A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Two conflicting statements,

That's essentially my point, If you take the time to look at everyone's posts you will see all of the conflicting statements over and over again.

The mechanic is wrong if he follows the book, he's wrong if he doesn't.
The mechanic is wrong if he doesn't get a bolt tight enough, he's wrong if he over-tightens it, he's even wrong if he grabs a torque wrench and measures how tight the oil drain plug is (Shifty did that one a few months back)

The mechanic is only right when he does things for free, except for the fact that he can't earn a living and stay in business that way.

but you did verify my comment's validity in your second comment

Did I really or is that just another contradiction?

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I'm certainly no miser, and I understand the cars I drive aren't cheap to maintain (modern BMW's), but at the same time, I don't give my dealer carte blanche whenever I take my car in for service or repair.

Let's compare the dynamics of what you just wrote to the picture of a single mom in a 2000 Neon that needs front brakes, rotors, and calipers.
Your monthly payment is more than her repair job.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Doc wrote: "so then why attack taking a legitimate approach to be the best one can be at this trade?

ME: I'm not paying you to be the best in your trade--your primary mission, in my point of view, is to fix my car correctly and for a fair price, and as efficiently as possible. You don't have to be the best--you only have to be good enough to fix my car, keeping costs as reasonable as you can.

It doesn't matter to me if you can repair a Saturn V rocket or do a cam chain on a Lamborghini--I only care that you can fix a Mini Cooper :P

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I'd like to get thecardoc3's take on the comments below, taken from the BMW 3-series forum, posted today.

I'll play but the tech in me right now is saying this scenario is pretty far fetched, but even so had this occurred in my shop it would have been quite a nightmare. I can't imagine recovering even a fraction of the cost of the materials, let alone the labor or the tows. Fortunately I own my own tow truck, so at least I wouldn't have been bleeding that cash out to someone else too.

Although I did have a customer who had someone sabotaging his cars, who had my loaner car and it got pop dumped into the fuel tank and quit on him. I took that one on the chin just like I'm betting this guys shop did.

Specifically, I'd like to know what your approach in dealing with the car owner would be if he dropped the car off at your shop and gave you the explanation below... I have an opinion, but I don't want to jade the "conversation" by giving it before seeing your response. Please make any comments you feel inclined to make. Thanks

Based on the description I'd first verify that the car not starting was again being caused by a loss of fuel pressure. Then I'd be measuring how much current the pump was drawing. A locked up pump will typically draw about 2.5 to 3 times as much current as a pump does when its running normally. Plus with using the low amps probe and the oscilloscope to make that measurement I would see if the armature was turning or not prior to tearing anything apart. This lets me know without disturbing anything if the pump not running is a matter of a bad connection or wiring harness problem that is dropping the voltage available to the pump or not.

Now lets look at the speculation posted.

At this point, after thoroughly checking the car, he cut open the original fuel pump. The impeller had swollen. He emptied the fuel tank, saving a sample of the fuel. He believed that the fuel had caused all of the fuel pumps to fail.

The proof would be essentially that re-fueling the car and letting it sit overnight again didn't result in yet another weird failure.

BTW, I would also have measured the pump current and stored a current waveform for my new pump right when it was put in, and then re-compared that to what I could capture the next morning.

I also live in the Hudson Valley, NY. The issue here is neither the age of the car nor the age of the fuel pumps. Even the make of the pump cannot be blamed because my mechanic used both BMW and non-BMW parts trying to repair this 2001 BMW 325xi

Maybe important information, and maybe totally irrelevant. But it doesn't hurt to know. However when actually doing the diagnostics, the tech needs to completely forget any of that and test for what the car is doing right now. Otherwise they risk winding up in a state that I call "Tainted Intuition". Anyone trying to figure this out needs to ignore that for the moment as well.

Something is seriously wrong and potentially dangerous if alcohol placed in fuel can essentially melt the part

Totally bogus unless you got lines of broken Beemers on the streets over there with the fuel pumps licked up. I'm pretty sure there would be other models that use identical pump designs as well. Has the entire county come to a sudden standstill?

It's both the fault of oil companies and the car makers. For what it is worth, in Westchester Co, a higher ethanol content is required during certain months of the year, higher than surrounding counties.

Westchester county. I've taught classes in Armonk. Beautiful area, but they don't have any greater alcohol contect by law than anyone else. RVP (reed vapor pressure) has to be changed seasonally. You need fuel that so that the fuel evaporates easier in cold weather than it does in warmer weather. This can be done in a number of ways, but that shouldn't be totally confused with the oxygenates that are added to today's fuels as well which is where the alcohols come into play. (They formally used MTBE but hopefully everyone understands what was wrong with them)

Guessing, and that includes having to accept the story as presented, the fuel may have caused the failure, but it seems unlikely that it was the alcohol. Heck the alcohol content could even be tested easily by using a graduated cylinder and taking about 90ml of fuel and adding 10ml of water to it and then shake it up. The alcohol will settle out with the water and then the actual percentage of alcohol in the sample could be proven. I'm going to suspect that there is another compound at play here, and it would have to be something that is very unfriendly to his "plastic impeller".

BTW, a plastic impeller in his fuel pump? I don't make a habit of tearing pumps apart but I cannot think of any that use plastic for the pump mechanism. Besides alcohols and plastics usually play nice. :shades:

I think there is more to the story.....

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I only care that you can fix a Mini Cooper

And so I bought a specific scan tool and associated software to add that manufacturer to my list of supported cars. It cost me $226 a month for the next three years. Now if I use it at the most once a month, what should I be charging you?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

That's your problem, however. I didn't ask you to buy the scan tool or to go into the Mini Repair business (not a bad idea, though, as you would have an endless supply of broken cars :P ).

If you hang a Mini repair sign on your window, I would expect a good repair at a fair price. It's not my obligation to underwrite your infrastructure investment. You, as a business man, have to make these decisions----"hmm.....is there enough MINI business around for me to justify investing in special tools? Also, what's the Mini repair competition in my area? Also, do I even like working on these cars?"

Case in point -- the shop I go to fixes MINIs as well as a few other makes---they are very good, but quite expensive....if I drive over to Oakland, another 15 minutes or so, I can use a MINI specialist who is just as good but considerably cheaper.

Does this mean that the expensive shop is better than the cheaper one? Not at all! It may be that the cheaper shop runs more efficiently, has a lower overhead, or....well, who knows why?

do I care why? Nope---as long as my car keeps running well.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Does this mean that the expensive shop is better than the cheaper one? Not at all! It may be that the cheaper shop runs more efficiently, has a lower overhead, or....well, who knows why?

Imagine simply dropping them in my neighborhood. They would both be seen as outrageously priced.

If you hang a Mini repair sign on your window, I would expect a good repair at a fair price. It's not my obligation to underwrite your infrastructure investment.

Nor anyone elses, but many make it their place to try and undermine our investments, with nothing more than the contradictions like are in this forum.

You, as a business man, have to make these decisions----"hmm.....is there enough MINI business around for me to justify investing in special tools?

Now multiply that thought for all of the different manufacturers. Some will be reasonable, others totally unreasonable to tool up for. (Mini actually belongs to the second group)

Also, what's the Mini repair competition in my area? Also, do I even like working on these cars?"

We have the chain stores that sell tires and do alignments, and quick lubes that are putting who knows what in the cars. That leaves only the high tech stuff un-touched. Kinda hard to justify unless I do it for the person and not for the money. But wait, someone will still accost me for trying because after all you might be a single mother. Some picture isn't it.....

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Well nobody said running an auto repair shop was easy.

I would say that ultimately, the greatest challenge for the shop owner might be one of maintaining a balanced view of the customer and not being soured by the small percentage of them who are chiselers, law-suit happy, ungrateful, cheap and all the rest.

Auto repair is by nature definitely not a "touchy feely" business, like dentistry or chiropractic or a hair salon. No one really expects you to be a caring sensitive person and I suspect they don't plan to reciprocate that way either.

One of my friends who runs a shop greatly reduced his own stress levels by hiring a very personable "front man" to run the office, take appointments, give people their bills and explain the charges (or give them estimates beforehand).

Not only does this reduce the owner's stress, it has given him valuable extra hours to work on the cars.

The "front man" is pretty unflappable. He's a guard dog, a diplomat, an accountant and a service provider.

Owner loves it, customers love it, it's a win-win.

busiris · February 2013

Thanks for your analysis. I agree, there's more to the story...and if alcohol is the culprit (or complicit), it makes one wonder if the guy was running (attempting to run) E-85 instead of the approved fuel for the car.

Other than throwing fuel pumps at the problem, I was intrigued that the tech only opened the original fuel pump to come to his determination.

If it did indeed happen as described... That's a pretty good example of looking at a problem and coming to a determination without examining all the available evidence. Lots of things can cause a fuel pump failure, after all... Another example of throwing parts at a problem...

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

If it matters, I thought the diagnosis was wrong after the first few sentences because, as Doc so aptly put it, if the fuel was the issue with BMWs, they'd be scattered all over the highway.

I'm always amazed how some people will accept the least likely cause of a problem long before they've considered the most likely one.

busiris · February 2013

Well, I will be the first to admit that the job is much tougher than it looks- especially for shops that strive to provide quality service for all makes.

I question whether it makes economic sense to attempt to provide service for all makes, especially in smaller shops. It might prove out financially for a large, urban location to do so, but I really don't think one can be financially successful in a 2-3 man shop trying to service every make and model out there.

Since physicians were brought up earlier, which would you rather have perform open heart surgery on you... A GP or a Cardiologist?

busiris · February 2013

If it matters, I thought the diagnosis was wrong after the first few sentences because, as Doc so aptly put it, if the fuel was the issue with BMWs, they'd be scattered all over the highway

Me, too. That's why I didn't state my opinion at the beginning, because I didn't want to color any possible response one way or the other.

IMO, the tech needs to re-evaluate the logic he's using...

stever · February 2013

And would you rather the docs try some meds for your seizures first instead of surgery? The gas cap before the sensor replacement if you will.

The problem with diagnostic trees is that the yes/no option frequently only gives the most common cause for that particular step in the tree. And that can be wrong.

busiris · February 2013

Well, I'd certainly appreciate it if a few tests were run on me before the doctor started chasing me around the ER with a scalpel in his hand....

thecardoc3 · February 2013

it makes one wonder if the guy was running (attempting to run) E-85 instead of the approved fuel for the car.

He would have had big problems right away. It takes about 30% more fuel by volume to run E-85 than it does E-10. (What they have in weschecter).

His fuel trims can't make that much of an adjustment, it would have coded and been forced to openloop and he would have "broke down" on the road, not after sitting overnight.

Other than throwing fuel pumps at the problem, I was intrigued that the tech only opened the original fuel pump to come to his determination.

Grain of salt needed here. The poster is saying the alcohol in the fuel is doing it. The poster is saying the event actually occurred. I need proof.

If it did indeed happen as described... That's a pretty good example of looking at a problem and coming to a determination without examining all the available evidence.

If it did happen, the shop/technician is out a small fortune when you consider the parts that are not warranty failures, the labor lost and the towing fees. The tech simply needs this running right and get moving back onto work that will produce revenues. No-one should expect him to invest even as much time as it took me to write this response beyond what he did already. At this point "Something about the Fuel" did it. He took a sample, he's done. Heck if the owner turns this over to his insuranace company the tech will be dissed for not knowing the fuel was the cause of the first pump failing by the adjuster. (As if he "the adjuster" would have known, yea right...)

Another example of throwing parts at a problem...

Ahhh,, See what I mean?

busiris · February 2013

He would have had big problems right away. It takes about 30% more fuel by volume to run E-85 than it does E-10. (What they have in weschecter).

His fuel trims can't make that much of an adjustment, it would have coded and been forced to openloop and he would have "broke down" on the road, not after sitting overnight.

That's assuming a completely full tank of E-85.

What happens when its a partial tank of E-85, say 2, 3 or 5 gallons? Lots of folks "top-off" tanks and don't wait for the needle to hit "E" before getting fuel.

I've actually seen this exact thing in an E-90 series BMW occur. The owner's wife was trying to do her husband a favor by filling his tank after using his car on a short trip, but topped off the tank with E-85, because it was the cheapest fuel at the pump that day. The car didn't immediately die. She made it home just fine. Didn't take too long for the symptoms to show up, though...

roadburner · February 2013

Tell me something. Why do you deserve an ounce more respect here in this forum, where you have no real ability to prove yourself other than your words than you have shown mechanics/techs?

Look, I have all the respect in the world for competent mechanics/techs. I shouldn't have to remind you that I have praised my BMW and Mazda dealers, as well as the two indie shops I use.

As for my own "ounce of respect" why not pop into the "Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous" or the "Stories from the Sales Frontlines" and ask if there is anyone on thosee board that knows BMWs?

Oh wait, that wouldn't be a valid sample- those people are almost certainly ignorant hacks as well...

roadburner · February 2013

Well that's about a cup of water in the ocean isn't it?

Arrogant and condescending much? I know BMWs because I've owned 11 since 1983, and I only learn about cars I own-or in some cases, might own. Which eliminates @99% of domestic vehicles and at least 90% of the imports. Why learn about an anodyne transportation module when I'm never going to have one in my garage?

Care to elaborate on exactly what that is supposed to mean?

The ///M Register was an informal association of E24, E28, and E34 M car owners, vendors, and repair shops. The first cars were all "gray market" imports, but even the US spec cars weren't well served by many shops(I know of one dealer who didn't have the BMW tool needed for adjusting the valves- but still gladly charged for the service). I volunteered to field technical questions from Register members east of the Mississippi. We disbanded in the late '90s as internet boards and forums became a more efficient way to exchange information.

The problem is you don't respect that either and would rather go to someone that wouldn't charge to look for a leak. As smart as you are, your're still not smart enough to break this failure string. But you can always blame the techs, everyone can always resort to blaiming the techs.

Just exactly where did I say that the tech should automatically assume that the filter housing was the culprit? In both cases the techs didn't properly identify the source of the leak. Period. Thus, my complaint was that each diagnosis was 100% wrong. 2 for 2. But then, those techs were "professionals" so I should give them a free pass, correct?

roadburner · February 2013

And so I bought a specific scan tool and associated software to add that manufacturer to my list of supported cars. It cost me $226 a month for the next three years. Now if I use it at the most once a month, what should I be charging you?

Which is why the indie tech I use for my BMWs specializes in BMWs. And my TJ only sees a shop that specializes in D2.5 vehicles...

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Well that's about a cup of water in the ocean isn't it?

Arrogant and condescending much?

Only when someone needs it.

Just exactly where did I say that the tech should automatically assume that the filter housing was the culprit

Well you did, didn't you?

In both cases the techs didn't properly identify the source of the leak. Period. Thus, my complaint was that each diagnosis was 100% wrong. 2 for 2

In that tiny view of the much bigger picture, maybe that's true. But the reality is closer to that it was really only two out of thousands of events. That leaves the readers to have to fill in the rest of the picture, taken at what you wrote the techs must always be wrong.

But then, those techs were "professionals" so I should give them a free pass, correct?

It isn't enough information to do anything with. Few if any of the readers here have ever looked at one of these engines and have no idea how obscured the area in question is. Given the chance, without prior knowledge of the pattern failure I doubt that you would have gotten this same test right the first time either. The difference is, I wouldn't trash you for that like you have done to them here. Said another way, if you had been either one of those techs and it was the first time you saw one of these leaks you would have made the same misdiagnosis, especially if you were rushed and not allowed to take enough time to examine the situation correctly.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Well nobody said running an auto repair shop was easy.

That's for sure. The problem is nobody is really talking about just what it takes today. Well almost nobody

I would say that ultimately, the greatest challenge for the shop owner might be one of maintaining a balanced view of the customer and not being soured by the small percentage of them who are chiselers, law-suit happy, ungrateful, cheap and all the rest.

That's why we try and attract the first group and simply allow the second one to hopefully be happier elsewhere than we can make them.

Auto repair is by nature definitely not a "touchy feely" business, like dentistry or chiropractic or a hair salon. No one really expects you to be a caring sensitive person

That has a physically demanding, highly technical career......

The "front man" is pretty unflappable. He's a guard dog, a diplomat, an accountant and a service provider.

The right counter person can make a big difference.

roadburner · February 2013

Only when someone needs it.

Based on your responses, it would appear that you think 100% of the people you encounter "need it."

Well you did, didn't you?

Again, I never said that the tech should automatically assume that the filter housing was the culprit. Once again, here is what I wrote:

"I had a friend with an E83 X3 as well as another gentleman with an E46 325xi both advise me that their dealers told them that their vehicles had leaking oil pan gaskets and recommended that they be replaced. That is a somewhat complex and fiddly job on an AWD BMW because an axleshaft runs through the oil pan; both dealers wanted over $1,000 to do the work. I asked the owners where the leak was located and both said that it was coming from the left front corner of the oil pan. I told them both to take their cars to another shop, because BMW oil pan gaskets rarely fail- but that the oil filter housing gaskets can be problematic as the cars age. Both cars were taken to a good indie BMW tech, and the leaks were found to be originating at the oil filter housing gasket."

I didn't say, tell the indie shop to relace the housing gasket, I told them to get a second opinion. And my analysis was spot-on.

It isn't enough information to do anything with. Few if any of the readers here have ever looked at one of these engines and have no idea how obscured the area in question is. Given the chance, without prior knowledge of the pattern failure I doubt that you would have gotten this same test right the first time either. The difference is, I wouldn't trash you for that like you have done to them here. Said another way, if you had been either one of those techs and it was the first time you saw one of these leaks you would have made the same misdiagnosis, especially if you were rushed and not allowed to take enough time to examine the situation correctly.

You conveniently forget that while two BMW techs missed the call, two BMW techs nailed it. I'll add that when one of the owners called the indie shop he only told them that the dealer said his oil pan gasket was leaking. The shop owner replied, "Well, I'm going to inspect it closely before I start the job, because the oil pan gaskets on BMW engines seldom fail; it's much more likely to be some other component."(emphasis added) If the techs lacked the knowledge or experience to make the correct diagnosis, then there should be someone in the chain of authority who does possess that knowledge and experience- and who can prevent the wrong repair from being undertaken. Even if the techs' errors were understandable due to their inexperience, the owner would have still been out over $1,000- and he would still have an oil leak.

By the way, the M54 in my son's also exhibited a small oil leak, but my dealer diagnosed it correctly the first time.
Hmmmm...

isellhondas · February 2013

My Indy BMW shop told me that my valve cover gasket was starting to leak and that it was over 300.00 to change it (!). He also told me it might need a new valve cover and then it would be over 500.00!

How can a valve cover go bad??

I had no leaks in the garage but he told me I would probably start smelling burning oil and sure enough, I'm starting to.

Some leary people would have accused him of loosning the VC bolts.

I'm just wondering why it costs so much...WAIT... it is a BMW!

Breaks
More
Wallets

crkyolfrt · February 2013

"How can a valve cover go bad?? "

Mighta been over-torqued/torqued outta sequence at some point in its life.

But I'm not defending it..

Is it cast aluminum? If so, it would be a little more forgiving to an over-torque, but probably not by much. A thicker gasket design might have helped, but then they wouldn't get their baby back to momma for repair$ as soon..

jipster · February 2013

The right counter person can make a big difference.

I'm assuming you probably work in the back office then? Someone who is confrontational, lacking in appropriate social skills, and engages in power struggles is not someone you want on the counter. Most of the service writers at dealerships and small shops I've patronized were pretty good. Only one comes to mind with who I thought had a bit of an attitude. Sarcasm also not a trait to use with customers.

roadburner · February 2013

I haven't heard of M50 valve covers needing replacement(although I'm sure that the true experts on this board will quickly correct me if I'm mistaken :P ), but at 120,000 to 130,000 miles the gaskets usually do start to leak- almost always from the right rear corner. Replacing the gasket isn't too difficult- This is an excellent how-to.
BMW only charges $35 for the gasket set(about the same as the set for a Honda V6), so the rest of the bill is labor. I'd tackle it myself if I had the time(and an in-lb torque wrench). In the case of my son's X3 I had the latter but not the former.

roadburner · February 2013

I thought that, but I wasn't going to say it...

jipster · February 2013

TWe have the chain stores that sell tires and do alignments, and quick lubes that are putting who knows what in the car

Who is making baseless assumptions now? If you know something we don't about the quickielubes, let's hear it. They using maple syrup instead of oil? :sick:

I think the Valvolines Instant Oil does a pretty good job. At least you can sit in the comfort of your car and see that the job is done properly, and with a quality oil.

Plus, the competition keeps dealerships from overcharging on oil changes.

obyone · February 2013

I think the Valvolines Instant Oil does a pretty good job. At least you can sit in the comfort of your car and see that the job is done properly, and with a quality oil.

You're kidding right?

Plus, the competition keeps dealerships from overcharging on oil changes.

I noticed dealers today advertise two prices. The elcheapo with who knows what kind of oil and another price for "synthetics". The dealer who not so recently tried to stick you with ADM is the dealer you want to service your vehicle? What differentiates sales from service? Same upper management.

jipster · February 2013

You're kidding right?

Not really. You at least know which items are being checked, unlike at dealership. You are in and out quicker. Comfort is debatable, as no a/c or heat. And Valvolines a quality oil. I only use if in a pinch. Usually dealership is running oil change specials about 10 bucks cheaper.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Based on your responses, it would appear that you think 100% of the people you encounter "need it."

You are the only one that seems to never be wrong, at least from your point of view.

You conveniently forget that while two BMW techs missed the call, two BMW techs nailed it.

You have two completely different scenarios, one is check for an oil leak. The other is they have an oil leak and were told that it is a pan gasket and someone else said that it might be the oil filter adapter leaking. Go find out which one it is.

Under those circumstances the techs would be allowed to take more time, the kind of time that should have been taken the first time but everyone loves to assume that the job is "so easy".

What you haven't figured out is that you and many others appear to feed off of the failures, but don't really do anything to solve them. I've watched you say things like "for now on they should call me first" and now you have to write things like "I'm sure that the true experts on this board will quickly correct me if I'm mistaken".

You'll keep taking slaps at me now because I won't let you stand on the pedestal that you put yourself onto, after all I'm just a mechanic, what could I possibly know compared to you? It must really disturb you to think that someone who fixes cars for a living actually thinks they know anything without you telling them first.

If the techs lacked the knowledge or experience to make the correct diagnosis, then there should be someone in the chain of authority who does possess that knowledge and experience

There should be, but there isn't. Since you don't actually do the work you don't know what's been happening. For one there is simply too much for any one person to know and everyone wants everything all so fast and cheap the techs are running on the limits of their abilities all of the time, and it doesn't matter who's marquise is out on the street.

- and who can prevent the wrong repair from being undertaken.

Learning often means you don't know that it was wrong until you still have a problem after the first attempt.

Even if the techs' errors were understandable due to their inexperience, the owner would have still been out over $1,000- and he would still have an oil leak.

That's your assumption, and in some cases it could be partially accurate, emphasis on the word "partially". In many cases, the oil is found to still be leaking and the second repair is done no charge. In others, the second repair is done and it is charged for, and the oil pan repair not charged for since by that time everyone would "assume" that it wasn't actually leaking in the first place. The trick now comes down to what does the tech get paid? The answer lies closely to what was billed to the customer. Most would assume that the tech gets paid no matter what, but they don't. If the shop charges for everything which wouldn't be ethical the tech likely gets paid for all of the work. But should the shop choose to not charge for any portion, the tech also does not get paid and this is where it gets to be a problem.

Everything that you are writing focuses on the pan never leaking, but you condition it with it being rare. In this job, you cannot assume anything, because the moment you do fate will jump right in and make you regret it. So picture a vehicle coming in the door that actually did have both the pan and the oil filter adapter leaking. The tech fixes the easy leak to see, the pan only to find that there is still a leak and now has to fix that. The assumption get's made that the pan wasn't leaking and so to "be fair" to the customer they don't charge for the oil pan repair and only charge for the filter adapter leak. That means the tech actually gets taken advantage of and also didn't get paid to learn about the oil adapter condition.

We now have the stage set, with enough mistakes eventually the tech loses his job, or else simply quits to do something else and the experience that was built in him is lost. That means the whole routine has to play out all over again with another new person and the failure string stays intact.

I'm all about breaking that string and changing the way shops actually run, and that isn't going to happen until everyone see's the issues that cause the problems completely.

You conveniently forget that while two BMW techs missed the call, two BMW techs nailed it.

You are "assuming".

I'll add that when one of the owners called the indie shop he only told them that the dealer said his oil pan gasket was leaking. The shop owner replied, "Well, I'm going to inspect it closely before I start the job, because the oil pan gaskets on BMW engines seldom fail; it's much more likely to be some other component

You add that now, I'm wondering if you would have said it at all without my questioning your story.

By the way, the M54 in my son's also exhibited a small oil leak, but my dealer diagnosed it correctly the first time.
Hmmmm...

Hmmm indeed. Why aren't you doing all of the work yourself? Most likely if you tried to you'd quickly find out that you don't know as much as you think you do. But hey as long as you don't actually do the work then no one will ever suspect that you actually can't do the work, right?
But I'm just a mechanic and not even a BMW specialist, what could I possibly know.....

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Who is making baseless assumptions now?

I'd reccomend doing some research as to oil specifications, O.E. requirements, and what the ACEA ratings are all about to start. Once you are more familliar with that I'll give you the next areas to study. Then you can decide who is making any assumptions yourself, prior to right now that is.

If you know something we don't about the quickielubes, let's hear it.

I can't buy the correct products for my customers cars for the prices some advertise for the whole service. Neither can they. So are they intentionally taking a loss or what?

I think the Valvolines Instant Oil does a pretty good job. At least you can sit in the comfort of your car and see that the job is done properly, and with a quality oil.

Plus, the competition keeps dealerships from overcharging on oil changes

Did you ever hear of Lubes 'n' Greases Magazine?

http://www.lngpublishing.com/lngmagazine/index.cfm

I'd reccomend back reading for a little bit more than the last two years. (Oct 2010 iirc)

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I'm assuming you probably work in the back office then? Someone who is confrontational, lacking in appropriate social skills, and engages in power struggles is not someone you want on the counter

We all have our crosses to bear. No I don't have a counter person, I do everything myself. The social skills issue is one that goes hand in hand with the fact that I cannot write with a pen or pencil at a reasonable level. You can speculate on that all you want. I've never been one to let my handicap define my limits.

jipster · February 2013

Thanks for the link to Lubes and Greases Magazine. Christmas has come early.

Not all Quickie Lubes are built the same. You are assuming the quality of their oils suspect. WELL, BASED ON WHAT? Dealerships and shops use Valvoline and Pennzoil, same as a lot of quickie lubes. Dealerships don't use highly trained mechanics to do a simple oil change. They use the same type of guys the quickie places do. So?

Menieke might be a place to stay away from an oil change. Recycled synthetic blend. Blah.

jipster · February 2013

All I'm trying to say is many here started out trying to be friendly and respectable towards you. Myself included. But you seem not to want a friendly exchange. Maybe I'm wrong. That's how it appears to me.

I enjoy reading your posts and you certainly know cars. But ease up a little bit will ya.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

All I'm trying to say is many here started out trying to be friendly and respectable towards you. Myself included. But you seem not to want a friendly exchange. Maybe I'm wrong. That's how it appears to me.

I've never been one to have a lot of tact, I strive to work on that.

I'm all for friendly exchanges, heck thats what I would love to have. But I'm not going to sit on my hands all of the time when the trash gets started. I've lived through the results of way some people talk down to techs, they are so used to doing it, they don't even think there is anything wrong with it.

The attitude in RB's posts remind me of certain people through the years. He may praise his favorite BMW guy, but rest assured someone else is treating that guy like RB wants to do to all of the rest. His exchanges remind me of a Buick Service rep that we had.

Back in March of 85, I had replaced the diode bridge in an alternator. GM was clamping down on the warranty expenses and he came in and tested the part with an ohm meter and declared that it was not bad and he was voiding the claim. That meant that the dealership was losing the part as well as the labor and that meant I was going to be back-flagged and not paid for the repair.

I told him, let me put that part in your car and we will see if its bad or not. Nobody else would stand up to the guy. He agreed and watched me pull his alternator off and I handed him his diode bridge. He gave me the one I had taken out of the other alternator and he saw it go back together.

I told him keep that bridge because he was going to need it.

When it was assembled it was charging of course and he was so sure of himself. The diode that was failing broke down when it was hot, but he didn't understand that. By the time he got to the next dealership the alternator light was on and it was only charging at 13v. When they checked it, it was draining the battery exactly as was described on the previous R.O.

I didn't get paid to do that exercise, I only succeeded in preventing him from bouncing that one warranty claim.

What you see is the fact that I don't cave in and give people like that Buick rep a free ride, RB included. I've seen him criticize too many times and the little bit of praise that he may put out there doesn't balance the ledger.

BTW. I looked at his link to R&R that valve cover. First while some people do need a detailed step by step, there are many who don't. Beyond the torque specs, that repair is something that should be intuitive for a person who is a prospect to be a technician today. Plus it is adviseable to not only replace the plugs, but the plug boots as well. Oh, BTW, did you read the comments below that article?

My average price for that entire job is under $400 including the plugs and the boots, and the oil change. The oil when it leaks from the cover hits the exhaust manifold and creates quite an odor and results in the owner knowing that something is wrong. That repair is as simple as any that come through the door.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Not all Quickie Lubes are built the same. You are assuming the quality of their oils suspect. WELL, BASED ON WHAT? Dealerships and shops use Valvoline and Pennzoil, same as a lot of quickie lubes. Dealerships don't use highly trained mechanics to do a simple oil change. They use the same type of guys the quickie places do. So?

It's been a nightmare getting the consumers to learn the facts.....

thecardoc3 · February 2013

It's been a nightmare getting the consumers to learn the facts.....

We even have to overcome atricles like this one, which is part of a series BTW.

Articles like this one all follow the same guidelines

1. Bash the shops/techs to raise credibility for the author
2. Tell the story the way that someone wants it told
3. Bash the shops/techs again to reinforce authors credibility

Learn the facts, and then revisit all of those "stories". Then ask why!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

Soooo....what's your problem with any of these statements in the article?

1."Experts agree that the oil in today's cars should be changed at the designated intervals in the owner's manual or when the car's oil life monitor light appears."

2." Nearly all cars should be serviced under the "severe" maintenance schedule. This oft-cited rule is a myth the quick oil-change industry (including Jiffy Lube) uses to bolster more-frequent-than-necessary oil changes, experts tell Edmunds.com."

Doc, I don't see "techs being bashed" at all---or do you call the guy at Jiffy Lube twisting oil pan bolts a "tech", or the service writer at same?

Is this the person in The Brotherhood you really want to protect?

srs_49 · February 2013

thecardoc3-

Most of us here respect your experience and level of expertise.

All many of us ask of an automotive technician/shop is that they be honest and upfront with us when we bring our vehicles in for service. If we bring it in with the P0442 CEL code (Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak)), for gosh sake tell us that for $20 you can replace the gas cap and that has a 90% (or whatever percentage youre comfortable with) probability of fixing the problem, or for $150 you will run a more exhaustive set of tests and pinpoint the problem with more certainty (but not 100%), then let the consumer make the call.

If we bring a vehicle in with the MAF sensor code stored, again be honest and upfront with us and tell what the options and outcomes are (ie  remove and clean the sensor for $100, or replace the whole MAF for $300). Again the cost numbers may not be accurate, but you get the drift.

But, if we bring a vehicle in with a P0442 code showing (having read it ourselves), and you come back and say the MAF is also bad should be replaced (not cleaned), then you have some explaining to do.

Is that too much to ask?

srs_49 · February 2013

I agree with Shifty.

Would like to hear what exactly you think is "wrong" with the major points the article made.

Also, I did not pick up on a lot of shop or tech bashing, other than to question the recommendation of those shops to change oil every 3,000 miles.

roadburner · February 2013

You are the only one that seems to never be wrong, at least from your point of view.

I've never said that either.

You have two completely different scenarios, one is check for an oil leak. The other is they have an oil leak and were told that it is a pan gasket and someone else said that it might be the oil filter adapter leaking. Go find out which one it is.

So one scenario excuses a bad diagnosis? OK...

There should be, but there isn't.

It still boils down to the fact that two shops nailed the call and two missed it.

But should the shop choose to not charge for any portion, the tech also does not get paid and this is where it gets to be a problem.

Well, that should be an incentive for the tech to make a proper diagnosis, No?

Everything that you are writing focuses on the pan never leaking, but you condition it with it being rare. In this job, you cannot assume anything, because the moment you do fate will jump right in and make you regret it.

The techs made a wrong call- full stop. I guess I'm just spoiled; I use decent dealers and indie shops, ones that don't use my car and wallet to provide tuition for BMW(or Mazda) Repair 101.

You are "assuming".

Not at all. Two dealers diagnosed the problem incorrectly. Two other shops correctly identified the problem. Those are the facts.

You add that now, I'm wondering if you would have said it at all without my questioning your story.

You got me; in addition to committing the unpardonable sin of criticizing shoddy and incompetent work, I also fabricate stories.

Why aren't you doing all of the work yourself?

I do as much as I can, but my job keeps me on the road 10-20 days/1,000-2,000 miles per month. And maintaining every car in the garage in first class condition takes more time than I usually want-or have-to spend.

Most likely if you tried to you'd quickly find out that you don't know as much as you think you do.

Regardless of your evaluation of my ability, at least I know enough to take my car to competent dealers and indie shops when I don't have the time or inclination to tackle a job myself....

busiris · February 2013

I guess you can add me to the list as well....

roadburner · February 2013

The attitude in RB's posts remind me of certain people through the years. He may praise his favorite BMW guy, but rest assured someone else is treating that guy like RB wants to do to all of the rest.

"BMW guy"? Wrong again. Let's review; I use:
1. The service department of a BMW dealer
2. An independent BMW tech
3. The service department of a Mazda dealer(100 miles away, because the local dealers are not up to snuff)
4. A small indie shop that primarily services my Wrangler TJ- and occasionally my 1975 '02 and Mazda
5. A local tire chain(although I still do the summer tire&wheel/winter tire&wheel swaps myself)
All provide first-rate service, and I know of at least two other local BMW techs that are exemplary. I won't comment on any domestic dealers, primarily because I never use them and probably never will. Although I know a real howler of a misdiagnosis a Ford dealer made on a co-workers Escape(all though in a honesty I think the dealer was guilty of fraud rather than incompetence).

Once again, just exactly where did I trash "all the rest"? I did discuss several specific instances of shoddy/incompetent work, but I never implied that the majority of shops are bad- you inferred that.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

But, if we bring a vehicle in with a P0442 code showing (having read it ourselves), and you come back and say the MAF is also bad should be replaced (not cleaned), then you have some explaining to do.

Is that too much to ask?

I'll play but you need to answer all of the questions too.

Of course a complete explanation is in order, nobody should expect anything less.

So now let's go back to your first paragraph.

All many of us ask of an automotive technician/shop is that they be honest and upfront with us when we bring our vehicles in for service. If we bring it in with the P0442 CEL code (Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak)), for gosh sake tell us that for $20 you can replace the gas cap and that has a 90% (or whatever percentage youre comfortable with)

Remember when you were in high school and had to sit in some of those classes that you were sure weren't making you learn anything that you would ever need in the future? Well....

In Geometry we had to study Theorems and do Proofs. Lots of kids hated them, and there was usually a select few who actually enjoyed them.

What did it mean for the theory if a false statement had to be used to prove it? Your argument relies on the statement that the gas cap and only the gas cap is a rational cause for the P0442 If it's true 100% of the time then you have a valid theory. So, is the gas cap what is wrong 100% of the time or is it not?

So then we get to the honesty part of your paragraph. With the fact that it takes a false statement to prove your theory then the only way to be honest is to test the car correctly and let the car show you were the fault is.

Honesty about guessing doesn't count aka" I have no proof that your cap is bad but if you want to guess here is one for $20 (or whatever). Someone could resort to doing it that way simply because they lack the tools, training and/or the self discipline to do it any other way and none of those should be seen as desirable attributes, should they?

probability of fixing the problem, or for $150 you will run a more exhaustive set of tests and pinpoint the problem with more certainty (but not 100%), then let the consumer make the call

Now we get to the second half, as if that was even necessary. You pulled a price out of thin air and made sure to suggest doubt about the end results.

Do you know how to play "3 Card Monte"? The dealer never loses (unless he wants to)

If we bring a vehicle in with the MAF sensor code stored, again be honest and upfront with us and tell what the options and outcomes are (ie  remove and clean the sensor for $100, or replace the whole MAF for $300). Again the cost numbers may not be accurate, but you get the drift.

Sure lets use a 2004 Mercedes Benz ML320 The codes are P2004, P2006, P2017, P2086, P2016 AND/OR p2085 (Don't worry I could do this with several hundred models spread across numerous manufacturers, I just decided to pick an easy one) Tell me exactly how I should proceed with that customers car as per the manufacturer.

But, if we bring a vehicle in with a P0442 code showing (having read it ourselves), and you come back and say the MAF is also bad should be replaced (not cleaned), then you have some explaining to do.

Now we are all the way back to this paragraph. I could write for hours explaining code set criteria and blocking conditions (codes or tests) . The problem at the moment is you chose to pick two codes (test failures) that potentially are very unlikely to have cross checking conditions to try and make your point. Someone who doesn't know how the systems work would look at that as a valid argument on your part. In the real world sometimes customers vehicles can have a condition with their vehicle where two other codes are highly interactive and one problem prevents the PCM from detecting the other. An example that includes a mechanical fault is a restricted exhaust on one side of a V-engine which results in a bank to bank fuel trim variation. The list of potential codes that could set include (but are not limited to) rich exhaust on one side, lean on the other, a MAF performance code, misfire codes, upstream O2 sensor voltage or performance codes etc. The trouble with this scenario is which ever code sets first can block any of the others from setting. Meanwhile none of them actually point at the cause (the partially restricted exhaust).

As a tech approaching this problem I have to identify and solve the mechanical fault and then set about proving if any codes retrieved are false, or not. Then I still have to be sure if the false code blocked another test from running. In this event having to come back and explain why other work is required should be expected when the vehicles condition dictates it.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Also, I did not pick up on a lot of shop or tech bashing

From the article:

So we issued a call for oil myths, legends and lies, and gathered up a list of the top puzzlers.

The 3,000-mile oil change is the credo of the quick-oil change industry and dealership service departments, designed to regularly get you into the service bay.

When manufacturers say "severe," they mean situations in which vehicles pull heavy trailers, or cars race on closed tracks

Really consumers race their cars on closed tracks?

The rest of the fun requires you to follow the links to the related stories and videos.

roadburner · February 2013

Really consumers race their cars on closed tracks?

Now that you mention it...

And UOAs of the Mobil 1 0W-40 I run indicates that a 8,000 mile OCI is perfectly fine. To quote Blackstone Labs:

Your BMW's engine appears to be doing quite well at 125,244 miles. Our universal averages show normal wear for the M42 4-cylinder after 3,800 miles of oil use. You ran this 0W/40 oil well past that mark(8,200 miles), so it was nice to see all metals reading close to or below average. They were also in balance to one another and that shows normally wearing parts and no mechanical problems brewing. The oil's TBN was 5.7, meaning there was lots of active additive left.

That said, I would probably recommend an OCI of 3,000 to 4,000 miles if someone wanted to run conventional oil in a turbocharged engine(those people should probably be sentenced to driving a Chevrolet Aveo, a Daewoo Nubria or a Ford Tempo for all eternity, but I digress).

busiris · February 2013

Like many others have said here, I have great respect for your knowledge of automotive operations and repairs.

Now, having stated that... I have to say, I think this is one of those times you're grasping at straws to make your point.

You're trying to take a literal interpretation of a sentence, when its seems clear to me that its the intent of the idea that's being laid out.

We can debate from here to eternity about how "exacting" things should be worded, but really... If someone reads a single short article and then lets that extremely limited amount of information literally dictate their behavior, its doubtful (at least, IMO) that they would have the ability to comprehend the "literal details" of an exact explanation.

You know...When my doctor tells me I need to "eat right", he doesn't have to explain to me that "eating right" doesn't include daily Big Macs, large pizzas and fried chickens, but it does include fish, fresh fruits and vegetables. I'm fairly capable of reading between the lines.

imidazol97 · February 2013

I just heard an ad for a Lousiville foreign car place that offeres drive through analysis. Free. They'll tell you what the problem is AND how much it will cost to repair it. NO CHARGE. I think they said some location on Shelbyville Rd., but I didn't get the name.

busiris · February 2013

Will they also read your palm and tell your future?

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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