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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My accountant says he loves Turbo Tax---it creates so many screw-ups that he gets extra business! That's what he says, anyway.

    I don't do much work on my Mini Cooper anymore, except glue back on all the parts that fall off, and hunt down rattles and squeaks. I know I could do quite a few things, but I don't enjoy working on modern cars at all.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Is this trend really surprising?

    As I type this, sitting in my kitchen, I'm looking at my stove.

    It has electronic controls for the oven and flat-surface ceramic cooktop. The oven has hidden heating elements.

    30 years ago, it would have had plug-in burner "eyes" and all-manual mechanical controls for the oven and each surface unit. I could swap out any failed component in a matter of minutes. I have no idea how to fix a failed "eye" or how to accurately troubleshoot failed components on the unit I have today.

    Yet, the stove/cooktop style unit I have is what the buying public demands today. While not totally, we as consumers have, to a large part, no one to blame but ourselves...
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited January 2013
    Yet, the stove/cooktop style unit I have is what the buying public demands today. While not totally, we as consumers have, to a large part, no one to blame but ourselves

    Remote Start Systems....Navigation Systems....Hybrids and Electrics....Parking Assist....300+ horsepower and yet 30+mpg....infotainment....Creature Comforts....Traction and stability control systems....The list goes on and on today. In a word, it's Robotics.

    I have no idea how to fix a failed "eye" or how to accurately trouble-shoot failed components on the unit I have today.

    The disturbing part is that even if you could, who's to say that you will find a replacement part that you might need? We had to replace our old stove last year because of parts obsolescence. (It was 25+ years old) I would have rather repaired it than replace it but there were not parts to be found anywhere. The same thing happened to our air conditioner this year.

    All of these appliances are simple to diagnose and repair using the very same tools (voltmeters, amp clamps, oscilloscopes) and techniques that we have for today's cars. Heck we even have to deal with higher voltages and currents today than you'll find at work in your house. (Ford Escape Hybrid 650v 3phase AC between the invertor and the transaxle) If I shared some of the Nissan Leaf, and Chevrolet Volt stuff that I'm presently studying it reads like SAE white papers and leaglease. It's mind numbingly boring but we have to make the effort or we won't be ready when one finally shows up at our doors.

    Just wait until 80% of the new car fleet are hybrids, with gasoline direct injection, and super or turbocharged, maybe even clean diesel, that's projected to be only a few years away!
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Seems everyone thinks that being an electrician is simple too

    Evidently, some electricians seem to think so to.

    Just last year I had the electrical service in my house upgraded from 100 amp to 200 amp service. I had the electrician put in a new 200 amp main panel in the laundry room, and so converted the original main panel into a sub panel.

    One problem I found was that they ran a 14 gauge cable out to the garage, but brought it off a 20 amp breaker. This is a no-no, and is one of the things you learn in the first 10 minutes reading any electrical how-to book.

    Then, they left the neutral and grounds connected together in the new sub panel (the old main panel). Again, this is prohibited by the NEC which requires that neutrals and grounds be kept separate at sub panels and only connected together at the main panel.

    They also cut out a wall stud in order to mount the new panel. This was on a load bearing wall, so I had to go in and add another stud to take the place of the one they cut out.

    Finally, they left the original feed going into the old main panel. While this may not be a code violation, it just didn't make sense to leave a bunch of disconnected wires laying around in the panel.

    None of these are mistakes I would have made had I done the job myself. And yes, a permit was pulled and the county inspector signed off on the work.

    So much for skilled electricians!

    BTW, nice video. I'm going to back and look at some of the other related ones.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I think I've only had two alternators fail in all the cars I've had

    The only one I can remember having a problem with was in a Datsun 260-Z. Problem was really in the rectifier pack that was mounted in the alternator. One of the diodes shorted out, which was allowing the battery to discharge through the shorted diode. Picked up on that when the ammeter showed a slight discharge (negative current) when the key was off. Luckily, I could buy and replace just the rectifier pack.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I don't do much work on my Mini Cooper anymore, except glue back on all the parts that fall off

    LOL!
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

    But... Seriously, I hear you loud and clear.

    I don't know about where you live, but its not unusual around my neck of the woods to find the county inspectors were private contractors in an earlier life, but failed at it. So, they became inspectors.

    When I bought my current home, I remodeled it before moving in. Fortunately, I was retired and was able to monitor the subs, and on more than one occasion I had to point out code deficiencies in what was being done.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    http://www.dexknows.com/local/automotive/vehicle_service_and_repair/oil_change/

    The worst part is the author thinks he knows what he is talking about.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    pretty lame.... :(
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Better Dex than Dexos. :P
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I don't see the page actually saying much that's definite. It's mostly consult your car maker's recommendation. The 7000 mi is probably what my Buicks will give if I followed their oil life indicators, even higher most likely. And that would be for the regular oil recommended in the manual for both, not the synthetic which I use.

    What's the professional opinion on MotorKote?

    It seems like the STP of the 2010's. Listen to ATN (America's Trucking Netowrk) on 700 am radio and it's on there with the pusher in person on some shows saying use it for everything, oiling your garden gate, your dieself over-the-road truck your gasoline engine, your transmission, your differential, your snow shovel (this morning on 760 WJR Detroit's Car Talk show). Claims are it attaches itself to metal and protects the important parts of your engine.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Now for anyone who doesn't understand Steve's attempt at humor, dexos is GM's current oil specification, API SN and ILSAC GF5 fall short of it's requirements. If the green dexos label isn't on the front of the bottle, then it does not meet GM's specification, period. There is a forum here on oil and in one of them specifically there are numerous complaints about oil consumption on certain GM engines. One of the contributing factors for those complaints is that when someone services those cars with a product that fails to meet GM's specs, you end up with deposits forming in the piston ring lands and that contributes to the elevated oil consumption that is being reported. GM's specs also require a much lower volatility than API and ILSAC, and we haven't even touched on the emission systems requirements for the oil.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I also thought the statement in that article that if you used the wrong viscosity, "the engine's metal parts will rub together" was kind of funny.

    If an engine's metal parts rub together, they do that for about 10 seconds!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    What's the professional opinion on MotorKote

    It's a tangeled track to the answer, but they quote the use of "The Falex-Timken Lubricity Test". Not to be confused with the "Flex-Timken" test.

    Here is Mobile 1's answer about another oil that addresses a question on the subject.

    http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Oil_Film_Strength- .aspx

    That link came from a thread from "Bob is the oil guy"

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2312175

    To sum it up, that bearing test is something that would apply to extreme pressure lubricants, not engine oils. So that means MotorKote likely overdoses ZDDP which means it would ruin o2 sensors and catalytic convertors if used in OBDII gasoline engines.

    GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda and just about everyone else warn against the use of additives and make no exceptions about being ready to void warranties if they are used.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Funny, I just read The Machine Stops online last night.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    It's going to take me a few readings to get through it, but I did notice one interesting thing I missed the first time, 1909.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh "futurists"---often wrong, but never in doubt. :P

    Remember flying cars?
    The end of libraries?
    Men on mars?
    War will become impossible?
    Home robots?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Terrafugia, net/Kindles & the Roomba.

    3 out of 5? :D
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,687
    No practical flying cars yet. Thank goodness! Texting + flying, oh my!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Absurd useless laughable piles of junk.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Looks like they were a little short on mechanics to fix their machine. ;)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    On the bright side, if you had a flying car, instead of delivering pizza, you could do crop-dusting...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I would imagine that a flying car would be much like a floating car---it would make for a bad car and a bad airplane.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >...a flying car would be much like a floating car---it would make for a bad car and a bad airplane.

    Not if it's a Buick...

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    And old car hobbyists say it's the government that's trying to destroy old cars?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Some guy who lives in my neighborhood has an Amphacar (sp?). I'll see him driving it once in awhile but I don't know if he ever puts it in our nearby lake.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,099
    IIRC, the [non-permissible content removed] Feds sunk that thing, too. Shame, I'd pay to see that in a museum.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Jayne Mansfield's car... was that a Buick?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yes it was! I seem to recall it was a 1965 Electra.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited January 2013
    Paul Danner, AKA "scannerdanner" on YouTube has been working to keep pace with the technology in the cars. While our careers are different a lot of the goals are the same. He has a strong web presence and because of working through the school he has a lot more play time than I do. What he does with his time to play is noteworthy.

    http://www.scannerdanner.com/

    What you will find there is the blending of the academic skills that a technician must have today, with the raw talent that makes a person capable of being a great mechanic. Machines will never replace what a top mechanic has to be able to do, machines by nature will faulter and fail without trained and experienced people to take care of them.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,657
    And old car hobbyists say it's the government that's trying to destroy old cars?

    IIRC, the government destroyed that one, once they seized it. I think they scuttled it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    one must presume it was already "modified" beyond redemption anyway.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >IIRC, the government destroyed that one, once they seized it. I think they scuttled it.

    Do you know the story on that picture?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Do you know the story on that picture?

    http://www.floatingcubans.com/
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited January 2013
    Hmmm, I thought this would bring out some needed dialog. Or maybe everyone's been waiting because they want post #1000....

    When you really see what goes into diagnostics, which Dan has done a great job representing, it takes the perceptions like CarMD, and others who think pulling a code and slamming a part is all there is to it and proves they couldn't be more wrong with what they preach. It's never been the way that they want to try and say that it is and trying to convince the public that their toy of a tool will do everything that a consumer might need wasn't being honest with them. The trick is Dan's site doesn't even cover everything that we do today, he's only got on there material for his students to work from, not some of the really complicated stuff that we have to use to challenge the real master techs that are out there today.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited January 2013
    I thought this would bring out some needed dialog.

    First time through, I wasn't sure what we were supposed to look at on the site you linked to - scannerdanner.com. Went back and found out you could scroll through the graphics.

    It was hard to tell what they were trying to show, in some cases.

    Fig 17&18, I didn't realize some manufacturer's biased their O2 sensors above ground.

    Fig 23, not sure what we're looking at - injector current?

    Fig 4 (Saturated Switch Waveform) was really informative. So was 13, 14, & 12 (dirty throttle body).
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Fig 17&18, I didn't realize some manufacturer's biased their O2 sensors above ground.

    Yea that's a Chrysler trick. Toyota's A/F sensors are even stranger where you read the current flow to know what the actual A/F ratio is. The sensor voltage would be read between 3.0v (rich) and 3.5v (lean), with 3.3v being "normal".

    Fig 23, not sure what we're looking at - injector current

    Using the low amps probe and an oscilloscope is the right way to monitor many of the outputs from on board computers.

    Again, what you see there is the easy stuff, and actually the catalytic convertor test that he has there is actually flawed and isn't a good representation for what a tech needs to know. While to a certain level of understanding it is easy to expect that is accurate, with deeper education we learn why it's not a reliable test.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What *IS* a reliable catalytic converter test? :confuse:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,657
    What *IS* a reliable catalytic converter test?

    A hacksaw, a straight piece of pipe, and a roll of "Tiger Paw (tm)" tape! :P
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    What *IS* a reliable catalytic converter test?

    Check for any exhaust leaks upstream of the catalyst, and before the downstream O2 sensor. Check for any TSB's and confirm that the PCM has the most up to date software. Monitor vehicle operation while checking fuel trim corrections and engine load pids, and if nothing is found then you trust the PCM in the case of a P0420, P0430.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    A hacksaw, a straight piece of pipe, and a roll of "Tiger Paw (tm)" tape

    That's a lot of work and it could be all for naught. We pull an upstream O2 sensor and install a pressure gage when possible, or pull a spark plug and install the pressure transducer and do a snap throttle and read the exhaust backpressure that way.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited January 2013
    In a departure from what I usually talk about with my weekly radio show I'll be having a guest come in who is one of the directors for Pittsburgh's yearly auto show. Traditionally when involved in any of the local auto shows the last thing that they want to talk about is what it takes to (or is going to take to) service and repair the next generation of cars. Meanwhile, that's all I'm ever really focused on so I need some input on exactly what topics should be brought up. The hour long show that I do typically can have six phone calls, and they will take care of themselves, that can leave some twenty minutes for host conversation.

    If you were in my place, what are the questions that you would like to ask? Keep in mind that at this moment I'm not sure the guest will be aligned with any one manufacturer. That's something I need to check on this week, I'm inclined to expect that he is not going to be manufacturer specific. If there are some topics here in Edmunds that might make for good subject matter, how about a link?

    I will say one of the fun things about the auto show is how my listeners react to the ticket giveaways we did last weekend. Seems lots of people are excited about going to the auto show this year.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    When I went to the Detroit show a couple of years ago, I noticed that several manufacturers had "tech" displays of (mostly) engines and transmissions. Cut-aways or an assortment of shiny parts in a display case.

    My feeling was that these displays didn't get a lot of traffic and that besides looking the cars, people wanted to fool around with the video games and such. The "get your photo taken with a Fiat" exhibit was popular.

    Guess I'd be interested to learn if the demographics are getting any younger, and what displays really draw the people in.

    You may want to cross-post this over in 2013 Auto Show Season.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,657
    That's a lot of work and it could be all for naught.

    Oh, I just meant that as a joke. Plus, nowadays the emissions controls are so integral that if you pull something off, you probably make it run worse!

    Just out of curiosity, when did they start putting O2 sensors in cars? Would something as old as my '79 5th Ave, or '85 Silverado have one? Or did they go in as soon as they started using catalytic converters? I know my old '88 LeBaron had one, because when it failed (or rather, a wire running to it got burned), it triggered something and made the engine start over-revving, and even at idle, I think it was pulling about 2000 rpm.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,687
    Wasn't Volvo's 'Lambda' sensor (1977) one of the first O2 sensor setups?
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    In a departure from what I usually talk about with my weekly radio show I'll be having a guest come in who is one of the directors for Pittsburgh's yearly auto show. Traditionally when involved in any of the local auto shows the last thing that they want to talk about is what it takes to (or is going to take to) service and repair the next generation of cars. Meanwhile, that's all I'm ever really focused on so I need some input on exactly what topics should be brought up. The hour long show that I do typically can have six phone calls, and they will take care of themselves, that can leave some twenty minutes for host conversation.

    Here's my suggestion for a topic...

    While its related to the area you say your guests typically wish to avoid, how about asking where they see the repair techs coming from in the future (ie., what kind of educational backgrounds, training programs, etc.)? What places offer such an education? How do they feel the issue should be addressed? Are the manufacturers going to take over the training, or will they co-op with tech schools/universities to train new mechanics?

    Looks to me lie you could spend hours on the subject.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,763
    I'm curious about what nanny technologies are likely to become more widespread in the next gen of cars, and how that might/will impact diagnostics and repair.

    For example, you have several makes with parallel parking programs that park the car for the driver. Subaru has its "eyesight" system that is supposed to warn the driver of lane departure, maintain following distances, etc. Traction control systems are getting more and more invasive and trying to compensate for the driver, etc.

    Of course all of this stuff is going to mean drivers in the future are even less competent at driving a vehicle than they are now, so keeping it functioning (or perhaps disabling it safely for those who still want to drive their own car) is going to be a big concern.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    BTW, is your show available over the Internet?

    Living in SC, I don't have much success picking up radio programs originating on-air in PA.

    I'd love to give your show a good "listening to"... I'm sure it is interesting!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Oh, I just meant that as a joke.
    I figured that ;)

    Just out of curiosity, when did they start putting O2 sensors in cars?

    That's something that I haven't really thought about for a while. For the most part they got phased in over about a six year period. I will actually have to look it up to find out who was "first".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor

    Well it looks like it was Saab and Volvo in '76. I remember the first one I saw was associated with the Ford Variable Venturi 7200 carburetor. GM had O2 sensors on a couple models in 79, and then in 80 1/2 they came out with the C4 system (computer controlled catalytic convertor).

    It was almost six years later that some of the last aisan cars finally had feedback controls, and it wasn't until 95 that they had scan tool communication. GM had that in 80 1/2.

    Now back to the wiki article. I scanned over it fast, it needs a re-write in number of places. The article states;

    The sensor does not actually measure oxygen concentration, but rather the difference between the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas and the amount of oxygen in air.

    That is incorrect.

    Rich mixture causes an oxygen demand. This demand causes a voltage to build up, due to transportation of oxygen ions through the sensor layer. Lean mixture causes low voltage, since there is an oxygen excess.

    That part is correct.
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