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Comments
If anyone knows what their training and investment in equipment is worth they should, and they are telling you that it's worth nothing, sooo.....
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Wow; this conversation really picked up! Since I don't have the time to catch up on it, I'll skip reading forward to find out if someone has already elaborated on this particular quote.
"It isn't about the money at all." Absolutely not - it's about trust. Trusting that your car is going to work when you attempt to start it, and work the whole time you want to use it. Trust that when someone says they fixed it, they did. The standard to measure up to this expectation is different for everyone, but I think there's a common denominator.... If the thing that stops working is the last thing that was fixed, the customer isn't going to be real happy about it (whether it's the tech's fault or not!).
The only time I bought a car unplanned, while its predecessor still operated, was when my wife lost confidence in the "old car" and simply refused to drive it any longer. Peace of mind cannot be under-estimated nor under-valued.
Well, I was one of those kids that enjoyed 'em :P .
Your argument relies on the statement that the gas cap and only the gas cap is a rational cause for the P0442 If it's true 100% of the time then you have a valid theory. So, is the gas cap what is wrong 100% of the time or is it not?
No, that's not what I said, which was you can replace the gas cap and that has a 90% (or whatever percentage you’re comfortable with) [chance of fixing the problem]
Like I said in an earlier thread, you really have no idea how many P0442 codes are fixed by a simple gas cap replacement, or even by a simple remove and replace.!
Coincidentally, around the time we were discussing the P0442 code in this thread, two of my vehicles (a 2009 Infiniti G37 and 2007 Dodge Grand Caravan) both threw that exact same code within a week or so of each other. Both times, I just filled the vehicles up (which meant removing and reinstalling the filler cap), and after several driving cycles, the CEL turned off (or maybe I cleared the code and the CEL stayed off). So in this sampling of 2 P0442 codes, the gas cap fix (or filling the tank) worked both times.
probability of fixing the problem, or for $150 you will run a more exhaustive set of tests and pinpoint the problem with more certainty (but not 100%), then let the consumer make the call
Now we get to the second half, as if that was even necessary. You pulled a price out of thin air and made sure to suggest doubt about the end results.
Yep, because I don't believe you (or anyone else, for that matter) is that good - 100% correct, dead nuts on, all the time. I don't care how much training, or how much experience, or how much equipment and diagnostics software you have. Don't take it as an insult - you're just human!
Do you know how to play "3 Card Monte"? The dealer never loses (unless he wants to)
Nope, and in any case would never play (gamble) on anything where I knew the odds were stacked against me from the start. At least, certainly not on a card or other table game (slots included).
The problem at the moment is you chose to pick two codes (test failures) that potentially are very unlikely to have cross checking conditions to try and make your point
Well sure, to make my point. Just like a lot of the examples you've used
The word "lies" in the first sentence isn't there by accident.
But before you dissmiss everything, follow this ride to it's next stop.
http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/do-i-have-to-use-the-manufacturers-oil.html
Like I said in an earlier thread, you really have no idea how many P0442 codes are fixed by a simple gas cap replacement, or even by a simple remove and replace.!
Do you really know how many are not?
So "IF" my 2010 Escape sets a P0442, what are the chances that it is a loose gas cap?
Fords have had some TSBs for various EVAP codes over the years, but I don't have easy access to anything but the summaries, so I didn't look for a 2010 correlation.
Who do YOU think the target market is for the article you linked?
The disclaimer at the end pretty much summed it up... When in doubt, follow the instruction found in the owner's manual.
Setting aside the claims and counter-claims of manufacturer-specified oil superiority, here's all you have to remember: As long as you follow the oil specifications shown in your owner's manual, you have nothing to worry about.
If everyone wanted to be into servicing cars at the depth you are, you'd be out of a job. Once again, many of us are perfectly capable of reading between the lines to glean the point being made.
Do you really know how many are not?
Nope, I don't. But the again, neither do you.
So "IF" my 2010 Escape sets a P0442, what are the chances that it is a loose gas cap?
Don't know. It could be near zero. But that still wouldn't stop me from telling someone to fill the tank up, reseat the cap, and drive it around a bit.
Clue: It doesn't have a cap.....
I know nothing about any Ford Escape, but I do remember reading your suggestion in owner's manuals I have previously read regarding the CEL being illuminated. Whether or not its in that model's manual, I can't say.
Seems like a reasonable first step to me. The CEL (Service Engine Soon) light came on in my daughter's Nissan Versa a few days after she bought it, and in her case, it appears to have been a loose/improperly tightened gas cap. I re-seated the cap, and after a few miles, the light went out, and that was 4 years and 75,000 miles ago. The car's owner's manual discusses it on page 2-12.
I'm guessing that was the cause, but I won't testify or swear to it.
Pulling codes isn't diagnostics and shouldn't be represented as such. The Free Diagnostics claims are at best a bait and switch. Pull the code for free and then guess a price and/or sell the real diagnostic fee. Or worse they may actually be expecting their techs to spend a legitimate amount of time that they ultimately won't be compensated for in one way or another. The trouble with that is eventually you lose the technician.
Sounds to me more like a way to sell non-needed air filters, etc., probably at inflated prices.
Well, it may not have a separate cap, but it does look like it has something (neoprene rubber???) on the inside of the filler neck to seal off the intake orifice. So in that sense, it has a built in cap. Is that supposed to be better than a separate gas cap? Less chance for the consumer to get it wrong?
So, instead of "reseat the gas cap", how 'bout "jiggle the seal"? Would have to see one in person.
BTW, I did see where they sell after-market regular-style gas caps for Escapes.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=28320
Sounds needlessly complicated, particularly the part about sensing the size of the tube being inserted, IMM. A solution in search of a problem, so to speak.
What ever happened to KISS?
http://www.kissonline.com/ :P
Was there any part of the article were a suggestion was made that the manual doesn't have to be followed exactly? You can read the lines, or inbetween them, just look to see if any doubts are suggested.
Advertising suggests that a given product meets a vehicles specs.
Customer, shop, or tech believing the advertising uses the product and if no problems occur, nobody cares. But when a problem eventually does occur, the manufacturer of the product simply points out that they had that disclaimer in their literature. Customer, shop, or tech ends up holding the bag. (Often-times it's the manufacturer of the vehicle anyway)
Busiris states it as "When in doubt, follow the instruction found in the owner's manual. " Meanwhile in the article you find this;
The language in some owner's manuals suggests that using an oil other than the one specified by the manufacturer will void the car's warranty. This is not the case, says Thom Smith, Valvoline's vice president of branded lubricant technology
These three paragrapghs are easy to read and not catch all of the details.
"If a customer uses a non-licensed engine oil that is simply ILSAC GF-5 quality, they will not enjoy the benefits of using a Dexos-licensed product," Read says. Those benefits could include better low-temperature performance, cleaner pistons and better aeration performance, he says. "This could be especially important as the engine oil ages."
Read's case for Dexos sounds compelling, but Valvoline's Smith isn't buying it.
"Our SynPower 5W-20, 5W-30 and DuraBlend 5W-30 went through all the Dexos testing and passed all the requirements," Smith says. "But we felt that carrying the Dexos name was not providing the consumer with any value."
At the same time this article was being written, Thom Smith of Valvoline has a quote in Lubes'n'Greases. Research his quote there regarding dexos and see if it is consistent with what was written here.
Lets repeat one of those paragraphs.
Our SynPower 5W-20, 5W-30 and DuraBlend 5W-30 went through all the Dexos testing and passed all the requirements,"
What is GM's pumping requirements specification for any approved product at -35f?
What is Valvolines pumping specification at -35f for the products listed?
From earlier in the article;
GM distanced itself from the API guidelines with the introduction of Dexos. According to GM, the Dexos oil specification will decrease harmful piston deposits by up to 28 percent and improve fuel efficiency by up to 0.3 percent compared to the older ILSAC GF-4 specifications.
Then later on there was this.
Smith says. "But we felt that carrying the Dexos name was not providing the consumer with any value."
"Dexos" isn't a name. dexos1 is a specification.
Now moving back to the top of the article;
The API and ILSAC standards are the baseline, says Timothy Miranda, senior engineer for race oil and field testing for Castrol Lubricants, which manufactures oil for automakers such as Audi, BMW and Volkswagen. Automakers are free to improve upon the standards as long as they meet the minimum requirements.
The funny thing however is to meet certain European specs some oils in fact do not meet ILSAC, which is OK provided a consumer doesn't choose a product for their car that does.
Now, don't just take what I have written here and say, yea or nay. Research the data and find out for yourself. If you have trouble I can provide some links for references. Keep in mind Valvoline has a lot of great products that meet the specs for many vehicles. This is about what a given customer needs to know in order to choose a product correctly.
Who worries these days about "28% fewer piston deposits" or oil flow at -35F?
I mean, when you start your car in the morning, are you really all thinking "oh, man, I hope the oil I put in last week will prevent piston deposits over the next 400,000 miles". :P
You open the owner's manual, you read what it says, you put that into your engine, and you're done for the next 10 years---that's the experience of the vast number of drivers of modern automobiles.
Not sure what kind of response you were looking for. This is just an article on a consumer (automotive) web site. It's not meant to be a product specification, or a contract, or a statement of work (SOW).
The language in some owner's manuals suggests that using an oil other than the one specified by the manufacturer will void the car's warranty. This is not the case, says Thom Smith, Valvoline's vice president of branded lubricant technology
I fully agree with that. Owner's manuals are full of terms like "recommend", which in my mind means it's not required. If it's required, than the owners manual ought to say so, with wording such as "the owner SHALL use 5W-20 oil that is labeled to meet the Dexos specification", or "it is required that the owner...".
Totally agree, and exactly what does it say?
From Search Auto Parts.com....
The 2011 Buick Lucerne owner's manual contains this warning: "Use only engine oil that is approved to the dexos specification or an equivalent engine oil of the appropriate viscosity grade. Engine oils approved to the dexos specification will show the dexos symbol on the container. Failure to use the recommended engine oil or equivalent can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty."
Greg Martin, director, policy and Washington communications, General Motors Corp., says if a GM car owner does not use motor oil that meets the dexos spec, GM would be free not to cover repairs for those issues under the new vehicle or parts limited warranties. "This is true across the industry," he adds. "This has been true for years. This is legal under Magnuson-Moss."
The trick now is exactly what is or is not "equivelant"?
Who worries these days about "28% fewer piston deposits" or oil flow at -35F?
Oh just GM, Ford, Honda and Chrysler to name a few......
The cold flow properties of lubricants ranks #1 on my list when looking for compatible fluids for my vehicles.
The trick now is exactly what is or is not "equivelant"?
Seems to me GM left the door open to using a non-Dexos branded oil.
Let's keep this focused on the specs. It is a very important specification for GM, as well as Ford and Chrysler approved products. GM and Ford have reduced bearing clearances and can prove that at cold temperatures during start-up the shearing stress on the oil can fracture the oil molecules, rendering the oil unable to perform all of its other requirements. By reducing the pumping requirements the oil is protected from this stress.
So again, its a very important specification. Do the Valvoline products listed meet that requirement of the specification or not?
Some want you to think that way, but that isn't what it said.
Universal averages for BMW's M54 I-6 are based on about 6,400 miles on the oil. You ran this oil 8,352 miles, and wear read at or below average across the board. That's the best indication we know of that an engine is in good mechanical shape internally.
Note that every oil I've run in that truck shows a TBN of 1.0 or less by 10,000 miles. So much for following the SI system's @16,000 mile OCI...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Fractured oil molecules at sub-zero temperatures? Now who on earth has to deal with that except NASA maybe? Does anyone really think that 99.99999% of the world has to even worry about this?
And this talk about "You open the owner's manual, you read what it says, you put that into your engine, and you're done for the next 10 years".
I'll have you know I change my oil once a year whether it needs it or not. Usually. :P
Next, GM will be putting nanobits in the Dexos stuff so they can sample the oil and scan for the identifiers.
These are the kinds of statements that I was expecting to get back.
Denial, Anger, Negotiation, and finally resigned acceptance as the instructor put it are the emotions that must be dealt with if people are to learn how things have changed.
Are you in favor of properly educated consumers, or against them being properly educated? If you don't care about them being properly educated about this subject, then go ahead and continue to argue with me. If making sure they know how to make informed choices is important then you can (and should) spend some time and investigate and find out for yourself, as well as listen to exactly what I am saying.
You cannot trust what you have always believed in the past anymore.
Fractured oil molecules at sub-zero temperatures?
Yep, they can prove it and that proof would reveal that a product was used that wasn't equivelant to the specification. The question is "will they"?
The bigger issue that people use to cloud this has to do with warranties. You can mistreat the vehicle and have the engine get through the warranty period without a failure. But that doesn't mean that problems haven't been occurring. This is about protecting the vehicle for its full lifespan, not just the warranty period.
You are of course following the manufacturers specs, exactly as you should. If you get a chance, look at the ILSAC part of the specs for those products. To meet BMW's spec, those products do not meet ILSAC. ILSAC is too thin for BMW.
Those are different time periods?
Kidding aside, what it a "full lifespan"? From stuff I've read, Ford designs its parts to last ten years (I don't recall a mileage number, but since most people drive 12 to 15k a year, that would correlate to 150,000 miles).
"Measure it with a micrometer, then split it with an axe.".
That isn't to say I don't follow (nor do I suggest others not follow) the manufacturer-approved lubricants for a vehicle, because that's exactly what I do... For me, I can (and do) purchase oil from my BMW dealer cheaper than I can at Walmart... Seems like a no-brainier to me. I do vary, however, in trusting ANY motor oil to last 15K miles. Fortunately, I don't put nearly that amount of miles on any of my vehicles in a year, and I change my oil annually, at a minimum. For me, problem solved.
Cardoc, IMO, and I mean this with the utmost respect, if people were required to get into the specifics at the level you're headed towards, there simply wouldn't be an automotive market in existence.
The existence of quickie oil change lube joints pretty much proves that there (at least, up until now) is a fair amount of tolerance in what the average car's lifetime is being viewed as acceptable by the driving, car-owning public.
That isn't to say that owners couldn't get more miles out of their engine by using more precise lubricants, but it does say that, for the vast majority, what they're doing is enough to satisfy their expectations.
Now, the future may be an entirely different bag, but I suspect we'll start seeing tons of lawsuits against quickie-lubes if it turns out to be a significant issue.
The level of precision one expects is all relative... A mathematician calculating the trajectory of a comet may insist on taking his calculations to 100 points right of the decimal point, but for the rest of us, we'll just take him at his word when he says the comet isn't going to take out the planet... We don't need to do the same calculation.
I don't mean to sound "flip" about this at all, it's just that 99.9999% of the population accepts "good enough" as OK. I can understand your frustration, but lets face it... If the car gets someone where they want to go, when they want to go there, its good enough for just about everybody.
Yes a lot of parts are designed to make it ten years at the minimum. That means they should last well beyond that "on average".
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/story/2012-01-17/cars-trucks-age-polk- - /52613102/1
What isn't addressed in the article is how many owners have the average car for 11 years.
According to the article below, the average ownership of new cars is in the 6 or 7 year time frame, or even less...
http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2012/11/07/nine-cars-americans-keep-longes- t/
Frankly, I doubt few car owners really car much about what lifespan is left in a vehicle once they trade it...
I hope you won't mind me pointing out another contradiction.
For me, I can (and do) purchase oil from my BMW dealer cheaper than I can at Walmart... Seems like a no-brainier to me. I do vary, however, in trusting ANY motor oil to last 15K miles.
There are two distinct camps here. Those who follow the manufacturers specs, and those who are doing their best to try and argue against doing that. As sure as they are trying to assert that people don't have to follow GM's spec, aren't they also saying that you shouldn't have to follow BMW's? After all it makes no sense for it to work one way, but not the other, does it?
Cardoc, IMO, and I mean this with the utmost respect, if people were required to get into the specifics at the level you're headed towards, there simply wouldn't be an automotive market in existence
I'm not sure I follow you here. The cars and their specs are indeed getting to be this complicated. That's why people need to listen to those who are getting the training that they need in order to do the job correctly. I'd rather make the effort for the consumers to understand the specs and the details involved then to have them have to deal with the consequences some day in the future. Keep in mind, we aren't talking only about the engines, that's a part of it. We are also talking about the emissions components. Expensive emissions components.
The existence of quickie oil change lube joints pretty much proves that there (at least, up until now) is a fair amount of tolerance in what the average car's lifetime is being viewed as acceptable by the driving, car-owning public.
So I guess GM's aren't having timing chain concerns, nor oil consumption concerns, after all there is no proof that anything bad is happening, right?. These concerns BTW are not limited to GM, but there are a number of forum complaints that can be referenced right here on Edmunds. These problems are real, and they are primarily the result of the use of products that failed to meet the GM specs, and/or service interval issues.
Now, the future may be an entirely different bag, but I suspect we'll start seeing tons of lawsuits against quickie-lubes if it turns out to be a significant issue.
Not until the consumers realize what the possibilities are. For now they are only hearing denial about the need to meet the manufacturers specs. Don't you think it would be better for everyone to get up to speed now, instead of having the nightmare happen first?
Well, I bought the 318ti new in November 1995, the 1999 Wrangler in May 2002, and the 2004 X3 in November 2005. I don't ever plan to sell the ti or the Jeep, and I plan to keep the X3 until my son graduates from college in 2017. I'd hang on to my 1975 2002, but I have too many cars in the driveway right now so it will have to go...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
What happens to the trade in value if a group of cars are known to suffer expensive repairs?
How is the second owners opinion affected if he/she finds out a car that they are interested in buying wasn't serviced correctly?
Actually, I'm in camp C. For my BMW, I absolutely follow the manufacturer's specs on the type of fluids; however, I change them more often than they tell me to. For all of my other vehicles, I use synthetic when it isn't specified. I do use the specified weight, though.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
How is the second owners opinion affected if he/she finds out a car that they are interested in buying wasn't serviced correctly?
My point, exactly. "If" doesn't mean "will occur". It's an issue once it happens, not "if" it happens.
Wasn't serviced correctly?
Well, there have been used are bought and sold for 100 years now, and that was a possibility in the first sales transaction of a used car. It's nothing new...
For me, I can (and do) purchase oil from my BMW dealer cheaper than I can at Walmart... Seems like a no-brainier to me. I do vary, however, in trusting ANY motor oil to last 15K miles.
There are two distinct camps here. Those who follow the manufacturers specs, and those who are doing their best to try and argue against doing that. As sure as they are trying to assert that people don't have to follow GM's spec, aren't they also saying that you shouldn't have to follow BMW's? After all it makes no sense for it to work one way, but not the other, does it?
You aren't getting any argument from me. If there is any doubt at all, follow the manufacturer's specifications. I go a step further regarding motor oil, in that I use synthetics in every auto I own, that fully comply with all the specifications listed in the owner's manual.
I avoid the quickie lube joints (and the like) at all cost, and I have imbedded that belief in both my daughters and my wife.
A noble effort, but as they say... "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Most folks couldn't care less about the details until it starts hitting them in the pocketbook.
So I guess GM's aren't having timing chain concerns, nor oil consumption concerns, after all there is no proof that anything bad is happening, right?. These concerns BTW are not limited to GM, but there are a number of forum complaints that can be referenced right here on Edmunds. These problems are real, and they are primarily the result of the use of products that failed to meet the GM specs, and/or service interval issues.
I couldn't say one way or the other, so I'll take your word for it. I do know that, until a clear relationship can be demonstrated to the mass market that they need to use the exacting-specified lubricants, most folks won't care. Again, the existence of quickie-lube oil change shops makes it pretty obvious to me that short term costs savings/time savings mean more to a large segment of auto owners.
Still don't understand why you guys are making the distinction between dealerships and quick lubes? I had a new 2004 Mazda minivan, all oil changes done at dealership, every 4,000 miles. They used 5w-20 Pennzoil. When I took my Buick Regal into dealership for oil change, they used Valvoline 5w-30. Same as what many of quick lubes use.
Really only benefit of quick lubes, are they,well, are quicker. It was $34 for oil change recently done at Valvoline Instant. Hyundai,Kia and Mazda dealerships offer $24 oil changes year thru. So which is better now? :surprise:
I have a reputation for being a stickler for proper maintenance and as a result I have no trouble selling one of my cas. In fact, the ti and Wrangler have a waiting list.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I follow the same regimen; in the case of the Mazdaspeed I change the transaxle fluid every 30,000 miles and the brake fluid every 12 months. In both cases the factory considers the fluids to be "lifetime fills."
Yeah, right...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
OTOH, the whole idea of a quickie lube is to get you in and out quick. It's competitively priced against other quickie lube shops, so anything these places can do to cut costs gets implemented.
While it may not be the order of the day, I've personally seen more than one fast oil change joint staffed by what appeared to be "less than adequately trained" personnel, using the most basic tools such as adjustable wrenches and vice grips to remove/reinstall the drain plug.
Of course, all fast oil change shops aren't the same, so its not fair to lump them together. Personally, I would use them only as a last resort.
A friend of mine watched a quicky lube employee fill a SAAB engine with oil until it overflowed; that was because the guy had pulled the transaxle drain plug...
Another friend was the General Manager of a BMW/Porsche/Audi store. Customers would bring their cars in for service and would swear up and down that they hadn't taken their car to a quicky lube store. The service tech would then take them into the shop and show them where one of the quicky lube crew had stripped out the oil pan drain plug threads and replaced the metal plug with a rubber substitute.
All without telling the customer of course.
No way would I EVER take one of my vehicles there.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I figured that would make sure they got the right fluids (oil and tranny fluid in particular). And if something went wrong, they had all the records (so better chance of out of warranty consideration). Plus the price was comparable.
at least if needed the local place is reputable. Family owned, and the same people for a long time. You even had the owner guy working on the car, and he had a real nice 911 Targa out front! I would consider taking my Integra there if needed.
Sometimes, trying to get to the indy guy (and having to leave the car) just is not workable.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.