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2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Although, one V6 owner did have his 18 inch wheels switched out to 17's at CR's suggestion and reported little or no improvement.
Also, there are 23 owners reporting in on CRs website on the Avalon. Almost all of the complaints on the ride are V6 owners. For the most part, people aren't complaining about the hybrid's ride.
I am getting more used to the firm ride and I love the seats, they are comfortable to me. I think it was just a shock to me about the change in the suspension and ride coming from my 06 Avalon, but I'm getting over it. Otherwise, I think Toyota did a great job on the redesign. It really does look much more sporty.
Bridgestone must have paid Toyota a small fortune for the account.
Personally, I don't think car tires are as noisy as some claim. Cabin noise comes from three major sources---engine noise, wind noise and tire noise. Automakers use quiet glass to eliminate wind noise and sound deadening materials, noise cancellation technology and insulation to block engine noise.
Unfortunately, these measures have made the cabin so whisper quiet that tire road noises sound louder than they really are. Tire noise is a matter of physics--the noise does not really come from the tire compound itself but rather from the air pockets created when the tire makes contact with the road surface. So you can waste your money switching to a different brand but the tire decibel level will not change appreciable.
In my case, I had to turn my radio up to 20+ on the volume to hear it, and not the tire noise:(
Skip
I have not been on this forum recently, but I noticed your post and thought I could provide my reply.
I did swap out the Bridgestone EL400's for a set of four Michelin Primacy MXM4 tires (P225/45R18) a few weeks ago. So, I now have had the chance to evaluate the ride of the 2013 Avalon for all four combinations of rim size and tire comparisons between Bridgestone and Michelin.
If you use a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is the best, here are my observations:
17" rims with Michelin Primacy MXV4 tires (P215/55R17)..........Score = 9
18" rims with Michelin Primacy MXM4 tires (P225/45R18)..........Score = 7
17" rims with Bridgestone Turenza EL400-02 (P215/55R17).......Score = 4
18" rims with Bridgestone Turenza EL400-02 (P225/45R18).......Score = 4
Note that the Michelin tires are not identical; the MXV4 is a little more ride comfort oriented, while the MXM4 is a little more performance oriented. The MXV4 is quieter than the MXM4 at highway speeds over 50 mph, but the MXM4 is overall much quieter than the Bridgestone tires. The Michelin MXM4 takes the road bumps better than the Bridgestones. The MXV4 is not available in the 18" size.
The best possible ride for the 2013 Avalon appears to come from the combination of the 17" rims with the Michelin MXV4 Primacy tires. I would venture to say that the 2 point improvement in score from 7 to 9 comes 50% due to the larger sidewall and 50% due to the Primacy MXV4 vs. the MXM4 tire design.
Now that I'm riding on the MXM4's on the 18" rims, I would say the ride is OK. It is a reasonable compromise between handling and comfort. I liked the ride on the 17" rims with the MXV's more, but I don't care to spend $1500 to purchase 4 new Toyota 17" OEM rims. You would also need to have a competent mechanic transfer the four TPMS valves to the new rims as well, otherwise you're looking at over an additional $400 for four Toyota OEM TPMS units. My current thinking is to ride the Avalon with the MXM tires, and when it comes time to replace them, consider buying four 17" rims and MXV's then, assuming that I plan on keeping the car for a few more years from that point.
I actually have not tried the suggestion of lowering the tire pressure from 33 to 31 PSI to see if the ride improves, as other posts have suggested. I did note that when I got the car back with the Michelin's installed the fronts were set at 33 PSI, but the back were set at 29 PSI. I didn't like the way the vehicle was riding, and I raised the rear to 33 PSI, and the ride is actually better. The only residual ride annoyance I still observe is that when riding on smooth, but worn, blacktop roads, I seem to feel a sense of riding over a pebbly/gravelly surface, while when I ride on newer blacktop road surfaces, the ride is smooth. This is probably due to the stiffer suspension, as opposed to a softer suspension which would probably filter this out. A little more padding in the seat wouldn't hurt either.
To sum up, I know how well the Avalon can ride with the 17" rims and the MXV4's, but I'm not up to sinking in the cash to switch from 18" to 17" rims at this point. Maybe later on down the road, if I know I'll keep the car for many years.
P.S. Note that just going from 18" to 17" rims without also changing the tires to Michelin MXV4's does nothing to improve the ride in any meaningful way. I believe that this was mentioned in another post on this thread. Also, my observations comparing the Michelin Primacy MXV vs. the MXM tires agrees with the overall reviews of these tires on Tirerack.com. Both Michelins are vastly superior to the Bridgestone El400's, but the MXV is a little quieter than the MXM (but both rate in the excellent range).
I think that one should also consider the possibility that Toyota, the largest manufacturer of cars in the world, might have known what they were doing when they put 18" rims on the top of the newly redesigned Avalon line. Handling and appearance are generally felt to improve with larger wheels, and many of the costliest and most admired performance/luxury cars such as Bentley sport wheels up to 20" in size.
Robert N.
Thanks so much for the detailed analysis. I appreciate it so very much.
This is great information to have and I will probably do as you have done and just hang onto the 18" wheels and replace with Michelin tires next time around. I'll be sure and look for the tire that you have switched to. I agree that sinking an additional $2K into the car for 17" wheels is a bit steep after paying for the car. I usually keep my cars for at least 8 years so if I do keep this one that long, I may eventually switch the wheels out but for now, I am just getting used to the ride. If I find a few years down the road that I need a more floaty ride, I guess I can upgrade to the Lexus or get a Caddy. LOL. I really didn't want one of those ;-)
Thank you again for the information, it is really helpful.
Teresa
The one thing that has me confused is CR's report on the V6 and hybrid Limiteds. The V6 they tested had Michelin Primacy MXM4 size P225/45R18 91V tires and they said that if you value ride comfort go with the 17 inch rims as they "noticeably take off the edge and make the ride less harsh" So what you are saying that it is all in the tire doesn't agree with CR is assessment.
Michelin makes both the Primacy MXM4 and MXV4 in the 17" size, but the Primacy MXV4 has the edge in ride comfort and noise, although both Michelin's are way better than the Bridgestone Turenza EL400-02's. The MXV4 does cost a little more than the MXM4.
I have found on my LS 460 model that the bridgestone serenity model is much smoother and almost noise free compared to the Pilot Michelins MXM4 that came on the car. But then I was comparing a worn OEM tire with the new Serenity. I did not see Bridgestone Serenitys on the Avalon or ES 350- any Bridgestone tire on those 2 models were a lower line model
If I buy an ES 350 , it will be 17 inch Michelins for me- driven several and it is the only way to go if you want comfort and less noise. Compared to the Avalon (which I thinks looks better), the ES drives better when both have 18's.
Couldn't find an Avalon with 17's that had nav, etc. Not sure if the suspensions on the cars change depending on which size tire you get.
In summary, I prefer the michelin 17's on the ES and Bridgestone Serenity on the LS. I am comfort oriented and want QUIET. I see no reason to improve handling 10% and screw up the ride 60%. If I wanted sport and handling, I would buy a different car
I also drove MKZ hybrid and overall better in curves and suspension feels also sporty but absorbs smaller bumps better. The cargo is smaller but at least you can fold the rear seats. Seems also quieter. But there are downsides with MKZ:
- (too) small tank (13.2 cu ft compared to 17)
- smaller cargo area with seats up
- less spacious (less rear seat leg room).
- Real world highway mpg is bit lower according to CR
"Driving experience
The car rides and handles quite well. As a previous Avalon owner (2008) there was
concern about the ride, especially given CR's review. However, the ride is fine
and the concerns are, IMHO, overblow"
How many people here tested the Camry hybrid before buying the Avalon hybrid and thought that the Camry had a better ride? CR rated the Camry's ride as superior to the Avalon's.
I've had 4 Avalons in the past few years (A new 2008, that I traded (with 68,000 miles after 15 months) for a New 2010, that I traded (with 45,000 miles after 11 months) for a New 2013, that I traded (with 3700 miles in 30 days) for a New 2012.
I traded the 2013 because it was louder, and much less comfortable. Even though I put mostly highway miles on (35,000+ a year), it was to loud on the highway, and when I was on rougher roads, it was way to uncomfortable for my liking.
I REALLY wanted the 2013 to be a wonderful car, and in many ways it is, just not in the ways I needed it to be.
It was:
- Louder
- LESS Comfortable
- Smaller back seat
- Smaller trunk opening
- No reclining back seat (my passengers REALLY like this feature)
- Smaller or different interior space / feel.
I LOVED:
- Tech Package
- Quiet Wipers
- Fit, Finish and trim (for the most part).
- Looks of the car, is Great!
Skip
I'm guessing that was a 2013 V6 Limited with 18 inch wheels that you traded in for the 2012?
Chris
Yours may well be the most heavily publicized personal change of car models in modern American history. Again and again and yet again, in this forum and in the Toyota Nation Avalon forum, and probably elsewhere, you have made the same points over and over. We know why you switched, we accept your reasons but maybe you should consider giving it a rest and moving on.
For others who might be interested, let me say that my 2013 Avalon Limited V6, with Michelin Primacy MXM4 225/45R18 tires is a tremendous car. I love the taut, controlled ride, the responsive handling and the smooth impressive power. The fit and finish are extraordinarily good, even compared with my previous Lexus LS430 and ES300. As I have posted before, for those who find the ride a bit stiff, dropping the tire pressure from 33 PSI to 31 PSI can make a significant difference.
Robert N.
It has the tech package because I really missed the dynamic cruise control. Color is crimson mica.
Also in curves I don't feel like sliding off the seat. I'm fine with sporty suspension but seats don't seem to quite support it.
But will do another test drive with hybrid with smaller 17" and see how that compares since I still prefer finding good hybrid first.
I wish there would be a model or options in-between XLE touring and limited. The jump of 4K is bit big and don't need all those options.
Also noticed another poor small overlap test for Toyota with RAV4. So not sure Avalon would do much better but at least it got bit more airbags maybe...
I had the Camry non-hybrid as a rental car for 2 weeks. It absorbs bumps more cushioned but still more body lean than I like and not enough feedback. Hybrid might be different but probably not much. This is what CR says:
"The ride is subdued, and the suspension feels more tied down and better controlled than previous Camrys. Bumps are soaked up well with impressive isolation."
I'd prefer the Avalon suspension but personal preference. Except I don't want to feel small vibrations so will do test drive this week with Avalon hybrid to see how it compares.
I'm not considering the Camry since the cost cutting is too evident to me. The Avalon has much better interior quality and more interesting exterior design. CR probably rated it also higher since it's better value (with slightly higher FE and better acceleration).
However, going forward I don't think there are too many alternatives that can beat this car outside of maybe the Lexus hybrid version. I did drive a Camry hybrid several months before purchasing the TAH Limited and I wasn’t overly impressed at the time with the overall feel of the vehicle. It just seemed run of the mill not like the Avalon hybrid which allowed for rationalizing a whole bunch of extras not offered on the Camry. Also, if you’re going pay serious money for a new vehicle you have to keep it for at least 10 years and that means that it has to be future proof. Which means that it better get at least 30 mpg combined under worst case driving. I was driving an older Lexus RX300 which got 17 mpg. Now I’m averaging 33.9 (3180 miles/93.9 gallons). I would have bought a Lexus 450H SUV but the gas mileage wasn’t there and I was tired of driving a SUV plus probably another 10K fully equipped. On smooth roads the TAH hybrid excels and you can’t beat the technology packages especially the adaptive cruise control. And, the car is fun to drive, something I don’t think you can say about then Camry.
I’m hoping that the TAH’s road isolation will improve some when I replace the Bridgstones with Michelin Primacy MXV4 tires. Maybe, that is something you can insist on if and when you buy your TAH. Good luck with your test drive and let us know what you think.
Chris
Think about this on CR assessment: they said FR-S is somewhat stiff but not too punishing by sports car standards. Well I test drove one and I think that's an understatement (unless it was an issue with the demo). They expect each category of cars to have certain suspension setup and they classify Avalon as a "large plush sedan". Yet it's same size as Honda Accord and it's quite a different vehicle now. But I agree the V6 doesn't absorb bumps as good as Accord or MKZ. But with hybrid 17" should be better and as you say other tires should help.
There's no perfect car as they find issues in all cars and the hybrid model still got 86 points. The poor perf of IIHS small overlap for several Toyota models so far would concern me more than suspension. But then again only few cars so far had good ratings and ES/Avalon '13 hasn't been tested yet with this new test.
I agree with what you are saying. I bought my Avalon the day before that CR article came out. GRRRRR.... If I had read the article before I bought my car, I probably would have waited and test driven more models of more cars before signing on the dotted line. However, that being said, I really do like the look inside and out of the new Avalon. I love the handling, it is very much improved. The only thing that I find annoying, is the ride quality. If the roads are smooth, the car rides like a dream. If not, you feel every bump. It's true.
I really like the car just a little miffed about the ride and can't wait to replace those tires. The two features I really like the blind spot monitor and the cross traffic alert. I think those features are the best additions to the car and I hope Toyota decides to make those two safety features standard on all models eventually.
Also checked again driving fast through curves and it doesn't lean much but passenger seat isn't quite holding you so you slide little bit (driver seat was ok). But overall it was alright even though not quite as good as some other cars.
Fuel consumption was pretty good for quick test drive. Got about 40 mpg in mixed driving. Didn't quite get 43 mpg on highway that CR got (at 65 mph) but mpg should get little better over time and drive was bit short to accurately measure it.
I don't think it's all because of the tires since I'm fine with stiffer ride as long as it doesn't vibrate the small bumps in the road. I think the shock absorbers don't have much play and are too stiff (not sure which suspension setup is in this car). You should be able to change or adjust those as well (with some cost).
If you reduce PSI then you do get reduced fuel economy as well. Maybe Toyota will consider making some changes for '14 model after all but I think I can live with it though Accord has better overall ride so I partially agree with CR there. But for me that's not the only criteria. You always have some trade-offs.
2 PSI in a lightly loaded car shouldn't hurt the mileage too much.
"As I drove the car home off the lot, it had a noticable vibration and a terrible ride. Dealer said there was nothing wrong. Turns out it was the tires. Toyota put cheap crummy tires on it and the dealer agreed with me, but says his hands are tied. After 500 miles, I replaced them with top of the line Michelins. HUGE improvement in the ride quality. (OEM tires were Bridgestone EL400s - they're terrible!)"
I think I'll go with the H-speed rated Michelin MXV4s over the over the V-rated because they got higher scores in ride and noise as well as rolling resistance over the Vs.