Jeep depends on what kind of use it will see. Do you plan to off road that baby?

CB's are essential when you go out with a group on the trails. You have to be able to communicate with the other Jeeps.

Depending on the type of trails you will run, you may not really need to do any modifications. Stock Jeeps are amazingly capable.

A winch is always a good investment, since it can get you out of some jams.

Just take it slow, do some wheelin' stock, if you can find some guys to wheel with. Don't go out alone.

Maybe my little website would help ya.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tsjay49/

Read lots of old posts, and feel free to ask all the questions you want to.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THAT JEEP!!!! There ain't nothin' like 'em!

Is this your first short wheel base Jeep?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

dave__ · January 2005

Congratulations!

I also have a Columbia Edition (2004) which I bought last September. It's red with the graphite flares and matching wheels, soft top and half doors.

I haven't done much to mine but I think some of them are a good start for anyone. First I bought a set of tow hooks for the front. Then I added a receiver hitch to the back and put a rear tow hook in it. I also bought a recovery strap. That way if I need to be pulled out of anything or if I can help pull someone else out of something, then I'll be prepared.

I also bought some little things like locking lug nuts, a tire deflator, a receiver hitch bike rack. Your's probably came with locking lug nuts but I bought mine used and they had been removed.

Then there's the roof rack. That was a real pain to install but mostly because of mistakes I made and bad luck. I've posted lots of stuff about that experience previously so you can read about my pain if you want to.

We're supposed to get a dusting of snow today which shouldn't pose any problems directly. It will just make everyone else drive like there's a foot of snow on the road. They're calling for snow again this weekend. Maybe that will be enough to play in. Only time will tell.

Enjoy your new Jeep and keep us posted on what you decide to do to it, if anything.

Yours in Jeep Coolness,

Dave

mac24 · January 2005

You might want to upgrade the contents of your bank account.

;--)

beachbum · January 2005

I am actually replying to my message. I have not seen any responses and am asking the question again. Does anyone know if a hard top from a '97 Wrangler will fit the models from '98 to 2005.

Thanks for your help.

gman1259 · January 2005

I dont really know. However, when I looked at buying a bikini top it seemed that the 2003 / 2004 uses a different head-rail, which may indicate the 97 top will not work on the 2003 / 2004 year models.

I would ask the parts guy at your local jeep dealer.

Sorry I could not offer any useful help.

Glen

tsjay · January 2005

Guess your question slipped through the cracks.

I know that at some point (03, I believe) they went to a plastic header over the windshield. This could effect the way a hard top would fit, but I don't know if it did or not?

Can someone help out beachbum?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

jeff62301 · January 2005

it was a dealer take off , i bought it on Ebay. I've heard people talk about head rails / headers. What is that? I want to make sure I got all the parts before the seller forgets that its my $950 in his pocket.

jeff

erickpl · January 2005

is usually the piece that lines the top of windshield where your top will fasten. Hard tops usually just hook into the frame. So do soft tops - usually. But if you have something like a bikini or safari top, you will probably need to add a header. It has a channel the bikini/safari mounts to. There are two types - drill in and non-drill in. I have the non-drill version and it attaches via the locations the soft top and hard top fasten and secure (so I cannot use my soft top when it is attached). The drill version can stay on and be used with the soft top.

If you bought a soft top from a dealer, then you should not need any kind of header, but you will need the hardware for attaching it in back (the pieces that connect to the vertical portion of your sport cage). It should have that, unless you already have it.

Hope this helps.

-Paul

jeff62301 · January 2005

I think I'd better visit a dealership this weekend and look at one with a soft top,,,, to see what those pieces in the back look like

thanks for the info!!

jts

jeep-luvrct · January 2005

mine is the bright silver, at a distance it looks white but up close or in the sun its beautiful...thinking about the roof rack, can't decide which one to go with...i have a a 2" receiver hitch already and a recovery strap need to get those hooks.

i had a sahara 01' for 3 months (used) when my sis crashed it into a tree :-( but now i got a new baby so i guess i should thank her :-)

Kirstie_H · January 2005

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h

erickpl · January 2005

tonight of my hardware and put them online somewhere so you can see what I'm talking about. If you are buying the soft top from a dealer, just ask them if it comes with the installation hardware (some call them spreaders) for the back on the Jeep.

-Paul

redrocker15 · January 2005

Wow! You mean the grey wheel well trim on my '98 is really black? Whodathinkit?

We had some ice here (like much of the country, I guess) recently. Anyway, almost made it to work before I hit a serious patch on a curve (had just popped out of 4WD due to drier pavement). There were already a couple of cars waiting to hook onto the tow truck (waiting next to them), when I started sliding toward the curb. Not really high speed, mind you, but no tendencies toward control. No problem about missing the other cars and tow truck, but not enough reaction tie even for this slow motion slider. WHAM! Pretty much a direct, side-walls-first slam into the 10" high curb. Maybe 5 mph, maybe 8 - - the speedo didn't register too accurately. Still, a pretty good jolt. Got out, looked at the still inflated tires and backed out and into the next driveway. The tow truck guy asked if I was OK, which I was. I even commented that the Jeep seemed OK; which he mentioned wasn't likely - - had to be some damage with the impact we'd suffered. He was right - - I had to get an alignment job (obvious since the steering wheel was no longer square with the world). Still, I saw several other vehicles at that same intersection - - most had wheels neatly tucked up under their chassis.

Anybody else have the opinion that Jeeps are pretty tough little vehicles?

tsjay · January 2005

"Anybody else have the opinion that Jeeps are pretty tough little vehicles?"

Yep! I'll sure go along with that. They are just plain amazing.

When I think about how much time Thelma Jane has spent on the trails and how I have had to repair/replace almost NOTHING, I am truly impressed. One bent control arm and one front hub/bearing assembly. She's only been on the trails for three years, but I go wheelin' so often, she probably has seen more trail time than most fifteen year old Jeeps!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

jefferson1964 · January 2005

However, I just purchased a 2005 rubi unlimited and its a terrific jeep. I live in Texas however, purchased it in Indiana due to the great price i recieved. If any of you are considering such a purchase out of state or just a rubi unlimited do it. My experience has been great and have been very pleased with the rubi. The rubi unlimited looks more proportional than the regular unlimited its has a taller stance and the tires stick every so slightly out and give it a much tougher look, IMO....

One thing happened yesterday when the family took our first drive. My son 2 1/4 years old was in the back in the car seat. He had his hands behind his head like he was just kickn back and was bobbin his head to the tunes. I turned around and asked him if he was having fun and he said yes daddy. He has not done this before in any vehicle we have been in, it must be a Jeep Thing....LOL.....

Tom, ive been in and out of this forum for years and you even made some phone calls for me a while back on a used jeep. I appreciate your help as well as all the others that also steered me the right way. The rubi is an over kill for my needs but man do i like it. I just wish turkey bay was much closer as i would like to meet ya Tom and hit some trails....Thanks, Jeff

mtngal · January 2005

I call my '98 Wrangler my Noble Black Steed. We were in an accident on I-405 carpool lane when it was about 6 months old. I still own it. We drove away from it while the other guy had to wait for a tow truck. We had lots of body damage (like over $4,000 worth, which surprised me that it was that much) but the only mechanical thing wrong was a bent tie rod end. I'm just glad it was the other guy's fault!

tsjay · January 2005

I am TOTALLY happy for ya!

Yeeeeeeeeeeeehawwwwwww!!!!!!

You are most welcome for any help I might have been to you in your quest for a Jeep.

Aren't you glad you waited and got a BRAND NEW Unlimited, and a Rubi to boot?

Now, you need to get some pics posted!

And, I am sure with ya on the Turkey Bay hook up. Wish it could happen.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

jeep-luvrct · January 2005

they may be rugged and durrable but anything is distructable in my sis's hands, she crashed sahara '01 into a tree, the car was totaled and i was pissed

99tj · January 2005

It may not have been a Wrangler, but my 98 Cherokee Sport (the 99 tj replaced it) took a beating! About 2 months after I bought it, I rolled it and was as close to a total loss as you can get. Ins. company decided to fix instead.

The body shop put on a used roof, rear hatch, driver side door, quarter panel, etc...

To my amazement, I never had a problem with it do to the accident. About a year and a half later I hit a black bear while driving through PA. Drove the rest of the way to Ohio, without the need of a tow-truck. The bear did about $3500 worth of damage. It was a solid vehicle from the day I bought it to the day I sold it.

Thank God I don't have a stories like that about my TJ (knock on wood!) Maybe one of these days I'll put it's toughness to the test on some trails!

-Dan

mtngal · January 2005

Have you managed to get some photos up anywhere yet? Can't wait to see it!

koolbreeze2 · January 2005

MTNGAL. Well I am off to Aruba in 2 weeks. I just reserved a Yellow Sport soft top for 10 days. Should be alot of fun. The interior of Aruba has many dirt roads to explore. Anyone out there been to Aruba and explored with a Jeep? Taking my fishing gear to test the waters. Go Easy-John

jefferson1964 · January 2005

A friend of mine just did this on his 90 wrangler. He got the Rhino linning and was all set to do the entire jeep inside and out. However, i talked him out of it and he only did the inside this week. It looks great and actually added some insulation in a way. It ran him $300 but a friend did it so he recieved a discount woulda been $550 for the inside/out.

jefferson1964 · January 2005

i do have a couple of photos up on another site, kinda dark shots though. Im not sure how to post them on this site. Im going to take some better pics soon as i can.

jefferson1964 · January 2005

Im jealous, have fun, love to see some photos....

jeep-luvrct · January 2005

snowed last night we got a little over a foot but with drifts there were some spots with over 3 feet...had some fun till got stuck in one, oh well you live you learn right?

anyone know how to make the axles lock?...as in the tires spin at same speed + torque regardless of traction

tsjay · January 2005

You would be talking about a full locker when you want a tire to pull, even when the opposite tire on that same axle has zero traction. I have one of those on my Thelma Jane. Mine is a Detroit Soft Locker, but there are different types that can be installed. I'm very happy with my Detroit and would highly recommend one.

You should be aware that lockers can have some annoying side effects for street use: they are really best suited for off road use.

When you take a corner, your tires have to spin at different speeds, since the outer tire must travel a longer path than does the inner tire, but it has to travel that distance in the same amount of time.

The outer tire has to be able to turn faster than the inner tire, so the direct connection between the two tires must be interrupted during turns. This is accomplished by the locker releasing in corners and re-engaging once the turn is completed. The release occurs upon deceleration, and the re-engagement when torque is re-applied when the vehicle accelerates after resuming a straight path. (One adjustment in driving style that is necessary when you have a rear locker is that you do not get back on the gas quite as quickly coming out of a sharp turn.)

Lockers vary in the smoothness of their operation. A Detroit Soft Locker will normally disengage and re-engage very smoothly, once a person learns to wait just a split second longer to get back on the gas after a turn. Even with a Detroit, you will know it's back there. To me, the benefits are well worth it, but then I go off roading every weekend. For a Jeep that will see duty only on the street, I don't think I would recommend a locker.

There are selectable lockers, but they are expensive. A selectable locker can be turned on and off. The Rub icons have selectable lockers front and back.

There are after market selectable lockers, like the ARB, which uses compressed air to engage the locker. You have to buy an onboard air compressor as part of the system, if you want ARB's. There is also an Ox brand locker that is cable actuated. There are also some electric selectable lockers out there.

Instead of a locker, what might be best for you is limited slip. Limited slips cause no problem on the pavement: they do not have the quirks of a full locker. For a limited slip to make both tires pull, there has to be at least a little bit of traction on both sides. If one tire is completely off the ground, as often is the case off road, then a limited slip will not make the other tire pull, like a full locker would do. However, a limited slip can sometimes be "fooled" by applying a little brake while the gas pedal is being pushed down. The resistance from the brake can be "interpreted" by the differential as traction, and the tire with better traction will pull.

Hope this helps.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

P.S. I also have a front locker on Thelma Jane, but it is a Lock Right locker. It is not as expensive and not as smooth as a Detroit, but in 2WD it doesn't do anything, so smoothness of operation is not really a factor on a front locker. I hear some clicking noise in tight corners, but that's it.

Some people run Lock Rights in the back, but I'm glad I spent the extra bucks for a Detroit in the back.

mac24 · January 2005

Very good explanation of the lockers Tom (#15626). I posted this with a relevant title to help anyone doing a search in the future.

tsjay · January 2005

jeep-luvrct · January 2005

thanks, if i were to go with only one locker should i go with a front axle or rear? is it worth buying if im only gonna buy one or is it kinda an all or nothing type of deal?

mac24 · January 2005

I've just got back from a 1500 mile road trip, having collected a new (to me) companion vehicle for my Wrangler.

It's got limited slip diffs at both ends and a locking rear, just like a Rubicon, and it rolls on 37" tires. It has a considerably tighter turning circle than the Jeep, 26' vs. 35', and 16" of ground clearance. It's only a couple of inches taller than my Wrangler, but it's longer and wider. However, even though it's coil sprung and has comfy heated leather seats, the ride makes the Wrangler seem like limo.

If I gave more details it would be too easy, but I must say that my wife, who shared the driving, absolutely loves it!

mac24 · January 2005

The answer is partly dependant on the type of driving you will be doing, especially in the question of front vs. rear. If you do a lot of rock crawling or hill climbing then do the front first, otherwise doing the rear first will probably be more beneficial. One is good, two is better. However, financial considerations may be a factor as well.

jeep-luvrct · January 2005

are there any benifits to front vs. back?

thanks for the help guys

mac24 · January 2005

It's often an issue of traction. When you're climbing, most of the vehicle weight is on the rear wheels, so they get plenty of traction. The front will spin a wheel more easily, and a locker will allow the wheel that has the most traction to assist in pulling the vehicle forward. The front pulls you up, the back pushes you, and you nearly always need a combination of the two on a steep climb. The biggest disadvantage of a front locker is that is makes steering very difficult in four wheel drive.

jeep-luvrct · January 2005

ok, well then i guess ill have to look into a rear locker, thanks guys

mtngal · January 2005

I give up - everything I come up with doesn't make sense. I can't imagine anything being a bit longer and wider than the Wrangler and having a tighter turning circle, unless it is a tractor. But I don't think they have heated seats (can't you tell I'm a city girl?).

mac24 · January 2005

No, not a tractor, though I'm sure the ones with a cab have the option of seat heaters.

I can say that it's an '03 in stock factory trim, and it has seat belts and ABS but no airbags. Does that help any?

tsjay · January 2005

Land Rover?

Jeep Wrangler

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